[Gauss]

If you haven't watched this video yet, you are missing out, because it's effing hilarious (especially if you like nerdy jokes!)
How to get into Harvard

But in that video, I found a very interesting tidbit

Even when I got rejected by Stanford, I was pretty disappointed and crushed because that was my dream school, but looking back, I realized God had a perfect plan for me.

Then I went to Wikipedia and found

Lin sent his resume and a DVD of highlights to all the Ivy League schools, Cal, Stanford, and his dream school, UCLA.[6] The Pac-10 schools wanted him to walk-on. Harvard and Brown were the only teams that guaranteed him a spot on their basketball teams, but Ivy League schools do not offer athletic scholarships.[7][8] Lin chose to attend Harvard.

Joe Lacob, incoming Warriors' owner and Stanford booster, said Stanford's failure to recruit Lin "was really stupid. The kid was right across the street. You can’t recognize that, [then] you've got a problem."

Hum, that means that he didn't have the academic credentials to go to Stanford outright, and they though he wasn't good enough as an athlete either.

What confuses me slightly is that he ended up going to Harvard, on an academic scholarship. What does that mean? On the face of it it could be that Stanford's academic requirements were tougher, but I guess what it really means is that, even though Harvard doesn't give out athletic scholarships, they do lower the academic requirements for athletes.
Is that right?

Oh, and yes, we should have offered him a scholie. Shucks.
Let's finish the post with another look at the handshake of the year  :D

[Gauss]

If you haven't watched this video yet, you are missing out, because it's effing hilarious (especially if you like nerdy jokes!)
How to get into Harvard

But in that video, I found a very interesting tidbit

Even when I got rejected by Stanford, I was pretty disappointed and crushed because that was my dream school, but looking back, I realized God had a perfect plan for me.

Then I went to Wikipedia and found

Lin sent his resume and a DVD of highlights to all the Ivy League schools, Cal, Stanford, and his dream school, UCLA.[6] The Pac-10 schools wanted him to walk-on. Harvard and Brown were the only teams that guaranteed him a spot on their basketball teams, but Ivy League schools do not offer athletic scholarships.[7][8] Lin chose to attend Harvard.

Joe Lacob, incoming Warriors' owner and Stanford booster, said Stanford's failure to recruit Lin "was really stupid. The kid was right across the street. You can’t recognize that, [then] you've got a problem."

Hum, that means that he didn't have the academic credentials to go to Stanford outright, and they though he wasn't good enough as an athlete either.

What confuses me slightly is that he ended up going to Harvard, on an academic scholarship. What does that mean? On the face of it it could be that Stanford's academic requirements were tougher, but I guess what it really means is that, even though Harvard doesn't give out athletic scholarships, they do lower the academic requirements for athletes.
Is that right?

Oh, and yes, we should have offered him a scholie. Shucks.
Let's finish the post with another look at the handshake of the year  :D

[fullmetal]

I posted similar sentiment a long while ago and was countered with something along the lines of "he didn't have enough talent to warrant a look anyway."  I didn't know he'd been outright rejected academically from Stanford.

[fullmetal]

I posted similar sentiment a long while ago and was countered with something along the lines of "he didn't have enough talent to warrant a look anyway."  I didn't know he'd been outright rejected academically from Stanford.

[doug]

The answer is yes, the Ivies do lower their standards for athletes but probably less than other D-I schools.  I have been watching Ivy sports for a few years now -- I have a daughter who is an athlete at Brown -- and my impression is that the Ivies who lower their standards the most are not the ones you might expect.  Although I don't have hard data, my sense is that Harvard (not all sports but only those they really care about), Yale and Princeton are among the Ivies who care the most about sports and will lower their standards the most (comparing the rest of the student body with athletes).  Brown and Columbia seem to care the least and probably compromise their standards the least, in my opinion.

