03-24-2015, 11:52 AM
Herb Sendek is out at ASU after nine years. ASU is already in discussions with Jeff Capel.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...ball-coach
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...ball-coach
Today in opponent attrition, coaching edition: ASU
Herb Sendek is out at ASU after nine years. ASU is already in discussions with Jeff Capel.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...ball-coach
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...ball-coach
03-24-2015, 12:19 PM
Wow, some ADs think having a winning record and just missing the NCAAs is enough to fire a coach.
03-24-2015, 12:40 PM
(03-24-2015, 12:19 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:Wow, some ADs think having a winning record and just missing the NCAAs is enough to fire a coach.
Imagine that!
(03-24-2015, 12:19 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:Wow, some ADs think having a winning record and just missing the NCAAs is enough to fire a coach.
Imagine that!
03-24-2015, 12:51 PM
(03-24-2015, 12:19 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:Wow, some ADs think having a winning record and just missing the NCAAs is enough to fire a coach.
Of course, the apparent top choice as a replacement is a former Duke player and assistant whose last winning season as a head coach was 6 years ago. That will excite and energize the fan base!
"We have an unwritten rule around here not to do anything stupid."
-Casey Jacobsen, Feb 3, 2000
(03-24-2015, 12:19 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:Wow, some ADs think having a winning record and just missing the NCAAs is enough to fire a coach.
Of course, the apparent top choice as a replacement is a former Duke player and assistant whose last winning season as a head coach was 6 years ago. That will excite and energize the fan base!
"We have an unwritten rule around here not to do anything stupid."
-Casey Jacobsen, Feb 3, 2000
(03-24-2015, 12:19 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:Wow, some ADs think having a winning record and just missing the NCAAs is enough to fire a coach.
Actually, Sendek is an interesting comparison to Dawkins.
Sendek was hired by ASU two years before Dawkins was hired by Stanford.
A quick survey of their records - with Sendek I'll add values for the first 7 years to match Dawkins time so far at Stanford:
Sendek
Overall record: 155-133, 53.8% : (first 7) 116-105, 52.5%
Conference record: 68-86, 44.2% : 49-69, 41.5%
NCAA Tournament Appearances: 2 : 1
NCAA Tournament Wins: 1 : 1
NIT Appearances: 4 : 3
NIT Wins: 4: 3
CBI/etc tourneys: 0 : 0
Best Conference Finish: 2nd : 2nd
Worst Conference Finish: Last (twice) : Last (twice)
Avg Conference finish: 6th : 6.6th
Dawkins
Overall record: 138-100, 58.0%
Conference record: 58-68, 46.0%
NCAA Tournament Appearances: 1
NCAA Tournament Wins: 2
NIT Appearances: 3
NIT Wins: 8 (and counting)
CBI/etc tourneys: 1
Best Conference Finish: 3rd
Worst Conference Finish: 9th (of 10)
Avg Conference finish: 6.4th
It may be hard to figure out how either kept their jobs so long, but it doesn't look like ASU is an example of an aggressive AD firing the basketball coach for anything less than exemplary achievement.
(03-24-2015, 12:19 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:Wow, some ADs think having a winning record and just missing the NCAAs is enough to fire a coach.
Actually, Sendek is an interesting comparison to Dawkins.
Sendek was hired by ASU two years before Dawkins was hired by Stanford.
A quick survey of their records - with Sendek I'll add values for the first 7 years to match Dawkins time so far at Stanford:
Sendek
Overall record: 155-133, 53.8% : (first 7) 116-105, 52.5%
Conference record: 68-86, 44.2% : 49-69, 41.5%
NCAA Tournament Appearances: 2 : 1
NCAA Tournament Wins: 1 : 1
NIT Appearances: 4 : 3
NIT Wins: 4: 3
CBI/etc tourneys: 0 : 0
Best Conference Finish: 2nd : 2nd
Worst Conference Finish: Last (twice) : Last (twice)
Avg Conference finish: 6th : 6.6th
Dawkins
Overall record: 138-100, 58.0%
Conference record: 58-68, 46.0%
NCAA Tournament Appearances: 1
NCAA Tournament Wins: 2
NIT Appearances: 3
NIT Wins: 8 (and counting)
CBI/etc tourneys: 1
Best Conference Finish: 3rd
Worst Conference Finish: 9th (of 10)
Avg Conference finish: 6.4th
It may be hard to figure out how either kept their jobs so long, but it doesn't look like ASU is an example of an aggressive AD firing the basketball coach for anything less than exemplary achievement.
