04-10-2020, 11:21 AM
Awesomeness from Apple and Google
04-10-2020, 12:02 PM
Agreed, this looks to be a well thought out plan, with a fair bit of thought given to how to keep data private.
The downside is it won’t be rolled out until mid-May, and like a lot of things, its effectiveness depends on network effects; it’s only as good as people downloading the relevant apps and updating their phones, and reporting themselves if they have symptoms.
BC
The downside is it won’t be rolled out until mid-May, and like a lot of things, its effectiveness depends on network effects; it’s only as good as people downloading the relevant apps and updating their phones, and reporting themselves if they have symptoms.
BC
Agreed, this looks to be a well thought out plan, with a fair bit of thought given to how to keep data private.
The downside is it won’t be rolled out until mid-May, and like a lot of things, its effectiveness depends on network effects; it’s only as good as people downloading the relevant apps and updating their phones, and reporting themselves if they have symptoms.
BC
The downside is it won’t be rolled out until mid-May, and like a lot of things, its effectiveness depends on network effects; it’s only as good as people downloading the relevant apps and updating their phones, and reporting themselves if they have symptoms.
BC
04-10-2020, 12:21 PM
(04-10-2020, 12:02 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Agreed, this looks to be a well thought out plan, with a fair bit of thought given to how to keep data private.
The downside is it won’t be rolled out until mid-May, and like a lot of things, its effectiveness depends on network effects; it’s only as good as people downloading the relevant apps and updating their phones, and reporting themselves if they have symptoms.
BC
I would be happier if Apple was announcing plans to repatriate its Chinese operations to the Rust Belt. It's going to be under enormous pressure to do so. That relocation would be extremely useful in resolving more than one social problem.
I wouldn't give you two cents for all your fancy rules if, behind them, they didn't have a little bit of plain, ordinary, everyday kindness - yeah, and a little looking out for the other fella, too.
(04-10-2020, 12:02 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Agreed, this looks to be a well thought out plan, with a fair bit of thought given to how to keep data private.
The downside is it won’t be rolled out until mid-May, and like a lot of things, its effectiveness depends on network effects; it’s only as good as people downloading the relevant apps and updating their phones, and reporting themselves if they have symptoms.
BC
I would be happier if Apple was announcing plans to repatriate its Chinese operations to the Rust Belt. It's going to be under enormous pressure to do so. That relocation would be extremely useful in resolving more than one social problem.
I wouldn't give you two cents for all your fancy rules if, behind them, they didn't have a little bit of plain, ordinary, everyday kindness - yeah, and a little looking out for the other fella, too.
04-10-2020, 12:43 PM
There's also another downside, which is the potential for mis-reporting; people saying they are positive when they are not, just to F with everyone.
We need global positive test serial numbers that allow only confirmed infections to be entered into this new app API and associated database. Here's an idea:
- Each positive test is assigned a serial number (pre-created alpha numeric to account for country/state, like USACA1234ABCD)
- Whenever there is a positive test, lab tech/doctor/nurse enters an unused code into global database to confirm a positive test
- Doing this allows an app user to enter that code one time on a phone app that uses the Apple/Google API
- This code is then given to the person confirmed infected so they can enter that code on the app they are told to download
This will ensure only authenticated positive tests are entered and will give a worldwide standardization of test data, in real time, without having to wait for all these countries to collect data then report it periodically.
There would then be a global network tracking all infections in real time, so everyone can be alerted when they have been near someone who tested positive. This could also allow all the restaurants, bars, sports and entertainment venues to allow people in who can show they have the app indicating they haven't been around anyone infected for x amount of days.
Maybe there can be a complimentary tracking for the serology test that would work similarly. I'm certain someone is working on an at home test that will upload data via mobile phone in a very similar way, like the Kinsa thermometers. They can all use the same system.
It starts with testing capacity (and smartphones with Bluetooth), but the contact tracing could all be done by software and databases, without need for manual human labor whatsoever. I'd even offer a tax credit that uses the serial numbers for tests as receipts, to reward people for using an app that tracks positive cases and sharing their positive test results.
OK, board, now rip holes in my suggestion :)
We need global positive test serial numbers that allow only confirmed infections to be entered into this new app API and associated database. Here's an idea:
- Each positive test is assigned a serial number (pre-created alpha numeric to account for country/state, like USACA1234ABCD)
- Whenever there is a positive test, lab tech/doctor/nurse enters an unused code into global database to confirm a positive test
- Doing this allows an app user to enter that code one time on a phone app that uses the Apple/Google API
- This code is then given to the person confirmed infected so they can enter that code on the app they are told to download
This will ensure only authenticated positive tests are entered and will give a worldwide standardization of test data, in real time, without having to wait for all these countries to collect data then report it periodically.
There would then be a global network tracking all infections in real time, so everyone can be alerted when they have been near someone who tested positive. This could also allow all the restaurants, bars, sports and entertainment venues to allow people in who can show they have the app indicating they haven't been around anyone infected for x amount of days.
Maybe there can be a complimentary tracking for the serology test that would work similarly. I'm certain someone is working on an at home test that will upload data via mobile phone in a very similar way, like the Kinsa thermometers. They can all use the same system.
It starts with testing capacity (and smartphones with Bluetooth), but the contact tracing could all be done by software and databases, without need for manual human labor whatsoever. I'd even offer a tax credit that uses the serial numbers for tests as receipts, to reward people for using an app that tracks positive cases and sharing their positive test results.
OK, board, now rip holes in my suggestion :)
There's also another downside, which is the potential for mis-reporting; people saying they are positive when they are not, just to F with everyone.
We need global positive test serial numbers that allow only confirmed infections to be entered into this new app API and associated database. Here's an idea:
- Each positive test is assigned a serial number (pre-created alpha numeric to account for country/state, like USACA1234ABCD)
- Whenever there is a positive test, lab tech/doctor/nurse enters an unused code into global database to confirm a positive test
- Doing this allows an app user to enter that code one time on a phone app that uses the Apple/Google API
- This code is then given to the person confirmed infected so they can enter that code on the app they are told to download
This will ensure only authenticated positive tests are entered and will give a worldwide standardization of test data, in real time, without having to wait for all these countries to collect data then report it periodically.
There would then be a global network tracking all infections in real time, so everyone can be alerted when they have been near someone who tested positive. This could also allow all the restaurants, bars, sports and entertainment venues to allow people in who can show they have the app indicating they haven't been around anyone infected for x amount of days.
Maybe there can be a complimentary tracking for the serology test that would work similarly. I'm certain someone is working on an at home test that will upload data via mobile phone in a very similar way, like the Kinsa thermometers. They can all use the same system.
It starts with testing capacity (and smartphones with Bluetooth), but the contact tracing could all be done by software and databases, without need for manual human labor whatsoever. I'd even offer a tax credit that uses the serial numbers for tests as receipts, to reward people for using an app that tracks positive cases and sharing their positive test results.
