[Papa John]

The men's BB season starts on November 9 versus Tarleton State from Stephenville, TX.

Not a lot of interest expressed yet on this board for men's BB, but I think this may be the make-or-break season for Coach Haase.

I figured that this would be a reasonable time to see how folks feel going into the season versus a seemingly resurgent Pac-12. Note that I'm assuming that Coach Haase will not be fired if the team makes the NCAA tournament!

[Papa John]

The men's BB season starts on November 9 versus Tarleton State from Stephenville, TX.

Not a lot of interest expressed yet on this board for men's BB, but I think this may be the make-or-break season for Coach Haase.

I figured that this would be a reasonable time to see how folks feel going into the season versus a seemingly resurgent Pac-12. Note that I'm assuming that Coach Haase will not be fired if the team makes the NCAA tournament!

[BobK]

The zoom tuesday noght got me excited then reality stepped in
The coaches picked Stanford 9th. Or no NCAA again. I’m always optimistic but depends on:
Jones healthy now and getting open looks
Others making threes.
Ingram and Raynaud bring solid players

Plus side I love O’Connell and DeLaire really proved himself in our dysfunctional last season

[BobK]

The zoom tuesday noght got me excited then reality stepped in
The coaches picked Stanford 9th. Or no NCAA again. I’m always optimistic but depends on:
Jones healthy now and getting open looks
Others making threes.
Ingram and Raynaud bring solid players

Plus side I love O’Connell and DeLaire really proved himself in our dysfunctional last season

[Papa John]

I agree with you BobK, but I'm not sure if the issue is talent. Here are Haases's recruits since he arrived.

2016, #59 national rank per 247sports (Dawkins recruits but signed to play with Haase): Trevor Stanback, Kody Pughe
2017, #14: KZ Okpala, Daejon Davis, Isaac White, Oscar da Silva
2018, #20: Cormac Ryan, Jaiden Delaire, Bryce Wills, Lukas Kisunas, Keenan Fitzmorris
2019, #59: Tyrell Terry, Spencer Jones, James Keefe
2020, #18: Ziaire Williams, Max Murrell, Noah Taitz, Michael O'Connell, Brandon Angel
2021, #20: Harrison Ingram, Isael Silva, Jarvis Moss, Maxime Raynaud

I'm willing to give the coach a mulligan for last year, but sometime in the past five years we should have been able to do better than a single 2nd round NIT appearance.

[Papa John]

I agree with you BobK, but I'm not sure if the issue is talent. Here are Haases's recruits since he arrived.

2016, #59 national rank per 247sports (Dawkins recruits but signed to play with Haase): Trevor Stanback, Kody Pughe
2017, #14: KZ Okpala, Daejon Davis, Isaac White, Oscar da Silva
2018, #20: Cormac Ryan, Jaiden Delaire, Bryce Wills, Lukas Kisunas, Keenan Fitzmorris
2019, #59: Tyrell Terry, Spencer Jones, James Keefe
2020, #18: Ziaire Williams, Max Murrell, Noah Taitz, Michael O'Connell, Brandon Angel
2021, #20: Harrison Ingram, Isael Silva, Jarvis Moss, Maxime Raynaud

I'm willing to give the coach a mulligan for last year, but sometime in the past five years we should have been able to do better than a single 2nd round NIT appearance.

[bl82]

The issue of wins and losses has been more one of injuries than talent. This year I think the wild card is Maxime Raynaud. I think that because Harrison Ingram will get more of a full season, home at Stanford experience than Ziaire Williams that he will be better integrated into the team and flourish more rapidly. He is also the type of player that will make everyone else better. We have a lot of solid players, but we could use one more stud. Raynaud is probably going to be that guy further down the line, but how much of his potential is realized in his freshman season remains to be seen. Three point shooting will also be key. Let's see if everyone remains healthy. 20+ wins and at least one NCAA win is a lot more likely than the media thinks, IMHO.

[bl82]

The issue of wins and losses has been more one of injuries than talent. This year I think the wild card is Maxime Raynaud. I think that because Harrison Ingram will get more of a full season, home at Stanford experience than Ziaire Williams that he will be better integrated into the team and flourish more rapidly. He is also the type of player that will make everyone else better. We have a lot of solid players, but we could use one more stud. Raynaud is probably going to be that guy further down the line, but how much of his potential is realized in his freshman season remains to be seen. Three point shooting will also be key. Let's see if everyone remains healthy. 20+ wins and at least one NCAA win is a lot more likely than the media thinks, IMHO.

