[76lsjumb]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

People who need to loudly assert that they are a particular desirable trait often feel the need to do so for a reason. In my experience, genuine character speaks for itself. When was the last time Fauci said "I'm really good at epidemiology?" Has Warren Buffett ever needed to brag about his financial acumen? Etc.

So now personal attacks on other CardBoard posters are okay? Or is Mr Flores Jr simply on vacation?

[76lsjumb]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

People who need to loudly assert that they are a particular desirable trait often feel the need to do so for a reason. In my experience, genuine character speaks for itself. When was the last time Fauci said "I'm really good at epidemiology?" Has Warren Buffett ever needed to brag about his financial acumen? Etc.

So now personal attacks on other CardBoard posters are okay? Or is Mr Flores Jr simply on vacation?

[Snorlax94]

[quote="burger" pid='283294' dateline='1592367740']
120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

People who need to loudly assert that they are a particular desirable trait often feel the need to do so for a reason. In my experience, genuine character speaks for itself. When was the last time Fauci said "I'm really good at epidemiology?" Has Warren Buffett ever needed to brag about his financial acumen? Etc.

So now personal attacks on other CardBoard posters are okay? Or is Mr Flores Jr simply on vacation?

The problem with being an opponent of Trump the Man is all you suckers who believe in Trump the Demon keep obscuring the actual reality.

Perhaps he was merely referring to people in general and no one in particular after being called a “sucker.”

Now that the other board is dead, maybe some people are agitating for this board to suffer the same fate.

[Snorlax94]

[quote="burger" pid='283294' dateline='1592367740']
120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

People who need to loudly assert that they are a particular desirable trait often feel the need to do so for a reason. In my experience, genuine character speaks for itself. When was the last time Fauci said "I'm really good at epidemiology?" Has Warren Buffett ever needed to brag about his financial acumen? Etc.

So now personal attacks on other CardBoard posters are okay? Or is Mr Flores Jr simply on vacation?

The problem with being an opponent of Trump the Man is all you suckers who believe in Trump the Demon keep obscuring the actual reality.

Perhaps he was merely referring to people in general and no one in particular after being called a “sucker.”

Now that the other board is dead, maybe some people are agitating for this board to suffer the same fate.

[fullmetal]

The stock market is really just rich people feelings.  If the rush to re-open provides enough sparks of hope, investor sentiment might be enough to dampen the reality of the body count.

I mean, did you see what happened Sunday with the announcement of Beijing's covid cluster?  Dow futures understandably tanked, but come Monday, it was a steady increase back into the black.  American optimism...or maybe sidelined money jumping back in to grab some value, and all this despite some of the worst unemployment numbers in history.

[fullmetal]

The stock market is really just rich people feelings.  If the rush to re-open provides enough sparks of hope, investor sentiment might be enough to dampen the reality of the body count.

I mean, did you see what happened Sunday with the announcement of Beijing's covid cluster?  Dow futures understandably tanked, but come Monday, it was a steady increase back into the black.  American optimism...or maybe sidelined money jumping back in to grab some value, and all this despite some of the worst unemployment numbers in history.

[OutsiderFan]

For what it's worth, in Paul Krugman's latest email newsletter, he attributes recent market increases to amateur, former sport-betting "retail bros".

He gave about as clear of a"sell" signal as I see him make -- the last time he wrote a column like this was around March 2008.

I gather you're talking about a different Paul Krugman than the one who wrote this in 11/2016:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/proj...night-2016

He retracted that a couple of days later: https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/1...-long-haul

Did Trump ever retract his statement that the virus was a hoax?

Trump never actually said that. 

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/democr...x-comment/

The problem with being an opponent of Trump the Man is all you suckers who believe in Trump the Demon keep obscuring the actual reality.

OK, I have held back the full force of my intellectual outrage for comments like this, but not any more.  GR, your position is about to be skewered. But it does come with an olive branch. Enjoy...

It has become clear that people who carry the water for a POTUS with Swiss Cheese for a brain, who fits every definition of a malignant narcissist psychopath, who has no peer when it comes to executive incompetence, and those who defend racism while not defending racism, have something glaring in common. This is they are totally incapable of defending actions and so embarrassed to admit their prejudice, insecurity and fear of the other, that they can’t argue the substance of anything. They resort to arguing about the most obscure details of things said, pull them into their own context, in a truly embarrassing attempt to discredit others and invalidate not the substance of ideas, but meaningless, and I do meaningless details that miss larger pictures that absolutely dwarf what is argued.

Just today, I saw people defending racism by claiming they don’t liKe being told how to feel about athletes standing up for their rights as humans. Claimed that a reporter’s story reporting on what is happening in college football was presenting “one side” of the issue, as if there is some alternate reality where athletes aren’t using their influence to effect changes. That’s an example of pulling something into own context to claim upset with the messenger, when really being upset with the message. It’s transparent deflection in lieu of any ability to put on your big boy pants, own your feelings, and say you are white and afraid of everyone having equal rights. Don’t insult people’s intelligence with such transparent deflection.

Also yesterday, Senator Tim Kaine made a really thoughtful statement on the Senate floor. It was about slavery in America, how it started in his state of Virginia, and how in state government they would pass bills then argue over who should get credit, while in the current U.S. Senate, they don’t do anything, then try blaming people for what goes wrong when they didn’t act. It wasn’t even a political statement, just facts and expressing his hope that the protesting we see now may lead to the Senate actually taking action. What happened? Right wing bomb throwers claimed Kaine was saying the U.S. invented slavery, totally taking what he said out of context to call him stupid like all Democrats. I guarantee you most everyone making complete fools of themselves with their ignorant comments based on hijacking what Kaine said into their own bullshit narrative didn’t bother listening to what Kaine said. Every American should hear it, because everything he said was 100% truth. 

This brings me to the “he never said it was a hoax” straw at which GR grasps. I guess it works both ways. Those who want to deny reality and live in fear of truth will not only take strong points others make into their own context and try to nit pick some minor detail to discredit someone. They will also nit pick some minor detail to build a defense for a totally indefensible larger context. Let’s argue about who spilled red wine on the carpet while the whole house is in fire? Really? The U.S. Covid-19 disaster is so bad and been managed so terribly, that anyone trying to claim some intellectual high ground by pointing out such a minor detail about what someone said about it, simply cannot be taken seriously about anything, ever. The inability to defend the indefensible has gotten people to a point they are willing to die on hills of metaphorical bullshit that have no value as intellectual bulwarks to arguments and expose the people willing to die on them as just plain sick. As I switch metaphors, think of these weak defenses like melting ice pieces in a warming Arctic. Sure you might be able to hop on one to avoid being in the ocean of reality for a little while, but the melting isn’t stopping and people look really dumb trying to stay on their collapsing ice positions while they are slowly submerged. 

