[Mick]

Michigan won the Big Ten championship and beat Ohio State last season, finishing with a final AP ranking of #3 and a 12-2 record, best in coach Harbaugh's history at UMich.

Still, Coach Harbaugh is having a very difficult time recruiting. Michigan didn't get any of the Top 200 prospective high school senior players.  He lost out on not one but two five-star quarterbacks from Michigan...including C.J. Carr, the son of former Michigan coach Lloyd Carr, who committed to Notre Dame.  And Dante Moore, 5-star QB from Detroit, committed to Oregon.

College football world reacts to Michigan football’s latest failures (msn.com)

[Mick]

Michigan won the Big Ten championship and beat Ohio State last season, finishing with a final AP ranking of #3 and a 12-2 record, best in coach Harbaugh's history at UMich.

Still, Coach Harbaugh is having a very difficult time recruiting. Michigan didn't get any of the Top 200 prospective high school senior players.  He lost out on not one but two five-star quarterbacks from Michigan...including C.J. Carr, the son of former Michigan coach Lloyd Carr, who committed to Notre Dame.  And Dante Moore, 5-star QB from Detroit, committed to Oregon.

College football world reacts to Michigan football’s latest failures (msn.com)

[cardcrimson]

Blame the boosters and the lack of NIL deals, I'd imagine. When you think about it, perhaps Harbaugh isn't best suited for the pay to play type player.

[cardcrimson]

Blame the boosters and the lack of NIL deals, I'd imagine. When you think about it, perhaps Harbaugh isn't best suited for the pay to play type player.

[msqueri]

Harbaugh's recruiting has been lackluster throughout his tenure at Michigan. Coaching at the winningest program in college football history, Harbaugh has brought in recruiting classes ranked 7th, 5th, 22nd, 10th, 12th, 13th, and 12th. Before Harbaugh, Michigan was top 12 (his median) in recruiting in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012, 2013. Nothing is monocausal and the ascendance of the SEC and Ohio State's reign of dominance don't help, but I think the evidence is clear that Michigan doesn't recruit under Harbaugh anything like its historical birthright.

Couple that evidence with how much better Shaw has recruited throughout his tenure compared to Harbaugh (on paper, at least....evaluation is another matter) and I think one needs to question how good of a recruiter Harbaugh is. After getting Stanford back on the scene with an 8 win season and Gerhart's Voldemort campaign, Harbaugh brought in the #24 class. And then after the 12 win season/Luck's Voldemort campaign/Stanford being one of the darlings of college football, Harbaugh brought in the #22 class. Meh. He was, rightfully, one of the hottest names in the sport but wasn't turning the recruiting into anything better than squeaking into the top 25. One way to think about it is that a Harbaugh selling a program on the upswing and back-to-back Voldemort household names recruited basically at the level Shaw has while selling a program on the downswing and no relevance at all in the national college football landscape for half a decade.

I don't think Harbaugh is nearly as good of a recruiter as he is a coach and I think the reason is pretty simple: he's untrustworthy and weird. Having watched and admired him (will always think he's one of the best coaches in the sport) for years, I don't think recruiting (in the sense of actually succeeding in executing the plan he wants to execute) is a strength of his.

P.S. Didn't bother to change the H-E-I-S-M-A-N references above. This board's software automatic correct of certain words is childish and embarrassing.

[msqueri]

Harbaugh's recruiting has been lackluster throughout his tenure at Michigan. Coaching at the winningest program in college football history, Harbaugh has brought in recruiting classes ranked 7th, 5th, 22nd, 10th, 12th, 13th, and 12th. Before Harbaugh, Michigan was top 12 (his median) in recruiting in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012, 2013. Nothing is monocausal and the ascendance of the SEC and Ohio State's reign of dominance don't help, but I think the evidence is clear that Michigan doesn't recruit under Harbaugh anything like its historical birthright.

Couple that evidence with how much better Shaw has recruited throughout his tenure compared to Harbaugh (on paper, at least....evaluation is another matter) and I think one needs to question how good of a recruiter Harbaugh is. After getting Stanford back on the scene with an 8 win season and Gerhart's Voldemort campaign, Harbaugh brought in the #24 class. And then after the 12 win season/Luck's Voldemort campaign/Stanford being one of the darlings of college football, Harbaugh brought in the #22 class. Meh. He was, rightfully, one of the hottest names in the sport but wasn't turning the recruiting into anything better than squeaking into the top 25. One way to think about it is that a Harbaugh selling a program on the upswing and back-to-back Voldemort household names recruited basically at the level Shaw has while selling a program on the downswing and no relevance at all in the national college football landscape for half a decade.