[burger]

There's a lot of young talent on this team.  But the key word is young.  The departure of 4 starters is going to be impossible to overcome.  Team offense and defense are going to both be a struggle.  So this may end up being Haase's worst team record-wise.

As you can imagine, I voted bottom half of Pac-12. But I also voted Haase stays because apparently he has some compromising photos of Muir that will keep him in his job forever.

I am looking forward to seeing the new freshman and how well the young guys develop this year.  My pick for player to watch is Max Murrell.  That guy has a sweet shot.

[burger]

There's a lot of young talent on this team.  But the key word is young.  The departure of 4 starters is going to be impossible to overcome.  Team offense and defense are going to both be a struggle.  So this may end up being Haase's worst team record-wise.

As you can imagine, I voted bottom half of Pac-12. But I also voted Haase stays because apparently he has some compromising photos of Muir that will keep him in his job forever.

I am looking forward to seeing the new freshman and how well the young guys develop this year.  My pick for player to watch is Max Murrell.  That guy has a sweet shot.

[Spiny_Norman]

I am torn about Coach Haase. He's personable and a straight shooter. I like him personally. He recruits with the same energy and hustle with which he played. Stanford has had good players on his teams. Stanford has had a 1st team All P12 player each of his 5 years - Reid Travis in 2017 and 2018, KZ Okpala in 2019 and Oscar Da Silva in 2020 and 2021. 

But we have not seen the results. One season in 5 with a winning record in conference. One season in 5 with a postseason game. Stanford has lost in the 1st round of the P12 tournament 4 of his 5 seasons. It's been really frustrating.

A key reason for lack of success - shooting. With one or two exceptions, Stanford has been a bad 3 point shooting team for years.

Also the guard play has been sloppy. Too many turnovers, not enough assists.

I think that Stanford is no better than a .500 team again this year. If we see improvement in the guard play, shooting, and end of season play, I might feel better about the result than in years past. I don't see Stanford getting much better either. They are fighting with one hand behind their back because they don't really play in the transfer game. They will be in rebuilding mode every year relying on frosh while P12 opponents will be retooling with juniors and seniors who started (maybe even at an All Conference level) for other schools before transferring.

[Spiny_Norman]

I am torn about Coach Haase. He's personable and a straight shooter. I like him personally. He recruits with the same energy and hustle with which he played. Stanford has had good players on his teams. Stanford has had a 1st team All P12 player each of his 5 years - Reid Travis in 2017 and 2018, KZ Okpala in 2019 and Oscar Da Silva in 2020 and 2021. 

But we have not seen the results. One season in 5 with a winning record in conference. One season in 5 with a postseason game. Stanford has lost in the 1st round of the P12 tournament 4 of his 5 seasons. It's been really frustrating.

A key reason for lack of success - shooting. With one or two exceptions, Stanford has been a bad 3 point shooting team for years.

Also the guard play has been sloppy. Too many turnovers, not enough assists.

I think that Stanford is no better than a .500 team again this year. If we see improvement in the guard play, shooting, and end of season play, I might feel better about the result than in years past. I don't see Stanford getting much better either. They are fighting with one hand behind their back because they don't really play in the transfer game. They will be in rebuilding mode every year relying on frosh while P12 opponents will be retooling with juniors and seniors who started (maybe even at an All Conference level) for other schools before transferring.

[BostonCard]

Put another way, how would people feel if David Shaw had one winning conference season in five years?

BC

[BostonCard]

Put another way, how would people feel if David Shaw had one winning conference season in five years?

BC

[Brickcity]

Put another way, how would people feel if David Shaw had one winning conference season in five years?

BC

Oh, Shaw is working his way towards having a string of losing seasons. Of course, he benefited just a tad by inheriting a top five program. The slow slide of the football program towards the bottom of the conference continues.

[Brickcity]

Put another way, how would people feel if David Shaw had one winning conference season in five years?

BC

Oh, Shaw is working his way towards having a string of losing seasons. Of course, he benefited just a tad by inheriting a top five program. The slow slide of the football program towards the bottom of the conference continues.

[Farm93]

I opted for a losing season and Haase avoiding termination (yet again).

My guess is that a number of Stanford teams will have sub-par seasons as they all struggle to get back to pre-COVID levels of winning given the very real challenges of training, recruiting and coaching during COVID at Stanford.  Those challenges will be just enough to let Haase stay (again) even if the team does finish ~9th in the Pac as predicted by preseason poll.  