As someone living in the reality ocean, I can tell you it sucks, but at the same time, I’m not dying either. I’m trying to adapt to it as best I can, but the fact is those of us in it need more people to join us so we can work together and figure out how to thrive in it. Trying to avoid it by climbing on the melting ice pieces only delays when you will be adapted to comfortably live in reality. What are you and others so god damned afraid of about being in reality exactly?

[OutsiderFan]

For what it's worth, in Paul Krugman's latest email newsletter, he attributes recent market increases to amateur, former sport-betting "retail bros".

He gave about as clear of a"sell" signal as I see him make -- the last time he wrote a column like this was around March 2008.

I gather you're talking about a different Paul Krugman than the one who wrote this in 11/2016:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/proj...night-2016

He retracted that a couple of days later: https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/1...-long-haul

Did Trump ever retract his statement that the virus was a hoax?

Trump never actually said that. 

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/democr...x-comment/

The problem with being an opponent of Trump the Man is all you suckers who believe in Trump the Demon keep obscuring the actual reality.

OK, I have held back the full force of my intellectual outrage for comments like this, but not any more.  GR, your position is about to be skewered. But it does come with an olive branch. Enjoy...

It has become clear that people who carry the water for a POTUS with Swiss Cheese for a brain, who fits every definition of a malignant narcissist psychopath, who has no peer when it comes to executive incompetence, and those who defend racism while not defending racism, have something glaring in common. This is they are totally incapable of defending actions and so embarrassed to admit their prejudice, insecurity and fear of the other, that they can’t argue the substance of anything. They resort to arguing about the most obscure details of things said, pull them into their own context, in a truly embarrassing attempt to discredit others and invalidate not the substance of ideas, but meaningless, and I do meaningless details that miss larger pictures that absolutely dwarf what is argued.

Just today, I saw people defending racism by claiming they don’t liKe being told how to feel about athletes standing up for their rights as humans. Claimed that a reporter’s story reporting on what is happening in college football was presenting “one side” of the issue, as if there is some alternate reality where athletes aren’t using their influence to effect changes. That’s an example of pulling something into own context to claim upset with the messenger, when really being upset with the message. It’s transparent deflection in lieu of any ability to put on your big boy pants, own your feelings, and say you are white and afraid of everyone having equal rights. Don’t insult people’s intelligence with such transparent deflection.

Also yesterday, Senator Tim Kaine made a really thoughtful statement on the Senate floor. It was about slavery in America, how it started in his state of Virginia, and how in state government they would pass bills then argue over who should get credit, while in the current U.S. Senate, they don’t do anything, then try blaming people for what goes wrong when they didn’t act. It wasn’t even a political statement, just facts and expressing his hope that the protesting we see now may lead to the Senate actually taking action. What happened? Right wing bomb throwers claimed Kaine was saying the U.S. invented slavery, totally taking what he said out of context to call him stupid like all Democrats. I guarantee you most everyone making complete fools of themselves with their ignorant comments based on hijacking what Kaine said into their own bullshit narrative didn’t bother listening to what Kaine said. Every American should hear it, because everything he said was 100% truth. 

This brings me to the “he never said it was a hoax” straw at which GR grasps. I guess it works both ways. Those who want to deny reality and live in fear of truth will not only take strong points others make into their own context and try to nit pick some minor detail to discredit someone. They will also nit pick some minor detail to build a defense for a totally indefensible larger context. Let’s argue about who spilled red wine on the carpet while the whole house is in fire? Really? The U.S. Covid-19 disaster is so bad and been managed so terribly, that anyone trying to claim some intellectual high ground by pointing out such a minor detail about what someone said about it, simply cannot be taken seriously about anything, ever. The inability to defend the indefensible has gotten people to a point they are willing to die on hills of metaphorical bullshit that have no value as intellectual bulwarks to arguments and expose the people willing to die on them as just plain sick. As I switch metaphors, think of these weak defenses like melting ice pieces in a warming Arctic. Sure you might be able to hop on one to avoid being in the ocean of reality for a little while, but the melting isn’t stopping and people look really dumb trying to stay on their collapsing ice positions while they are slowly submerged. 

As someone living in the reality ocean, I can tell you it sucks, but at the same time, I’m not dying either. I’m trying to adapt to it as best I can, but the fact is those of us in it need more people to join us so we can work together and figure out how to thrive in it. Trying to avoid it by climbing on the melting ice pieces only delays when you will be adapted to comfortably live in reality. What are you and others so god damned afraid of about being in reality exactly?

[Mick]

OK, I have held back the full force of my intellectual outrage for comments like this, but not any more.  GR, your position is about to be skewered. But it does come with an olive branch. Enjoy...

It has become clear that people who carry the water for a POTUS with Swiss Cheese for a brain, who fits every definition of a malignant narcissist psychopath, who has no peer when it comes to executive incompetence, and those who defend racism while not defending racism, have something glaring in common. This is they are totally incapable of defending actions and so embarrassed to admit their prejudice, insecurity and fear of the other, that they can’t argue the substance of anything. They resort to arguing about the most obscure details of things said, pull them into their own context, in a truly embarrassing attempt to discredit others and invalidate not the substance of ideas, but meaningless, and I do meaningless details that miss larger pictures that absolutely dwarf what is argued.

Just today, I saw people defending racism by claiming they don’t liKe being told how to feel about athletes standing up for their rights as humans. Claimed that a reporter’s story reporting on what is happening in college football was presenting “one side” of the issue, as if there is some alternate reality where athletes aren’t using their influence to effect changes. That’s an example of pulling something into own context to claim upset with the messenger, when really being upset with the message. It’s transparent deflection in lieu of any ability to put on your big boy pants, own your feelings, and say you are white and afraid of everyone having equal rights. Don’t insult people’s intelligence with such transparent deflection.

Also yesterday, Senator Tim Kaine made a really thoughtful statement on the Senate floor. It was about slavery in America, how it started in his state of Virginia, and how in state government they would pass bills then argue over who should get credit, while in the current U.S. Senate, they don’t do anything, then try blaming people for what goes wrong when they didn’t act. It wasn’t even a political statement, just facts and expressing his hope that the protesting we see now may lead to the Senate actually taking action. What happened? Right wing bomb throwers claimed Kaine was saying the U.S. invented slavery, totally taking what he said out of context to call him stupid like all Democrats. I guarantee you most everyone making complete fools of themselves with their ignorant comments based on hijacking what Kaine said into their own bullshit narrative didn’t bother listening to what Kaine said. Every American should hear it, because everything he said was 100% truth. 

