11-01-2014, 08:05 PM
In Shaw's first three years, it was the Harbaugh recruits that kept it going.
"We should all be better." --- Bill Walton, UCLA telecast, Feb. 16, 2013
Oregon game thread
"We should all be better." --- Bill Walton, UCLA telecast, Feb. 16, 2013
In Shaw's first three years, it was the Harbaugh recruits that kept it going.
"We should all be better." --- Bill Walton, UCLA telecast, Feb. 16, 2013
BurgXXIII
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11-01-2014, 08:06 PM
For a few seasons, George Seifert was the best coach in the history of the NFL. I'm not sure many still believe that.
For a few seasons, George Seifert was the best coach in the history of the NFL. I'm not sure many still believe that.
11-01-2014, 08:10 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:05 PM)SamAtoms1980 link Wrote:In Shaw's first three years, it was the Harbaugh recruits that kept it going.
Yeah, Harbaugh recruits like...Alex Carter. Or Andrus Peat. And of course the year Harbaugh spent with guys like Yankey and Anderson made a big difference. And somehow Harbaugh recruited and mystically coached Jordan Richards, Devon Cajuste and Ty Montgomery from afar despite officially being a 49ers coach. A generous man.
Oh, wait, you actually have a shitty argument.
(11-01-2014, 08:05 PM)SamAtoms1980 link Wrote:In Shaw's first three years, it was the Harbaugh recruits that kept it going.
Yeah, Harbaugh recruits like...Alex Carter. Or Andrus Peat. And of course the year Harbaugh spent with guys like Yankey and Anderson made a big difference. And somehow Harbaugh recruited and mystically coached Jordan Richards, Devon Cajuste and Ty Montgomery from afar despite officially being a 49ers coach. A generous man.
Oh, wait, you actually have a shitty argument.
Cardinal96
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11-01-2014, 08:18 PM
I can't believe Shaw is getting heat. He has been here 3 full seasons and has taken us to 3 BCS bowls. Shaw got us to over-achieve the last two years. Our 2012 squad really had no business beating Oregon on the road that year. This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.
I can't believe Shaw is getting heat. He has been here 3 full seasons and has taken us to 3 BCS bowls. Shaw got us to over-achieve the last two years. Our 2012 squad really had no business beating Oregon on the road that year. This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.
Cardinal96
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11-01-2014, 08:21 PM
Also I love Harbaugh. But he captured lightning in a bottle with Andrew Luck. Without a once-in-a-generation QB I am not sure he would be viewed in the same light. Shaw took us to two Rose Bowls with Kevin Hogan as QB which is damn impressive.
Also I love Harbaugh. But he captured lightning in a bottle with Andrew Luck. Without a once-in-a-generation QB I am not sure he would be viewed in the same light. Shaw took us to two Rose Bowls with Kevin Hogan as QB which is damn impressive.
11-01-2014, 08:22 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:18 PM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:I can't believe Shaw is getting heat. He has been here 3 full seasons and has taken us to 3 BCS bowls. Shaw got us to over-achieve the last two years. Our 2012 squad really had no business beating Oregon on the road that year. This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.
I think Shaw should deservedly be getting heat. This was the most lopsided Stanford loss since 2007, and that deserves criticism. But we shouldn't lose perspective about Shaw's entire record, or extrapolate about the rest of his career at Stanford. He'll have to adjust his approach, and his record suggests a pretty solid ability to do just that.
(11-01-2014, 08:18 PM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:I can't believe Shaw is getting heat. He has been here 3 full seasons and has taken us to 3 BCS bowls. Shaw got us to over-achieve the last two years. Our 2012 squad really had no business beating Oregon on the road that year. This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.
I think Shaw should deservedly be getting heat. This was the most lopsided Stanford loss since 2007, and that deserves criticism. But we shouldn't lose perspective about Shaw's entire record, or extrapolate about the rest of his career at Stanford. He'll have to adjust his approach, and his record suggests a pretty solid ability to do just that.
Cardinal96
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11-01-2014, 08:22 PM
(11-01-2014, 07:52 PM)BurgXXIII link Wrote:Say what you want about the defense, but how many times will you beat Oregon (or anyone) scoring exactly one touchdown?