OK, board, now rip holes in my suggestion :)
We need global positive test serial numbers that allow only confirmed infections to be entered into this new app API and associated database. Here's an idea:
- Each positive test is assigned a serial number (pre-created alpha numeric to account for country/state, like USACA1234ABCD)
- Whenever there is a positive test, lab tech/doctor/nurse enters an unused code into global database to confirm a positive test
- Doing this allows an app user to enter that code one time on a phone app that uses the Apple/Google API
- This code is then given to the person confirmed infected so they can enter that code on the app they are told to download
This will ensure only authenticated positive tests are entered and will give a worldwide standardization of test data, in real time, without having to wait for all these countries to collect data then report it periodically.
There would then be a global network tracking all infections in real time, so everyone can be alerted when they have been near someone who tested positive. This could also allow all the restaurants, bars, sports and entertainment venues to allow people in who can show they have the app indicating they haven't been around anyone infected for x amount of days.
Maybe there can be a complimentary tracking for the serology test that would work similarly. I'm certain someone is working on an at home test that will upload data via mobile phone in a very similar way, like the Kinsa thermometers. They can all use the same system.
It starts with testing capacity (and smartphones with Bluetooth), but the contact tracing could all be done by software and databases, without need for manual human labor whatsoever. I'd even offer a tax credit that uses the serial numbers for tests as receipts, to reward people for using an app that tracks positive cases and sharing their positive test results.
OK, board, now rip holes in my suggestion :)
Repatriating Apple build sites is a quixotic goal at this point.
When high-tech manufacturing moved out of the US we didn't just move out the branded companies you know, we moved out their suppliers (sheet metal, ICs, Printed Circuit Boards, etc). This also meant we lost the SUPPLIER'S suppliers (plastic molders, raw materials, resin/weave, platers, etc), the equipment makers used by the brand name factories (placement equipment, many semi-conductor equipment manufacturers, Optical inspection, etc), the tool making supporting all of the above (much faster turns and lower cost in China) and the skilled workers and education needed to support everything mentioned.
If Apple moved a factory back here, it would probably be small, focused on configure-to-order/high-end product and all their material and equipment would be shipped in from overseas. I believe that is the model for their small Sacramento facility but some here might know better.
I was one of the lead automation engineers (Stanford Industrial Engineer who actually went into manufacturing!) on one of the very last high-end branded manufacturing sites in Santa Clara county. By the end the cost of fighting the outsourcing trend was increasingly impossible (read high cost) for mass manufacturing. All of our suppliers were now in China and our first step was to ship everything we needed here.
Now I spend a lot of time working with Chinese companies that do what I used to do and have been into the Foxconn/HonHai Guangzhou/Shenzhen sites building all those iPhones (but not those particular buildings of course!). The thirty-five year trend of moving manufacturing elsewhere will not turn around anytime soon. In most cases now manufacturing is done in areas specializing in the specific niches and deeply engrained into the local support system (high volume IC manufacturing in Taiwan and several other spots, high volume, high end consumer electronics in coastal china, low volume/low cost manufacturing chases the lowest wage rate around the world, etc.
More realistic repatriation goals would be bulky/large items and new manufacturing tech items - basically products where shipping costs are high and we haven't given competitors a 35 year head-start. Watch Tesla and see how they compete - they have both advantages.
When high-tech manufacturing moved out of the US we didn't just move out the branded companies you know, we moved out their suppliers (sheet metal, ICs, Printed Circuit Boards, etc). This also meant we lost the SUPPLIER'S suppliers (plastic molders, raw materials, resin/weave, platers, etc), the equipment makers used by the brand name factories (placement equipment, many semi-conductor equipment manufacturers, Optical inspection, etc), the tool making supporting all of the above (much faster turns and lower cost in China) and the skilled workers and education needed to support everything mentioned.
If Apple moved a factory back here, it would probably be small, focused on configure-to-order/high-end product and all their material and equipment would be shipped in from overseas. I believe that is the model for their small Sacramento facility but some here might know better.
I was one of the lead automation engineers (Stanford Industrial Engineer who actually went into manufacturing!) on one of the very last high-end branded manufacturing sites in Santa Clara county. By the end the cost of fighting the outsourcing trend was increasingly impossible (read high cost) for mass manufacturing. All of our suppliers were now in China and our first step was to ship everything we needed here.
Now I spend a lot of time working with Chinese companies that do what I used to do and have been into the Foxconn/HonHai Guangzhou/Shenzhen sites building all those iPhones (but not those particular buildings of course!). The thirty-five year trend of moving manufacturing elsewhere will not turn around anytime soon. In most cases now manufacturing is done in areas specializing in the specific niches and deeply engrained into the local support system (high volume IC manufacturing in Taiwan and several other spots, high volume, high end consumer electronics in coastal china, low volume/low cost manufacturing chases the lowest wage rate around the world, etc.
More realistic repatriation goals would be bulky/large items and new manufacturing tech items - basically products where shipping costs are high and we haven't given competitors a 35 year head-start. Watch Tesla and see how they compete - they have both advantages.
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
Repatriating Apple build sites is a quixotic goal at this point.
When high-tech manufacturing moved out of the US we didn't just move out the branded companies you know, we moved out their suppliers (sheet metal, ICs, Printed Circuit Boards, etc). This also meant we lost the SUPPLIER'S suppliers (plastic molders, raw materials, resin/weave, platers, etc), the equipment makers used by the brand name factories (placement equipment, many semi-conductor equipment manufacturers, Optical inspection, etc), the tool making supporting all of the above (much faster turns and lower cost in China) and the skilled workers and education needed to support everything mentioned.
If Apple moved a factory back here, it would probably be small, focused on configure-to-order/high-end product and all their material and equipment would be shipped in from overseas. I believe that is the model for their small Sacramento facility but some here might know better.
I was one of the lead automation engineers (Stanford Industrial Engineer who actually went into manufacturing!) on one of the very last high-end branded manufacturing sites in Santa Clara county. By the end the cost of fighting the outsourcing trend was increasingly impossible (read high cost) for mass manufacturing. All of our suppliers were now in China and our first step was to ship everything we needed here.
Now I spend a lot of time working with Chinese companies that do what I used to do and have been into the Foxconn/HonHai Guangzhou/Shenzhen sites building all those iPhones (but not those particular buildings of course!). The thirty-five year trend of moving manufacturing elsewhere will not turn around anytime soon. In most cases now manufacturing is done in areas specializing in the specific niches and deeply engrained into the local support system (high volume IC manufacturing in Taiwan and several other spots, high volume, high end consumer electronics in coastal china, low volume/low cost manufacturing chases the lowest wage rate around the world, etc.