This brings me to the “he never said it was a hoax” straw at which GR grasps. I guess it works both ways. Those who want to deny reality and live in fear of truth will not only take strong points others make into their own context and try to nit pick some minor detail to discredit someone. They will also nit pick some minor detail to build a defense for a totally indefensible larger context. Let’s argue about who spilled red wine on the carpet while the whole house is in fire? Really? The U.S. Covid-19 disaster is so bad and been managed so terribly, that anyone trying to claim some intellectual high ground by pointing out such a minor detail about what someone said about it, simply cannot be taken seriously about anything, ever. The inability to defend the indefensible has gotten people to a point they are willing to die on hills of metaphorical bullshit that have no value as intellectual bulwarks to arguments and expose the people willing to die on them as just plain sick. As I switch metaphors, think of these weak defenses like melting ice pieces in a warming Arctic. Sure you might be able to hop on one to avoid being in the ocean of reality for a little while, but the melting isn’t stopping and people look really dumb trying to stay on their collapsing ice positions while they are slowly submerged. 

As someone living in the reality ocean, I can tell you it sucks, but at the same time, I’m not dying either. I’m trying to adapt to it as best I can, but the fact is those of us in it need more people to join us so we can work together and figure out how to thrive in it. Trying to avoid it by climbing on the melting ice pieces only delays when you will be adapted to comfortably live in reality. What are you and others so god damned afraid of about being in reality exactly?

Looking for the olive branch... ;)

BTW, I've thought for months that Warren was Biden's only logical choice for VP. He needs her progressive voters and needs them to show up, that's what she represents. And she's trying her hardest to appeal to the African American community.

https://apnews.com/deae262c0c22217cadc446affa4f4705

And she's had lots of praise from senior African American leaders:

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/politi...66952.html

[Mick]

OK, I have held back the full force of my intellectual outrage for comments like this, but not any more.  GR, your position is about to be skewered. But it does come with an olive branch. Enjoy...

It has become clear that people who carry the water for a POTUS with Swiss Cheese for a brain, who fits every definition of a malignant narcissist psychopath, who has no peer when it comes to executive incompetence, and those who defend racism while not defending racism, have something glaring in common. This is they are totally incapable of defending actions and so embarrassed to admit their prejudice, insecurity and fear of the other, that they can’t argue the substance of anything. They resort to arguing about the most obscure details of things said, pull them into their own context, in a truly embarrassing attempt to discredit others and invalidate not the substance of ideas, but meaningless, and I do meaningless details that miss larger pictures that absolutely dwarf what is argued.

Just today, I saw people defending racism by claiming they don’t liKe being told how to feel about athletes standing up for their rights as humans. Claimed that a reporter’s story reporting on what is happening in college football was presenting “one side” of the issue, as if there is some alternate reality where athletes aren’t using their influence to effect changes. That’s an example of pulling something into own context to claim upset with the messenger, when really being upset with the message. It’s transparent deflection in lieu of any ability to put on your big boy pants, own your feelings, and say you are white and afraid of everyone having equal rights. Don’t insult people’s intelligence with such transparent deflection.

Also yesterday, Senator Tim Kaine made a really thoughtful statement on the Senate floor. It was about slavery in America, how it started in his state of Virginia, and how in state government they would pass bills then argue over who should get credit, while in the current U.S. Senate, they don’t do anything, then try blaming people for what goes wrong when they didn’t act. It wasn’t even a political statement, just facts and expressing his hope that the protesting we see now may lead to the Senate actually taking action. What happened? Right wing bomb throwers claimed Kaine was saying the U.S. invented slavery, totally taking what he said out of context to call him stupid like all Democrats. I guarantee you most everyone making complete fools of themselves with their ignorant comments based on hijacking what Kaine said into their own bullshit narrative didn’t bother listening to what Kaine said. Every American should hear it, because everything he said was 100% truth. 

This brings me to the “he never said it was a hoax” straw at which GR grasps. I guess it works both ways. Those who want to deny reality and live in fear of truth will not only take strong points others make into their own context and try to nit pick some minor detail to discredit someone. They will also nit pick some minor detail to build a defense for a totally indefensible larger context. Let’s argue about who spilled red wine on the carpet while the whole house is in fire? Really? The U.S. Covid-19 disaster is so bad and been managed so terribly, that anyone trying to claim some intellectual high ground by pointing out such a minor detail about what someone said about it, simply cannot be taken seriously about anything, ever. The inability to defend the indefensible has gotten people to a point they are willing to die on hills of metaphorical bullshit that have no value as intellectual bulwarks to arguments and expose the people willing to die on them as just plain sick. As I switch metaphors, think of these weak defenses like melting ice pieces in a warming Arctic. Sure you might be able to hop on one to avoid being in the ocean of reality for a little while, but the melting isn’t stopping and people look really dumb trying to stay on their collapsing ice positions while they are slowly submerged. 

As someone living in the reality ocean, I can tell you it sucks, but at the same time, I’m not dying either. I’m trying to adapt to it as best I can, but the fact is those of us in it need more people to join us so we can work together and figure out how to thrive in it. Trying to avoid it by climbing on the melting ice pieces only delays when you will be adapted to comfortably live in reality. What are you and others so god damned afraid of about being in reality exactly?

Looking for the olive branch... ;)

BTW, I've thought for months that Warren was Biden's only logical choice for VP. He needs her progressive voters and needs them to show up, that's what she represents. And she's trying her hardest to appeal to the African American community.

https://apnews.com/deae262c0c22217cadc446affa4f4705

And she's had lots of praise from senior African American leaders:

https://www.heraldonline.com/news/politi...66952.html

[Genuine Realist]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

I'm a pretty firm opponent of Trump the Man - a narcissistic nativist, whose deliberately divisive style has definitely furthered the polarization of American politics. I didn't vote for him in 2016, will vote for Biden in 2020, regardless of VP choice, and contributed to Andrew Yang's campaign for reasons BC can guess.

Trump the Demon? The monster possessed of every imaginable vice, no discernible virtue, who revels in human misery and works ceaselessly for the triumph of evil? No, I do not believe in that person. In fact, the caricature and its perpetration are very helpful to the cause of Trump the Man, because it leads the opposition into absurdity. I lived through a full-scale demonization once before in my lifetime (Lyndon Johnson) and a minor league one (George Bush) two decades ago. They don't work. Frenzied hysteria does no one any good.

Like it or not, Trump the Man did not refer to the virus as a hoax. His opposition, relying on the complete suspension of critical faculties of so many opponents, misquoted him deliberately. They are mendacious, not Trump. That doesn't make Trump the Man any less an unworthy President. It does make them liars.

Attributing the 120,000 dead to Trump personally reminds me so much of Vietnam War propaganda that just led nowhere. Yes, burger - if only the nation had elected HRC, there'd be no dead and everyone would be enjoying cakes and ale. I posted a line that caused an uproar, to the effect that the US response wasn't all that different from most Western nations, including the much hallowed Germany. I doubt it would have been all that different with HRC.

Attributing a measure of reality and common sense to Trump does not make him any less a lousy President. It's really not that hard.

I used to believe in witches and hobgoblins, burger. But then I turned seven and I stopped.