[doug]

The answer is yes, the Ivies do lower their standards for athletes but probably less than other D-I schools.  I have been watching Ivy sports for a few years now -- I have a daughter who is an athlete at Brown -- and my impression is that the Ivies who lower their standards the most are not the ones you might expect.  Although I don't have hard data, my sense is that Harvard (not all sports but only those they really care about), Yale and Princeton are among the Ivies who care the most about sports and will lower their standards the most (comparing the rest of the student body with athletes).  Brown and Columbia seem to care the least and probably compromise their standards the least, in my opinion.

[jacketree]

What it all means is that he is smart.  Why would anyone necessarily assume this was an academic decision on the part of Stanford?  I think this came up before and what I recall is that this was solely an athletic talent evaluation on the part of Trent Johnson's staff. (Go Mitch! woot?) Athletic evaluations are always easier with hindsight.

[jacketree]

What it all means is that he is smart.  Why would anyone necessarily assume this was an academic decision on the part of Stanford?  I think this came up before and what I recall is that this was solely an athletic talent evaluation on the part of Trent Johnson's staff. (Go Mitch! woot?) Athletic evaluations are always easier with hindsight.

[washingtonismoney]

What it all means is that he is smart.  Why would anyone necessarily assume this was an academic decision on the part of Stanford?  I think this came up before and what I recall is that this was solely an athletic talent evaluation on the part of Trent Johnson's staff. (Go Mitch! woot?) Athletic evaluations are always easier with hindsight.

Can't say much on Jeremy Lin, but Trent Johnson's handling of the point guard situation was monumentally incompetent and cost us a conference championship at the very least, if not a Final Four or Elite Eight appearance. If Jeremy Lin isn't athletic enough, how the hell is Drew Shiller athletic enough?

[washingtonismoney]

What it all means is that he is smart.  Why would anyone necessarily assume this was an academic decision on the part of Stanford?  I think this came up before and what I recall is that this was solely an athletic talent evaluation on the part of Trent Johnson's staff. (Go Mitch! woot?) Athletic evaluations are always easier with hindsight.

Can't say much on Jeremy Lin, but Trent Johnson's handling of the point guard situation was monumentally incompetent and cost us a conference championship at the very least, if not a Final Four or Elite Eight appearance. If Jeremy Lin isn't athletic enough, how the hell is Drew Shiller athletic enough?

[Hank 91]

I think my favorite part of the Trent Johnson debacle was when he claimed in his LSU presser that it was tough dealing with Stanford's academic standards and the resulting talent gap. You know, because he had to make due with only one set of twin seven-footers. Such a jackass.

[Hank 91]

I think my favorite part of the Trent Johnson debacle was when he claimed in his LSU presser that it was tough dealing with Stanford's academic standards and the resulting talent gap. You know, because he had to make due with only one set of twin seven-footers. Such a jackass.

[Roberton3]

What confuses me slightly is that he ended up going to Harvard, on an academic scholarship. What does that mean? On the face of it it could be that Stanford's academic requirements were tougher, but I guess what it really means is that, even though Harvard doesn't give out athletic scholarships, they do lower the academic requirements for athletes.
Is that right?

Lin didn't get an academic scholarship.  Harvard doesn't give academic scholarships.  It gives need-based financial aid, which some people mistakenly label as an "academic scholarship".  But it's based on financial need, not on academic ability (though given what tuition is like these days, even middle-class families get need-based financial aid).  I think it's pretty similar to financial aid for non-athletes at Stanford.

And yes, the bar is definitely lower for getting in to Harvard if you're an athlete, though that varies a lot from sport to sport.  In sports like football, basketball, and hockey, it's a pretty substantial edge.  But that's true pretty much everywhere, from the big sports powerhouse state universities to the Ivy League to academically elite liberal arts schools playing in Division III leagues.

[Roberton3]

What confuses me slightly is that he ended up going to Harvard, on an academic scholarship. What does that mean? On the face of it it could be that Stanford's academic requirements were tougher, but I guess what it really means is that, even though Harvard doesn't give out athletic scholarships, they do lower the academic requirements for athletes.
Is that right?

Lin didn't get an academic scholarship.  Harvard doesn't give academic scholarships.  It gives need-based financial aid, which some people mistakenly label as an "academic scholarship".  But it's based on financial need, not on academic ability (though given what tuition is like these days, even middle-class families get need-based financial aid).  I think it's pretty similar to financial aid for non-athletes at Stanford.

