[jacketree]

[quote author=jacketree link=topic=12143.msg118358#msg118358 date=1431723781]
Having marched in two bands ...

but I was cool once ...

Those two statements cannot both be true.
[/quote]

Very well done!

Now, I didn't say those things were simultaneous.....

(Though being in the jazz band was pretty cool Daddio.)

[jacketree]

[quote author=jacketree link=topic=12143.msg118358#msg118358 date=1431723781]
Having marched in two bands ...

but I was cool once ...

Those two statements cannot both be true.
[/quote]

Very well done!

Now, I didn't say those things were simultaneous.....

(Though being in the jazz band was pretty cool Daddio.)

[Mick]

For better or worse, a lot of the behavior that was once brushed aside as "college kids will be college kids" is now considered a serious offense.

Doubt if "Animal House" could get made today.

Well, society's become a lot safer.  I think about the things I did in high school and college, and there were probably a 1/2 dozen incidents that I'll never discuss with my parents.  But then my granddad was a frat pledge at Stanford in the 1930s, and part of his hazing was to be dumped unceremoniously in Monterey in his underwear, drunk as a skunk at 4:30 a.m..  He grinned about it as he relayed the story (took some clothes off of a drying line, hitched his way back to Palo Alto).  These days, people would be horrified.  Both of my sons rushed a frat, considered to be somewhat mild in terms of hazing.  As near as I can tell, it was some very embarrassing, comparatively few dangerous things at a level of danger that wouldn't include a ride to the morgue.

[Mick]

For better or worse, a lot of the behavior that was once brushed aside as "college kids will be college kids" is now considered a serious offense.

Doubt if "Animal House" could get made today.

Well, society's become a lot safer.  I think about the things I did in high school and college, and there were probably a 1/2 dozen incidents that I'll never discuss with my parents.  But then my granddad was a frat pledge at Stanford in the 1930s, and part of his hazing was to be dumped unceremoniously in Monterey in his underwear, drunk as a skunk at 4:30 a.m..  He grinned about it as he relayed the story (took some clothes off of a drying line, hitched his way back to Palo Alto).  These days, people would be horrified.  Both of my sons rushed a frat, considered to be somewhat mild in terms of hazing.  As near as I can tell, it was some very embarrassing, comparatively few dangerous things at a level of danger that wouldn't include a ride to the morgue.

[terry]

Where in the world can misfit nerdy kids who need to let loose and experience life go if they can't do it by joining the Stanford band?  I think the Stanford band has served as a social development zone for people who have badly needed it for generations.  Let them be. They really aren't hurting anyone.

They aren't hurting anyone . . . until they hurt someone.

A hazing ritual that involves making someone drink alcohol until he vomits doesn't hurt anyone, until someone dies of alcohol poisoning. Then everyone wants to know why the university allowed it.

Probably a similar concern about Title IX. No harm done until there's a sexual assault. Then everyone wants to know why the university allowed a sexually hostile environment to exist.

I think the university probably felt it should do something now, rather than wait for a crisis and have everyone asking why nothing was done.

[terry]

Where in the world can misfit nerdy kids who need to let loose and experience life go if they can't do it by joining the Stanford band?  I think the Stanford band has served as a social development zone for people who have badly needed it for generations.  Let them be. They really aren't hurting anyone.

They aren't hurting anyone . . . until they hurt someone.

A hazing ritual that involves making someone drink alcohol until he vomits doesn't hurt anyone, until someone dies of alcohol poisoning. Then everyone wants to know why the university allowed it.

Probably a similar concern about Title IX. No harm done until there's a sexual assault. Then everyone wants to know why the university allowed a sexually hostile environment to exist.

I think the university probably felt it should do something now, rather than wait for a crisis and have everyone asking why nothing was done.

[terry]

That means no Band at Northwestern, U$€ or Colorado.  3 games I was planning to attend this year.  No Band at Corvallis or Pullman either.  And no bowl game!

I think the Band usually makes only one regular season road trip each year. So the Band probably wouldn't have gone to Northwestern, Colorado, Corvallis, or Pullman in any event.

[terry]

That means no Band at Northwestern, U$€ or Colorado.  3 games I was planning to attend this year.  No Band at Corvallis or Pullman either.  And no bowl game!

I think the Band usually makes only one regular season road trip each year. So the Band probably wouldn't have gone to Northwestern, Colorado, Corvallis, or Pullman in any event.

[Mick]

That's soft of what I was thinking, Terry.  A non-punishment punishment.