(BTW, BC is right that the GR tag goes back to 1998, and exasperation with the poster known as Long Winded on The Bootleg, who knew little or nothing about college football recruiting at that time. I like it, though, and have stayed with it. I don't mean it to show any superior political wisdom. However, bringing a political opponent to ordinary human dimensions seems to me the essence of wisdom. Those of you who want to continue to believe in Trump the Demon are going to continue to do so, and not much I do. But it is not useful. Statements with negative truth value - i.e., 'Trump called Covid-19 a hoax ' - almost never are.)

[Genuine Realist]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

I'm a pretty firm opponent of Trump the Man - a narcissistic nativist, whose deliberately divisive style has definitely furthered the polarization of American politics. I didn't vote for him in 2016, will vote for Biden in 2020, regardless of VP choice, and contributed to Andrew Yang's campaign for reasons BC can guess.

Trump the Demon? The monster possessed of every imaginable vice, no discernible virtue, who revels in human misery and works ceaselessly for the triumph of evil? No, I do not believe in that person. In fact, the caricature and its perpetration are very helpful to the cause of Trump the Man, because it leads the opposition into absurdity. I lived through a full-scale demonization once before in my lifetime (Lyndon Johnson) and a minor league one (George Bush) two decades ago. They don't work. Frenzied hysteria does no one any good.

Like it or not, Trump the Man did not refer to the virus as a hoax. His opposition, relying on the complete suspension of critical faculties of so many opponents, misquoted him deliberately. They are mendacious, not Trump. That doesn't make Trump the Man any less an unworthy President. It does make them liars.

Attributing the 120,000 dead to Trump personally reminds me so much of Vietnam War propaganda that just led nowhere. Yes, burger - if only the nation had elected HRC, there'd be no dead and everyone would be enjoying cakes and ale. I posted a line that caused an uproar, to the effect that the US response wasn't all that different from most Western nations, including the much hallowed Germany. I doubt it would have been all that different with HRC.

Attributing a measure of reality and common sense to Trump does not make him any less a lousy President. It's really not that hard.

I used to believe in witches and hobgoblins, burger. But then I turned seven and I stopped.

(BTW, BC is right that the GR tag goes back to 1998, and exasperation with the poster known as Long Winded on The Bootleg, who knew little or nothing about college football recruiting at that time. I like it, though, and have stayed with it. I don't mean it to show any superior political wisdom. However, bringing a political opponent to ordinary human dimensions seems to me the essence of wisdom. Those of you who want to continue to believe in Trump the Demon are going to continue to do so, and not much I do. But it is not useful. Statements with negative truth value - i.e., 'Trump called Covid-19 a hoax ' - almost never are.)

[burger]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  



Not much of a realist, are you.

I'm a pretty firm opponent of Trump the Man - a narcissistic nativist, whose deliberately divisive style has definitely furthered the polarization of American politics. I didn't vote for him in 2016, will vote for Biden in 2020, regardless of VP choice, and contributed to Andrew Yang's campaign for reasons BC can guess.



Trump the Demon? The monster possessed of every imaginable vice, no discernible virtue, who revels in human misery and works ceaselessly for the triumph of evil? No, I do not believe in that person. In fact, the caricature and its perpetration are very helpful to the cause of Trump the Man, because it leads the opposition into absurdity. I lived through a full-scale demonization once before in my lifetime (Lyndon Johnson) and a minor league one (George Bush) two decades ago. They don't work. Frenzied hysteria does no one any good.



Like it or not, Trump the Man did not refer to the virus as a hoax. His opposition, relying on the complete suspension of critical faculties of so many opponents, misquoted him deliberately. They are mendacious, not Trump. That doesn't make Trump the Man any less an unworthy President. It does make them liars.



Attributing the 120,000 dead to Trump personally reminds me so much of Vietnam War propaganda that just led nowhere. Yes, burger - if only the nation had elected HRC, there'd be no dead and everyone would be enjoying cakes and ale. I posted a line that caused an uproar, to the effect that the US response wasn't all that different from most Western nations, including the much hallowed Germany. I doubt it would have been all that different with HRC.



Attributing a measure of reality and common sense to Trump does not make him any less a lousy President. It's really not that hard.



I used to believe in witches and hobgoblins, burger. But then I turned seven and I stopped.



(BTW, BC is right that the GR tag goes back to 1998, and exasperation with the poster known as Long Winded on The Bootleg, who knew little or nothing about college football recruiting at that time. I like it, though, and have stayed with it. I don't mean it to show any superior political wisdom. However, bringing a political opponent to ordinary human dimensions seems to me the essence of wisdom. Those of you who want to continue to believe in Trump the Demon are going to continue to do so, and not much I do. But it is not useful. Statements with negative truth value - i.e., 'Trump called Covid-19 a hoax ' - almost never are.)

GR, you are so far divorced from reality, that I'm not going to bother with a real response.  You are fixating on the hoax comment while ignoring the dozens of other statements from Trump playing down and lying about the virus.  You are just making things up about a hypothetical Clinton presidency.  And you are pretending like Trump and his people did their best when they essentially did nothing and screwed up at every opportunity.  Outcomes in almost every other developed country have been better than in the US.

"Negative truth value."  As if.  Must be nice living in a bubble.

[burger]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  



Not much of a realist, are you.

I'm a pretty firm opponent of Trump the Man - a narcissistic nativist, whose deliberately divisive style has definitely furthered the polarization of American politics. I didn't vote for him in 2016, will vote for Biden in 2020, regardless of VP choice, and contributed to Andrew Yang's campaign for reasons BC can guess.



Trump the Demon? The monster possessed of every imaginable vice, no discernible virtue, who revels in human misery and works ceaselessly for the triumph of evil? No, I do not believe in that person. In fact, the caricature and its perpetration are very helpful to the cause of Trump the Man, because it leads the opposition into absurdity. I lived through a full-scale demonization once before in my lifetime (Lyndon Johnson) and a minor league one (George Bush) two decades ago. They don't work. Frenzied hysteria does no one any good.



Like it or not, Trump the Man did not refer to the virus as a hoax. His opposition, relying on the complete suspension of critical faculties of so many opponents, misquoted him deliberately. They are mendacious, not Trump. That doesn't make Trump the Man any less an unworthy President. It does make them liars.



Attributing the 120,000 dead to Trump personally reminds me so much of Vietnam War propaganda that just led nowhere. Yes, burger - if only the nation had elected HRC, there'd be no dead and everyone would be enjoying cakes and ale. I posted a line that caused an uproar, to the effect that the US response wasn't all that different from most Western nations, including the much hallowed Germany. I doubt it would have been all that different with HRC.



Attributing a measure of reality and common sense to Trump does not make him any less a lousy President. It's really not that hard.



I used to believe in witches and hobgoblins, burger. But then I turned seven and I stopped.