There are a number of nice people that are great at recruiting that are not able to outcoach their peers.   In the Haase era, Stanford has come close to beating very good teams in November.   Then each season it seemed that Stanford slipped a bit before the conference schedule started, but still looked competitive enough to potentially get into the NCAA tournament.   And yet by late February and March it has been clear the team was stumbling down the stretch and would be on the wrong side of the bubble.  The in-game trends feel just as hopeless.

Perhaps the stats tell a different story but my perception has been that the in-game and in-season declines are too common under Haase.   And that those slides are on the coaching staff.

Can't help but wonder...
Just what exactly is Haase's record in November?   in December?  in January?  in February? in March?
And during the Haase era how has Stanford done in the first half of games vs the second half of games?

[Farm93]

I opted for a losing season and Haase avoiding termination (yet again).

My guess is that a number of Stanford teams will have sub-par seasons as they all struggle to get back to pre-COVID levels of winning given the very real challenges of training, recruiting and coaching during COVID at Stanford.  Those challenges will be just enough to let Haase stay (again) even if the team does finish ~9th in the Pac as predicted by preseason poll.  

There are a number of nice people that are great at recruiting that are not able to outcoach their peers.   In the Haase era, Stanford has come close to beating very good teams in November.   Then each season it seemed that Stanford slipped a bit before the conference schedule started, but still looked competitive enough to potentially get into the NCAA tournament.   And yet by late February and March it has been clear the team was stumbling down the stretch and would be on the wrong side of the bubble.  The in-game trends feel just as hopeless.

Perhaps the stats tell a different story but my perception has been that the in-game and in-season declines are too common under Haase.   And that those slides are on the coaching staff.

Can't help but wonder...
Just what exactly is Haase's record in November?   in December?  in January?  in February? in March?
And during the Haase era how has Stanford done in the first half of games vs the second half of games?

[Papa John]

Good questions, Farm93, and I don't have time during my break to answer them. So here are the W-L results for the last 10 games of each season that Haase has coached, as well as more contextual W-L information:

2016-17: last 10 results were 3 wins, 7 losses, finished 14-17 overall, 6-12 in the conference, ended season with a 4-game losing streak (L4)
2017-18: 6-4, 19-16 (11-7), L1 (loss in NIT second round)
2018-19: 4-6, 15-16 (8-10), L3
2019-20: 4-6, 20-12 (9-9), L3
2020-21: 4-6, 14-13 (10-10), L5

[Papa John]

Good questions, Farm93, and I don't have time during my break to answer them. So here are the W-L results for the last 10 games of each season that Haase has coached, as well as more contextual W-L information:

2016-17: last 10 results were 3 wins, 7 losses, finished 14-17 overall, 6-12 in the conference, ended season with a 4-game losing streak (L4)
2017-18: 6-4, 19-16 (11-7), L1 (loss in NIT second round)
2018-19: 4-6, 15-16 (8-10), L3
2019-20: 4-6, 20-12 (9-9), L3
2020-21: 4-6, 14-13 (10-10), L5

[BostonCard]

Put another way, how would people feel if David Shaw had one winning conference season in five years?

BC

Oh, Shaw is working his way towards having a string of losing seasons. Of course, he benefited just a tad by inheriting a top five program. The slow slide of the football program towards the bottom of the conference continues.

He's had a winning season (including winning the Pac-12 North, and going to three bowl) games in four of the last five seasons, and it has now been 11 years since Harbaugh has been head coach.

BC

[BostonCard]

Put another way, how would people feel if David Shaw had one winning conference season in five years?

BC

Oh, Shaw is working his way towards having a string of losing seasons. Of course, he benefited just a tad by inheriting a top five program. The slow slide of the football program towards the bottom of the conference continues.

He's had a winning season (including winning the Pac-12 North, and going to three bowl) games in four of the last five seasons, and it has now been 11 years since Harbaugh has been head coach.

BC

[Papa John]

Since we can't talk about men's basketball unless we talk about football, here is a sort-of equivalent analysis of Stanford football results under David Shaw.