[Mick]

That's soft of what I was thinking, Terry.  A non-punishment punishment.

[terry]

As the subject of usually mid-level attacks and prejudice in my youth, it is obvious that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable (Polish, Irish, Italians, Germans, etc) while other groups have become generally offensive (Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Asians, etc.)

I would not say that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable. I think the trend has been in the other direction. I don't have proof of this; it's just my impression. When I was a kid, we used to hear Polish jokes and Italian jokes frequently. My kids probably never heard one. Where I live, that's just not done any more. I think that kind of ethnic humor seems to have declined.

[terry]

As the subject of usually mid-level attacks and prejudice in my youth, it is obvious that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable (Polish, Irish, Italians, Germans, etc) while other groups have become generally offensive (Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Asians, etc.)

I would not say that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable. I think the trend has been in the other direction. I don't have proof of this; it's just my impression. When I was a kid, we used to hear Polish jokes and Italian jokes frequently. My kids probably never heard one. Where I live, that's just not done any more. I think that kind of ethnic humor seems to have declined.

[JohnR34231]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=12143.msg118372#msg118372 date=1431729571]
As the subject of usually mid-level attacks and prejudice in my youth, it is obvious that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable (Polish, Irish, Italians, Germans, etc) while other groups have become generally offensive (Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Asians, etc.)

I would not say that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable. I think the trend has been in the other direction. I don't have proof of this; it's just my impression. When I was a kid, we used to hear Polish jokes and Italian jokes frequently. My kids probably never heard one. Where I live, that's just not done any more. I think that kind of ethnic humor seems to have declined.
[/quote]

Yeah, I thought all ethnic humor was taboo, except maybe concerning your own ethnic group.

Since I'm a WASP, I''ll offer up these somewhat dated ones.

Q. What do you call a WASP who has sex twice a month?
A. A nymphomaniac
Q. How do you tell a WASP at an orgy?
A. He's the one washing the grapes.

[JohnR34231]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=12143.msg118372#msg118372 date=1431729571]
As the subject of usually mid-level attacks and prejudice in my youth, it is obvious that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable (Polish, Irish, Italians, Germans, etc) while other groups have become generally offensive (Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Asians, etc.)

I would not say that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable. I think the trend has been in the other direction. I don't have proof of this; it's just my impression. When I was a kid, we used to hear Polish jokes and Italian jokes frequently. My kids probably never heard one. Where I live, that's just not done any more. I think that kind of ethnic humor seems to have declined.
[/quote]

Yeah, I thought all ethnic humor was taboo, except maybe concerning your own ethnic group.

Since I'm a WASP, I''ll offer up these somewhat dated ones.

Q. What do you call a WASP who has sex twice a month?
A. A nymphomaniac
Q. How do you tell a WASP at an orgy?
A. He's the one washing the grapes.

[Mick]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=12143.msg118372#msg118372 date=1431729571]
As the subject of usually mid-level attacks and prejudice in my youth, it is obvious that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable (Polish, Irish, Italians, Germans, etc) while other groups have become generally offensive (Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Asians, etc.)

I would not say that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable. I think the trend has been in the other direction. I don't have proof of this; it's just my impression. When I was a kid, we used to hear Polish jokes and Italian jokes frequently. My kids probably never heard one. Where I live, that's just not done any more. I think that kind of ethnic humor seems to have declined.
[/quote]

Agreed.  I hadn't heard anything like that since about 1970...although...I heard a very senior attorney in the Midwest recently to the former Chair of his firm by saying, "He's Irish, so you know he's pretty excitable."  Not exactly a slur, but I don't know that I would categorize Americans of Irish descent as such.  Unless they watch Notre Dame football... :P

[Mick]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=12143.msg118372#msg118372 date=1431729571]
As the subject of usually mid-level attacks and prejudice in my youth, it is obvious that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable (Polish, Irish, Italians, Germans, etc) while other groups have become generally offensive (Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, Asians, etc.)

I would not say that making fun of some ethnic groups has become generally acceptable. I think the trend has been in the other direction. I don't have proof of this; it's just my impression. When I was a kid, we used to hear Polish jokes and Italian jokes frequently. My kids probably never heard one. Where I live, that's just not done any more. I think that kind of ethnic humor seems to have declined.
[/quote]

Agreed.  I hadn't heard anything like that since about 1970...although...I heard a very senior attorney in the Midwest recently to the former Chair of his firm by saying, "He's Irish, so you know he's pretty excitable."  Not exactly a slur, but I don't know that I would categorize Americans of Irish descent as such.  Unless they watch Notre Dame football... :P

[CTcard]

[quote author=CTcard link=topic=12143.msg118448#msg118448 date=1431787780]
[quote author=jacketree link=topic=12143.msg118358#msg118358 date=1431723781]
Having marched in two bands ...

but I was cool once ...