More realistic repatriation goals would be bulky/large items and new manufacturing tech items - basically products where shipping costs are high and we haven't given competitors a 35 year head-start. Watch Tesla and see how they compete - they have both advantages.
When high-tech manufacturing moved out of the US we didn't just move out the branded companies you know, we moved out their suppliers (sheet metal, ICs, Printed Circuit Boards, etc). This also meant we lost the SUPPLIER'S suppliers (plastic molders, raw materials, resin/weave, platers, etc), the equipment makers used by the brand name factories (placement equipment, many semi-conductor equipment manufacturers, Optical inspection, etc), the tool making supporting all of the above (much faster turns and lower cost in China) and the skilled workers and education needed to support everything mentioned.
If Apple moved a factory back here, it would probably be small, focused on configure-to-order/high-end product and all their material and equipment would be shipped in from overseas. I believe that is the model for their small Sacramento facility but some here might know better.
I was one of the lead automation engineers (Stanford Industrial Engineer who actually went into manufacturing!) on one of the very last high-end branded manufacturing sites in Santa Clara county. By the end the cost of fighting the outsourcing trend was increasingly impossible (read high cost) for mass manufacturing. All of our suppliers were now in China and our first step was to ship everything we needed here.
Now I spend a lot of time working with Chinese companies that do what I used to do and have been into the Foxconn/HonHai Guangzhou/Shenzhen sites building all those iPhones (but not those particular buildings of course!). The thirty-five year trend of moving manufacturing elsewhere will not turn around anytime soon. In most cases now manufacturing is done in areas specializing in the specific niches and deeply engrained into the local support system (high volume IC manufacturing in Taiwan and several other spots, high volume, high end consumer electronics in coastal china, low volume/low cost manufacturing chases the lowest wage rate around the world, etc.
More realistic repatriation goals would be bulky/large items and new manufacturing tech items - basically products where shipping costs are high and we haven't given competitors a 35 year head-start. Watch Tesla and see how they compete - they have both advantages.
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
04-10-2020, 01:04 PM
(04-10-2020, 12:45 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: Repatriating Apple build sites is a quixotic goal at this point.
When high-tech manufacturing moved out of the US we didn't just move out the branded companies you know, we moved out their suppliers (sheet metal, ICs, Printed Circuit Boards, etc). WE moved out the suppliers suppliers, the equipment manufacturers used by the brand name factories, the tool making all of the above depend upon and the skilled workers needed to support all of the above.
If Apple moved a factory back here, it would probably be small, focused on configure-to-order/high-end product and all their material would be shipped from China.
I was one of the lead automation engineers (Stanford Industrial Engineer who actually went into manufacturing!) on one of the very last high-end branded manufacturing sites in Santa Clara county. By the end the cost of fighting the outsourcing trend was increasingly impossible (read high cost) for mass manufacturing. Now I spend a lot of time working with Chinese companies that do what I used to do and have been in the Foxconn/HonHai sites building all those iPhones. The thirty-five year trend of moving manufacturing elsewhere will not turn around anytime soon.
More realistic repatriation goals would be bulky/large items and new manufacturing tech items - basically products where shipping costs are high and we haven't given competitors a 35 year head-start. Watch Tesla and see how they compete - they have both advantages.
Thanks for the insight. It is always nice to hear from someone who knows. However, to me, that simply puts the issue into the first-step-journey-of-a-thousand-miles category. Outsourcing has ultimately proved too devastating to US manufacturing operations to be tolerable in the long run. It may be difficult, but we should at least begin the process.
Query: In Michael Lind's book The New Class War: Saving Democracy From the New Managerial Elite, he provides the interesting factoid that the cost to build an IPhone would increase by only $2.00 if manufacturing operations occurred onshore. He provided no source.
I found this hard to believe, but Lind is a maverick thinker I really respect. His refined populism matches my own. (Take a look at the signature below.) I'd like very much to credit the factoid, which is always dangerous. You have to be cautious with what you want to believe.
So . . . do you agree? You're in a position to have an educated opinion.
I wouldn't give you two cents for all your fancy rules if, behind them, they didn't have a little bit of plain, ordinary, everyday kindness - yeah, and a little looking out for the other fella, too.
(04-10-2020, 12:45 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: Repatriating Apple build sites is a quixotic goal at this point.
When high-tech manufacturing moved out of the US we didn't just move out the branded companies you know, we moved out their suppliers (sheet metal, ICs, Printed Circuit Boards, etc). WE moved out the suppliers suppliers, the equipment manufacturers used by the brand name factories, the tool making all of the above depend upon and the skilled workers needed to support all of the above.
If Apple moved a factory back here, it would probably be small, focused on configure-to-order/high-end product and all their material would be shipped from China.
I was one of the lead automation engineers (Stanford Industrial Engineer who actually went into manufacturing!) on one of the very last high-end branded manufacturing sites in Santa Clara county. By the end the cost of fighting the outsourcing trend was increasingly impossible (read high cost) for mass manufacturing. Now I spend a lot of time working with Chinese companies that do what I used to do and have been in the Foxconn/HonHai sites building all those iPhones. The thirty-five year trend of moving manufacturing elsewhere will not turn around anytime soon.
More realistic repatriation goals would be bulky/large items and new manufacturing tech items - basically products where shipping costs are high and we haven't given competitors a 35 year head-start. Watch Tesla and see how they compete - they have both advantages.
Thanks for the insight. It is always nice to hear from someone who knows. However, to me, that simply puts the issue into the first-step-journey-of-a-thousand-miles category. Outsourcing has ultimately proved too devastating to US manufacturing operations to be tolerable in the long run. It may be difficult, but we should at least begin the process.
Query: In Michael Lind's book The New Class War: Saving Democracy From the New Managerial Elite, he provides the interesting factoid that the cost to build an IPhone would increase by only $2.00 if manufacturing operations occurred onshore. He provided no source.
I found this hard to believe, but Lind is a maverick thinker I really respect. His refined populism matches my own. (Take a look at the signature below.) I'd like very much to credit the factoid, which is always dangerous. You have to be cautious with what you want to believe.
So . . . do you agree? You're in a position to have an educated opinion.
I wouldn't give you two cents for all your fancy rules if, behind them, they didn't have a little bit of plain, ordinary, everyday kindness - yeah, and a little looking out for the other fella, too.
04-11-2020, 05:11 AM
(04-10-2020, 12:45 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: Repatriating Apple build sites is a quixotic goal at this point.
When high-tech manufacturing moved out of the US we didn't just move out the branded companies you know, we moved out their suppliers (sheet metal, ICs, Printed Circuit Boards, etc). This also meant we lost the SUPPLIER'S suppliers (plastic molders, raw materials, resin/weave, platers, etc), the equipment makers used by the brand name factories (placement equipment, many semi-conductor equipment manufacturers, Optical inspection, etc), the tool making supporting all of the above (much faster turns and lower cost in China) and the skilled workers and education needed to support everything mentioned.