And yes, the bar is definitely lower for getting in to Harvard if you're an athlete, though that varies a lot from sport to sport.  In sports like football, basketball, and hockey, it's a pretty substantial edge.  But that's true pretty much everywhere, from the big sports powerhouse state universities to the Ivy League to academically elite liberal arts schools playing in Division III leagues.

[Roberton3]

The answer is yes, the Ivies do lower their standards for athletes but probably less than other D-I schools.  I have been watching Ivy sports for a few years now -- I have a daughter who is an athlete at Brown -- and my impression is that the Ivies who lower their standards the most are not the ones you might expect.  Although I don't have hard data, my sense is that Harvard (not all sports but only those they really care about), Yale and Princeton are among the Ivies who care the most about sports and will lower their standards the most (comparing the rest of the student body with athletes).  Brown and Columbia seem to care the least and probably compromise their standards the least, in my opinion.

I'd agree that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton probably have the biggest gaps between athletes (in key sports) and the rest of the student body.  But I wouldn't say that's because they care more about sports than the rest of the Ivies.  It's just that those are the Ivies that are academically strongest (and thus have the highest admission standards), so in order to be competitive in sports, they have to have a bigger gap between athletes and everyone else.  My sense is that the academic standard for getting in as an athlete is fairly similar across the Ivy schools, while the standard for getting in as a non-athlete varies a lot more (it's difficult everywhere, but substantially more difficult at H, Y, and P than at the others).

[Roberton3]

The answer is yes, the Ivies do lower their standards for athletes but probably less than other D-I schools.  I have been watching Ivy sports for a few years now -- I have a daughter who is an athlete at Brown -- and my impression is that the Ivies who lower their standards the most are not the ones you might expect.  Although I don't have hard data, my sense is that Harvard (not all sports but only those they really care about), Yale and Princeton are among the Ivies who care the most about sports and will lower their standards the most (comparing the rest of the student body with athletes).  Brown and Columbia seem to care the least and probably compromise their standards the least, in my opinion.

I'd agree that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton probably have the biggest gaps between athletes (in key sports) and the rest of the student body.  But I wouldn't say that's because they care more about sports than the rest of the Ivies.  It's just that those are the Ivies that are academically strongest (and thus have the highest admission standards), so in order to be competitive in sports, they have to have a bigger gap between athletes and everyone else.  My sense is that the academic standard for getting in as an athlete is fairly similar across the Ivy schools, while the standard for getting in as a non-athlete varies a lot more (it's difficult everywhere, but substantially more difficult at H, Y, and P than at the others).

[Nan3cy]

Harvard has need-based rather than academic scholarships, but from what I have heard, their definition of "need" is adjusted somewhat for athletes they really want. (That may have changed with the expansion of need-based financial aid, but somehow I tend to doubt it.) And I expect the other Ivies follow suit, to the extent they can.

[Nan3cy]

Harvard has need-based rather than academic scholarships, but from what I have heard, their definition of "need" is adjusted somewhat for athletes they really want. (That may have changed with the expansion of need-based financial aid, but somehow I tend to doubt it.) And I expect the other Ivies follow suit, to the extent they can.

[washingtonismoney]

I think my favorite part of the Trent Johnson debacle was when he claimed in his LSU presser that it was tough dealing with Stanford's academic standards and the resulting talent gap. You know, because he had to make due with only one set of twin seven-footers. Such a jackass.

Also loved that he threw Mitch Johnson under a bus so large it could carry an entire school district. No one made you take Mitch Johnson, Da'Veed Dildy and Drew Shiller, Trent.

[washingtonismoney]

I think my favorite part of the Trent Johnson debacle was when he claimed in his LSU presser that it was tough dealing with Stanford's academic standards and the resulting talent gap. You know, because he had to make due with only one set of twin seven-footers. Such a jackass.