Those two statements cannot both be true.
[/quote]

Very well done!

Now, I didn't say those things were simultaneous.....

(Though being in the jazz band was pretty cool Daddio.)
[/quote]

Marching jazz band???

[CTcard]

[quote author=CTcard link=topic=12143.msg118448#msg118448 date=1431787780]
[quote author=jacketree link=topic=12143.msg118358#msg118358 date=1431723781]
Having marched in two bands ...

but I was cool once ...

Those two statements cannot both be true.
[/quote]

Very well done!

Now, I didn't say those things were simultaneous.....

(Though being in the jazz band was pretty cool Daddio.)
[/quote]

Marching jazz band???

[Leftcoast]

I happened to be in Ireland when the LSJUMB Notr.e Dame show hit the Irish newspapers.  The Irish were not amused.  Of course all they heard were snippets about the famine, stereotypes of Irish fighting and "Eamon McHungry" (the main character in the script).

When I actually got a couple of them to read the script they agreed parts were pretty funny but they have no local touch points for college football halftime shows let alone LSJUMB.  They also don't get why an American football team is called the Fighting Irish and roll their eyes when Americans make leprechaun jokes.

The Irish I met DID have a sense of humor and will forgive much if the joke is funny enough. 

[Leftcoast]

I happened to be in Ireland when the LSJUMB Notr.e Dame show hit the Irish newspapers.  The Irish were not amused.  Of course all they heard were snippets about the famine, stereotypes of Irish fighting and "Eamon McHungry" (the main character in the script).

When I actually got a couple of them to read the script they agreed parts were pretty funny but they have no local touch points for college football halftime shows let alone LSJUMB.  They also don't get why an American football team is called the Fighting Irish and roll their eyes when Americans make leprechaun jokes.

The Irish I met DID have a sense of humor and will forgive much if the joke is funny enough. 

[Mick]

I happened to be in Ireland when the LSJUMB Notr.e Dame show hit the Irish newspapers.  The Irish were not amused.  Of course all they heard were snippets about the famine, stereotypes of Irish fighting and "Eamon McHungry" (the main character in the script).

When I actually got a couple of them to read the script they agreed parts were pretty funny but they have no local touch points for college football halftime shows let alone LSJUMB.  They also don't get why an American football team is called the Fighting Irish and roll their eyes when Americans make leprechaun jokes.

The Irish I met DID have a sense of humor and will forgive much if the joke is funny enough.

The native Irish and Americans of Irish descent are separated by more than an ocean, I would say.

[Mick]

I happened to be in Ireland when the LSJUMB Notr.e Dame show hit the Irish newspapers.  The Irish were not amused.  Of course all they heard were snippets about the famine, stereotypes of Irish fighting and "Eamon McHungry" (the main character in the script).

When I actually got a couple of them to read the script they agreed parts were pretty funny but they have no local touch points for college football halftime shows let alone LSJUMB.  They also don't get why an American football team is called the Fighting Irish and roll their eyes when Americans make leprechaun jokes.

The Irish I met DID have a sense of humor and will forgive much if the joke is funny enough.

The native Irish and Americans of Irish descent are separated by more than an ocean, I would say.

[terry]

As I recall, that ND halftime show was titled "These Irish, why must they fight?" The script introduced a character who was called, I believe, Seamus O'Hungry. The script said the Irish have a sparse cultural heritage that consists only of fighting and starving, and it suggested that NotreDame should call its teams the Blighting Irish.

The press described it as a parody of the potato famine, which was not really true. The point was to poke fun at ND's Fighting Irish nickname, not to poke fun at the potato famine.

To the extent the Irish still are viewed stereotypically as being drunken brawlers, I would argue that the NotreDame nickname is in part responsible for perpetuating that image. In fact, if there's one cultural reference to that stereotype that just about everyone knows, it's ND's nickname. That nickname deserves to have someone poke fun at it. The Band had the right idea, but the execution left something to be desired.

[terry]

As I recall, that ND halftime show was titled "These Irish, why must they fight?" The script introduced a character who was called, I believe, Seamus O'Hungry. The script said the Irish have a sparse cultural heritage that consists only of fighting and starving, and it suggested that NotreDame should call its teams the Blighting Irish.