(BTW, BC is right that the GR tag goes back to 1998, and exasperation with the poster known as Long Winded on The Bootleg, who knew little or nothing about college football recruiting at that time. I like it, though, and have stayed with it. I don't mean it to show any superior political wisdom. However, bringing a political opponent to ordinary human dimensions seems to me the essence of wisdom. Those of you who want to continue to believe in Trump the Demon are going to continue to do so, and not much I do. But it is not useful. Statements with negative truth value - i.e., 'Trump called Covid-19 a hoax ' - almost never are.)

GR, you are so far divorced from reality, that I'm not going to bother with a real response.  You are fixating on the hoax comment while ignoring the dozens of other statements from Trump playing down and lying about the virus.  You are just making things up about a hypothetical Clinton presidency.  And you are pretending like Trump and his people did their best when they essentially did nothing and screwed up at every opportunity.  Outcomes in almost every other developed country have been better than in the US.

"Negative truth value."  As if.  Must be nice living in a bubble.

[Genuine Realist]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  



Not much of a realist, are you.

I'm a pretty firm opponent of Trump the Man - a narcissistic nativist, whose deliberately divisive style has definitely furthered the polarization of American politics. I didn't vote for him in 2016, will vote for Biden in 2020, regardless of VP choice, and contributed to Andrew Yang's campaign for reasons BC can guess.



Trump the Demon? The monster possessed of every imaginable vice, no discernible virtue, who revels in human misery and works ceaselessly for the triumph of evil? No, I do not believe in that person. In fact, the caricature and its perpetration are very helpful to the cause of Trump the Man, because it leads the opposition into absurdity. I lived through a full-scale demonization once before in my lifetime (Lyndon Johnson) and a minor league one (George Bush) two decades ago. They don't work. Frenzied hysteria does no one any good.



Like it or not, Trump the Man did not refer to the virus as a hoax. His opposition, relying on the complete suspension of critical faculties of so many opponents, misquoted him deliberately. They are mendacious, not Trump. That doesn't make Trump the Man any less an unworthy President. It does make them liars.



Attributing the 120,000 dead to Trump personally reminds me so much of Vietnam War propaganda that just led nowhere. Yes, burger - if only the nation had elected HRC, there'd be no dead and everyone would be enjoying cakes and ale. I posted a line that caused an uproar, to the effect that the US response wasn't all that different from most Western nations, including the much hallowed Germany. I doubt it would have been all that different with HRC.



Attributing a measure of reality and common sense to Trump does not make him any less a lousy President. It's really not that hard.



I used to believe in witches and hobgoblins, burger. But then I turned seven and I stopped.



(BTW, BC is right that the GR tag goes back to 1998, and exasperation with the poster known as Long Winded on The Bootleg, who knew little or nothing about college football recruiting at that time. I like it, though, and have stayed with it. I don't mean it to show any superior political wisdom. However, bringing a political opponent to ordinary human dimensions seems to me the essence of wisdom. Those of you who want to continue to believe in Trump the Demon are going to continue to do so, and not much I do. But it is not useful. Statements with negative truth value - i.e., 'Trump called Covid-19 a hoax ' - almost never are.)

GR, you are so far divorced from reality, that I'm not going to bother with a real response.  You are fixating on the hoax comment while ignoring the dozens of other statements from Trump playing down and lying about the virus.  You are just making things up about a hypothetical Clinton presidency.  And you are pretending like Trump and his people did their best when they essentially did nothing and screwed up at every opportunity.  Outcomes in almost every other developed country have been better than in the US.

"Negative truth value."  As if.  Must be nice living in a bubble.

Sorry, my young friend. This whole mess began with you sneering a sneer about a single Trump quote, which - as noted - was not accurately quoted. That's all.

After which I've got three temper tantrums, so resonant of the old CEB, all of which I read mentally in the voice of Donald Duck. But after the fuss and feathers have subsided, it was still false, and useless.

Did I mention the basic Stanford degree since 1990 is in omniscience, whatever the stated major? Yours was awarded with high honors.

[Genuine Realist]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  



Not much of a realist, are you.

I'm a pretty firm opponent of Trump the Man - a narcissistic nativist, whose deliberately divisive style has definitely furthered the polarization of American politics. I didn't vote for him in 2016, will vote for Biden in 2020, regardless of VP choice, and contributed to Andrew Yang's campaign for reasons BC can guess.



Trump the Demon? The monster possessed of every imaginable vice, no discernible virtue, who revels in human misery and works ceaselessly for the triumph of evil? No, I do not believe in that person. In fact, the caricature and its perpetration are very helpful to the cause of Trump the Man, because it leads the opposition into absurdity. I lived through a full-scale demonization once before in my lifetime (Lyndon Johnson) and a minor league one (George Bush) two decades ago. They don't work. Frenzied hysteria does no one any good.



Like it or not, Trump the Man did not refer to the virus as a hoax. His opposition, relying on the complete suspension of critical faculties of so many opponents, misquoted him deliberately. They are mendacious, not Trump. That doesn't make Trump the Man any less an unworthy President. It does make them liars.



Attributing the 120,000 dead to Trump personally reminds me so much of Vietnam War propaganda that just led nowhere. Yes, burger - if only the nation had elected HRC, there'd be no dead and everyone would be enjoying cakes and ale. I posted a line that caused an uproar, to the effect that the US response wasn't all that different from most Western nations, including the much hallowed Germany. I doubt it would have been all that different with HRC.



Attributing a measure of reality and common sense to Trump does not make him any less a lousy President. It's really not that hard.



I used to believe in witches and hobgoblins, burger. But then I turned seven and I stopped.



(BTW, BC is right that the GR tag goes back to 1998, and exasperation with the poster known as Long Winded on The Bootleg, who knew little or nothing about college football recruiting at that time. I like it, though, and have stayed with it. I don't mean it to show any superior political wisdom. However, bringing a political opponent to ordinary human dimensions seems to me the essence of wisdom. Those of you who want to continue to believe in Trump the Demon are going to continue to do so, and not much I do. But it is not useful. Statements with negative truth value - i.e., 'Trump called Covid-19 a hoax ' - almost never are.)

GR, you are so far divorced from reality, that I'm not going to bother with a real response.  You are fixating on the hoax comment while ignoring the dozens of other statements from Trump playing down and lying about the virus.  You are just making things up about a hypothetical Clinton presidency.  And you are pretending like Trump and his people did their best when they essentially did nothing and screwed up at every opportunity.  Outcomes in almost every other developed country have been better than in the US.

"Negative truth value."  As if.  Must be nice living in a bubble.

Sorry, my young friend. This whole mess began with you sneering a sneer about a single Trump quote, which - as noted - was not accurately quoted. That's all.

After which I've got three temper tantrums, so resonant of the old CEB, all of which I read mentally in the voice of Donald Duck. But after the fuss and feathers have subsided, it was still false, and useless.

Did I mention the basic Stanford degree since 1990 is in omniscience, whatever the stated major? Yours was awarded with high honors.