I don't think Harbaugh is nearly as good of a recruiter as he is a coach and I think the reason is pretty simple: he's untrustworthy and weird. Having watched and admired him (will always think he's one of the best coaches in the sport) for years, I don't think recruiting (in the sense of actually succeeding in executing the plan he wants to execute) is a strength of his.

P.S. Didn't bother to change the H-E-I-S-M-A-N references above. This board's software automatic correct of certain words is childish and embarrassing.

[Goose]

I don't think Harbaugh is nearly as good of a recruiter as he is a coach and I think the reason is pretty simple: he's untrustworthy and weird. Having watched and admired him (will always think he's one of the best coaches in the sport) for years, I don't think recruiting (in the sense of actually succeeding in executing the plan he wants to execute) is a strength of his.

I agree that JH isn't as good a recruiter as people believe he is, mostly for the reasons you state. When he was at Stanford, he didn't have a record of being untrustworthy (because he basically had no history). He does have a record now, and EUTM works only if you believe it. He now has a significant credibility issue. He also has displayed a very cavalier attitude towards recruits that he decided he didn't need. Lots of programs do that, but they at least try to keep it quiet. He hasn't.

I am however more interested in your evaluation of him as a coach. Personally, I always thought he relied on his supporting staff for success. He, like many leaders, has lots of ideas. Many of them were brilliant, many of them were actually bad. If he has a staff that can tell the difference and execute the brilliant ones, he does great. If his staff isn't so good, not so much. He has experienced lots of staff turnover at Michigan, some because of success and some because of failure. You apparently think he is better than that. Why so?

[Goose]

I don't think Harbaugh is nearly as good of a recruiter as he is a coach and I think the reason is pretty simple: he's untrustworthy and weird. Having watched and admired him (will always think he's one of the best coaches in the sport) for years, I don't think recruiting (in the sense of actually succeeding in executing the plan he wants to execute) is a strength of his.

I agree that JH isn't as good a recruiter as people believe he is, mostly for the reasons you state. When he was at Stanford, he didn't have a record of being untrustworthy (because he basically had no history). He does have a record now, and EUTM works only if you believe it. He now has a significant credibility issue. He also has displayed a very cavalier attitude towards recruits that he decided he didn't need. Lots of programs do that, but they at least try to keep it quiet. He hasn't.

I am however more interested in your evaluation of him as a coach. Personally, I always thought he relied on his supporting staff for success. He, like many leaders, has lots of ideas. Many of them were brilliant, many of them were actually bad. If he has a staff that can tell the difference and execute the brilliant ones, he does great. If his staff isn't so good, not so much. He has experienced lots of staff turnover at Michigan, some because of success and some because of failure. You apparently think he is better than that. Why so?

[Maple Leaf]

I think if Harbaugh had a choice, he would take being a starting qb over being a head coach, he just could not find a way around Father Time just like most of the population.

[Maple Leaf]

I think if Harbaugh had a choice, he would take being a starting qb over being a head coach, he just could not find a way around Father Time just like most of the population.

[msqueri]

I don't think Harbaugh is nearly as good of a recruiter as he is a coach and I think the reason is pretty simple: he's untrustworthy and weird. Having watched and admired him (will always think he's one of the best coaches in the sport) for years, I don't think recruiting (in the sense of actually succeeding in executing the plan he wants to execute) is a strength of his.

I agree that JH isn't as good a recruiter as people believe he is, mostly for the reasons you state. When he was at Stanford, he didn't have a record of being untrustworthy (because he basically had no history). He does have a record now, and EUTM works only if you believe it. He now has a significant credibility issue. He also has displayed a very caviler attitude towards recruits that he decided he didn't need. Lots of programs do that, but they at least try to keep it quiet. He hasn't.

I am however more interested in your evaluation of him as a coach. Personally, I always thought he relied on his supporting staff for success. He, like many leaders, has lots of ideas. Many of them were brilliant, many of them were actually bad. If he has a staff that can tell the difference and execute the brilliant ones, he does great. If his staff isn't so good, not so much. He has experienced lots of staff turnover at Michigan, some because of success and some because of failure. You apparently think he is better than that. Why so?

I think he's an incredible coach. Fundamentally, I like to judge people by results. Here are his results:

* University of San Diego: took a team that had never even won a conference championship and in his second and third years went undefeated in conference and 11-1 overall each year. No coach since him has ever had as good a season.

* Stanford: took a team that hadn't made a bowl for six years and was coming off a 1-11 season and immediately turned it around to successively more winning seasons every year, culminating in the first top five season the program had had in 70 years. In the following decade the program got back to the top five once.

* 49ers: took a team that hadn't been to a conference championship in 14 years and got them to the conference championship three straight years. In the seven years without him the team has made the conference championship twice.