Also loved that he threw Mitch Johnson under a bus so large it could carry an entire school district. No one made you take Mitch Johnson, Da'Veed Dildy and Drew Shiller, Trent.

[fullmetal]

A lot of athletes at Ivy League schools get these "academic" scholarships.  Yup.  And grants, etc.

[fullmetal]

A lot of athletes at Ivy League schools get these "academic" scholarships.  Yup.  And grants, etc.

[LuckE2Bhere]

Based on what I've heard (in a very blatant example of abuse from a relatively close second-hand source), Nan3cy's exactly right... highly sought-after athletes of significant means are often offered "need based", "non-athletic" scholarships in sports like hockey, if that's what certain Ivy's think it will take to land them.  Strikes me as a distinction without a difference (it's just less common than those who admit they are giving athletic scholarships).

I don't know how "sought after" Doug's daughter was, or how high profile that sport is or isn't at Brown, but I'd be curious if he was able to discern any extra generosity on that front?

[LuckE2Bhere]

Based on what I've heard (in a very blatant example of abuse from a relatively close second-hand source), Nan3cy's exactly right... highly sought-after athletes of significant means are often offered "need based", "non-athletic" scholarships in sports like hockey, if that's what certain Ivy's think it will take to land them.  Strikes me as a distinction without a difference (it's just less common than those who admit they are giving athletic scholarships).

I don't know how "sought after" Doug's daughter was, or how high profile that sport is or isn't at Brown, but I'd be curious if he was able to discern any extra generosity on that front?

[Gauss]

Thanks everybody. The consensus is that Harvard lowers the requirements for athletes.
I was confused because if going to Stanford was really his dream, he could have applied as a regular student (and try to play as a walk-on). But I guess if you really want to play basketball, you don't do that unless the coaches show more than fake interest.

By the way, there is a good article in the NYT about Lin's recruiting. With Lin literally playing across the street from Stanford, Harvard got nervous at the end

The Harvard coaches privately worried that Stanford, which could not help monitoring Lin because he lived and played so close by, would offer him a scholarship during his senior year. Their anxiety was heightened after Lin scored 17 points — and made a crucial 25-foot bank shot with just over two minutes left — to lead Palo Alto to a stunning 51-47 victory over Mater Dei. Yet Stanford did not increase its pursuit. And Lin picked Harvard.

The miss by Stanford is slightly frustrating, but this is such a feel-good story  ;D
It is sad that it seems that he was overlooked, at least in part, for being of Asian descent. But on the other hand, now it'll be an asset for him, for the Knicks and the NBA, and he'll make it easier for future Asian-American standouts to be recognized.
That's pretty cool.

[Gauss]

Thanks everybody. The consensus is that Harvard lowers the requirements for athletes.
I was confused because if going to Stanford was really his dream, he could have applied as a regular student (and try to play as a walk-on). But I guess if you really want to play basketball, you don't do that unless the coaches show more than fake interest.

By the way, there is a good article in the NYT about Lin's recruiting. With Lin literally playing across the street from Stanford, Harvard got nervous at the end

The Harvard coaches privately worried that Stanford, which could not help monitoring Lin because he lived and played so close by, would offer him a scholarship during his senior year. Their anxiety was heightened after Lin scored 17 points — and made a crucial 25-foot bank shot with just over two minutes left — to lead Palo Alto to a stunning 51-47 victory over Mater Dei. Yet Stanford did not increase its pursuit. And Lin picked Harvard.

The miss by Stanford is slightly frustrating, but this is such a feel-good story  ;D
It is sad that it seems that he was overlooked, at least in part, for being of Asian descent. But on the other hand, now it'll be an asset for him, for the Knicks and the NBA, and he'll make it easier for future Asian-American standouts to be recognized.
That's pretty cool.

[Roberton3]

Based on what I've heard (in a very blatant example of abuse from a relatively close second-hand source), Nan3cy's exactly right... highly sought-after athletes of significant means are often offered "need based", "non-athletic" scholarships in sports like hockey, if that's what certain Ivy's think it will take to land them.  Strikes me as a distinction without a difference (it's just less common than those who admit they are giving athletic scholarships).

