[Leftcoast]

With apologies to Herschel Walker, Elway was the most exciting player of his generation.  With a howitzer for a right arm and the ability to elude would-be tacklers 15-20 yards behind the line of scrimmage broken plays were commonly converted for long yardage ... or not. Yes, he was a gambler who took big risks (a tendency he had to unlearn in the NFL) but those risks kept a less than mediocre, defense deprived Paul Wiggin coached team relevant and interesting. 

Should our quibble 30 years later be with Elway's dynamic offense or with that early 80s defense that would get even odds that a reasonably strong wind would score against it? 

I do not have a problem with seeing his number retired.

[Leftcoast]

With apologies to Herschel Walker, Elway was the most exciting player of his generation.  With a howitzer for a right arm and the ability to elude would-be tacklers 15-20 yards behind the line of scrimmage broken plays were commonly converted for long yardage ... or not. Yes, he was a gambler who took big risks (a tendency he had to unlearn in the NFL) but those risks kept a less than mediocre, defense deprived Paul Wiggin coached team relevant and interesting. 

Should our quibble 30 years later be with Elway's dynamic offense or with that early 80s defense that would get even odds that a reasonably strong wind would score against it? 

I do not have a problem with seeing his number retired.

[pefloresjr]

I have to agree with those who think his number should be retired.  I love Toby and even grew up less than 10 miles from Norco, but retiring #7 for Elway should be decided on its own merits.  I agree that Elway was the most exciting player of his time and had a big impact on Stanford by keeping the team in the limelight even though the overall team results were not that great.  Yes Elway was a part of that, but the offense was not usually Stanford's problem at the time.  Elway acted like an entitled brat at times and some people just don't like him, but he was a tremendous football player.  He has regularly returned to Stanford in recent years and now seems like a pretty good representative of the university. 

Cheers,
Pete F. 

[pefloresjr]

I have to agree with those who think his number should be retired.  I love Toby and even grew up less than 10 miles from Norco, but retiring #7 for Elway should be decided on its own merits.  I agree that Elway was the most exciting player of his time and had a big impact on Stanford by keeping the team in the limelight even though the overall team results were not that great.  Yes Elway was a part of that, but the offense was not usually Stanford's problem at the time.  Elway acted like an entitled brat at times and some people just don't like him, but he was a tremendous football player.  He has regularly returned to Stanford in recent years and now seems like a pretty good representative of the university. 

Cheers,
Pete F. 

[FarmBoy]

Is part of the delay in having his jersey retired the fact that he was (rumored?) estranged from the university after the way the school treated his dad as coach? I thought I read during the 2010 season that Elway was just starting to get back tied into the school with the Orange Bowl being the first time he was on the sidelines for a game.

[FarmBoy]

Is part of the delay in having his jersey retired the fact that he was (rumored?) estranged from the university after the way the school treated his dad as coach? I thought I read during the 2010 season that Elway was just starting to get back tied into the school with the Orange Bowl being the first time he was on the sidelines for a game.

[Embo]

Is part of the delay in having his jersey retired the fact that he was (rumored?) estranged from the university after the way the school treated his dad as coach?

That was no rumor.  Elway had been quoted as describing President Donald Kennedy and AD Andy Geiger - the two he felt responsible for his father's firing - as "those two clowns".  It was only after both had left (Geiger in 1990, Kennedy stepped down in 1992) that the thaw began.  I did read that John and his family were in one of the press box suites for Big Game 1999 to see the clinching of the Rose Bowl berth.  He was also frequently in the stands to see his daughter Jessica and the rest of the WBB team during March Madness. 

[Embo]

Is part of the delay in having his jersey retired the fact that he was (rumored?) estranged from the university after the way the school treated his dad as coach?

That was no rumor.  Elway had been quoted as describing President Donald Kennedy and AD Andy Geiger - the two he felt responsible for his father's firing - as "those two clowns".  It was only after both had left (Geiger in 1990, Kennedy stepped down in 1992) that the thaw began.  I did read that John and his family were in one of the press box suites for Big Game 1999 to see the clinching of the Rose Bowl berth.  He was also frequently in the stands to see his daughter Jessica and the rest of the WBB team during March Madness. 