* Michigan: took a team that had been top 20 once in the previous seven seasons and has now had them top 20 five times in the last seven seasons.

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

Maybe his supporting cast is a big part of the success, but doesn't he get the credit for that? Head coach is the CEO. The goal for the product is wins. He orchestrates - ALWAYS - wins unlike what the teams he leads have any right to expect based on what came before him. He's as good as it gets as a coach. But in the college game at least 50 percent of coaching is recruiting. He has a ceiling on what he can accomplish compared to, frankly, better/more likeable people like Nick Saban and Ryan Day.

Anyway, I really don't think you should diminish supporting cast. Harbaugh has hired over a dozen coaches who went on to become head coaches at the college or NFL level. Aside from Shaw they haven't achieved great success, but the fact he has an eye for leadership others also come to trust in says a lot. And if you don't buy that, my estimation of Harbaugh's coaching really comes down to the scoreboard. His track record at USD, Stanford, San Francisco, and Michigan is beyond stellar.

[msqueri]

I don't think Harbaugh is nearly as good of a recruiter as he is a coach and I think the reason is pretty simple: he's untrustworthy and weird. Having watched and admired him (will always think he's one of the best coaches in the sport) for years, I don't think recruiting (in the sense of actually succeeding in executing the plan he wants to execute) is a strength of his.

I agree that JH isn't as good a recruiter as people believe he is, mostly for the reasons you state. When he was at Stanford, he didn't have a record of being untrustworthy (because he basically had no history). He does have a record now, and EUTM works only if you believe it. He now has a significant credibility issue. He also has displayed a very caviler attitude towards recruits that he decided he didn't need. Lots of programs do that, but they at least try to keep it quiet. He hasn't.

I am however more interested in your evaluation of him as a coach. Personally, I always thought he relied on his supporting staff for success. He, like many leaders, has lots of ideas. Many of them were brilliant, many of them were actually bad. If he has a staff that can tell the difference and execute the brilliant ones, he does great. If his staff isn't so good, not so much. He has experienced lots of staff turnover at Michigan, some because of success and some because of failure. You apparently think he is better than that. Why so?

I think he's an incredible coach. Fundamentally, I like to judge people by results. Here are his results:

* University of San Diego: took a team that had never even won a conference championship and in his second and third years went undefeated in conference and 11-1 overall each year. No coach since him has ever had as good a season.

* Stanford: took a team that hadn't made a bowl for six years and was coming off a 1-11 season and immediately turned it around to successively more winning seasons every year, culminating in the first top five season the program had had in 70 years. In the following decade the program got back to the top five once.

* 49ers: took a team that hadn't been to a conference championship in 14 years and got them to the conference championship three straight years. In the seven years without him the team has made the conference championship twice.

* Michigan: took a team that had been top 20 once in the previous seven seasons and has now had them top 20 five times in the last seven seasons.

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

Maybe his supporting cast is a big part of the success, but doesn't he get the credit for that? Head coach is the CEO. The goal for the product is wins. He orchestrates - ALWAYS - wins unlike what the teams he leads have any right to expect based on what came before him. He's as good as it gets as a coach. But in the college game at least 50 percent of coaching is recruiting. He has a ceiling on what he can accomplish compared to, frankly, better/more likeable people like Nick Saban and Ryan Day.

Anyway, I really don't think you should diminish supporting cast. Harbaugh has hired over a dozen coaches who went on to become head coaches at the college or NFL level. Aside from Shaw they haven't achieved great success, but the fact he has an eye for leadership others also come to trust in says a lot. And if you don't buy that, my estimation of Harbaugh's coaching really comes down to the scoreboard. His track record at USD, Stanford, San Francisco, and Michigan is beyond stellar.

[Alvin]

Harbaugh was a tireless recruiter and would go as far as spending the night at recruits' homes.  He was also an innovator. Instead of waiting to check grades and transcripts near a recruits final season, he identified talented and intelligent kids earlier in the process and encouraged them to take AP classes to enhance their chances of getting accepted by their senior year.  

Shaw doesn't appear to put the hard work in recruiting like Harbaugh. You could find Shaw at a basketball game the night before National Signing Day looking relaxed. I doubt Harbaugh did the same. He'd be on the phone all night convincing fence-sitters to come to Stanford.

---

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

[Alvin]

Harbaugh was a tireless recruiter and would go as far as spending the night at recruits' homes.  He was also an innovator. Instead of waiting to check grades and transcripts near a recruits final season, he identified talented and intelligent kids earlier in the process and encouraged them to take AP classes to enhance their chances of getting accepted by their senior year.  