If Apple moved a factory back here, it would probably be small, focused on configure-to-order/high-end product and all their material and equipment would be shipped in from overseas. I believe that is the model for their small Sacramento facility but some here might know better.
I was one of the lead automation engineers (Stanford Industrial Engineer who actually went into manufacturing!) on one of the very last high-end branded manufacturing sites in Santa Clara county. By the end the cost of fighting the outsourcing trend was increasingly impossible (read high cost) for mass manufacturing. All of our suppliers were now in China and our first step was to ship everything we needed here.
Now I spend a lot of time working with Chinese companies that do what I used to do and have been into the Foxconn/HonHai Guangzhou/Shenzhen sites building all those iPhones (but not those particular buildings of course!). The thirty-five year trend of moving manufacturing elsewhere will not turn around anytime soon. In most cases now manufacturing is done in areas specializing in the specific niches and deeply engrained into the local support system (high volume IC manufacturing in Taiwan and several other spots, high volume, high end consumer electronics in coastal china, low volume/low cost manufacturing chases the lowest wage rate around the world, etc.
More realistic repatriation goals would be bulky/large items and new manufacturing tech items - basically products where shipping costs are high and we haven't given competitors a 35 year head-start. Watch Tesla and see how they compete - they have both advantages.
Your job sounds eerily similar to that of one of my sisters. Large (LARGE) well known American company that builds products in China (not Apple, but she worked there for quite a while back in the Jobs I era). Industrial Engineering degree from Stanford. She was actually in China in January (against my advice). The design work is done in the USA.
(04-10-2020, 12:45 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: Repatriating Apple build sites is a quixotic goal at this point.
When high-tech manufacturing moved out of the US we didn't just move out the branded companies you know, we moved out their suppliers (sheet metal, ICs, Printed Circuit Boards, etc). This also meant we lost the SUPPLIER'S suppliers (plastic molders, raw materials, resin/weave, platers, etc), the equipment makers used by the brand name factories (placement equipment, many semi-conductor equipment manufacturers, Optical inspection, etc), the tool making supporting all of the above (much faster turns and lower cost in China) and the skilled workers and education needed to support everything mentioned.
If Apple moved a factory back here, it would probably be small, focused on configure-to-order/high-end product and all their material and equipment would be shipped in from overseas. I believe that is the model for their small Sacramento facility but some here might know better.
I was one of the lead automation engineers (Stanford Industrial Engineer who actually went into manufacturing!) on one of the very last high-end branded manufacturing sites in Santa Clara county. By the end the cost of fighting the outsourcing trend was increasingly impossible (read high cost) for mass manufacturing. All of our suppliers were now in China and our first step was to ship everything we needed here.
Now I spend a lot of time working with Chinese companies that do what I used to do and have been into the Foxconn/HonHai Guangzhou/Shenzhen sites building all those iPhones (but not those particular buildings of course!). The thirty-five year trend of moving manufacturing elsewhere will not turn around anytime soon. In most cases now manufacturing is done in areas specializing in the specific niches and deeply engrained into the local support system (high volume IC manufacturing in Taiwan and several other spots, high volume, high end consumer electronics in coastal china, low volume/low cost manufacturing chases the lowest wage rate around the world, etc.
More realistic repatriation goals would be bulky/large items and new manufacturing tech items - basically products where shipping costs are high and we haven't given competitors a 35 year head-start. Watch Tesla and see how they compete - they have both advantages.
Your job sounds eerily similar to that of one of my sisters. Large (LARGE) well known American company that builds products in China (not Apple, but she worked there for quite a while back in the Jobs I era). Industrial Engineering degree from Stanford. She was actually in China in January (against my advice). The design work is done in the USA.
Ok .... Quick view of my world through the late 80s, 90s and very early 2000s as a recently minted mid-80s Stanford IE.
My Senior year I joined the company I had interned with - a small but rapidly expanding networking company that would grow from $40M the year prior to my joining and peak just under $10B and then back to ~$400M. I rode with it most of the way up and part of the way down. You learn a lot both ways but going up is much, much more fun.
Initially we outsourced to several small subcontractors that would later merge and become big, big EMS conglomerates. It tended to be expensive and slow (not nimble) so we decided to bring manufacturing inhouse. We grossly underestimated how hard that would be and were pretty lousy at internal manufacturing the first year. Second year we doubled down, got much more professional and were able to eventually move everything in house at higher quality levels and lower cost. Our business doubled twice and our volume was now 10-20x what we started with (prices had decreased so revenue and volume were increasing at separate rates).
We needed to expand rapidly in the early 90s and much of the growth was coming overseas. China was now on the roadmap as a brobdingnagian potential market but still seen as a risky investment - maybe we should choose to work with a nearby and stable country ... like Singapore. We really wanted to be part of the growing European common market as well. Do you build at the current US site, build your own factory overseas near your new customer base or do you go back to subcontracting for your overseas sourcing to reduce risk? We were confident in our own capability so we decided to build factories right sized for the three major markets - US, Europe and China. Reduce logistics, reduce taxation (near 0% for our new factories given government grants, plus payroll help and land use rent free made this an easy choice.). Over the next 5-10 years this was our strategy but then the late 90s internet bubble burst and our top selling product lines shrank. Reducing manufacturing cost was the absolute goal and each factory's existence was questioned and needed to be separately justified.
Plus our Asia plant wasn't in China (Singapore) which was becoming a very high price place for manufacturing. We needed experience with China and our board pointed out correctly that the risk was much lower now, good partners were available and we needed to be in China. During the previous 10 years most of our suppliers had moved to China and the first step in every supply chain became doing as much in China as possible before finishing in the local factories where you still had them. Silicon Valley had closed their very last IC plant (Intel), the once prolific Printed Circuit Board industry in the US had all moved to Asia. Disk Drives were in Thailand and Indonesia (remember Seagate, Shugart and Connor Peripherals were once all here). IC tech was mostly in Taiwan (UMC, TSMC). Coastal China seemed to have an inexhaustible supply of labor coming in from the internal provinces and it had become harder and harder to find skilled workers in the US even slightly interested in manufacturing.
It wasn't just high tech. Television manufacturing and home appliance manufacturing that once dotted Appalachia had also moved out of the US. They moved to Mexico because transferring a TV or washing machine by boat from China is 1000s of times more expensive than an iPhone. For us our labor rates were 8-10x China and even if we used about 50% less for the same jobs the math didn't work out. Plus in the intervening years most companies were now sourcing in the place that focused on manufacturing and provided the best options - and then shipping to the rest of the world. The pendulum had swung from regional manufacturing to choosing the best low cost, focused option and OUTSOURCING rather than owning your own production. And, yeah, that place was often coastal China.