[pincemob]

Toby deserves to have his number retired, and maybe Stanford can figure out a clever way to do that.  I could envision two number 7's "hanging in the rafters" with the different names on them to honor both guys. 

One point in defense of Elway:  I believe he committed to Walsh, but when Walsh left he ended up playing for Dowhower and Wiggin (both defensive guys and not exactly hall of famers).  Toby had the opposite luck, he committed to Walt Harris and then played 3 years for a guy I am pretty sure will be in the HOF.  If Toby had played for Teevens and Harris, we would probably not be having this discussion. 

As for his Dad's firing, I was told that a player revolt is what caused the coaching change (some of the guys did not like the offense Elway was planning to run).  I could see why that caused hard feelings.  Now here is some trivia for you.. after being fired at Stanford, Jack Elway was hired by none other than Oliver Luck, then GM of the Frankfurt Galaxy where he went 7-3 in 1991 behind former SJSU QB Mike Perez.  They had an exciting offense and had the highest attendance in that league.  A year later the league ceased, Luck left, and the new GM hired a different coach when the league resumed.  I would not be surprised if behind the scenes Oliver & Andrew Luck had something to do with Elway's increasing presence around the program. 

[pincemob]

Toby deserves to have his number retired, and maybe Stanford can figure out a clever way to do that.  I could envision two number 7's "hanging in the rafters" with the different names on them to honor both guys. 

One point in defense of Elway:  I believe he committed to Walsh, but when Walsh left he ended up playing for Dowhower and Wiggin (both defensive guys and not exactly hall of famers).  Toby had the opposite luck, he committed to Walt Harris and then played 3 years for a guy I am pretty sure will be in the HOF.  If Toby had played for Teevens and Harris, we would probably not be having this discussion. 

As for his Dad's firing, I was told that a player revolt is what caused the coaching change (some of the guys did not like the offense Elway was planning to run).  I could see why that caused hard feelings.  Now here is some trivia for you.. after being fired at Stanford, Jack Elway was hired by none other than Oliver Luck, then GM of the Frankfurt Galaxy where he went 7-3 in 1991 behind former SJSU QB Mike Perez.  They had an exciting offense and had the highest attendance in that league.  A year later the league ceased, Luck left, and the new GM hired a different coach when the league resumed.  I would not be surprised if behind the scenes Oliver & Andrew Luck had something to do with Elway's increasing presence around the program. 

[81alum]

It would be a real shame if the decision to honor Elway is taken as a sleight to Toby.  As others have said, each should be judged on his own merits, and a way should be found to honor both.  Personally, I wish they would consider the honor for Nelson, too. 

One point in defense of Elway:  I believe he committed to Walsh, but when Walsh left he ended up playing for Dowhower and Wiggin (both defensive guys and not exactly hall of famers).  Toby had the opposite luck, he committed to Wlat Idiotface and then played 3 years for a guy I am pretty sure will be in the HOF.  If Toby had played for Teevens and Harris, we would probably not be having this discussion. 

In general a good point, and I agree with your post.  But while you are right that Dowhower was a disappointment, he was not a defensive coach.  He was the offensive coordinator under Walsh before Walsh left for the first time.  Before that he was an offensive coordinator at Boise State and got his start in coaching under  Don "Air" Coryell.  I remember how devastated we were when Walsh left (although there had been rumors even after his first year that he was looking for a pro head coaching job and had turned down the Rams), but we were mildly reassured that the next coach was supposedly an offensive genius too. 

[81alum]

It would be a real shame if the decision to honor Elway is taken as a sleight to Toby.  As others have said, each should be judged on his own merits, and a way should be found to honor both.  Personally, I wish they would consider the honor for Nelson, too. 

One point in defense of Elway:  I believe he committed to Walsh, but when Walsh left he ended up playing for Dowhower and Wiggin (both defensive guys and not exactly hall of famers).  Toby had the opposite luck, he committed to Wlat Idiotface and then played 3 years for a guy I am pretty sure will be in the HOF.  If Toby had played for Teevens and Harris, we would probably not be having this discussion. 

