[ChicagoCard]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo...be-banned/

Citing risk factors with chronic brain encephalopathy (think I got that right), he is looking for a major program to drop football. It seemed he singled out Stanford but I only gave it an initial read on my phone.

[ChicagoCard]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo...be-banned/

Citing risk factors with chronic brain encephalopathy (think I got that right), he is looking for a major program to drop football. It seemed he singled out Stanford but I only gave it an initial read on my phone.

[oman]

Sounds like it will likely end up where Malcolm is proposing.  Just a matter of time.

[oman]

Sounds like it will likely end up where Malcolm is proposing.  Just a matter of time.

[dabigv13]

From looking at his picture you really get the sense that dude grew up loving football.

But seriously, the human experience is full of really dumb things that we do because we enjoy them. If the purpose of society was to maximize every human's time on this earth, then a lot of things would be out the window. Alcohol is an easy one, it certainly kills many many more people than football does.

I think if football players, and their families in the case of Pop Warner and high school football, are made aware of the risks as they are known, there is nothing morally wrong with the sport of college football.

[dabigv13]

From looking at his picture you really get the sense that dude grew up loving football.

But seriously, the human experience is full of really dumb things that we do because we enjoy them. If the purpose of society was to maximize every human's time on this earth, then a lot of things would be out the window. Alcohol is an easy one, it certainly kills many many more people than football does.

I think if football players, and their families in the case of Pop Warner and high school football, are made aware of the risks as they are known, there is nothing morally wrong with the sport of college football.

[stupac2]

Also, isn't he seriously overstating the risk? Or, at least, making his case with far more certainty than is warranted. I was under the impression (which could be wrong) that a lot of the study of this stuff was in its infancy, and we really don't know that much. He's making it sound like everyone who plays football is going to get this disease and die, but that's certainly not the case. It's also not clear at all if the rule changes with safety in mind have worked, because it takes decades for this to become apparent.

Anyway, I continue to be completely underwhelmed with Gladwell as a thinker. How he managed to get this level of popularity is beyond me.

[stupac2]

Also, isn't he seriously overstating the risk? Or, at least, making his case with far more certainty than is warranted. I was under the impression (which could be wrong) that a lot of the study of this stuff was in its infancy, and we really don't know that much. He's making it sound like everyone who plays football is going to get this disease and die, but that's certainly not the case. It's also not clear at all if the rule changes with safety in mind have worked, because it takes decades for this to become apparent.

Anyway, I continue to be completely underwhelmed with Gladwell as a thinker. How he managed to get this level of popularity is beyond me.

[ChicagoCard]

There was something not quite right about his dog fighting analogy. Well, "on a certain level" he says.

[ChicagoCard]

There was something not quite right about his dog fighting analogy. Well, "on a certain level" he says.

[stupac2]

There was something not quite right about his dog fighting analogy. Well, "on a certain level" he says.

Yeah, that was about as apt as the people who compare working for a wage to slavery. At least something like that is a convenient notification that you don't need to take the person's views seriously.

[stupac2]

There was something not quite right about his dog fighting analogy. Well, "on a certain level" he says.

Yeah, that was about as apt as the people who compare working for a wage to slavery. At least something like that is a convenient notification that you don't need to take the person's views seriously.

[Bruce Wang]

What do you expect?  The guy went to the University of Toronto aka the Kal of Canada.

[Bruce Wang]

What do you expect?  The guy went to the University of Toronto aka the Kal of Canada.

[PrinceLightfoot]

Also, isn't he seriously overstating the risk?

It wouldn't receive as much attention if he didn't overstate the risk. In my completely unsubstantiated opinion, this is more about Gladwell marketing himself and his soon to be released books. The conclusions made are much too soon given the length of current studies. The economist/statistician in me would love to see all the data available instead of what Gladwell is choosing to cite.

[PrinceLightfoot]

Also, isn't he seriously overstating the risk?

It wouldn't receive as much attention if he didn't overstate the risk. In my completely unsubstantiated opinion, this is more about Gladwell marketing himself and his soon to be released books. The conclusions made are much too soon given the length of current studies. The economist/statistician in me would love to see all the data available instead of what Gladwell is choosing to cite.

[TreeWeird]

What do you expect?  The guy went to the University of Toronto aka the Kal of Canada.

Think he'll make the same argument for abolishing hockey?

[TreeWeird]

What do you expect?  The guy went to the University of Toronto aka the Kal of Canada.