2011: final four games resulted in 2 wins and 2 losses, 11-2 overall, 8-1 in conference play, lost final game of the season (L1), lost the Fiesta Bowl
2012: 4-0, 12-2 (8-1), W4, won Rose Bowl
2013: 3-1, 11-3 (7-2), L1, lost Rose Bowl
2014: 3-1, 8-5 (5-4), W3, won Foster Farms Bowl
2015: 4-0, 12-2 (8-1), W4, won Rose Bowl
2016: 4-0, 10-3 (6-3), W6, won Sun Bowl
2017: 2-2, 9-5 (7-2), L2, lost Alamo Bowl
2018: 4-0, 9-4 (6-3), W4, won Sun Bowl
2019: 0-4, 4-8 (3-6), L4
2020: 4-0, 4-2 (4-2), W4

So even looking at just the last five years--to compare with Haase--it's not surprising to see that Shaw's teams are superior in each of these measures: last third(ish) of the season, overall record, conference record, end of the season winning-losing streak, postseason accomplishments.

[Papa John]

Since we can't talk about men's basketball unless we talk about football, here is a sort-of equivalent analysis of Stanford football results under David Shaw.

2011: final four games resulted in 2 wins and 2 losses, 11-2 overall, 8-1 in conference play, lost final game of the season (L1), lost the Fiesta Bowl
2012: 4-0, 12-2 (8-1), W4, won Rose Bowl
2013: 3-1, 11-3 (7-2), L1, lost Rose Bowl
2014: 3-1, 8-5 (5-4), W3, won Foster Farms Bowl
2015: 4-0, 12-2 (8-1), W4, won Rose Bowl
2016: 4-0, 10-3 (6-3), W6, won Sun Bowl
2017: 2-2, 9-5 (7-2), L2, lost Alamo Bowl
2018: 4-0, 9-4 (6-3), W4, won Sun Bowl
2019: 0-4, 4-8 (3-6), L4
2020: 4-0, 4-2 (4-2), W4

So even looking at just the last five years--to compare with Haase--it's not surprising to see that Shaw's teams are superior in each of these measures: last third(ish) of the season, overall record, conference record, end of the season winning-losing streak, postseason accomplishments.

[Phogge]

Maxime Reynaud. Wasn't he the prefect in Casablanca?

[Phogge]

Maxime Reynaud. Wasn't he the prefect in Casablanca?

[teejers1]

There's a lot of young talent on this team.  But the key word is young.  The departure of 4 starters is going to be impossible to overcome.  Team offense and defense are going to both be a struggle.  So this may end up being Haase's worst team record-wise.

Defense, in particular, with the loss of Davis and Wills, will really struggle.  The O might not fall much, if at all, even with the departure of Oscar.  But yes, losing Davis, Wills - defensive studs - Da Silva (team MVP), and a first round NBA pick (even if he underperformed at Stanford) is pretty staggering to think about.  Like others, I'm hoping (i) improvement by returnees, (ii) contributions by newcomers, and (iii) better team chemistry make up for the departures.

But it will be difficult.  For sure.

[teejers1]

There's a lot of young talent on this team.  But the key word is young.  The departure of 4 starters is going to be impossible to overcome.  Team offense and defense are going to both be a struggle.  So this may end up being Haase's worst team record-wise.

Defense, in particular, with the loss of Davis and Wills, will really struggle.  The O might not fall much, if at all, even with the departure of Oscar.  But yes, losing Davis, Wills - defensive studs - Da Silva (team MVP), and a first round NBA pick (even if he underperformed at Stanford) is pretty staggering to think about.  Like others, I'm hoping (i) improvement by returnees, (ii) contributions by newcomers, and (iii) better team chemistry make up for the departures.

But it will be difficult.  For sure.

[BostonCard]

Defense, in particular, with the loss of Davis and Wills, will reallys struggle.  The O might not fall much, if at all, even with the departure of Oscar.  But yes, losing Davis, Wills - defensive studs - Da Silva (team MVP), and a first round NBA pick (even if he underperformed at Stanford) is pretty staggering to thing about.  Like others, I'm hoping (a) improvement by returnees, (b) contributions by newcomers, and © better team chemistry make up for the departures.

What does it say that with all those pieces on the team, we fell apart last year.  Yeah, there were injuries and issues, etc., but you would think that two defensive studs, an NBA pick and a senior who was pretty good, that we should have had a better record than we did.

BC

[BostonCard]

Defense, in particular, with the loss of Davis and Wills, will reallys struggle.  The O might not fall much, if at all, even with the departure of Oscar.  But yes, losing Davis, Wills - defensive studs - Da Silva (team MVP), and a first round NBA pick (even if he underperformed at Stanford) is pretty staggering to thing about.  Like others, I'm hoping (a) improvement by returnees, (b) contributions by newcomers, and © better team chemistry make up for the departures.