Now when you are looking at large investments to keep up, your future is much less certain than it used to be and lowering cost immediately is the highest priority the cards are stacked against a capital equipment intensive renovation that will take 2-5 years to payoff.
I could go over the analysis here but I'll just summarize. Any good analysis will look at total cost and not just labor. To be honest, the labor differential is discussed most in the press but that is not as big as it used to be and in 2020 is no longer the biggest savings. In most high tech manufacturing analyses materials are a bigger driver so sourcing and combining your volume with the purchasing power of an EMS giant is worth something for small to medium/large companies. Most will buy their A level strategic parts themselves and leave COTs parts to their EMS. While direct labor is a driver you also look at the skilled labor to sustain a large plant and factor in your company's willingness to commit to manufacturing being treated as a strategic differentiator. (Hint - Most high tech companies would prefer to differentiate on tech innovation and design). Against this is the greater logistics cost of shipping from China to your markets and the difficulty of supporting NPI in Asia which often involves sending a large engineering contingent to China for several weeks for each new product. You also want to load factories at capacity and not turn them off which also favors EMS/Subcontractors with multiple customers. At one large company I later worked for 75% of their volume was in 3.5 months of the year with the other 25% spread across the remaining 8.5. Investing in dedicated equipment that would only be busy for 30% of the year is difficult to justify.
I will mention again that everything from plastic molding, printing, packaging, IC production, Printed Circuit Board design, sheetmetal, and COT (common off the shelf) components had moved to Asia during the 18 years I had spent supporting internal manufacturing. We had already moved a big part of our purchasing, component sourcing and planning to Asia just to stay close to our suppliers.
So ... in an uncertain future with a changing product line and smaller commitment from management we now faced a critical decision point. The numbers showed a 30% cost advantage of going to Asia which would also mean shutting down internal factories. As important to the C-Level management was the lower initial investment and lower sensitivity to a changing business model (read that as management's doubt in their future forecasts).
My last two years at that company I shutdown three factories I'd been involved in building from green fields 10-15 years earlier. When I got sick of that, I changed my profession to supporting EMS, working on China to the US logistics and supporting small start-ups that needed someone who really understood manufacturing and NPI. Turns out there are not that many people who have hands-on knowledge in the US any more. While I like small companies most of my old team are working in manufacturing at the big 4 hardware tech companies at higher salaries than we ever got in our rearguard action.
We'd fought a long campaign to keep our internal factories competitive but found when we finally lost that the other side needed us much more than you might have expected.
So can you restart US manufacturing now? Maybe, but you will fight regions that now have a 30 year head start, a skilled workforce that sees manufacturing jobs as the best way to join the middle-class and a network of 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers that no longer exist in the US. Better to win this at the NEXT manufacturing transition, with a technology that is still evolving and for where growing logistics costs work in your favor. Don't try to win with the iPhone which has absolutely none of those three non-Asia advantages.
My Senior year I joined the company I had interned with - a small but rapidly expanding networking company that would grow from $40M the year prior to my joining and peak just under $10B and then back to ~$400M. I rode with it most of the way up and part of the way down. You learn a lot both ways but going up is much, much more fun.
Initially we outsourced to several small subcontractors that would later merge and become big, big EMS conglomerates. It tended to be expensive and slow (not nimble) so we decided to bring manufacturing inhouse. We grossly underestimated how hard that would be and were pretty lousy at internal manufacturing the first year. Second year we doubled down, got much more professional and were able to eventually move everything in house at higher quality levels and lower cost. Our business doubled twice and our volume was now 10-20x what we started with (prices had decreased so revenue and volume were increasing at separate rates).
We needed to expand rapidly in the early 90s and much of the growth was coming overseas. China was now on the roadmap as a brobdingnagian potential market but still seen as a risky investment - maybe we should choose to work with a nearby and stable country ... like Singapore. We really wanted to be part of the growing European common market as well. Do you build at the current US site, build your own factory overseas near your new customer base or do you go back to subcontracting for your overseas sourcing to reduce risk? We were confident in our own capability so we decided to build factories right sized for the three major markets - US, Europe and China. Reduce logistics, reduce taxation (near 0% for our new factories given government grants, plus payroll help and land use rent free made this an easy choice.). Over the next 5-10 years this was our strategy but then the late 90s internet bubble burst and our top selling product lines shrank. Reducing manufacturing cost was the absolute goal and each factory's existence was questioned and needed to be separately justified.
Plus our Asia plant wasn't in China (Singapore) which was becoming a very high price place for manufacturing. We needed experience with China and our board pointed out correctly that the risk was much lower now, good partners were available and we needed to be in China. During the previous 10 years most of our suppliers had moved to China and the first step in every supply chain became doing as much in China as possible before finishing in the local factories where you still had them. Silicon Valley had closed their very last IC plant (Intel), the once prolific Printed Circuit Board industry in the US had all moved to Asia. Disk Drives were in Thailand and Indonesia (remember Seagate, Shugart and Connor Peripherals were once all here). IC tech was mostly in Taiwan (UMC, TSMC). Coastal China seemed to have an inexhaustible supply of labor coming in from the internal provinces and it had become harder and harder to find skilled workers in the US even slightly interested in manufacturing.
It wasn't just high tech. Television manufacturing and home appliance manufacturing that once dotted Appalachia had also moved out of the US. They moved to Mexico because transferring a TV or washing machine by boat from China is 1000s of times more expensive than an iPhone. For us our labor rates were 8-10x China and even if we used about 50% less for the same jobs the math didn't work out. Plus in the intervening years most companies were now sourcing in the place that focused on manufacturing and provided the best options - and then shipping to the rest of the world. The pendulum had swung from regional manufacturing to choosing the best low cost, focused option and OUTSOURCING rather than owning your own production. And, yeah, that place was often coastal China.
Now when you are looking at large investments to keep up, your future is much less certain than it used to be and lowering cost immediately is the highest priority the cards are stacked against a capital equipment intensive renovation that will take 2-5 years to payoff.
I could go over the analysis here but I'll just summarize. Any good analysis will look at total cost and not just labor. To be honest, the labor differential is discussed most in the press but that is not as big as it used to be and in 2020 is no longer the biggest savings. In most high tech manufacturing analyses materials are a bigger driver so sourcing and combining your volume with the purchasing power of an EMS giant is worth something for small to medium/large companies. Most will buy their A level strategic parts themselves and leave COTs parts to their EMS. While direct labor is a driver you also look at the skilled labor to sustain a large plant and factor in your company's willingness to commit to manufacturing being treated as a strategic differentiator. (Hint - Most high tech companies would prefer to differentiate on tech innovation and design). Against this is the greater logistics cost of shipping from China to your markets and the difficulty of supporting NPI in Asia which often involves sending a large engineering contingent to China for several weeks for each new product. You also want to load factories at capacity and not turn them off which also favors EMS/Subcontractors with multiple customers. At one large company I later worked for 75% of their volume was in 3.5 months of the year with the other 25% spread across the remaining 8.5. Investing in dedicated equipment that would only be busy for 30% of the year is difficult to justify.