About as many times as you will beat them giving up 45 points. Not often. :)
(11-01-2014, 07:52 PM)BurgXXIII link Wrote:Say what you want about the defense, but how many times will you beat Oregon (or anyone) scoring exactly one touchdown?
About as many times as you will beat them giving up 45 points. Not often. :)
11-01-2014, 08:23 PM
I have no insight into the relative skills of our offensive and defensive coordinators compared to our departed coordinators. But from my vantage point it seems like the head coach and the coordinators are responsible for the results.Â
Emotionally, we seem to lack a focal point and a spark on the offensive side. To me that is on the coaches as well.
Well, I guess Big Game is our big game.
Emotionally, we seem to lack a focal point and a spark on the offensive side. To me that is on the coaches as well.
Well, I guess Big Game is our big game.
I have no insight into the relative skills of our offensive and defensive coordinators compared to our departed coordinators. But from my vantage point it seems like the head coach and the coordinators are responsible for the results.Â
Emotionally, we seem to lack a focal point and a spark on the offensive side. To me that is on the coaches as well.
Well, I guess Big Game is our big game.
Emotionally, we seem to lack a focal point and a spark on the offensive side. To me that is on the coaches as well.
Well, I guess Big Game is our big game.
Cardinal96
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11-01-2014, 08:25 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:22 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=11041.msg104162#msg104162 date=1414898292]
I can't believe Shaw is getting heat. He has been here 3 full seasons and has taken us to 3 BCS bowls. Shaw got us to over-achieve the last two years. Our 2012 squad really had no business beating Oregon on the road that year. This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.
I think Shaw should deservedly be getting heat. This was the most lopsided Stanford loss since 2007, and that deserves criticism. But we shouldn't lose perspective about Shaw's entire record, or extrapolate about the rest of his career at Stanford. He'll have to adjust his approach, and his record suggests a pretty solid ability to do just that.
[/quote]
If he deserves heat, it would be for lack of recruiting success and developing that talent. I saw a substantial talent mismatch on the field tonight.
(11-01-2014, 08:22 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=11041.msg104162#msg104162 date=1414898292]
I can't believe Shaw is getting heat. He has been here 3 full seasons and has taken us to 3 BCS bowls. Shaw got us to over-achieve the last two years. Our 2012 squad really had no business beating Oregon on the road that year. This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.
I think Shaw should deservedly be getting heat. This was the most lopsided Stanford loss since 2007, and that deserves criticism. But we shouldn't lose perspective about Shaw's entire record, or extrapolate about the rest of his career at Stanford. He'll have to adjust his approach, and his record suggests a pretty solid ability to do just that.
[/quote]
If he deserves heat, it would be for lack of recruiting success and developing that talent. I saw a substantial talent mismatch on the field tonight.
11-01-2014, 08:25 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:18 PM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:Shaw got us to over-achieve the last two years.
Don't agree with this at all. Shaw had a great staff and more importantly, passionate over-achieving players.
11-01-2014, 08:27 PM
Quote: This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.Â
Disagree on the talent part, except for running back. But Cajuste being out for AZ State was a factor, for sure, and the SC game involved some mental mistakes. Notre Dame was a straight up loss to a better team, in my view. Tonight, the same.
Anyway, blow a couple of games and bam, just like that, you're an underperforming team.
Quote: This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.Â
Disagree on the talent part, except for running back. But Cajuste being out for AZ State was a factor, for sure, and the SC game involved some mental mistakes. Notre Dame was a straight up loss to a better team, in my view. Tonight, the same.
Anyway, blow a couple of games and bam, just like that, you're an underperforming team.
11-01-2014, 08:27 PM
One more thing about the Harbaugh administration. The best thing he did was leave on top, so he didn't have to deal with the inevitable frustration that outside factors have from merely duplicating past successes. (The number of people who think the 2013 season was disappointing or an underachievement is unfortunate.)
An objective look at his record, particularly in recruiting, indicates some latent problems that Shaw's dealing with now. His QB recruiting, aside from Luck: Taysom Hill, an excellent spread QB; Dallas Lloyd; Josh Nunes; Kevin Hogan; Evan Crower. Pretty mediocre. He consistently neglected positions (e.g. TE). His 2011 class has a ton of busts or poor evaluations (basically the entire DL and RB class.)