The press described it as a parody of the potato famine, which was not really true. The point was to poke fun at ND's Fighting Irish nickname, not to poke fun at the potato famine.

To the extent the Irish still are viewed stereotypically as being drunken brawlers, I would argue that the NotreDame nickname is in part responsible for perpetuating that image. In fact, if there's one cultural reference to that stereotype that just about everyone knows, it's ND's nickname. That nickname deserves to have someone poke fun at it. The Band had the right idea, but the execution left something to be desired.

[Rally]

[quote author=leftcoast link=topic=12143.msg118485#msg118485 date=1431811509]
I happened to be in Ireland when the LSJUMB Notr.e Dame show hit the Irish newspapers.  The Irish were not amused.  Of course all they heard were snippets about the famine, stereotypes of Irish fighting and "Eamon McHungry" (the main character in the script).

When I actually got a couple of them to read the script they agreed parts were pretty funny but they have no local touch points for college football halftime shows let alone LSJUMB.  They also don't get why an American football team is called the Fighting Irish and roll their eyes when Americans make leprechaun jokes.

The Irish I met DID have a sense of humor and will forgive much if the joke is funny enough.

The native Irish and Americans of Irish descent are separated by more than an ocean, I would say.
[/quote]

On the docks of Dublin (I think) there is a memorial installation of bronze statues, proceeding along the wharf memorializing the desperate souls who risked death at sea rather than death at home, some clutching babies, that is quite moving, even without narration.  When we were there we were struck by the animosity of Irish tour guides towards the English.  Found the same thing in Scotland.  If I remember rightly, when B. Franklin toured Ireland before the revolution he saw people living in caves and in underground hovels, and asked his English guide who they were.  The Irish, he said, they like it that way.  Hardened his resolve not to let the English rule America in a similar manner.

[Rally]

[quote author=leftcoast link=topic=12143.msg118485#msg118485 date=1431811509]
I happened to be in Ireland when the LSJUMB Notr.e Dame show hit the Irish newspapers.  The Irish were not amused.  Of course all they heard were snippets about the famine, stereotypes of Irish fighting and "Eamon McHungry" (the main character in the script).

When I actually got a couple of them to read the script they agreed parts were pretty funny but they have no local touch points for college football halftime shows let alone LSJUMB.  They also don't get why an American football team is called the Fighting Irish and roll their eyes when Americans make leprechaun jokes.

The Irish I met DID have a sense of humor and will forgive much if the joke is funny enough.

The native Irish and Americans of Irish descent are separated by more than an ocean, I would say.
[/quote]

On the docks of Dublin (I think) there is a memorial installation of bronze statues, proceeding along the wharf memorializing the desperate souls who risked death at sea rather than death at home, some clutching babies, that is quite moving, even without narration.  When we were there we were struck by the animosity of Irish tour guides towards the English.  Found the same thing in Scotland.  If I remember rightly, when B. Franklin toured Ireland before the revolution he saw people living in caves and in underground hovels, and asked his English guide who they were.  The Irish, he said, they like it that way.  Hardened his resolve not to let the English rule America in a similar manner.

[terry]

When we were there we were struck by the animosity of Irish tour guides towards the English.  Found the same thing in Scotland.

I got the same impression in Ireland and Scotland. In both places, the people were treated very badly by the English and they definitely have not forgotten about it.

[terry]

When we were there we were struck by the animosity of Irish tour guides towards the English.  Found the same thing in Scotland.

I got the same impression in Ireland and Scotland. In both places, the people were treated very badly by the English and they definitely have not forgotten about it.

[Mick]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=12143.msg118490#msg118490 date=1431817058]
When we were there we were struck by the animosity of Irish tour guides towards the English.  Found the same thing in Scotland.

I got the same impression in Ireland and Scotland. In both places, the people were treated badly by the English and they definitely have not forgotten about it.
[/quote]

I can see why.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland

[Mick]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=12143.msg118490#msg118490 date=1431817058]
When we were there we were struck by the animosity of Irish tour guides towards the English.  Found the same thing in Scotland.

I got the same impression in Ireland and Scotland. In both places, the people were treated badly by the English and they definitely have not forgotten about it.
[/quote]

I can see why.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland

[Bruce Wang]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=12143.msg118490#msg118490 date=1431817058]
When we were there we were struck by the animosity of Irish tour guides towards the English.  Found the same thing in Scotland.