03-24-2015, 01:54 PM
Quote:It may be hard to figure out how either kept their jobs so long, but it doesn't look like ASU is an example of an aggressive AD firing the basketball coach for less than exemplary achievements.
I like the optimistic view, but my reaction to your post was: oh god, so we've got 2 more years of this before an AD will pull the trigger?
Perhaps the decision was helped by the fact that ASU has a new AD as of Jan 2014. Interestingly, ASU had just re-signed Sendek to a contract extension in Dec of 2014. So the new AD was willingly to quickly pull the trigger on signing an extension and then to scuttle the deal 4 months later. Kind of bizarre.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/co.../20618069/
Quote:It may be hard to figure out how either kept their jobs so long, but it doesn't look like ASU is an example of an aggressive AD firing the basketball coach for less than exemplary achievements.
I like the optimistic view, but my reaction to your post was: oh god, so we've got 2 more years of this before an AD will pull the trigger?
Perhaps the decision was helped by the fact that ASU has a new AD as of Jan 2014. Interestingly, ASU had just re-signed Sendek to a contract extension in Dec of 2014. So the new AD was willingly to quickly pull the trigger on signing an extension and then to scuttle the deal 4 months later. Kind of bizarre.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/co.../20618069/
03-24-2015, 03:48 PM
Anybody have a handy source to see how each coach did versus pre-season expectations? (i.e. actual results versus pre-season media poll?)
My guess is that Sendek exceeded those expectations in most years and Dawkins did not which may mean that Dawkins/Stanford has attracted better players and gotten similar results to what Sendek got with worse players. I think ASU would be hard to recruit at with Arizona in state and little basketball legacy to fall back on at ASU. Stanford has broader appeal and should be able to recruit better than ASU despite Stanford's higher admission requirements.
My guess is that Sendek exceeded those expectations in most years and Dawkins did not which may mean that Dawkins/Stanford has attracted better players and gotten similar results to what Sendek got with worse players. I think ASU would be hard to recruit at with Arizona in state and little basketball legacy to fall back on at ASU. Stanford has broader appeal and should be able to recruit better than ASU despite Stanford's higher admission requirements.
Anybody have a handy source to see how each coach did versus pre-season expectations? (i.e. actual results versus pre-season media poll?)
My guess is that Sendek exceeded those expectations in most years and Dawkins did not which may mean that Dawkins/Stanford has attracted better players and gotten similar results to what Sendek got with worse players. I think ASU would be hard to recruit at with Arizona in state and little basketball legacy to fall back on at ASU. Stanford has broader appeal and should be able to recruit better than ASU despite Stanford's higher admission requirements.
My guess is that Sendek exceeded those expectations in most years and Dawkins did not which may mean that Dawkins/Stanford has attracted better players and gotten similar results to what Sendek got with worse players. I think ASU would be hard to recruit at with Arizona in state and little basketball legacy to fall back on at ASU. Stanford has broader appeal and should be able to recruit better than ASU despite Stanford's higher admission requirements.
03-24-2015, 04:25 PM
If we use Sendak as a comparison, Dawkins doesn't look so bad. Not only was Sendak held on for two years longer, he has a significantly worse record, a significantly worse conference record, fewer NCAA tournament wins, fewer NIT wins (and feewer NIT championships), a worse average finish, two years finishing dead last (something Dawkins hasn't "accomplished" yet). The only thing he has on Dawkins is that his best year, he had a better conference finish than Dawkins did. But if Sendak is the standard, Dawkins should reasonably expect at least two more years, and probably more unless they are bad years.
Of course, I don't think Sendak should be the standard, especially for Stanford. The below-average mean conference finish for Dawkins is just devastating, in my opinion. One or two bad years is excusable, but an average finish over seven years that is less than the midpoint is unacceptable for Stanford basketball. I think we should reasonably strive to be in the top third of the conference (average finish of 4 or better). Dawkins is never going to get there.
BC
Of course, I don't think Sendak should be the standard, especially for Stanford. The below-average mean conference finish for Dawkins is just devastating, in my opinion. One or two bad years is excusable, but an average finish over seven years that is less than the midpoint is unacceptable for Stanford basketball. I think we should reasonably strive to be in the top third of the conference (average finish of 4 or better). Dawkins is never going to get there.