Think he'll make the same argument for abolishing hockey?

[Roberton3]

[quote author=Publius link=topic=8126.msg64601#msg64601 date=1374536139]
What do you expect?  The guy went to the University of Toronto aka the Kal of Canada.

Think he'll make the same argument for abolishing hockey?
[/quote]

If it'll sell books, then yes.

[Roberton3]

[quote author=Publius link=topic=8126.msg64601#msg64601 date=1374536139]
What do you expect?  The guy went to the University of Toronto aka the Kal of Canada.

Think he'll make the same argument for abolishing hockey?
[/quote]

If it'll sell books, then yes.

[Farm93]

The Stanford reference was more flattering than implied so far.

On CNN he stated his belief is that Harvard or Yale will need to drop football to really make programs question their support of the sport.  Then he noted that the real key domino would be Stanford.  Stanford is successful at football AND has donations that are clearly not tied to football success.  The logic would be that our biggest donors could ethically object to donating if Stanford continued with football and the donations could be meaningful enough to stop football.  And then if mighty Stanford made that ethical call, then others likely would make the call too.

Most FBS schools do not get enough non-football donations to be first movers, so it was a compliment to be identified as THE likely key domino for his vision of the end of football.

Once upon a time boxing was an NCAA sport.  It really could happen to football too.  Gladwell's perspective on the end of football was probably the more gentle version.  An alternate reality could come about if former college athletes that never played in the NFL start to sue the NCAA and the schools.  I have no idea what kind of liability coverage Stanford and the Pac-12 have, but I can imagine the daytime litigation ads now.

[Farm93]

The Stanford reference was more flattering than implied so far.

On CNN he stated his belief is that Harvard or Yale will need to drop football to really make programs question their support of the sport.  Then he noted that the real key domino would be Stanford.  Stanford is successful at football AND has donations that are clearly not tied to football success.  The logic would be that our biggest donors could ethically object to donating if Stanford continued with football and the donations could be meaningful enough to stop football.  And then if mighty Stanford made that ethical call, then others likely would make the call too.

Most FBS schools do not get enough non-football donations to be first movers, so it was a compliment to be identified as THE likely key domino for his vision of the end of football.

Once upon a time boxing was an NCAA sport.  It really could happen to football too.  Gladwell's perspective on the end of football was probably the more gentle version.  An alternate reality could come about if former college athletes that never played in the NFL start to sue the NCAA and the schools.  I have no idea what kind of liability coverage Stanford and the Pac-12 have, but I can imagine the daytime litigation ads now.

[oman]

I think if football players, and their families in the case of Pop Warner and high school football, are made aware of the risks as they are known, there is nothing morally wrong with the sport of college football.

That might be true if colleges didn't use a form of bribery to get the students to assume the risk.

[oman]

I think if football players, and their families in the case of Pop Warner and high school football, are made aware of the risks as they are known, there is nothing morally wrong with the sport of college football.

That might be true if colleges didn't use a form of bribery to get the students to assume the risk.

[CowboyIndian]

That might be true if colleges didn't use a form of bribery to get the students to assume the risk.

Strikes me as the same kind of bribe that blue-collar workers and soldiers accept every day for doing risky jobs that society values. And that's going to continue as long as young people feel bulletproof....and are poor or in need of a subsidized education or both.

[CowboyIndian]

That might be true if colleges didn't use a form of bribery to get the students to assume the risk.

Strikes me as the same kind of bribe that blue-collar workers and soldiers accept every day for doing risky jobs that society values. And that's going to continue as long as young people feel bulletproof....and are poor or in need of a subsidized education or both.

[akiddoc]

From looking at his picture you really get the sense that dude grew up loving football.

But seriously, the human experience is full of really dumb things that we do because we enjoy them. If the purpose of society was to maximize every human's time on this earth, then a lot of things would be out the window. Alcohol is an easy one, it certainly kills many many more people than football does.

I think if football players, and their families in the case of Pop Warner and high school football, are made aware of the risks as they are known, there is nothing morally wrong with the sport of college football.

There is no way that kids at the Pop Warner level can understand the risks they are taking, and their parents should not be gambling with their brains. Tackle football prior to high school should be banned.

[akiddoc]

From looking at his picture you really get the sense that dude grew up loving football.

But seriously, the human experience is full of really dumb things that we do because we enjoy them. If the purpose of society was to maximize every human's time on this earth, then a lot of things would be out the window. Alcohol is an easy one, it certainly kills many many more people than football does.