I got the same impression in Ireland and Scotland. In both places, the people were treated very badly by the English and they definitely have not forgotten about it.
[/quote]

I met this neat organization that brings teens together from longstanding conflict areas (Northern Ireland, Israel-Palestine, and now Uganda) to a camp in New England.  I pointed out that all these conflicts had something in common.

[Bruce Wang]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=12143.msg118490#msg118490 date=1431817058]
When we were there we were struck by the animosity of Irish tour guides towards the English.  Found the same thing in Scotland.

I got the same impression in Ireland and Scotland. In both places, the people were treated very badly by the English and they definitely have not forgotten about it.
[/quote]

I met this neat organization that brings teens together from longstanding conflict areas (Northern Ireland, Israel-Palestine, and now Uganda) to a camp in New England.  I pointed out that all these conflicts had something in common.

[CowboyIndian]

The Irish Republican Army: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3wNQCQ4qso

[CowboyIndian]

The Irish Republican Army: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3wNQCQ4qso

[Leftcoast]

Wow ..... You REALLY went to the wrong pub. The most welcoming bars I've been to  in two decades of business travel were in the Irish countryside.  (Close second is the Netherlands - Amsterdam and Eindhoven.)

Yes, the Irish enmity toward the English is still widespread but in the Republic it's a mile wide and a foot deep as more than one Dubliner has told me.  By this they meant that they hadn't forgotten but they are inevitably and perhaps, tragically, drawn together by their common heritage.  Man United is the most popular team in Ireland, Rugby weekends in Dublin are the best night out of the year and most Irish families have relatives living in London and visit frequently.  The relative prosperity in the Republic of Ireland over the past 30 years has blunted the painful edge of old wounds.  Many Dubliners believed living well was the best revenge.

Not so in the North.  Visit Derry, Belfast or Port a Down if you want to see the old embers waiting to flame again.  There the Catholic schoolchildren are still reminded yearly that Ireland was a net exporter of food during the great famine - English landlords sold their produce in London while a million of their Irish neighbors starved to death.  Of course in these cities you don't need to go all the way back to the potato famine to find an insult.  The"Troubles" are in everyone's recent memory, in some neighborhoods the IRA murals are freshly painted and one friend showed me rubber bullets he'd collected in his neighborhood during a June marching season.

When visiting it's best to remember that to us (and the band) the famine is century's old news - In places on that island its presence is still palpable.

Here's a picture of the famine memorial mentioned above.  It's on the Northside quays of the Liffey as you approach the docks.  Haunting.

[Leftcoast]

Wow ..... You REALLY went to the wrong pub. The most welcoming bars I've been to  in two decades of business travel were in the Irish countryside.  (Close second is the Netherlands - Amsterdam and Eindhoven.)

Yes, the Irish enmity toward the English is still widespread but in the Republic it's a mile wide and a foot deep as more than one Dubliner has told me.  By this they meant that they hadn't forgotten but they are inevitably and perhaps, tragically, drawn together by their common heritage.  Man United is the most popular team in Ireland, Rugby weekends in Dublin are the best night out of the year and most Irish families have relatives living in London and visit frequently.  The relative prosperity in the Republic of Ireland over the past 30 years has blunted the painful edge of old wounds.  Many Dubliners believed living well was the best revenge.

Not so in the North.  Visit Derry, Belfast or Port a Down if you want to see the old embers waiting to flame again.  There the Catholic schoolchildren are still reminded yearly that Ireland was a net exporter of food during the great famine - English landlords sold their produce in London while a million of their Irish neighbors starved to death.  Of course in these cities you don't need to go all the way back to the potato famine to find an insult.  The"Troubles" are in everyone's recent memory, in some neighborhoods the IRA murals are freshly painted and one friend showed me rubber bullets he'd collected in his neighborhood during a June marching season.

When visiting it's best to remember that to us (and the band) the famine is century's old news - In places on that island its presence is still palpable.

Here's a picture of the famine memorial mentioned above.  It's on the Northside quays of the Liffey as you approach the docks.  Haunting.

[Nan3cy]

I think that when I was in Dublin nine years ago, that sculpture was in St. Stephen's Green. Could there be two of them now?

[Nan3cy]

I think that when I was in Dublin nine years ago, that sculpture was in St. Stephen's Green. Could there be two of them now?

[Rally]

I think that when I was in Dublin nine years ago, that sculpture was in St. Stephen's Green. Could there be two of them now?

Maybe there is more than one, but this location seems very appropriate.

[Rally]

I think that when I was in Dublin nine years ago, that sculpture was in St. Stephen's Green. Could there be two of them now?

Maybe there is more than one, but this location seems very appropriate.