I don't know how "sought after" Doug's daughter was, or how high profile that sport is or isn't at Brown, but I'd be curious if he was able to discern any extra generosity on that front?

I can't say this never happens.  But I was a varsity athlete as an undergrad at Harvard (albeit a walk-on in a low-profile sport) and knew a bunch of other varsity athletes there (many of whom were heavily recruited in higher-profile sports), and I've never heard of a case where a Harvard athlete got financial aid on different terms than he/she would have as a non-athlete.  Moreover, I've heard fans and parents push a coach to try this kind of thing, and the coach responded by explaining that this simply wasn't an option -- that it would be against Ivy League rules and that the financial aid office would never allow it.  Of course, I can't prove beyond any doubt that this doesn't happen.  But I would be hugely surprised if anything like that is going on (in the same way that I can't prove that Stanford boosters aren't paying top football recruits under the table, but I'd be hugely surprised if they are).

[Roberton3]

Based on what I've heard (in a very blatant example of abuse from a relatively close second-hand source), Nan3cy's exactly right... highly sought-after athletes of significant means are often offered "need based", "non-athletic" scholarships in sports like hockey, if that's what certain Ivy's think it will take to land them.  Strikes me as a distinction without a difference (it's just less common than those who admit they are giving athletic scholarships).

I don't know how "sought after" Doug's daughter was, or how high profile that sport is or isn't at Brown, but I'd be curious if he was able to discern any extra generosity on that front?

I can't say this never happens.  But I was a varsity athlete as an undergrad at Harvard (albeit a walk-on in a low-profile sport) and knew a bunch of other varsity athletes there (many of whom were heavily recruited in higher-profile sports), and I've never heard of a case where a Harvard athlete got financial aid on different terms than he/she would have as a non-athlete.  Moreover, I've heard fans and parents push a coach to try this kind of thing, and the coach responded by explaining that this simply wasn't an option -- that it would be against Ivy League rules and that the financial aid office would never allow it.  Of course, I can't prove beyond any doubt that this doesn't happen.  But I would be hugely surprised if anything like that is going on (in the same way that I can't prove that Stanford boosters aren't paying top football recruits under the table, but I'd be hugely surprised if they are).

[fullmetal]

I wonder if the Winklevoss twins got any aid as athletes.  Also, I'm curious as to how international athletes are funded at Harvard--surely not all of them pay their own way?  And as international athletes, they wouldn't be eligible for FAFSA aid.

[fullmetal]

I wonder if the Winklevoss twins got any aid as athletes.  Also, I'm curious as to how international athletes are funded at Harvard--surely not all of them pay their own way?  And as international athletes, they wouldn't be eligible for FAFSA aid.

[Roberton3]

I wonder if the Winklevoss twins got any aid as athletes.  Also, I'm curious as to how international athletes are funded at Harvard--surely not all of them pay their own way?  And as international athletes, they wouldn't be eligible for FAFSA aid.

At Harvard, financial aid is the same for foreign students as for US students.  They don't fill out a FAFSA, but they provide the same information to the financial aid office.  As with US students, admissions is need-blind, and financial aid is entirely need-based.  I would guess the same is true at Stanford.

As for the Winklevosses (Winklevi?), if their pre-Facebook wealth has been accurately depicted, then I'm sure they didn't get financial aid.  But I'd also be very surprised if they paid any attention to the price when choosing a school.

[Roberton3]

I wonder if the Winklevoss twins got any aid as athletes.  Also, I'm curious as to how international athletes are funded at Harvard--surely not all of them pay their own way?  And as international athletes, they wouldn't be eligible for FAFSA aid.

At Harvard, financial aid is the same for foreign students as for US students.  They don't fill out a FAFSA, but they provide the same information to the financial aid office.  As with US students, admissions is need-blind, and financial aid is entirely need-based.  I would guess the same is true at Stanford.

As for the Winklevosses (Winklevi?), if their pre-Facebook wealth has been accurately depicted, then I'm sure they didn't get financial aid.  But I'd also be very surprised if they paid any attention to the price when choosing a school.