I think if football players, and their families in the case of Pop Warner and high school football, are made aware of the risks as they are known, there is nothing morally wrong with the sport of college football.

There is no way that kids at the Pop Warner level can understand the risks they are taking, and their parents should not be gambling with their brains. Tackle football prior to high school should be banned.

[Redrum]

I've enjoyed most of his writing.  He's right.  Stanford is about leadership and should use this opportunity to lead the nation nation to take up Sarcastaball

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/k9a8o3/how-about-we-call-it-sarcastaball

[Redrum]

I've enjoyed most of his writing.  He's right.  Stanford is about leadership and should use this opportunity to lead the nation nation to take up Sarcastaball

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/k9a8o3/how-about-we-call-it-sarcastaball

[oman]

Strikes me as the same kind of bribe that blue-collar workers and soldiers accept every day for doing risky jobs that society values. And that's going to continue as long as young people feel bulletproof....and are poor or in need of a subsidized education or both.

No doubt.  The question is whether you want to be part of those specific bribes.

You can say most people prostitute themselves in some way.  Most of us don't accept those kinds of risks. 

Universities tend to be at the forefront of protests against money spent on things that put some person in harm's way.  I would think that at some point a non-major school will drop football, and maybe this is cited as part of the reason.  I could see it gaining some popularity among those who have never been fans of the sport.

[oman]

Strikes me as the same kind of bribe that blue-collar workers and soldiers accept every day for doing risky jobs that society values. And that's going to continue as long as young people feel bulletproof....and are poor or in need of a subsidized education or both.

No doubt.  The question is whether you want to be part of those specific bribes.

You can say most people prostitute themselves in some way.  Most of us don't accept those kinds of risks. 

Universities tend to be at the forefront of protests against money spent on things that put some person in harm's way.  I would think that at some point a non-major school will drop football, and maybe this is cited as part of the reason.  I could see it gaining some popularity among those who have never been fans of the sport.

[Leftcoast]

Uh .... I guess I'll stick up for youth football. 

My son played Pop Warner in 4th And 5th grade and will be on a frosh high school team this year.  I'm way more worried about the high speed, asymmetrical high school collisions than the low speed, evenly weight matched collisions I saw in Pop Warner.

Pop Warner was a great experience for him and his league had several ex-Stanford players on the coaching roster.  He's not an NCAA caliber prospect but as a fairly athletic lineman he enjoyed his chance to contribute and be part of a highly successful team that encouraged discipline, hard work and achieving goals.  The work level and physical training was far more intense than he saw in years of mid-level AYSO soccer and he loved the challenge.  All of this may sound too earnest for these ironic times but as a parent of a teen that's seen several of his ex-friends make poor life decisions I still see real value to be had in football for my son.

One under realized value of football is that there are a large number of roles and roster spots for all body types making football the most democratic sport on most high school campuses.  More kids letter in football than any other high school sport - it's not even close.

So, yeah, I worry about any sport where the league requires an ambulance at every game and wonder about the ratcheting up of risk levels as players move from Pop Warner to High School, college and the NFL but aren't you glad that a sport that produces an Andrew Luck or David Castro still has a spot on the youth sport scene?

[Leftcoast]

Uh .... I guess I'll stick up for youth football. 

My son played Pop Warner in 4th And 5th grade and will be on a frosh high school team this year.  I'm way more worried about the high speed, asymmetrical high school collisions than the low speed, evenly weight matched collisions I saw in Pop Warner.

Pop Warner was a great experience for him and his league had several ex-Stanford players on the coaching roster.  He's not an NCAA caliber prospect but as a fairly athletic lineman he enjoyed his chance to contribute and be part of a highly successful team that encouraged discipline, hard work and achieving goals.  The work level and physical training was far more intense than he saw in years of mid-level AYSO soccer and he loved the challenge.  All of this may sound too earnest for these ironic times but as a parent of a teen that's seen several of his ex-friends make poor life decisions I still see real value to be had in football for my son.

One under realized value of football is that there are a large number of roles and roster spots for all body types making football the most democratic sport on most high school campuses.  More kids letter in football than any other high school sport - it's not even close.

So, yeah, I worry about any sport where the league requires an ambulance at every game and wonder about the ratcheting up of risk levels as players move from Pop Warner to High School, college and the NFL but aren't you glad that a sport that produces an Andrew Luck or David Castro still has a spot on the youth sport scene?