Of course he also brought in a ton of great talent. But no delusions here, please.
An objective look at his record, particularly in recruiting, indicates some latent problems that Shaw's dealing with now. His QB recruiting, aside from Luck: Taysom Hill, an excellent spread QB; Dallas Lloyd; Josh Nunes; Kevin Hogan; Evan Crower. Pretty mediocre. He consistently neglected positions (e.g. TE). His 2011 class has a ton of busts or poor evaluations (basically the entire DL and RB class.)
Of course he also brought in a ton of great talent. But no delusions here, please.
One more thing about the Harbaugh administration. The best thing he did was leave on top, so he didn't have to deal with the inevitable frustration that outside factors have from merely duplicating past successes. (The number of people who think the 2013 season was disappointing or an underachievement is unfortunate.)
An objective look at his record, particularly in recruiting, indicates some latent problems that Shaw's dealing with now. His QB recruiting, aside from Luck: Taysom Hill, an excellent spread QB; Dallas Lloyd; Josh Nunes; Kevin Hogan; Evan Crower. Pretty mediocre. He consistently neglected positions (e.g. TE). His 2011 class has a ton of busts or poor evaluations (basically the entire DL and RB class.)
Of course he also brought in a ton of great talent. But no delusions here, please.
An objective look at his record, particularly in recruiting, indicates some latent problems that Shaw's dealing with now. His QB recruiting, aside from Luck: Taysom Hill, an excellent spread QB; Dallas Lloyd; Josh Nunes; Kevin Hogan; Evan Crower. Pretty mediocre. He consistently neglected positions (e.g. TE). His 2011 class has a ton of busts or poor evaluations (basically the entire DL and RB class.)
Of course he also brought in a ton of great talent. But no delusions here, please.
BurgXXIII
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11-01-2014, 08:29 PM
Had Shaw swept his three BCS bowl games, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Had Shaw swept his three BCS bowl games, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
11-01-2014, 08:33 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:25 PM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:If he deserves heat, it would be for lack of recruiting success and developing that talent. I saw a substantial talent mismatch on the field tonight.
Yeah, they had a #1 overall pick at QB and we didn't. GOD DAMN YOU DAVID SHAW!!!
(11-01-2014, 08:25 PM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:If he deserves heat, it would be for lack of recruiting success and developing that talent. I saw a substantial talent mismatch on the field tonight.
Yeah, they had a #1 overall pick at QB and we didn't. GOD DAMN YOU DAVID SHAW!!!
11-01-2014, 08:35 PM
The assistants and coordinators right now seem inadequate. Bloomgren seems to be neither competent or able at handling the OL coaching duties. If he's still an OC, he needs to quit that too.
I watched the game with a former Stanford offensive tackle from just before my time--he and I are in agreement that Stanford lacks the edge or mentality that Harbaugh recruited for, and that's one of the issues with watching these players play. The other more pressing issue is that what talent we have isn't translating into production, and we both think that's squarely on the coaches. Hogan also hasn't really developed as a QB, and we suspect Harbaugh wouldn't have left that unaddressed while Shaw seems to have decided to work with what he had.
Also, arm tackles and missing open field tackles are signs of BS. Leaving Mariota uncovered and allowing RBs to waltz through the line into open grass is BS. Do we miss Mason? Who's responsible for the drop off in defensive play? Or rather, how is everyone so out of position that arm tackles are all they can attempt? Bad scheme?
I watched the game with a former Stanford offensive tackle from just before my time--he and I are in agreement that Stanford lacks the edge or mentality that Harbaugh recruited for, and that's one of the issues with watching these players play. The other more pressing issue is that what talent we have isn't translating into production, and we both think that's squarely on the coaches. Hogan also hasn't really developed as a QB, and we suspect Harbaugh wouldn't have left that unaddressed while Shaw seems to have decided to work with what he had.
Also, arm tackles and missing open field tackles are signs of BS. Leaving Mariota uncovered and allowing RBs to waltz through the line into open grass is BS. Do we miss Mason? Who's responsible for the drop off in defensive play? Or rather, how is everyone so out of position that arm tackles are all they can attempt? Bad scheme?