[Farm93]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

I'm a pretty firm opponent of Trump the Man - a narcissistic nativist, whose deliberately divisive style has definitely furthered the polarization of American politics. I didn't vote for him in 2016, will vote for Biden in 2020, regardless of VP choice, and contributed to Andrew Yang's campaign for reasons BC can guess.

Trump the Demon? The monster possessed of every imaginable vice, no discernible virtue, who revels in human misery and works ceaselessly for the triumph of evil? No, I do not believe in that person. In fact, the caricature and its perpetration are very helpful to the cause of Trump the Man, because it leads the opposition into absurdity. I lived through a full-scale demonization once before in my lifetime (Lyndon Johnson) and a minor league one (George Bush) two decades ago. They don't work. Frenzied hysteria does no one any good.

Like it or not, Trump the Man did not refer to the virus as a hoax. His opposition, relying on the complete suspension of critical faculties of so many opponents, misquoted him deliberately. They are mendacious, not Trump. That doesn't make Trump the Man any less an unworthy President. It does make them liars.

Attributing the 120,000 dead to Trump personally reminds me so much of Vietnam War propaganda that just led nowhere. Yes, burger - if only the nation had elected HRC, there'd be no dead and everyone would be enjoying cakes and ale. I posted a line that caused an uproar, to the effect that the US response wasn't all that different from most Western nations, including the much hallowed Germany. I doubt it would have been all that different with HRC.

Attributing a measure of reality and common sense to Trump does not make him any less a lousy President. It's really not that hard.

I used to believe in witches and hobgoblins, burger. But then I turned seven and I stopped.

(BTW, BC is right that the GR tag goes back to 1998, and exasperation with the poster known as Long Winded on The Bootleg, who knew little or nothing about college football recruiting at that time. I like it, though, and have stayed with it. I don't mean it to show any superior political wisdom. However, bringing a political opponent to ordinary human dimensions seems to me the essence of wisdom. Those of you who want to continue to believe in Trump the Demon are going to continue to do so, and not much I do. But it is not useful. Statements with negative truth value - i.e., 'Trump called Covid-19 a hoax ' - almost never are.)

GR - I realize a few view him as evil or whatever.   I tend to view Trump as a greedy risk-seeking individual that has never really cared about others.   I got that from growing up in the NYC and Philly areas while he was pitching crazy deals.   

Even then I marveled at his ability to find very risky bets and continue to get people to bet on those visions despite a number of failures and unpaid partners.  The Atlantic City dreams seemed crazy to me at that time, but he sold a NJ shore renewal dream that leaders wanted to embrace.  The 2016 coal revival promises had themes I recognized and understood. 

I am not sure I have seen a similar realistic view in your posts.   So I have always found the GR username as ironic.

I do believe loads of people in the world would sell pipe dreams too, if they had his ability to pitch fantasies with such ease.

President Trump bounces around from thought to thought in a confusing way that makes it hard to properly capture his train of thought.   In most cases the bouncing around reveals a view, but you have to pull back a touch.

President Trump wanted COVID19 to become a non-issue in the 2020 election process.  
President Trump understood an economy can falter if fear dominates aspiration.
President Trump understood the Democrats were already running around implying citizens need to take COVID seriously. 

He lumped all of those thoughts together in one portion of a rambling speech.   To use the word hoax in that thought process trivialized the concerns of Democrats, health officials, and scientists from around the world.   More than a few of his MAGA rally types left understanding that President Trump wasn't worried about the virus and those claiming to worry about the virus were just pushing a storyline as fake as the impeachment one.   A hoax.

President Trump and his staff work relentless to suggest things that were untruths or lies were just sarcastic statements or jokes.   

I think we all can agree if COVID19 ended at the end of March, like a seasonal flu, he would be telling everyone he was right to say COVID was a Democratic party hoax.

That hasn't been our reality, so now Team POTUS tries to spin away from the message left at the MAGA rally.    If you look at the more complete context there is no doubt President Trump made the wrong call.  His comments at the rally aligned with his decisions in the White House at the time, and those statements will be in plenty of DNC ads in October as I think we all can agree we have a lot more than 15 cases.


Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. You know that, right? Coronavirus. They’re politicizing it. We did one of the great jobs. You say, ‘How’s President Trump doing?’ They go, ‘Oh, not good, not good.’ They have no clue. They don’t have any clue. They can’t even count their votes in Iowa, they can’t even count. No they can’t. They can’t count their votes.

One of my people came up to me and said, ‘Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia. That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything, they tried it over and over, they’ve been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning, they lost, it’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax. But you know, we did something that’s been pretty amazing. We’re 15 people [cases of coronavirus infection] in this massive country. And because of the fact that we went early, we went early, we could have had a lot more than that.

[Farm93]

120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

I'm a pretty firm opponent of Trump the Man - a narcissistic nativist, whose deliberately divisive style has definitely furthered the polarization of American politics. I didn't vote for him in 2016, will vote for Biden in 2020, regardless of VP choice, and contributed to Andrew Yang's campaign for reasons BC can guess.

Trump the Demon? The monster possessed of every imaginable vice, no discernible virtue, who revels in human misery and works ceaselessly for the triumph of evil? No, I do not believe in that person. In fact, the caricature and its perpetration are very helpful to the cause of Trump the Man, because it leads the opposition into absurdity. I lived through a full-scale demonization once before in my lifetime (Lyndon Johnson) and a minor league one (George Bush) two decades ago. They don't work. Frenzied hysteria does no one any good.

Like it or not, Trump the Man did not refer to the virus as a hoax. His opposition, relying on the complete suspension of critical faculties of so many opponents, misquoted him deliberately. They are mendacious, not Trump. That doesn't make Trump the Man any less an unworthy President. It does make them liars.

Attributing the 120,000 dead to Trump personally reminds me so much of Vietnam War propaganda that just led nowhere. Yes, burger - if only the nation had elected HRC, there'd be no dead and everyone would be enjoying cakes and ale. I posted a line that caused an uproar, to the effect that the US response wasn't all that different from most Western nations, including the much hallowed Germany. I doubt it would have been all that different with HRC.

Attributing a measure of reality and common sense to Trump does not make him any less a lousy President. It's really not that hard.

I used to believe in witches and hobgoblins, burger. But then I turned seven and I stopped.

(BTW, BC is right that the GR tag goes back to 1998, and exasperation with the poster known as Long Winded on The Bootleg, who knew little or nothing about college football recruiting at that time. I like it, though, and have stayed with it. I don't mean it to show any superior political wisdom. However, bringing a political opponent to ordinary human dimensions seems to me the essence of wisdom. Those of you who want to continue to believe in Trump the Demon are going to continue to do so, and not much I do. But it is not useful. Statements with negative truth value - i.e., 'Trump called Covid-19 a hoax ' - almost never are.)

GR - I realize a few view him as evil or whatever.   I tend to view Trump as a greedy risk-seeking individual that has never really cared about others.   I got that from growing up in the NYC and Philly areas while he was pitching crazy deals.   