[fullmetal]

Luck and DeCastro are perhaps the lucky ones who emerged unscathed to shine on the big stages.  For every superstar we see, there are countless others who didn't make it and remain out of sight.

[fullmetal]

Luck and DeCastro are perhaps the lucky ones who emerged unscathed to shine on the big stages.  For every superstar we see, there are countless others who didn't make it and remain out of sight.

[JohnR34231]

Hey, life is risky.

To each his own, but as my father used to say I would rather have my son on the football field after school than I would out riding a motorcycle.

Anyway, I'll make the decisions as to whether I play football or not. Same with members of my family. I don't need the Malcolm Gladwells of this world to make them for me.

I really don't think the kids in Pop Warner football hit hard enough to do that much damage. I don't think I ever saw a concussion (although my son did manage to break his wrist).

I will say this. If my kids had been good enough to play in the NFL (they weren't) I wouldn't have encouraged them to play beyond 2-3 years.

[JohnR34231]

Hey, life is risky.

To each his own, but as my father used to say I would rather have my son on the football field after school than I would out riding a motorcycle.

Anyway, I'll make the decisions as to whether I play football or not. Same with members of my family. I don't need the Malcolm Gladwells of this world to make them for me.

I really don't think the kids in Pop Warner football hit hard enough to do that much damage. I don't think I ever saw a concussion (although my son did manage to break his wrist).

I will say this. If my kids had been good enough to play in the NFL (they weren't) I wouldn't have encouraged them to play beyond 2-3 years.

[socalstanfan1]

Ok, I'm going to stick up for Gladwell (sort of; how's that for being bold).

While Gladwell may be premature in his suggestion, I think this is a totally healthy conversation that Universities, especially, should be having at some point, if reliable research begins to pile up indicating extensive long-term brain injuries in football players.  I say Universities have a greater responsibility to have this conversation because, ideally, they are places where we encourage people to consider things like ethical behavior and responsibility. Now, such matters should be considered throughout society, and I'm not naive enough to think that universities are not heavily influenced by money considerations, but I am idealistic enough to think we should be bold enough to consider things that are unpopular.  We do live in a democracy where the (relatively) free marketplace of ideas still holds (I write this while sitting in a Starbucks in China, btw), so I'm happy to see both Gladwell's suggestion and the passionate response.

I also confess to my own hypocrisy. While I follow college football avidly, I'm also troubled by the way it is used simply as a free minor-league by the NFL, and I would not be all that troubled if, at the least, the NFL were required to pony up some cash for a farm system. I think universities in general compromise themselves far too often in their pursuit of academic glory (and one of the reasons I've always felt good pulli g for Stanford was the sense of integrity it has always maintained in this area). An NFL farm system would provide a chance for those who love football and see it as a career path, but who otherwise have no real inclination to college, to have an alternative pathway. It would likely go a long way towards curtailing so many of the ethical problems created by the enormous sums of money coursing through the NCAA. But that's not Gladwell's issue, so I guess I've climbed up on a soap box.

[socalstanfan1]

Ok, I'm going to stick up for Gladwell (sort of; how's that for being bold).

While Gladwell may be premature in his suggestion, I think this is a totally healthy conversation that Universities, especially, should be having at some point, if reliable research begins to pile up indicating extensive long-term brain injuries in football players.  I say Universities have a greater responsibility to have this conversation because, ideally, they are places where we encourage people to consider things like ethical behavior and responsibility. Now, such matters should be considered throughout society, and I'm not naive enough to think that universities are not heavily influenced by money considerations, but I am idealistic enough to think we should be bold enough to consider things that are unpopular.  We do live in a democracy where the (relatively) free marketplace of ideas still holds (I write this while sitting in a Starbucks in China, btw), so I'm happy to see both Gladwell's suggestion and the passionate response.

I also confess to my own hypocrisy. While I follow college football avidly, I'm also troubled by the way it is used simply as a free minor-league by the NFL, and I would not be all that troubled if, at the least, the NFL were required to pony up some cash for a farm system. I think universities in general compromise themselves far too often in their pursuit of academic glory (and one of the reasons I've always felt good pulli g for Stanford was the sense of integrity it has always maintained in this area). An NFL farm system would provide a chance for those who love football and see it as a career path, but who otherwise have no real inclination to college, to have an alternative pathway. It would likely go a long way towards curtailing so many of the ethical problems created by the enormous sums of money coursing through the NCAA. But that's not Gladwell's issue, so I guess I've climbed up on a soap box.