In general a good point, and I agree with your post.  But while you are right that Dowhower was a disappointment, he was not a defensive coach.  He was the offensive coordinator under Walsh before Walsh left for the first time.  Before that he was an offensive coordinator at Boise State and got his start in coaching under  Don "Air" Coryell.  I remember how devastated we were when Walsh left (although there had been rumors even after his first year that he was looking for a pro head coaching job and had turned down the Rams), but we were mildly reassured that the next coach was supposedly an offensive genius too. 

[oman]

I was walking home from a party at one of the row houses one night and Elway and his girlfriend game riding down the road and sidewalk in a golf cart.  I am saying road and sidewalk because they were horsing around on the thing and going back and forth.  Anyway they zip past me and then run into a bush ("aww, you hedge!) and come to a quick halt.

I turn around and say "Y'all alright?"

Elway looks at me and in kind of a gruff and pissy voice says "Yeah, are you?"

(I have this distinct feeling that he would have said (in, perhaps confusion), "Yeah, are you, Cantinflas?" if I had been wearing my Cantinflas t-shirt.)

[oman]

I was walking home from a party at one of the row houses one night and Elway and his girlfriend game riding down the road and sidewalk in a golf cart.  I am saying road and sidewalk because they were horsing around on the thing and going back and forth.  Anyway they zip past me and then run into a bush ("aww, you hedge!) and come to a quick halt.

I turn around and say "Y'all alright?"

Elway looks at me and in kind of a gruff and pissy voice says "Yeah, are you?"

(I have this distinct feeling that he would have said (in, perhaps confusion), "Yeah, are you, Cantinflas?" if I had been wearing my Cantinflas t-shirt.)

[needle]

Oman, I don't know what the hell you're trying to say, but I'm glad to hear there are Cantinflas shirts around.

http://tchirts.com/Cantinflas-t-shirt.html

[needle]

Oman, I don't know what the hell you're trying to say, but I'm glad to hear there are Cantinflas shirts around.

http://tchirts.com/Cantinflas-t-shirt.html

[LuckE2Bhere]

Oman, I don't know what the hell you're trying to say

Glad I'm not the only one!  ???

[LuckE2Bhere]

Oman, I don't know what the hell you're trying to say

Glad I'm not the only one!  ???

[PrinceLightfoot]

(I have this distinct feeling that he would have said (in, perhaps confusion), "Yeah, are you, Cantinflas?" if I had been wearing my Cantinflas t-shirt.)

That is one name I would not have expected to pop up; Catinflas was like a Mexican Charlie Chaplin except with sound, and was the most popular comedic actor of his time. My dad would stop flipping the channels if one of his movies happened to be on when I was kid - probably still does today.

[PrinceLightfoot]

(I have this distinct feeling that he would have said (in, perhaps confusion), "Yeah, are you, Cantinflas?" if I had been wearing my Cantinflas t-shirt.)

That is one name I would not have expected to pop up; Catinflas was like a Mexican Charlie Chaplin except with sound, and was the most popular comedic actor of his time. My dad would stop flipping the channels if one of his movies happened to be on when I was kid - probably still does today.

[CompSci87]

Did he make any movies in English other than Around the World in 80 Days? I liked him in that but don't know if it was like his usual character.

[CompSci87]

Did he make any movies in English other than Around the World in 80 Days? I liked him in that but don't know if it was like his usual character.

[PrinceLightfoot]

Did he make any movies in English other than Around the World in 80 Days? I liked him in that but don't know if it was like his usual character.

My memory of him is full of silly but clever dialogue and a bit of slap stick. Even without understanding spanish, the scene bellow gives a decent flavor of his true character.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96r_HgdSEQA

Found the complete movie (in 9 parts) of "Pepe" which features Cantiflas in an English movie. Here is part 1 if you are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cPXwMpkpdI

[PrinceLightfoot]

Did he make any movies in English other than Around the World in 80 Days? I liked him in that but don't know if it was like his usual character.

My memory of him is full of silly but clever dialogue and a bit of slap stick. Even without understanding spanish, the scene bellow gives a decent flavor of his true character.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96r_HgdSEQA

Found the complete movie (in 9 parts) of "Pepe" which features Cantiflas in an English movie. Here is part 1 if you are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cPXwMpkpdI

[terry]

Sorry, Yvonne and Garvin, I think you are out to lunch on this.