Shaw doesn't appear to put the hard work in recruiting like Harbaugh. You could find Shaw at a basketball game the night before National Signing Day looking relaxed. I doubt Harbaugh did the same. He'd be on the phone all night convincing fence-sitters to come to Stanford.

---

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

[Goose]

I think he's an incredible coach. Fundamentally, I like to judge people by results. Here are his results:

Makes sense. If you deliver wins, that is the bottom line.

<snip>
Maybe his supporting cast is a big part of the success, but doesn't he get the credit for that?

Absolutely he does. The dynamic with the staff is apparently oftentimes short term, but he then goes and gets somebody else.

Head coach is the CEO. The goal for the product is wins. He orchestrates - ALWAYS - wins unlike what the teams he leads have any right to expect based on what came before him. He's as good as it gets as a coach.

Until Michigan I would agree with you 100%. His performance at Michigan has been a bit uneven. He has also been there longer, which may expose  warts that don't show up in relatively short tenures. At Michigan, expectations are higher, perhaps unreasonably so. As I have previously posted in some detail, his W-L at Michigan does not blow away some of his predecessors. Obviously it is hard to compare records and times change rapidly these days. I think what happens at Michigan in the next few years tells the story. JH was certainly on the way down until last year (which was not expected to be that good by the pundits). I don't necessarily think JH builds his staff according to a plan. It is "feel" and who is available. I think coaches like to work for him for a short time because it improves their prospects. They fully intend to leave ASAP. Generally, he gets good people, but sometimes he doesn't. He also sometimes asks them to do the impossible. We shall see what happens going forward.

But in the college game at least 50 percent of coaching is recruiting. He has a ceiling on what he can accomplish compared to, frankly, better/more likeable people like Nick Saban and Ryan Day.

Anyway, I really don't think you should diminish supporting cast. Harbaugh has hired over a dozen coaches who went on to become head coaches at the college or NFL level. Aside from Shaw they haven't achieved great success, but the fact he has an eye for leadership others also come to trust in says a lot. And if you don't buy that, my estimation of Harbaugh's coaching really comes down to the scoreboard. His track record at USD, Stanford, San Francisco, and Michigan is beyond stellar.

Except the Michigan part, I fully agree with the scoreboard argument. Michigan has not been an overwhelming success and he almost got fired. It also hasn't been a flop either. For me, what happens going ahead is the story. As far as JH hiring good people, I think he generally has. However, he has had a lot of "at bats" to do that. He has seen quite a few people leave, some because they got a better job and some because it wasn't working. His turnover is pretty high. That can be good, or not.

[Goose]

I think he's an incredible coach. Fundamentally, I like to judge people by results. Here are his results:

Makes sense. If you deliver wins, that is the bottom line.

<snip>
Maybe his supporting cast is a big part of the success, but doesn't he get the credit for that?

Absolutely he does. The dynamic with the staff is apparently oftentimes short term, but he then goes and gets somebody else.

Head coach is the CEO. The goal for the product is wins. He orchestrates - ALWAYS - wins unlike what the teams he leads have any right to expect based on what came before him. He's as good as it gets as a coach.

Until Michigan I would agree with you 100%. His performance at Michigan has been a bit uneven. He has also been there longer, which may expose  warts that don't show up in relatively short tenures. At Michigan, expectations are higher, perhaps unreasonably so. As I have previously posted in some detail, his W-L at Michigan does not blow away some of his predecessors. Obviously it is hard to compare records and times change rapidly these days. I think what happens at Michigan in the next few years tells the story. JH was certainly on the way down until last year (which was not expected to be that good by the pundits). I don't necessarily think JH builds his staff according to a plan. It is "feel" and who is available. I think coaches like to work for him for a short time because it improves their prospects. They fully intend to leave ASAP. Generally, he gets good people, but sometimes he doesn't. He also sometimes asks them to do the impossible. We shall see what happens going forward.

But in the college game at least 50 percent of coaching is recruiting. He has a ceiling on what he can accomplish compared to, frankly, better/more likeable people like Nick Saban and Ryan Day.

Anyway, I really don't think you should diminish supporting cast. Harbaugh has hired over a dozen coaches who went on to become head coaches at the college or NFL level. Aside from Shaw they haven't achieved great success, but the fact he has an eye for leadership others also come to trust in says a lot. And if you don't buy that, my estimation of Harbaugh's coaching really comes down to the scoreboard. His track record at USD, Stanford, San Francisco, and Michigan is beyond stellar.

Except the Michigan part, I fully agree with the scoreboard argument. Michigan has not been an overwhelming success and he almost got fired. It also hasn't been a flop either. For me, what happens going ahead is the story. As far as JH hiring good people, I think he generally has. However, he has had a lot of "at bats" to do that. He has seen quite a few people leave, some because they got a better job and some because it wasn't working. His turnover is pretty high. That can be good, or not.