The assistants and coordinators right now seem inadequate. Bloomgren seems to be neither competent or able at handling the OL coaching duties. If he's still an OC, he needs to quit that too.
I watched the game with a former Stanford offensive tackle from just before my time--he and I are in agreement that Stanford lacks the edge or mentality that Harbaugh recruited for, and that's one of the issues with watching these players play. The other more pressing issue is that what talent we have isn't translating into production, and we both think that's squarely on the coaches. Hogan also hasn't really developed as a QB, and we suspect Harbaugh wouldn't have left that unaddressed while Shaw seems to have decided to work with what he had.
Also, arm tackles and missing open field tackles are signs of BS. Leaving Mariota uncovered and allowing RBs to waltz through the line into open grass is BS. Do we miss Mason? Who's responsible for the drop off in defensive play? Or rather, how is everyone so out of position that arm tackles are all they can attempt? Bad scheme?
I watched the game with a former Stanford offensive tackle from just before my time--he and I are in agreement that Stanford lacks the edge or mentality that Harbaugh recruited for, and that's one of the issues with watching these players play. The other more pressing issue is that what talent we have isn't translating into production, and we both think that's squarely on the coaches. Hogan also hasn't really developed as a QB, and we suspect Harbaugh wouldn't have left that unaddressed while Shaw seems to have decided to work with what he had.
Also, arm tackles and missing open field tackles are signs of BS. Leaving Mariota uncovered and allowing RBs to waltz through the line into open grass is BS. Do we miss Mason? Who's responsible for the drop off in defensive play? Or rather, how is everyone so out of position that arm tackles are all they can attempt? Bad scheme?
Cardinal96
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11-01-2014, 08:36 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:27 PM)needle link Wrote:Quote: This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.Â
Disagree on the talent part, except for running back. But Cajuste being out for AZ State was a factor, for sure, and the SC game involved some mental mistakes. the University of Dead Fake Girlfriends was a straight up loss to a better team, in my view. Tonight, the same.
Anyway, blow a couple of games and bam, just like that, you're an underperforming team.
Oregon, Washington, USC and UCLA are all sitting on more first round NFL talent than us. Notre Dame is probably also sitting on more NFL talent. We clearly have more overall talent than Cal, WSU and OSU.
RB is an obvious weakness. I am not sure there is a team in the Pac 12 that would trade QBs with us. Maybe Washington.
(11-01-2014, 08:27 PM)needle link Wrote:Quote: This year we have average talent and are playing as an average team.Â
Disagree on the talent part, except for running back. But Cajuste being out for AZ State was a factor, for sure, and the SC game involved some mental mistakes. the University of Dead Fake Girlfriends was a straight up loss to a better team, in my view. Tonight, the same.
Anyway, blow a couple of games and bam, just like that, you're an underperforming team.
Oregon, Washington, USC and UCLA are all sitting on more first round NFL talent than us. Notre Dame is probably also sitting on more NFL talent. We clearly have more overall talent than Cal, WSU and OSU.
RB is an obvious weakness. I am not sure there is a team in the Pac 12 that would trade QBs with us. Maybe Washington.
Cardinal96
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11-01-2014, 08:38 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:33 PM)stupac2 link Wrote:[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=11041.msg104167#msg104167 date=1414898716]If he deserves heat, it would be for lack of recruiting success and developing that talent. I saw a substantial talent mismatch on the field tonight.
Yeah, they had a #1 overall pick at QB and we didn't. GOD DAMN YOU DAVID SHAW!!!
[/quote]
The mismatch wasn't only at QB. Their offensive line did a much better job run blocking than ours. Royce Freeman is much better than any RB we have.
And, to be clear, I am not criticizing Shaw. Sometimes, you just get beat by a better team.
(11-01-2014, 08:33 PM)stupac2 link Wrote:[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=11041.msg104167#msg104167 date=1414898716]If he deserves heat, it would be for lack of recruiting success and developing that talent. I saw a substantial talent mismatch on the field tonight.
Yeah, they had a #1 overall pick at QB and we didn't. GOD DAMN YOU DAVID SHAW!!!