I will mention again that everything from plastic molding, printing, packaging, IC production, Printed Circuit Board design, sheetmetal, and COT (common off the shelf) components had moved to Asia during the 18 years I had spent supporting internal manufacturing. We had already moved a big part of our purchasing, component sourcing and planning to Asia just to stay close to our suppliers.
So ... in an uncertain future with a changing product line and smaller commitment from management we now faced a critical decision point. The numbers showed a 30% cost advantage of going to Asia which would also mean shutting down internal factories. As important to the C-Level management was the lower initial investment and lower sensitivity to a changing business model (read that as management's doubt in their future forecasts).
My last two years at that company I shutdown three factories I'd been involved in building from green fields 10-15 years earlier. When I got sick of that, I changed my profession to supporting EMS, working on China to the US logistics and supporting small start-ups that needed someone who really understood manufacturing and NPI. Turns out there are not that many people who have hands-on knowledge in the US any more. While I like small companies most of my old team are working in manufacturing at the big 4 hardware tech companies at higher salaries than we ever got in our rearguard action.
We'd fought a long campaign to keep our internal factories competitive but found when we finally lost that the other side needed us much more than you might have expected.
So can you restart US manufacturing now? Maybe, but you will fight regions that now have a 30 year head start, a skilled workforce that sees manufacturing jobs as the best way to join the middle-class and a network of 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers that no longer exist in the US. Better to win this at the NEXT manufacturing transition, with a technology that is still evolving and for where growing logistics costs work in your favor. Don't try to win with the iPhone which has absolutely none of those three non-Asia advantages.
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
Ok .... Quick view of my world through the late 80s, 90s and very early 2000s as a recently minted mid-80s Stanford IE.
My Senior year I joined the company I had interned with - a small but rapidly expanding networking company that would grow from $40M the year prior to my joining and peak just under $10B and then back to ~$400M. I rode with it most of the way up and part of the way down. You learn a lot both ways but going up is much, much more fun.
Initially we outsourced to several small subcontractors that would later merge and become big, big EMS conglomerates. It tended to be expensive and slow (not nimble) so we decided to bring manufacturing inhouse. We grossly underestimated how hard that would be and were pretty lousy at internal manufacturing the first year. Second year we doubled down, got much more professional and were able to eventually move everything in house at higher quality levels and lower cost. Our business doubled twice and our volume was now 10-20x what we started with (prices had decreased so revenue and volume were increasing at separate rates).
We needed to expand rapidly in the early 90s and much of the growth was coming overseas. China was now on the roadmap as a brobdingnagian potential market but still seen as a risky investment - maybe we should choose to work with a nearby and stable country ... like Singapore. We really wanted to be part of the growing European common market as well. Do you build at the current US site, build your own factory overseas near your new customer base or do you go back to subcontracting for your overseas sourcing to reduce risk? We were confident in our own capability so we decided to build factories right sized for the three major markets - US, Europe and China. Reduce logistics, reduce taxation (near 0% for our new factories given government grants, plus payroll help and land use rent free made this an easy choice.). Over the next 5-10 years this was our strategy but then the late 90s internet bubble burst and our top selling product lines shrank. Reducing manufacturing cost was the absolute goal and each factory's existence was questioned and needed to be separately justified.
Plus our Asia plant wasn't in China (Singapore) which was becoming a very high price place for manufacturing. We needed experience with China and our board pointed out correctly that the risk was much lower now, good partners were available and we needed to be in China. During the previous 10 years most of our suppliers had moved to China and the first step in every supply chain became doing as much in China as possible before finishing in the local factories where you still had them. Silicon Valley had closed their very last IC plant (Intel), the once prolific Printed Circuit Board industry in the US had all moved to Asia. Disk Drives were in Thailand and Indonesia (remember Seagate, Shugart and Connor Peripherals were once all here). IC tech was mostly in Taiwan (UMC, TSMC). Coastal China seemed to have an inexhaustible supply of labor coming in from the internal provinces and it had become harder and harder to find skilled workers in the US even slightly interested in manufacturing.
It wasn't just high tech. Television manufacturing and home appliance manufacturing that once dotted Appalachia had also moved out of the US. They moved to Mexico because transferring a TV or washing machine by boat from China is 1000s of times more expensive than an iPhone. For us our labor rates were 8-10x China and even if we used about 50% less for the same jobs the math didn't work out. Plus in the intervening years most companies were now sourcing in the place that focused on manufacturing and provided the best options - and then shipping to the rest of the world. The pendulum had swung from regional manufacturing to choosing the best low cost, focused option and OUTSOURCING rather than owning your own production. And, yeah, that place was often coastal China.
Now when you are looking at large investments to keep up, your future is much less certain than it used to be and lowering cost immediately is the highest priority the cards are stacked against a capital equipment intensive renovation that will take 2-5 years to payoff.
I could go over the analysis here but I'll just summarize. Any good analysis will look at total cost and not just labor. To be honest, the labor differential is discussed most in the press but that is not as big as it used to be and in 2020 is no longer the biggest savings. In most high tech manufacturing analyses materials are a bigger driver so sourcing and combining your volume with the purchasing power of an EMS giant is worth something for small to medium/large companies. Most will buy their A level strategic parts themselves and leave COTs parts to their EMS. While direct labor is a driver you also look at the skilled labor to sustain a large plant and factor in your company's willingness to commit to manufacturing being treated as a strategic differentiator. (Hint - Most high tech companies would prefer to differentiate on tech innovation and design). Against this is the greater logistics cost of shipping from China to your markets and the difficulty of supporting NPI in Asia which often involves sending a large engineering contingent to China for several weeks for each new product. You also want to load factories at capacity and not turn them off which also favors EMS/Subcontractors with multiple customers. At one large company I later worked for 75% of their volume was in 3.5 months of the year with the other 25% spread across the remaining 8.5. Investing in dedicated equipment that would only be busy for 30% of the year is difficult to justify.
I will mention again that everything from plastic molding, printing, packaging, IC production, Printed Circuit Board design, sheetmetal, and COT (common off the shelf) components had moved to Asia during the 18 years I had spent supporting internal manufacturing. We had already moved a big part of our purchasing, component sourcing and planning to Asia just to stay close to our suppliers.
So ... in an uncertain future with a changing product line and smaller commitment from management we now faced a critical decision point. The numbers showed a 30% cost advantage of going to Asia which would also mean shutting down internal factories. As important to the C-Level management was the lower initial investment and lower sensitivity to a changing business model (read that as management's doubt in their future forecasts).