Elway was a GREAT player. He was the Andrew Luck of his era, except that Elway stood above the crowd even more than Luck did. Elway was a once-in-a-generation talent. Everyone knew he would be the # 1 pick in the draft before he even started his senior season, even though it was a draft that included Eric Dickerson, Kurt Warner, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, etc. He was a two-time All American. He finished second in the Voldemort vote despite playing for a 5-6 team. He set all kinds of records. He could make plays nobody else could make. There is no question -- none -- that Elway was in a league of his own.

Retiring # 7 in honor of Elway is not a slap in the face to Toby. Not in the least. That's just silly. It's a recognition of Elway's greatness, plain and simple. It's appropriate to wait some period of time before bestowing an honor like this. Plunkett waited 20 years. Elway waited 30 years. Darrin Nelson is still waiting. There's no need to retire Toby's jersey three years after he graduated. Toby is a humble guy. I'm sure he understands this.

I agree with Hank and others that Toby can be honored by retiring # 7 again in his honor. I don't see any problem with that. Toby can have his ceremony, his jersey can hang in the Hall of Fame room, and the number can be listed as retired in his honor also. The Yankees' list includes both of their #8's -- http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/histo...umbers.jsp

I don't want to say anything bad about Toby because I think he was great. But let's remember, Toby did little for two years, then had one very good year and one great year. He wasn't even first team All Pac 10 in 2008, let alone an All American. His great year was 2009. Toby's accomplishments were brobdingnagian. But in the big picture, I don't think he did as much for as long as Elway. Elway was a two-time Pac 10 Player of the Year and a two-time All American. I would support retiring the number in Toby's honor 15 or 20 years from now. But I don't think Toby's achievements should stand in the way of honoring Elway at this time. They each deserve their day. (And Toby's day probably should come after Darrin Nelson's day.)

[terry]

Sorry, Yvonne and Garvin, I think you are out to lunch on this.

Elway was a GREAT player. He was the Andrew Luck of his era, except that Elway stood above the crowd even more than Luck did. Elway was a once-in-a-generation talent. Everyone knew he would be the # 1 pick in the draft before he even started his senior season, even though it was a draft that included Eric Dickerson, Kurt Warner, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, etc. He was a two-time All American. He finished second in the Voldemort vote despite playing for a 5-6 team. He set all kinds of records. He could make plays nobody else could make. There is no question -- none -- that Elway was in a league of his own.

Retiring # 7 in honor of Elway is not a slap in the face to Toby. Not in the least. That's just silly. It's a recognition of Elway's greatness, plain and simple. It's appropriate to wait some period of time before bestowing an honor like this. Plunkett waited 20 years. Elway waited 30 years. Darrin Nelson is still waiting. There's no need to retire Toby's jersey three years after he graduated. Toby is a humble guy. I'm sure he understands this.

I agree with Hank and others that Toby can be honored by retiring # 7 again in his honor. I don't see any problem with that. Toby can have his ceremony, his jersey can hang in the Hall of Fame room, and the number can be listed as retired in his honor also. The Yankees' list includes both of their #8's -- http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/histo...umbers.jsp

I don't want to say anything bad about Toby because I think he was great. But let's remember, Toby did little for two years, then had one very good year and one great year. He wasn't even first team All Pac 10 in 2008, let alone an All American. His great year was 2009. Toby's accomplishments were brobdingnagian. But in the big picture, I don't think he did as much for as long as Elway. Elway was a two-time Pac 10 Player of the Year and a two-time All American. I would support retiring the number in Toby's honor 15 or 20 years from now. But I don't think Toby's achievements should stand in the way of honoring Elway at this time. They each deserve their day. (And Toby's day probably should come after Darrin Nelson's day.)

[Leftcoast]

I don't see how honoring Elway when it is his time can in any way be seen as a slam on Toby.  It's just not his time and I believe Toby would understand this. 

Look at it this way, if Jim Plunket and John Elway had to wait 20+ years to see if their numbers stood the test of time why would Toby merit a faster evaluation?  What has he done differently to deserve a fast track path?  Are his numbers that much better than Darrin Nelson's, John Elway's, Jim Plunkett's and, yes, Andrew Luck's?  The Toby we know would understand this and it's is hard to imangine him being OFFENDED by waiting just as his heroes did.