BC
If we use Sendak as a comparison, Dawkins doesn't look so bad. Not only was Sendak held on for two years longer, he has a significantly worse record, a significantly worse conference record, fewer NCAA tournament wins, fewer NIT wins (and feewer NIT championships), a worse average finish, two years finishing dead last (something Dawkins hasn't "accomplished" yet). The only thing he has on Dawkins is that his best year, he had a better conference finish than Dawkins did. But if Sendak is the standard, Dawkins should reasonably expect at least two more years, and probably more unless they are bad years.
Of course, I don't think Sendak should be the standard, especially for Stanford. The below-average mean conference finish for Dawkins is just devastating, in my opinion. One or two bad years is excusable, but an average finish over seven years that is less than the midpoint is unacceptable for Stanford basketball. I think we should reasonably strive to be in the top third of the conference (average finish of 4 or better). Dawkins is never going to get there.
BC
Of course, I don't think Sendak should be the standard, especially for Stanford. The below-average mean conference finish for Dawkins is just devastating, in my opinion. One or two bad years is excusable, but an average finish over seven years that is less than the midpoint is unacceptable for Stanford basketball. I think we should reasonably strive to be in the top third of the conference (average finish of 4 or better). Dawkins is never going to get there.
BC
03-24-2015, 05:05 PM
Y'all realize that if Dawkins was going to be let go this year, it likely would have happened already, right? (Like Grant at Alabama, which went to the NIT without him.)Â
Besides, your collective consternation means nothing to this Georgia Tech fan, whose alma mater just retained a coach with the worst four-year record in ACC history (something like that; anyway it is bad with a capital b), probably because it is still paying millions to a coach just fired by George Mason. There must be a master 5-year plan in place, there must.
Besides, your collective consternation means nothing to this Georgia Tech fan, whose alma mater just retained a coach with the worst four-year record in ACC history (something like that; anyway it is bad with a capital b), probably because it is still paying millions to a coach just fired by George Mason. There must be a master 5-year plan in place, there must.
Yeah, I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working .I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work. Peter Gibbons
Y'all realize that if Dawkins was going to be let go this year, it likely would have happened already, right? (Like Grant at Alabama, which went to the NIT without him.)Â
Besides, your collective consternation means nothing to this Georgia Tech fan, whose alma mater just retained a coach with the worst four-year record in ACC history (something like that; anyway it is bad with a capital b), probably because it is still paying millions to a coach just fired by George Mason. There must be a master 5-year plan in place, there must.
Besides, your collective consternation means nothing to this Georgia Tech fan, whose alma mater just retained a coach with the worst four-year record in ACC history (something like that; anyway it is bad with a capital b), probably because it is still paying millions to a coach just fired by George Mason. There must be a master 5-year plan in place, there must.
Yeah, I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working .I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work. Peter Gibbons
03-24-2015, 05:17 PM
(03-24-2015, 05:05 PM)jacketree link Wrote:Y'all realize that if Dawkins was going to be let go this year, it likely would have happened already, right? (Like Grant at Alabama, which went to the NIT without him.)Â
Not really. I can't recall Stanford firing a coach before the season was completely over, but I'm pretty sure it's happened once or twice. Dawkins, for all his mediocrity, does not deserve that. He's a class guy and so is Muir.
I just hope that tonight is the last home game for more than Randle, Brown, and Nastic.
(03-24-2015, 05:05 PM)jacketree link Wrote:Y'all realize that if Dawkins was going to be let go this year, it likely would have happened already, right? (Like Grant at Alabama, which went to the NIT without him.)Â
Not really. I can't recall Stanford firing a coach before the season was completely over, but I'm pretty sure it's happened once or twice. Dawkins, for all his mediocrity, does not deserve that. He's a class guy and so is Muir.
I just hope that tonight is the last home game for more than Randle, Brown, and Nastic.
03-24-2015, 05:18 PM
(03-24-2015, 03:48 PM)donkey687 link Wrote:Anybody have a handy source to see how each coach did versus pre-season expectations? (i.e. actual results versus pre-season media poll?)
Expectations at ASU when Sendek took over were substantially below expectations at Stanford when Dawkins took over. ASU had not been to the big dance 13 of the previous 14 seasons.