My last two years at that company I shutdown three factories I'd been involved in building from green fields 10-15 years earlier. When I got sick of that, I changed my profession to supporting EMS, working on China to the US logistics and supporting small start-ups that needed someone who really understood manufacturing and NPI. Turns out there are not that many people who have hands-on knowledge in the US any more. While I like small companies most of my old team are working in manufacturing at the big 4 hardware tech companies at higher salaries than we ever got in our rearguard action.
We'd fought a long campaign to keep our internal factories competitive but found when we finally lost that the other side needed us much more than you might have expected.
So can you restart US manufacturing now? Maybe, but you will fight regions that now have a 30 year head start, a skilled workforce that sees manufacturing jobs as the best way to join the middle-class and a network of 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers that no longer exist in the US. Better to win this at the NEXT manufacturing transition, with a technology that is still evolving and for where growing logistics costs work in your favor. Don't try to win with the iPhone which has absolutely none of those three non-Asia advantages.
My Senior year I joined the company I had interned with - a small but rapidly expanding networking company that would grow from $40M the year prior to my joining and peak just under $10B and then back to ~$400M. I rode with it most of the way up and part of the way down. You learn a lot both ways but going up is much, much more fun.
Initially we outsourced to several small subcontractors that would later merge and become big, big EMS conglomerates. It tended to be expensive and slow (not nimble) so we decided to bring manufacturing inhouse. We grossly underestimated how hard that would be and were pretty lousy at internal manufacturing the first year. Second year we doubled down, got much more professional and were able to eventually move everything in house at higher quality levels and lower cost. Our business doubled twice and our volume was now 10-20x what we started with (prices had decreased so revenue and volume were increasing at separate rates).
We needed to expand rapidly in the early 90s and much of the growth was coming overseas. China was now on the roadmap as a brobdingnagian potential market but still seen as a risky investment - maybe we should choose to work with a nearby and stable country ... like Singapore. We really wanted to be part of the growing European common market as well. Do you build at the current US site, build your own factory overseas near your new customer base or do you go back to subcontracting for your overseas sourcing to reduce risk? We were confident in our own capability so we decided to build factories right sized for the three major markets - US, Europe and China. Reduce logistics, reduce taxation (near 0% for our new factories given government grants, plus payroll help and land use rent free made this an easy choice.). Over the next 5-10 years this was our strategy but then the late 90s internet bubble burst and our top selling product lines shrank. Reducing manufacturing cost was the absolute goal and each factory's existence was questioned and needed to be separately justified.
Plus our Asia plant wasn't in China (Singapore) which was becoming a very high price place for manufacturing. We needed experience with China and our board pointed out correctly that the risk was much lower now, good partners were available and we needed to be in China. During the previous 10 years most of our suppliers had moved to China and the first step in every supply chain became doing as much in China as possible before finishing in the local factories where you still had them. Silicon Valley had closed their very last IC plant (Intel), the once prolific Printed Circuit Board industry in the US had all moved to Asia. Disk Drives were in Thailand and Indonesia (remember Seagate, Shugart and Connor Peripherals were once all here). IC tech was mostly in Taiwan (UMC, TSMC). Coastal China seemed to have an inexhaustible supply of labor coming in from the internal provinces and it had become harder and harder to find skilled workers in the US even slightly interested in manufacturing.
It wasn't just high tech. Television manufacturing and home appliance manufacturing that once dotted Appalachia had also moved out of the US. They moved to Mexico because transferring a TV or washing machine by boat from China is 1000s of times more expensive than an iPhone. For us our labor rates were 8-10x China and even if we used about 50% less for the same jobs the math didn't work out. Plus in the intervening years most companies were now sourcing in the place that focused on manufacturing and provided the best options - and then shipping to the rest of the world. The pendulum had swung from regional manufacturing to choosing the best low cost, focused option and OUTSOURCING rather than owning your own production. And, yeah, that place was often coastal China.
Now when you are looking at large investments to keep up, your future is much less certain than it used to be and lowering cost immediately is the highest priority the cards are stacked against a capital equipment intensive renovation that will take 2-5 years to payoff.
I could go over the analysis here but I'll just summarize. Any good analysis will look at total cost and not just labor. To be honest, the labor differential is discussed most in the press but that is not as big as it used to be and in 2020 is no longer the biggest savings. In most high tech manufacturing analyses materials are a bigger driver so sourcing and combining your volume with the purchasing power of an EMS giant is worth something for small to medium/large companies. Most will buy their A level strategic parts themselves and leave COTs parts to their EMS. While direct labor is a driver you also look at the skilled labor to sustain a large plant and factor in your company's willingness to commit to manufacturing being treated as a strategic differentiator. (Hint - Most high tech companies would prefer to differentiate on tech innovation and design). Against this is the greater logistics cost of shipping from China to your markets and the difficulty of supporting NPI in Asia which often involves sending a large engineering contingent to China for several weeks for each new product. You also want to load factories at capacity and not turn them off which also favors EMS/Subcontractors with multiple customers. At one large company I later worked for 75% of their volume was in 3.5 months of the year with the other 25% spread across the remaining 8.5. Investing in dedicated equipment that would only be busy for 30% of the year is difficult to justify.
I will mention again that everything from plastic molding, printing, packaging, IC production, Printed Circuit Board design, sheetmetal, and COT (common off the shelf) components had moved to Asia during the 18 years I had spent supporting internal manufacturing. We had already moved a big part of our purchasing, component sourcing and planning to Asia just to stay close to our suppliers.
So ... in an uncertain future with a changing product line and smaller commitment from management we now faced a critical decision point. The numbers showed a 30% cost advantage of going to Asia which would also mean shutting down internal factories. As important to the C-Level management was the lower initial investment and lower sensitivity to a changing business model (read that as management's doubt in their future forecasts).
My last two years at that company I shutdown three factories I'd been involved in building from green fields 10-15 years earlier. When I got sick of that, I changed my profession to supporting EMS, working on China to the US logistics and supporting small start-ups that needed someone who really understood manufacturing and NPI. Turns out there are not that many people who have hands-on knowledge in the US any more. While I like small companies most of my old team are working in manufacturing at the big 4 hardware tech companies at higher salaries than we ever got in our rearguard action.
We'd fought a long campaign to keep our internal factories competitive but found when we finally lost that the other side needed us much more than you might have expected.
So can you restart US manufacturing now? Maybe, but you will fight regions that now have a 30 year head start, a skilled workforce that sees manufacturing jobs as the best way to join the middle-class and a network of 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers that no longer exist in the US. Better to win this at the NEXT manufacturing transition, with a technology that is still evolving and for where growing logistics costs work in your favor. Don't try to win with the iPhone which has absolutely none of those three non-Asia advantages.