Even then I marveled at his ability to find very risky bets and continue to get people to bet on those visions despite a number of failures and unpaid partners.  The Atlantic City dreams seemed crazy to me at that time, but he sold a NJ shore renewal dream that leaders wanted to embrace.  The 2016 coal revival promises had themes I recognized and understood. 

I am not sure I have seen a similar realistic view in your posts.   So I have always found the GR username as ironic.

I do believe loads of people in the world would sell pipe dreams too, if they had his ability to pitch fantasies with such ease.

President Trump bounces around from thought to thought in a confusing way that makes it hard to properly capture his train of thought.   In most cases the bouncing around reveals a view, but you have to pull back a touch.

President Trump wanted COVID19 to become a non-issue in the 2020 election process.  
President Trump understood an economy can falter if fear dominates aspiration.
President Trump understood the Democrats were already running around implying citizens need to take COVID seriously. 

He lumped all of those thoughts together in one portion of a rambling speech.   To use the word hoax in that thought process trivialized the concerns of Democrats, health officials, and scientists from around the world.   More than a few of his MAGA rally types left understanding that President Trump wasn't worried about the virus and those claiming to worry about the virus were just pushing a storyline as fake as the impeachment one.   A hoax.

President Trump and his staff work relentless to suggest things that were untruths or lies were just sarcastic statements or jokes.   

I think we all can agree if COVID19 ended at the end of March, like a seasonal flu, he would be telling everyone he was right to say COVID was a Democratic party hoax.

That hasn't been our reality, so now Team POTUS tries to spin away from the message left at the MAGA rally.    If you look at the more complete context there is no doubt President Trump made the wrong call.  His comments at the rally aligned with his decisions in the White House at the time, and those statements will be in plenty of DNC ads in October as I think we all can agree we have a lot more than 15 cases.


Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. You know that, right? Coronavirus. They’re politicizing it. We did one of the great jobs. You say, ‘How’s President Trump doing?’ They go, ‘Oh, not good, not good.’ They have no clue. They don’t have any clue. They can’t even count their votes in Iowa, they can’t even count. No they can’t. They can’t count their votes.

One of my people came up to me and said, ‘Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia. That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything, they tried it over and over, they’ve been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning, they lost, it’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax. But you know, we did something that’s been pretty amazing. We’re 15 people [cases of coronavirus infection] in this massive country. And because of the fact that we went early, we went early, we could have had a lot more than that.

[2006alum]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1241367239900778501?s=20[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/nprscience/status/1272598127397056512?s=20[/tweet]

So apparently, now the US is stuck with 66 million doses of stockpiled hydroxychloroquine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/hydroxyc...rus-2020-6

I guess we will be well-prepared for the next malaria pandemic.

BC

Does anyone really believe we'd have this problem if Trump hadn't decided, on the basis of little (and preliminary) credible evidence, to pressure the FDA on the basis that this had "real chance to be one of the biggest a game changers in the history of medicine"? To me, this is one clearcut example of government apparatuses abruptly shifting course at the whims of an emperor with no clothes and increasingly little coherence. Who with any credibility even attempts to make claims ranking game-changers in the history of medicine, let alone on the basis of very preliminary and incomplete evidence?

More than anything, I wonder about the motive behind defending Trump on the grounds that his accusers/attackers aren't being "fair" to him. I question whether that game is worth the candle, especially in this forum. It almost feels like gaslighting to defend someone you claim not to support and plan to vote against in some strange attempt to "both sides" most everyone else around these parts. And yes, I too can certainly think of statements from posters on this board about Trump, among other subjects, that I would deem "unfair." But I don't see what the point of calling them out is when, 90% of the time, I think the thrust of their criticisms are pretty valid. 

Maybe you should rename your handle "Devil's Advocate" -- and it could even work on two levels, given what folks like OF and burger seem to think about the President's morality! ;)

[2006alum]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1241367239900778501?s=20[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/nprscience/status/1272598127397056512?s=20[/tweet]

So apparently, now the US is stuck with 66 million doses of stockpiled hydroxychloroquine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/hydroxyc...rus-2020-6

I guess we will be well-prepared for the next malaria pandemic.

BC

Does anyone really believe we'd have this problem if Trump hadn't decided, on the basis of little (and preliminary) credible evidence, to pressure the FDA on the basis that this had "real chance to be one of the biggest a game changers in the history of medicine"? To me, this is one clearcut example of government apparatuses abruptly shifting course at the whims of an emperor with no clothes and increasingly little coherence. Who with any credibility even attempts to make claims ranking game-changers in the history of medicine, let alone on the basis of very preliminary and incomplete evidence?

More than anything, I wonder about the motive behind defending Trump on the grounds that his accusers/attackers aren't being "fair" to him. I question whether that game is worth the candle, especially in this forum. It almost feels like gaslighting to defend someone you claim not to support and plan to vote against in some strange attempt to "both sides" most everyone else around these parts. And yes, I too can certainly think of statements from posters on this board about Trump, among other subjects, that I would deem "unfair." But I don't see what the point of calling them out is when, 90% of the time, I think the thrust of their criticisms are pretty valid. 

Maybe you should rename your handle "Devil's Advocate" -- and it could even work on two levels, given what folks like OF and burger seem to think about the President's morality! ;)

[Genuine Realist]

[quote="Genuine Realist" pid='283331' dateline='1592423419']
[quote="burger" pid='283294' dateline='1592367740']
120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxccccccccccccccccccccccxcccccccccxcccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccxxxx

[A lot eliminated for space reasons.]

The first few paragraphs of your post align with my own view of Trump the Man. But then it deviates into demonism and historical revisionism, e.g., the Democrats through January and mid-February did NOT urge the public to take Covid-19 seriously. They took it even less seriously than Trump. decrying travel bans, etc. No one in the Western World took it seriously until - in my opinion - clinical reports from Italy and the first cluster in the US began to rain in.That was in the last two weeks of February. This all-things-lead-to-Trump attitude causes a lot of confusion.

I will do this anecdotally. I'm on very good terms with my older daughter, from whom I get medical advice. She is as anti-Trump as burger, but considerably more graceful. She is (or was) convinced that Trump deliberately lied about the seriousness of the disease in January. Why? sez I. Well, to buoy up the stock market and help his reelection. 

This maketh no sense, sez I. The election isn't until November. Lying about a pandemic buys you a few weeks at most. The stock market,  the public, and so on, will be wise to the reality long before the election. It's like lying to the fire department about a fire in your living room, claiming its only a grease fire in your kitchen. When the house burst into flames, the truth is apparent enough. What is there to gain? Do you think Trump is so stupid that he doesn't see beyond March 1st? Trump the Demon may be stupid. but Trump the Man is not. There has been only one stupid President in US history, and it isn't Trump. [Trivia alert - answer at the end of the post]

Getting to my own field, I can't make a fraud case on Trump to a jury. You can't show fraudulent intent on a time frame that short. There's nothing to gain. Add to that the almost universal pattern of response  in the West to Covid-19, the fact that the obvious political tactic of an embattled President would be to MAGNIFY, not minimize, the extent of the threat, and the entire analytic framework collapses. (BTW, when actual history is written, it is possible that the apparent success of the island and peninsular nations in Asia was due to their SARS protocols, and the efficacy against Covid-19 a type of serendipity.