[JohnR34231]

I always thought when Harbaugh was at Stanford, his success was not due to recruiting 4-5 star players, but getting 2-3 and having them play like 4-5 star.

Of course, having Andrew Luck definitely helped in the process.

[JohnR34231]

I always thought when Harbaugh was at Stanford, his success was not due to recruiting 4-5 star players, but getting 2-3 and having them play like 4-5 star.

Of course, having Andrew Luck definitely helped in the process.

[SamuelMcF]

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. 

This happened twice. 2013 and 2018. Both classes were unacceptably small. 2018 was worse because it followed a similarly small class in 2017. Bad bad bad.

I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  

Thomas Oser and David Bright were in the same class. You're thinking of 2018's Trey Stratford.

Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

This is not even close to correct. The correct number was 6 (4 of whom were true frosh), due to FIVE OL getting injured for the season. Of course, 11 still isn't enough to begin with.

[SamuelMcF]

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. 

This happened twice. 2013 and 2018. Both classes were unacceptably small. 2018 was worse because it followed a similarly small class in 2017. Bad bad bad.

I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  

Thomas Oser and David Bright were in the same class. You're thinking of 2018's Trey Stratford.

Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

This is not even close to correct. The correct number was 6 (4 of whom were true frosh), due to FIVE OL getting injured for the season. Of course, 11 still isn't enough to begin with.

[Phogge]

H*** is a four letter word for the Mods. Somebody got their back up when Texas scored a H*** number of points on Stanford in 1999. A childish pouting decision to autocorrect. BFD, it's ancient history.

[Phogge]

H*** is a four letter word for the Mods. Somebody got their back up when Texas scored a H*** number of points on Stanford in 1999. A childish pouting decision to autocorrect. BFD, it's ancient history.

[akiddoc]

Harbaugh was a tireless recruiter and would go as far as spending the night at recruits' homes.  He was also an innovator. Instead of waiting to check grades and transcripts near a recruits final season, he identified talented and intelligent kids earlier in the process and encouraged them to take AP classes to enhance their chances of getting accepted by their senior year.  

Shaw doesn't appear to put the hard work in recruiting like Harbaugh. You could find Shaw at a basketball game the night before National Signing Day looking relaxed. I doubt Harbaugh did the same. He'd be on the phone all night convincing fence-sitters to come to Stanford.

---

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

Looking at grades and AP courses early wasn't Harbaugh's idea. Those of us on the Bootleg at the time had been clamoring for this for quite some time, and it was suggested to Harbaugh as soon as he arrived.

[akiddoc]

Harbaugh was a tireless recruiter and would go as far as spending the night at recruits' homes.  He was also an innovator. Instead of waiting to check grades and transcripts near a recruits final season, he identified talented and intelligent kids earlier in the process and encouraged them to take AP classes to enhance their chances of getting accepted by their senior year.  

Shaw doesn't appear to put the hard work in recruiting like Harbaugh. You could find Shaw at a basketball game the night before National Signing Day looking relaxed. I doubt Harbaugh did the same. He'd be on the phone all night convincing fence-sitters to come to Stanford.

---

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

Looking at grades and AP courses early wasn't Harbaugh's idea. Those of us on the Bootleg at the time had been clamoring for this for quite some time, and it was suggested to Harbaugh as soon as he arrived.

[Mick]

Harbaugh was a tireless recruiter and would go as far as spending the night at recruits' homes.  He was also an innovator. Instead of waiting to check grades and transcripts near a recruits final season, he identified talented and intelligent kids earlier in the process and encouraged them to take AP classes to enhance their chances of getting accepted by their senior year.  

Shaw doesn't appear to put the hard work in recruiting like Harbaugh. You could find Shaw at a basketball game the night before National Signing Day looking relaxed. I doubt Harbaugh did the same. He'd be on the phone all night convincing fence-sitters to come to Stanford.

---

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

Looking at grades and AP courses early wasn't Harbaugh's idea. Those of us on the Bootleg at the time had been clamoring for this for quite some time, and it was suggested to Harbaugh as soon as he arrived.

Does Shaw do this?  Is he a lazy recruiter?

---

I think he's an incredible coach. Fundamentally, I like to judge people by results. Here are his results:

* University of San Diego: took a team that had never even won a conference championship and in his second and third years went undefeated in conference and 11-1 overall each year. No coach since him has ever had as good a season.

* Stanford: took a team that hadn't made a bowl for six years and was coming off a 1-11 season and immediately turned it around to successively more winning seasons every year, culminating in the first top five season the program had had in 70 years. In the following decade the program got back to the top five once.