(03-24-2015, 03:48 PM)donkey687 link Wrote:Anybody have a handy source to see how each coach did versus pre-season expectations? (i.e. actual results versus pre-season media poll?)
Expectations at ASU when Sendek took over were substantially below expectations at Stanford when Dawkins took over. ASU had not been to the big dance 13 of the previous 14 seasons.
03-24-2015, 06:58 PM
I suspect Dawkins would have been fired years ago if the football team wasn't on a roll. Having a BCS level football team takes the pressure off a lot of other teams.
03-24-2015, 09:32 PM
(03-24-2015, 04:25 PM)Boston Card link Wrote:Of course, I don't think Sendak should be the standard, especially for Stanford. The below-average mean conference finish for Dawkins is just devastating, in my opinion. One or two bad years is excusable, but an average finish over seven years that is less than the midpoint is unacceptable for Stanford basketball. I think we should reasonably strive to be in the top third of the conference (average finish of 4 or better). Dawkins is never going to get there.
BC
Well...maybe it's a good thing that wasn't the thinking back in 1986-87 when Monty started. His 7-year mean conference finish in the [then] Pac-10 was... 5.3 [with one 2d place and one last place] -- all in all pretty similar to Dawkins'. Of course, Monty didn't really have the talent in those first seven years that Dawkins has had. He had to get by with guys like Lichti and Keefe...
As for the expectations at ASU for Sendek, it may be that they were lower than for Dawkins at Stanford, but, by all rights, they probably shouldn't have been. Sendek had 13 years of head coaching experience before going to ASU, including 6 NCAA trips and 6 NIT trips. Dawkins had 0 years of head coaching experience. There aren't many jobs where it's reasonable to expect someone with 13 years of experience [and relatively decent success] to do a worse job than someone with zero experience. It may have been a mistake to hire a new head coach at Stanford with zero head coaching experience, but can't blame Dawkins for being hired. Also, the situation at Stanford [in basketball] was pretty toxic when Dawkins took over, which, as I recall, created a fair amount of uncertainty as to exactly WHAT to expect.
I heartily agree that we should strive to be at the top of the conference on a regular basis, and Dawkins may not be the guy who can get us there. But he at least deserves to have the arguments against him, and the comparisons with other coaches, be fair and consistently applied.
(03-24-2015, 04:25 PM)Boston Card link Wrote:Of course, I don't think Sendak should be the standard, especially for Stanford. The below-average mean conference finish for Dawkins is just devastating, in my opinion. One or two bad years is excusable, but an average finish over seven years that is less than the midpoint is unacceptable for Stanford basketball. I think we should reasonably strive to be in the top third of the conference (average finish of 4 or better). Dawkins is never going to get there.
BC
Well...maybe it's a good thing that wasn't the thinking back in 1986-87 when Monty started. His 7-year mean conference finish in the [then] Pac-10 was... 5.3 [with one 2d place and one last place] -- all in all pretty similar to Dawkins'. Of course, Monty didn't really have the talent in those first seven years that Dawkins has had. He had to get by with guys like Lichti and Keefe...
As for the expectations at ASU for Sendek, it may be that they were lower than for Dawkins at Stanford, but, by all rights, they probably shouldn't have been. Sendek had 13 years of head coaching experience before going to ASU, including 6 NCAA trips and 6 NIT trips. Dawkins had 0 years of head coaching experience. There aren't many jobs where it's reasonable to expect someone with 13 years of experience [and relatively decent success] to do a worse job than someone with zero experience. It may have been a mistake to hire a new head coach at Stanford with zero head coaching experience, but can't blame Dawkins for being hired. Also, the situation at Stanford [in basketball] was pretty toxic when Dawkins took over, which, as I recall, created a fair amount of uncertainty as to exactly WHAT to expect.
I heartily agree that we should strive to be at the top of the conference on a regular basis, and Dawkins may not be the guy who can get us there. But he at least deserves to have the arguments against him, and the comparisons with other coaches, be fair and consistently applied.
03-24-2015, 09:44 PM
In 1963 Stanford MB shared the Pac 8 title with UCLA. Just a bit of history. in 1965 you could go to the Old Pavilion and sit 5 feet from John Wooden during the game.Â
03-24-2015, 10:02 PM
Wow Ferrari, I hope that was tongue in cheek! If not, I'm not sure where that's coming from?