[/quote]
The mismatch wasn't only at QB. Their offensive line did a much better job run blocking than ours. Royce Freeman is much better than any RB we have.
And, to be clear, I am not criticizing Shaw. Sometimes, you just get beat by a better team.
11-01-2014, 08:40 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:35 PM)fullmetal link Wrote:Also, arm tackles and missing open field tackles are signs of BS. Leaving Mariota uncovered and allowing RBs to waltz through the line into open grass is BS. Do we miss Mason? Who's responsible for the drop off in defensive play? Or rather, how is everyone so out of position that arm tackles are all they can attempt? Bad scheme?
Not having a real nose tackle is probably an issue. I'm not sure if you can really blame the coaches for 2 DL being injured, you might be able to blame them for the lack of depth at the position (but recruiting misses happen to everyone, and DL is one of our hardest positions to recruit).
Anyway, I don't think this is really all that bad of a loss. This is clearly a down year and we clearly have problems. If we lose to Cal then we can all panic.
(11-01-2014, 08:35 PM)fullmetal link Wrote:Also, arm tackles and missing open field tackles are signs of BS. Leaving Mariota uncovered and allowing RBs to waltz through the line into open grass is BS. Do we miss Mason? Who's responsible for the drop off in defensive play? Or rather, how is everyone so out of position that arm tackles are all they can attempt? Bad scheme?
Not having a real nose tackle is probably an issue. I'm not sure if you can really blame the coaches for 2 DL being injured, you might be able to blame them for the lack of depth at the position (but recruiting misses happen to everyone, and DL is one of our hardest positions to recruit).
Anyway, I don't think this is really all that bad of a loss. This is clearly a down year and we clearly have problems. If we lose to Cal then we can all panic.
11-01-2014, 08:42 PM
(11-01-2014, 08:38 PM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:The mismatch wasn't only at QB. Their offensive line did a much better job run blocking than ours. Royce Freeman is much better than any RB we have.
And, to be clear, I am not criticizing Shaw. Sometimes, you just get beat by a better team.
Right, but the mismatch at QB is like 95% of why we lost, based on the plays he was making with his arm and legs. If Oregon has Darron Thomas instead of Mariota that game is nowhere near that bad. Sort of like how when we lost Andrew Luck we basically lost 15-20 points off how much we scored. It'll be reeeeally interesting to see what Helfrich can do next year without Mariota.
(11-01-2014, 08:38 PM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:The mismatch wasn't only at QB. Their offensive line did a much better job run blocking than ours. Royce Freeman is much better than any RB we have.
And, to be clear, I am not criticizing Shaw. Sometimes, you just get beat by a better team.
Right, but the mismatch at QB is like 95% of why we lost, based on the plays he was making with his arm and legs. If Oregon has Darron Thomas instead of Mariota that game is nowhere near that bad. Sort of like how when we lost Andrew Luck we basically lost 15-20 points off how much we scored. It'll be reeeeally interesting to see what Helfrich can do next year without Mariota.
11-01-2014, 08:45 PM
Enh, I was disturbed by the mismatch on both lines, I wouldn't leave it at the QB position at all.
Also think it's a bit odd to harp on an alleged defensive regression. We were down 1.5 defensive starters against a good team. Again, let's not blow things out of proportion when the defense has mostly been really good.
I'd focus more on the offensive issues, which have been a pattern.
Also think it's a bit odd to harp on an alleged defensive regression. We were down 1.5 defensive starters against a good team. Again, let's not blow things out of proportion when the defense has mostly been really good.
I'd focus more on the offensive issues, which have been a pattern.
Enh, I was disturbed by the mismatch on both lines, I wouldn't leave it at the QB position at all.
Also think it's a bit odd to harp on an alleged defensive regression. We were down 1.5 defensive starters against a good team. Again, let's not blow things out of proportion when the defense has mostly been really good.
I'd focus more on the offensive issues, which have been a pattern.
Also think it's a bit odd to harp on an alleged defensive regression. We were down 1.5 defensive starters against a good team. Again, let's not blow things out of proportion when the defense has mostly been really good.
I'd focus more on the offensive issues, which have been a pattern.
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