* 49ers: took a team that hadn't been to a conference championship in 14 years and got them to the conference championship three straight years. In the seven years without him the team has made the conference championship twice.

* Michigan: took a team that had been top 20 once in the previous seven seasons and has now had them top 20 five times in the last seven seasons.

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

Maybe his supporting cast is a big part of the success, but doesn't he get the credit for that? Head coach is the CEO. The goal for the product is wins. He orchestrates - ALWAYS - wins unlike what the teams he leads have any right to expect based on what came before him. He's as good as it gets as a coach. But in the college game at least 50 percent of coaching is recruiting. He has a ceiling on what he can accomplish compared to, frankly, better/more likeable people like Nick Saban and Ryan Day.

Anyway, I really don't think you should diminish supporting cast. Harbaugh has hired over a dozen coaches who went on to become head coaches at the college or NFL level. Aside from Shaw they haven't achieved great success, but the fact he has an eye for leadership others also come to trust in says a lot. And if you don't buy that, my estimation of Harbaugh's coaching really comes down to the scoreboard. His track record at USD, Stanford, San Francisco, and Michigan is beyond stellar.

I have two friends who are phenomenal salespeople. They instantly generate revenue. One joined a firm and generated their fifth largest client that year.  They fired her and their next year's revenue increase was halved, and then halved again the second year after she left.  They lost out on, conservatively, $20 mms. in revenue those two years. Another joined a firm and led them to their best revenue increase across two decades. They let him go.

 Both had personality issues.  Both made people stretch -- uncomfortably -- for success.  Some people are like that.  Many people can't take people with those personality styles.

[Mick]

Harbaugh was a tireless recruiter and would go as far as spending the night at recruits' homes.  He was also an innovator. Instead of waiting to check grades and transcripts near a recruits final season, he identified talented and intelligent kids earlier in the process and encouraged them to take AP classes to enhance their chances of getting accepted by their senior year.  

Shaw doesn't appear to put the hard work in recruiting like Harbaugh. You could find Shaw at a basketball game the night before National Signing Day looking relaxed. I doubt Harbaugh did the same. He'd be on the phone all night convincing fence-sitters to come to Stanford.

---

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

Looking at grades and AP courses early wasn't Harbaugh's idea. Those of us on the Bootleg at the time had been clamoring for this for quite some time, and it was suggested to Harbaugh as soon as he arrived.

Does Shaw do this?  Is he a lazy recruiter?

---

I think he's an incredible coach. Fundamentally, I like to judge people by results. Here are his results:

* University of San Diego: took a team that had never even won a conference championship and in his second and third years went undefeated in conference and 11-1 overall each year. No coach since him has ever had as good a season.

* Stanford: took a team that hadn't made a bowl for six years and was coming off a 1-11 season and immediately turned it around to successively more winning seasons every year, culminating in the first top five season the program had had in 70 years. In the following decade the program got back to the top five once.

* 49ers: took a team that hadn't been to a conference championship in 14 years and got them to the conference championship three straight years. In the seven years without him the team has made the conference championship twice.

* Michigan: took a team that had been top 20 once in the previous seven seasons and has now had them top 20 five times in the last seven seasons.

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

Maybe his supporting cast is a big part of the success, but doesn't he get the credit for that? Head coach is the CEO. The goal for the product is wins. He orchestrates - ALWAYS - wins unlike what the teams he leads have any right to expect based on what came before him. He's as good as it gets as a coach. But in the college game at least 50 percent of coaching is recruiting. He has a ceiling on what he can accomplish compared to, frankly, better/more likeable people like Nick Saban and Ryan Day.

Anyway, I really don't think you should diminish supporting cast. Harbaugh has hired over a dozen coaches who went on to become head coaches at the college or NFL level. Aside from Shaw they haven't achieved great success, but the fact he has an eye for leadership others also come to trust in says a lot. And if you don't buy that, my estimation of Harbaugh's coaching really comes down to the scoreboard. His track record at USD, Stanford, San Francisco, and Michigan is beyond stellar.

I have two friends who are phenomenal salespeople. They instantly generate revenue. One joined a firm and generated their fifth largest client that year.  They fired her and their next year's revenue increase was halved, and then halved again the second year after she left.  They lost out on, conservatively, $20 mms. in revenue those two years. Another joined a firm and led them to their best revenue increase across two decades. They let him go.

 Both had personality issues.  Both made people stretch -- uncomfortably -- for success.  Some people are like that.  Many people can't take people with those personality styles.

[BostonCard]

I believe that beyond swear words, the autocorrect only substitutes two words: hüge, which gets changed to “brobdingnagian” and “Heïsman”, which gets changed to “Voldemort”.