What does it say that with all those pieces on the team, we fell apart last year.  Yeah, there were injuries and issues, etc., but you would think that two defensive studs, an NBA pick and a senior who was pretty good, that we should have had a better record than we did.

BC

[old spanish trail]

Btw, did Wills transfer?

[old spanish trail]

Btw, did Wills transfer?

[burger]

Btw, did Wills transfer?

He graduated, declared for the NBA draft, wasn't selected (I think he has NBA level athleticism, but not the shooting unfortunately), and has been trying out for the G-league.

[burger]

Btw, did Wills transfer?

He graduated, declared for the NBA draft, wasn't selected (I think he has NBA level athleticism, but not the shooting unfortunately), and has been trying out for the G-league.

[old spanish trail]

Btw, did Wills transfer?

He graduated, declared for the NBA draft, wasn't selected (I think he has NBA level athleticism, but not the shooting unfortunately), and has been trying out for the G-league.

Hope he makes it; one of my favorite players. There was a period where his distance shooting was pretty good and then it deteriorated again. Also, btw, Zaire Williams subbed in in middle of 1st period vs the Warriors and played well. Couple rebounds, a dunk, a steal and a miss from the corner 3.

---

Btw, did Wills transfer?

He graduated, declared for the NBA draft, wasn't selected (I think he has NBA level athleticism, but not the shooting unfortunately), and has been trying out for the G-league.

Hope he makes it; one of my favorite players. There was a period where his distance shooting was pretty good and then it deteriorated again. Also, btw, Memphis' Zaire Williams subbed in in middle of 1st period vs the Warriors and played well. Couple rebounds, a dunk, a steal and a miss from the corner 3. Will he be better than Kaminga? Warriors having their way.

[old spanish trail]

Btw, did Wills transfer?

He graduated, declared for the NBA draft, wasn't selected (I think he has NBA level athleticism, but not the shooting unfortunately), and has been trying out for the G-league.

Hope he makes it; one of my favorite players. There was a period where his distance shooting was pretty good and then it deteriorated again. Also, btw, Zaire Williams subbed in in middle of 1st period vs the Warriors and played well. Couple rebounds, a dunk, a steal and a miss from the corner 3.

---

Btw, did Wills transfer?

He graduated, declared for the NBA draft, wasn't selected (I think he has NBA level athleticism, but not the shooting unfortunately), and has been trying out for the G-league.

Hope he makes it; one of my favorite players. There was a period where his distance shooting was pretty good and then it deteriorated again. Also, btw, Memphis' Zaire Williams subbed in in middle of 1st period vs the Warriors and played well. Couple rebounds, a dunk, a steal and a miss from the corner 3. Will he be better than Kaminga? Warriors having their way.

[teejers1]

Defense, in particular, with the loss of Davis and Wills, will reallys struggle.  The O might not fall much, if at all, even with the departure of Oscar.  But yes, losing Davis, Wills - defensive studs - Da Silva (team MVP), and a first round NBA pick (even if he underperformed at Stanford) is pretty staggering to thing about.  Like others, I'm hoping (a) improvement by returnees, (b) contributions by newcomers, and © better team chemistry make up for the departures.

What does it say that with all those pieces on the team, we fell apart last year.  Yeah, there were injuries and issues, etc., but you would think that two defensive studs, an NBA pick and a senior who was pretty good, that we should have had a better record than we did.

BC

Yep.  Haase is running out of leash.  And I like the guy (Spiny captured my sentiments nicely).

[teejers1]

Defense, in particular, with the loss of Davis and Wills, will reallys struggle.  The O might not fall much, if at all, even with the departure of Oscar.  But yes, losing Davis, Wills - defensive studs - Da Silva (team MVP), and a first round NBA pick (even if he underperformed at Stanford) is pretty staggering to thing about.  Like others, I'm hoping (a) improvement by returnees, (b) contributions by newcomers, and © better team chemistry make up for the departures.

What does it say that with all those pieces on the team, we fell apart last year.  Yeah, there were injuries and issues, etc., but you would think that two defensive studs, an NBA pick and a senior who was pretty good, that we should have had a better record than we did.

BC

Yep.  Haase is running out of leash.  And I like the guy (Spiny captured my sentiments nicely).

[Phogge]

Amazing that nine out of twenty-three voters think this team will make the NCAA's.

[Phogge]

Amazing that nine out of twenty-three voters think this team will make the NCAA's.