Get beyond the all-things-lead-to-Trump thinking, giving up the notion that some enlightened policy choice might have saved all this, interesting and somewhat ominous questions emerge. Why did this virus catch almost the entire health apparatus of the world flat-footed? And what does that imply for the future? I do a lot more reading on this line than posting. I am particularly struck by how much uncertainty there still is about basic contagion mechanisms. Now we're all wearing masks, which were pooh-poohed a few weeks ago. The CDC account of its failures (or difficulty) in coping with the virus in January is also interesting. Finally,there is the really frightening percentage of cases that are asymptomatic or so mild that the subject doesn't know he's infected. I imagine it's an epidemiologist's nightmare.

It's not my field, but put it all together and my citizen's opinion is that attempts to cope with the virus by test-and-trace are doomed to fail, particularly in the early stages. (Germany did identify a Patient Zero, and wound up with a community infection anyway.) Pending a vaccine or effective treatments, the social distancing measures being adopted everywhere are the only effective response - and always were. In terms of containment, the only strategy that seems to work is complete quarantine, which no Western nation was willing to do when it really mattered. Whatever the cause - misinformation, over-confidence - no one had the political will to do that in January, when it might have made a difference. 

The ultimate bottom line is that this is going to be with us for some time. It's going to alter social patterns for years. The adjustments required are so comprehensive that we might as well get on with them. Waiting for the curve to flatten, particularly when there is a hard core of non-compliance as to which criminal sanctions are overkill, is a fool's errand. We should be reopening at once, and promulgating regulations for social distancing for institutions that are sensitive to them (hotels, large department stores, movie theaters, etc.)

None of this has anything to do with Trump the Demon. Trump the Man didn't lie or dismiss the Covid threat in January, for the reasons stated above. He parroted the conventional wisdom, which may be the reason he is so annoyed at the WHO. 

But Trump the Man has also managed to parley an issue that should have resulted in a sense of national unity into still one more divisive, personal battle. He has also adopted at this time the Red (reopening) position WITHOUT insisting that this be accompanied by sensible distancing. There's plenty to dislike about him without the demonization. 

[Oh - the one stupid President? Warren Harding.]

[Genuine Realist]

[quote="Genuine Realist" pid='283331' dateline='1592423419']
[quote="burger" pid='283294' dateline='1592367740']
120,000 dead, GR, and you're still defending him.  

Not much of a realist, are you.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxccccccccccccccccccccccxcccccccccxcccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccxxxx

[A lot eliminated for space reasons.]

The first few paragraphs of your post align with my own view of Trump the Man. But then it deviates into demonism and historical revisionism, e.g., the Democrats through January and mid-February did NOT urge the public to take Covid-19 seriously. They took it even less seriously than Trump. decrying travel bans, etc. No one in the Western World took it seriously until - in my opinion - clinical reports from Italy and the first cluster in the US began to rain in.That was in the last two weeks of February. This all-things-lead-to-Trump attitude causes a lot of confusion.

I will do this anecdotally. I'm on very good terms with my older daughter, from whom I get medical advice. She is as anti-Trump as burger, but considerably more graceful. She is (or was) convinced that Trump deliberately lied about the seriousness of the disease in January. Why? sez I. Well, to buoy up the stock market and help his reelection. 

This maketh no sense, sez I. The election isn't until November. Lying about a pandemic buys you a few weeks at most. The stock market,  the public, and so on, will be wise to the reality long before the election. It's like lying to the fire department about a fire in your living room, claiming its only a grease fire in your kitchen. When the house burst into flames, the truth is apparent enough. What is there to gain? Do you think Trump is so stupid that he doesn't see beyond March 1st? Trump the Demon may be stupid. but Trump the Man is not. There has been only one stupid President in US history, and it isn't Trump. [Trivia alert - answer at the end of the post]

Getting to my own field, I can't make a fraud case on Trump to a jury. You can't show fraudulent intent on a time frame that short. There's nothing to gain. Add to that the almost universal pattern of response  in the West to Covid-19, the fact that the obvious political tactic of an embattled President would be to MAGNIFY, not minimize, the extent of the threat, and the entire analytic framework collapses. (BTW, when actual history is written, it is possible that the apparent success of the island and peninsular nations in Asia was due to their SARS protocols, and the efficacy against Covid-19 a type of serendipity.

Get beyond the all-things-lead-to-Trump thinking, giving up the notion that some enlightened policy choice might have saved all this, interesting and somewhat ominous questions emerge. Why did this virus catch almost the entire health apparatus of the world flat-footed? And what does that imply for the future? I do a lot more reading on this line than posting. I am particularly struck by how much uncertainty there still is about basic contagion mechanisms. Now we're all wearing masks, which were pooh-poohed a few weeks ago. The CDC account of its failures (or difficulty) in coping with the virus in January is also interesting. Finally,there is the really frightening percentage of cases that are asymptomatic or so mild that the subject doesn't know he's infected. I imagine it's an epidemiologist's nightmare.

It's not my field, but put it all together and my citizen's opinion is that attempts to cope with the virus by test-and-trace are doomed to fail, particularly in the early stages. (Germany did identify a Patient Zero, and wound up with a community infection anyway.) Pending a vaccine or effective treatments, the social distancing measures being adopted everywhere are the only effective response - and always were. In terms of containment, the only strategy that seems to work is complete quarantine, which no Western nation was willing to do when it really mattered. Whatever the cause - misinformation, over-confidence - no one had the political will to do that in January, when it might have made a difference. 

The ultimate bottom line is that this is going to be with us for some time. It's going to alter social patterns for years. The adjustments required are so comprehensive that we might as well get on with them. Waiting for the curve to flatten, particularly when there is a hard core of non-compliance as to which criminal sanctions are overkill, is a fool's errand. We should be reopening at once, and promulgating regulations for social distancing for institutions that are sensitive to them (hotels, large department stores, movie theaters, etc.)

None of this has anything to do with Trump the Demon. Trump the Man didn't lie or dismiss the Covid threat in January, for the reasons stated above. He parroted the conventional wisdom, which may be the reason he is so annoyed at the WHO. 

But Trump the Man has also managed to parley an issue that should have resulted in a sense of national unity into still one more divisive, personal battle. He has also adopted at this time the Red (reopening) position WITHOUT insisting that this be accompanied by sensible distancing. There's plenty to dislike about him without the demonization. 

[Oh - the one stupid President? Warren Harding.]