The autocorrect for “hüge” goes all the way back to the Stanford-Texas game in 1999, when it was declared by a long-time poster to be a “hüge” game, and which we lost by a very large margin.  That word has been banned ever since.

The issue with the New York Athletic Club award surfaced after the fourth time that a Stanford candidate came second for the award, despite being the best candidate.  Thus, it became the award that shall not be named.

There used to be autocorrects against our three rivals, my favorite being that Notre Dame autocorrected to “University of Dead Fake Girlfriends” in honor of Manti Te’o, though technically, the fake dead girlfriend was a fake Stanford student.

Inveighing against the autocorrect on this board is a bit like lamenting that the Stanford band doesn’t march in formations.  It’s a bit what makes the Cardboard the Cardboard.  You might feel like it elicits an eye roll, but if you don’t like it, I think Yvonne offers a money back satisfaction guarantee.  The board is run purely on the basis of her goodwill and volunteer efforts.

BC

[BostonCard]

I believe that beyond swear words, the autocorrect only substitutes two words: hüge, which gets changed to “brobdingnagian” and “Heïsman”, which gets changed to “Voldemort”.

The autocorrect for “hüge” goes all the way back to the Stanford-Texas game in 1999, when it was declared by a long-time poster to be a “hüge” game, and which we lost by a very large margin.  That word has been banned ever since.

The issue with the New York Athletic Club award surfaced after the fourth time that a Stanford candidate came second for the award, despite being the best candidate.  Thus, it became the award that shall not be named.

There used to be autocorrects against our three rivals, my favorite being that Notre Dame autocorrected to “University of Dead Fake Girlfriends” in honor of Manti Te’o, though technically, the fake dead girlfriend was a fake Stanford student.

Inveighing against the autocorrect on this board is a bit like lamenting that the Stanford band doesn’t march in formations.  It’s a bit what makes the Cardboard the Cardboard.  You might feel like it elicits an eye roll, but if you don’t like it, I think Yvonne offers a money back satisfaction guarantee.  The board is run purely on the basis of her goodwill and volunteer efforts.

BC

[BostonCard]

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

I agree fundamentally with your post; Harbaugh is a phenomenal coach and a master turnaround artist.  In the end, results are what matters, and Harbaugh has them in spades.

That being said, Pete Carroll probably takes issue with the quoted passage, given that, at every level, he has achieved what has eluded Harbaugh: a national championship (two, actually) in college, and a Super Bowl championship (ironically, beating Harbaugh’s Niners along the way).

BC

[BostonCard]

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

I agree fundamentally with your post; Harbaugh is a phenomenal coach and a master turnaround artist.  In the end, results are what matters, and Harbaugh has them in spades.

That being said, Pete Carroll probably takes issue with the quoted passage, given that, at every level, he has achieved what has eluded Harbaugh: a national championship (two, actually) in college, and a Super Bowl championship (ironically, beating Harbaugh’s Niners along the way).

BC

[Goose]

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

I agree fundamentally with your post; Harbaugh is a phenomenal coach and a master turnaround artist.  In the end, results are what matters, and Harbaugh has them in spades.

That being said, Pete Carroll probably takes issue with the quoted passage, given that, at every level, he has achieved what has eluded Harbaugh: a national championship (two, actually) in college, and a Super Bowl championship (ironically, beating Harbaugh’s Niners along the way).

BC

It is interesting to note that Carroll was not always able to deliver wins. He was fired twice as an NFL head coach and had a record of 33-31 in the NFL when he went to U$C. At U$C he was very successful initially and then tailed off a bit. His record there was 97-19. The performance at U$C is IMHO unquestionably a great coaching record. Subsequently his tenure at Seattle has been very good but not superb. He has a .619 winning percentage and has not repeated his Super Bowl win in 2013. Applying the "Just win baby." criteria is perhaps more complex that it appears.  Just for comparison, JH's winning percentage at Michigan is .717. Lloyd Carr's is .753.

[Goose]

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

I agree fundamentally with your post; Harbaugh is a phenomenal coach and a master turnaround artist.  In the end, results are what matters, and Harbaugh has them in spades.

That being said, Pete Carroll probably takes issue with the quoted passage, given that, at every level, he has achieved what has eluded Harbaugh: a national championship (two, actually) in college, and a Super Bowl championship (ironically, beating Harbaugh’s Niners along the way).

BC

It is interesting to note that Carroll was not always able to deliver wins. He was fired twice as an NFL head coach and had a record of 33-31 in the NFL when he went to U$C. At U$C he was very successful initially and then tailed off a bit. His record there was 97-19. The performance at U$C is IMHO unquestionably a great coaching record. Subsequently his tenure at Seattle has been very good but not superb. He has a .619 winning percentage and has not repeated his Super Bowl win in 2013. Applying the "Just win baby." criteria is perhaps more complex that it appears.  Just for comparison, JH's winning percentage at Michigan is .717. Lloyd Carr's is .753.