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
04-11-2020, 07:08 PM
Thank you for writing that, Leftcoast. That was incredibly helpful and insightful.
In the mid 90s I used to work on enterprise manufacturing software. Maybe you had the misfortune of using some of the code I wrote, or more likely, maintained. =)
In the mid 90s I used to work on enterprise manufacturing software. Maybe you had the misfortune of using some of the code I wrote, or more likely, maintained. =)
04-11-2020, 10:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-11-2020, 10:57 PM by Genuine Realist.)
Thanks for this, LC. I didn't ask for the info to argue with it. I do have some high concept thoughts, more in the nature of questions, that I'll post tomorrow.
I wouldn't give you two cents for all your fancy rules if, behind them, they didn't have a little bit of plain, ordinary, everyday kindness - yeah, and a little looking out for the other fella, too.
(This post was last modified: 04-11-2020, 10:57 PM by Genuine Realist.)
Thanks for this, LC. I didn't ask for the info to argue with it. I do have some high concept thoughts, more in the nature of questions, that I'll post tomorrow.
I wouldn't give you two cents for all your fancy rules if, behind them, they didn't have a little bit of plain, ordinary, everyday kindness - yeah, and a little looking out for the other fella, too.
I probably DID Snorlax.
I think I’ve used most flavors at one point or another - Oracle, SAP, ASK ManMan among other ERP systems plus their supporting planning, BI and data warehousing tools. Also Agile, Arena and other change management and BOM mgmt tools.
What general area did you work within?
I think I’ve used most flavors at one point or another - Oracle, SAP, ASK ManMan among other ERP systems plus their supporting planning, BI and data warehousing tools. Also Agile, Arena and other change management and BOM mgmt tools.
What general area did you work within?
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
(This post was last modified: 04-11-2020, 11:53 PM by Leftcoast.)
I probably DID Snorlax.
I think I’ve used most flavors at one point or another - Oracle, SAP, ASK ManMan among other ERP systems plus their supporting planning, BI and data warehousing tools. Also Agile, Arena and other change management and BOM mgmt tools.
What general area did you work within?
I think I’ve used most flavors at one point or another - Oracle, SAP, ASK ManMan among other ERP systems plus their supporting planning, BI and data warehousing tools. Also Agile, Arena and other change management and BOM mgmt tools.
What general area did you work within?
In 1938 Neville Chamberlain declared "Peace in our time", Superman first appeared in Action Comics, Seabiscuit beat War Admiral ....... and C.a.l last won the Rose Bowl.
04-12-2020, 02:41 AM
(04-11-2020, 11:43 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: I probably DID Snorlax.Yeah it sounds like you probably have used a product I at least maintained. I’d describe my work with a bug I once identified:
I think I’ve used most flavors at one point or another - Oracle, SAP, ASK ManMan among other ERP systems plus their supporting planning, BI and data warehousing tools. Also Agile, Arena and other change management and BOM mgmt tools.
What general area did you work within?
Our software was used by enterprises for manufacturing, and once I noticed a logical error in the integration between order entry and manufacturing — when the software would select which custom ordered product to build, it’d match the customer id, the item id at the top of the bill of materials, and the number items in the entire bom. I pointed out we should fix it, because you need to compare two entire boms to determine whether two custom orders were in fact identical. They asked me how it could come up — i told them I could order, say, a high-end PC with the maxed out, most expensive options, today, maybe 5 1 TB SSD drives. Then if I canceled that order, and ordered the same model with the same number of options — say 5 128 MB SSD drives, i would be charged for the cheaper
Configuration, but when they pulled up the BOM in assembly, the code would incorrectly match the first order because it had the same customer, the same top level item id, and the same number of total items. I was tempted to exploit the bug by ordering a maxed out system myself, just out of a sense of mischief, but of course I never did.
There is so much sloppy, lazy, not thought through code out there, it’s a miracle planes are able to stay in the air.
(04-11-2020, 11:43 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: I probably DID Snorlax.Yeah it sounds like you probably have used a product I at least maintained. I’d describe my work with a bug I once identified:
I think I’ve used most flavors at one point or another - Oracle, SAP, ASK ManMan among other ERP systems plus their supporting planning, BI and data warehousing tools. Also Agile, Arena and other change management and BOM mgmt tools.
What general area did you work within?
Our software was used by enterprises for manufacturing, and once I noticed a logical error in the integration between order entry and manufacturing — when the software would select which custom ordered product to build, it’d match the customer id, the item id at the top of the bill of materials, and the number items in the entire bom. I pointed out we should fix it, because you need to compare two entire boms to determine whether two custom orders were in fact identical. They asked me how it could come up — i told them I could order, say, a high-end PC with the maxed out, most expensive options, today, maybe 5 1 TB SSD drives. Then if I canceled that order, and ordered the same model with the same number of options — say 5 128 MB SSD drives, i would be charged for the cheaper
Configuration, but when they pulled up the BOM in assembly, the code would incorrectly match the first order because it had the same customer, the same top level item id, and the same number of total items. I was tempted to exploit the bug by ordering a maxed out system myself, just out of a sense of mischief, but of course I never did.
There is so much sloppy, lazy, not thought through code out there, it’s a miracle planes are able to stay in the air.
04-12-2020, 06:47 AM
I realize thread drift happens a lot around there, but this one has drifted too far.
It was suppose to be about testing and contact tracing, and now somehow it is a full-blown thread about manufacturing in China?
Can the mods maybe move all the posts about manufacturing into the "Japan pulling out of China" thread I started for that kind of discussion? We all acknowledge testing and contact tracing is of paramount importance. It would be nice if this thread could be dedicated to what the Apple-Google partnership is all about and how it is evolving.
It was suppose to be about testing and contact tracing, and now somehow it is a full-blown thread about manufacturing in China?
Can the mods maybe move all the posts about manufacturing into the "Japan pulling out of China" thread I started for that kind of discussion? We all acknowledge testing and contact tracing is of paramount importance. It would be nice if this thread could be dedicated to what the Apple-Google partnership is all about and how it is evolving.
I realize thread drift happens a lot around there, but this one has drifted too far.
It was suppose to be about testing and contact tracing, and now somehow it is a full-blown thread about manufacturing in China?
Can the mods maybe move all the posts about manufacturing into the "Japan pulling out of China" thread I started for that kind of discussion? We all acknowledge testing and contact tracing is of paramount importance. It would be nice if this thread could be dedicated to what the Apple-Google partnership is all about and how it is evolving.
It was suppose to be about testing and contact tracing, and now somehow it is a full-blown thread about manufacturing in China?
Can the mods maybe move all the posts about manufacturing into the "Japan pulling out of China" thread I started for that kind of discussion? We all acknowledge testing and contact tracing is of paramount importance. It would be nice if this thread could be dedicated to what the Apple-Google partnership is all about and how it is evolving.
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