(By the way, didn't we have this discussion about 5 years ago when we realized that Toby would be great and was wearing Elway's number?  This entire discussion has a deja vu quality.)

[Leftcoast]

I don't see how honoring Elway when it is his time can in any way be seen as a slam on Toby.  It's just not his time and I believe Toby would understand this. 

Look at it this way, if Jim Plunket and John Elway had to wait 20+ years to see if their numbers stood the test of time why would Toby merit a faster evaluation?  What has he done differently to deserve a fast track path?  Are his numbers that much better than Darrin Nelson's, John Elway's, Jim Plunkett's and, yes, Andrew Luck's?  The Toby we know would understand this and it's is hard to imangine him being OFFENDED by waiting just as his heroes did.

(By the way, didn't we have this discussion about 5 years ago when we realized that Toby would be great and was wearing Elway's number?  This entire discussion has a deja vu quality.)

[CompSci87]

Found the complete movie (in 9 parts) of "Pepe" which features Cantiflas in an English movie. Here is part 1 if you are interested.

Thanks! I couldn't deal with the super low res capture, but luckily the movie is scheduled to air on TCM very soon -- 8/28/2013 at 12pm. I'll make sure to catch it. http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/15.../Pepe.html

[CompSci87]

Found the complete movie (in 9 parts) of "Pepe" which features Cantiflas in an English movie. Here is part 1 if you are interested.

Thanks! I couldn't deal with the super low res capture, but luckily the movie is scheduled to air on TCM very soon -- 8/28/2013 at 12pm. I'll make sure to catch it. http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/15.../Pepe.html

[Leftcoast]

Since I'm not above answering my own question ....

Yes, we have discussed how/when to retire #7 before.  The "Advanced Search" feature found three seperate threads.  I'll link one of them ... and, as you will see, at least we are consistent!

http://thecardboard.org/board/index.php/...l#msg29707

[Leftcoast]

Since I'm not above answering my own question ....

Yes, we have discussed how/when to retire #7 before.  The "Advanced Search" feature found three seperate threads.  I'll link one of them ... and, as you will see, at least we are consistent!

http://thecardboard.org/board/index.php/...l#msg29707

[terry]

The New York Knicks retired # 30 twice -- once for Earl Monroe, then again six years later for Dick McGuire.

The Montreal Expos retired # 10 twice -- once for Rusty Staub, then again four years later for Andre Dawson.

The Montreal Canadiens retired # 16 twice -- once for Henri Richard, then again 34 years later for Elmer Lach.

So, other teams have retired the same number twice, honoring different players on different occasions. I don't see any reason why Stanford can't do that for Toby some day. I don't think there's anything unseemly about it.

[terry]

The New York Knicks retired # 30 twice -- once for Earl Monroe, then again six years later for Dick McGuire.

The Montreal Expos retired # 10 twice -- once for Rusty Staub, then again four years later for Andre Dawson.

The Montreal Canadiens retired # 16 twice -- once for Henri Richard, then again 34 years later for Elmer Lach.

So, other teams have retired the same number twice, honoring different players on different occasions. I don't see any reason why Stanford can't do that for Toby some day. I don't think there's anything unseemly about it.

[Bruce Wang]

The New York Knicks retired # 30 twice -- once for Earl Monroe, then again six years later for Dick McGuire.

The Montreal Expos retired # 10 twice -- once for Rusty Staub, then again four years later for Andre Dawson.

The Montreal Canadiens retired # 16 twice -- once for Henri Richard, then again 34 years later for Elmer Lach.

Uhh the Knicks and the two franchises from Montreal (one that doesn't exist anymore and the other flops like European soccer players) are probably not the best examples of classy organizations.    ;)

[Bruce Wang]

The New York Knicks retired # 30 twice -- once for Earl Monroe, then again six years later for Dick McGuire.

The Montreal Expos retired # 10 twice -- once for Rusty Staub, then again four years later for Andre Dawson.

The Montreal Canadiens retired # 16 twice -- once for Henri Richard, then again 34 years later for Elmer Lach.

Uhh the Knicks and the two franchises from Montreal (one that doesn't exist anymore and the other flops like European soccer players) are probably not the best examples of classy organizations.    ;)