Monty proved that Stanford can be a powerhouse on a consistent basis. I watched the Davis years as a student because I love and played the game. I was thankful when Monty came and improved things. We can win with regularity with quality coaching. Muir is a basketball guy and I believe he wants to do the right thing, but Dawkins has emotional appeal.....as a great former player, a nice guy, but not a great coach.Â
I don't see him getting pulled this year, especially now that we are going to the Garden, but I do hope that Muir will draw the line next year by putting out the NCAA ultimatum.  If we can be in the top 3 in football with regularity, then we can also return to the top three in hoops. We shouldn't settle for Ben Braun-like mediocrity...which is what has happened over the last 7 years.Â
Monty proved that Stanford can be a powerhouse on a consistent basis. I watched the Davis years as a student because I love and played the game. I was thankful when Monty came and improved things. We can win with regularity with quality coaching. Muir is a basketball guy and I believe he wants to do the right thing, but Dawkins has emotional appeal.....as a great former player, a nice guy, but not a great coach.Â
I don't see him getting pulled this year, especially now that we are going to the Garden, but I do hope that Muir will draw the line next year by putting out the NCAA ultimatum.  If we can be in the top 3 in football with regularity, then we can also return to the top three in hoops. We shouldn't settle for Ben Braun-like mediocrity...which is what has happened over the last 7 years.Â
Wow Ferrari, I hope that was tongue in cheek! If not, I'm not sure where that's coming from?
Monty proved that Stanford can be a powerhouse on a consistent basis. I watched the Davis years as a student because I love and played the game. I was thankful when Monty came and improved things. We can win with regularity with quality coaching. Muir is a basketball guy and I believe he wants to do the right thing, but Dawkins has emotional appeal.....as a great former player, a nice guy, but not a great coach.Â
I don't see him getting pulled this year, especially now that we are going to the Garden, but I do hope that Muir will draw the line next year by putting out the NCAA ultimatum.  If we can be in the top 3 in football with regularity, then we can also return to the top three in hoops. We shouldn't settle for Ben Braun-like mediocrity...which is what has happened over the last 7 years.Â
Monty proved that Stanford can be a powerhouse on a consistent basis. I watched the Davis years as a student because I love and played the game. I was thankful when Monty came and improved things. We can win with regularity with quality coaching. Muir is a basketball guy and I believe he wants to do the right thing, but Dawkins has emotional appeal.....as a great former player, a nice guy, but not a great coach.Â
I don't see him getting pulled this year, especially now that we are going to the Garden, but I do hope that Muir will draw the line next year by putting out the NCAA ultimatum.  If we can be in the top 3 in football with regularity, then we can also return to the top three in hoops. We shouldn't settle for Ben Braun-like mediocrity...which is what has happened over the last 7 years.Â
BurgXXIII
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03-24-2015, 10:06 PM
So which year will it all come together for Dawkins? The announcers pointed out that Vanderbilt is returning something like 90% of their scoring, so the NIT experience launches them to the Big Dance next year. I believe Stanford returns about 30% of its scoring. Will the underclassmen's potential be realized next season, or are we looking two (or three) years down the road? We regressed after graduating Powell and Huestis.
So which year will it all come together for Dawkins? The announcers pointed out that Vanderbilt is returning something like 90% of their scoring, so the NIT experience launches them to the Big Dance next year. I believe Stanford returns about 30% of its scoring. Will the underclassmen's potential be realized next season, or are we looking two (or three) years down the road? We regressed after graduating Powell and Huestis.
03-24-2015, 10:15 PM
No, Bill Walsh was not fired. As bad as the final two years of Walsh II were, he was not fired. You don't fire Bill Walsh. He was kicked upstairs, as they say, and was very useful for a while first as an adviser and for a while an interim athletic director. Also, the date on this press release indicates that it was following the season, not before it ended.
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/941130Arc4032.html
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/941130Arc4032.html
No, Bill Walsh was not fired. As bad as the final two years of Walsh II were, he was not fired. You don't fire Bill Walsh. He was kicked upstairs, as they say, and was very useful for a while first as an adviser and for a while an interim athletic director. Also, the date on this press release indicates that it was following the season, not before it ended.
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/941130Arc4032.html
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/94/941130Arc4032.html
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