[BigJohn043]

Harbaugh was a tireless recruiter and would go as far as spending the night at recruits' homes.  He was also an innovator. Instead of waiting to check grades and transcripts near a recruits final season, he identified talented and intelligent kids earlier in the process and encouraged them to take AP classes to enhance their chances of getting accepted by their senior year.  

Shaw doesn't appear to put the hard work in recruiting like Harbaugh. You could find Shaw at a basketball game the night before National Signing Day looking relaxed. I doubt Harbaugh did the same. He'd be on the phone all night convincing fence-sitters to come to Stanford.

---

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

I don't think there is any doubt that JH was willing to work harder than almost any coach out there.  No one doubts his drive.

But JH is a really strange individual.  I can't believe anyone thinks he would be good at sitting in the living room and building rapport with recruits and their families.

JH's crazy intensity is what makes him such a good coach but a mediocre recruiter....

[BigJohn043]

Harbaugh was a tireless recruiter and would go as far as spending the night at recruits' homes.  He was also an innovator. Instead of waiting to check grades and transcripts near a recruits final season, he identified talented and intelligent kids earlier in the process and encouraged them to take AP classes to enhance their chances of getting accepted by their senior year.  

Shaw doesn't appear to put the hard work in recruiting like Harbaugh. You could find Shaw at a basketball game the night before National Signing Day looking relaxed. I doubt Harbaugh did the same. He'd be on the phone all night convincing fence-sitters to come to Stanford.

---

Forgot to add that Shaw's recruiting classes often went unfilled with many spots remaining open.  If memory serves, one of the recruiting classes had only 14 signed football players.  That's unacceptable. I remember one year when our lone O-line recruit was a gentleman named Oser...and he medically retired soon thereafter.  Not long ago, due to injuries and lack of bodies, we were down to one scholarship athlete on the O-line and that was a true freshman.  Shaw's low recruiting numbers came back to bite us.

I don't think there is any doubt that JH was willing to work harder than almost any coach out there.  No one doubts his drive.

But JH is a really strange individual.  I can't believe anyone thinks he would be good at sitting in the living room and building rapport with recruits and their families.

JH's crazy intensity is what makes him such a good coach but a mediocre recruiter....

[Mick]

Inveighing against the autocorrect on this board is a bit like lamenting that the Stanford band doesn’t march in formations.  It’s a bit what makes the Cardboard the Cardboard.  You might feel like it elicits an eye roll, but if you don’t like it, I think Yvonne offers a money back satisfaction guarantee.  The board is run purely on the basis of her goodwill and volunteer efforts.

BC

I like it, Yvonne, please keep it up... ;)

---

It is interesting to note that Carroll was not always able to deliver wins. He was fired twice as an NFL head coach and had a record of 33-31 in the NFL when he went to U$C. At U$C he was very successful initially and then tailed off a bit. His record there was 97-19. The performance at U$C is IMHO unquestionably a great coaching record. Subsequently his tenure at Seattle has been very good but not superb. He has a .619 winning percentage and has not repeated his Super Bowl win in 2013. Applying the "Just win baby." criteria is perhaps more complex that it appears.  Just for comparison, JH's winning percentage at Michigan is .717. Lloyd Carr's is .753.

Carr took over from Bo Schembechler (.796) and Gary Moeller (.758).  Harbaugh took over from Rich Rod (.405) and Brady Hoke (.608).

[Mick]

Inveighing against the autocorrect on this board is a bit like lamenting that the Stanford band doesn’t march in formations.  It’s a bit what makes the Cardboard the Cardboard.  You might feel like it elicits an eye roll, but if you don’t like it, I think Yvonne offers a money back satisfaction guarantee.  The board is run purely on the basis of her goodwill and volunteer efforts.

BC

I like it, Yvonne, please keep it up... ;)

---

It is interesting to note that Carroll was not always able to deliver wins. He was fired twice as an NFL head coach and had a record of 33-31 in the NFL when he went to U$C. At U$C he was very successful initially and then tailed off a bit. His record there was 97-19. The performance at U$C is IMHO unquestionably a great coaching record. Subsequently his tenure at Seattle has been very good but not superb. He has a .619 winning percentage and has not repeated his Super Bowl win in 2013. Applying the "Just win baby." criteria is perhaps more complex that it appears.  Just for comparison, JH's winning percentage at Michigan is .717. Lloyd Carr's is .753.

Carr took over from Bo Schembechler (.796) and Gary Moeller (.758).  Harbaugh took over from Rich Rod (.405) and Brady Hoke (.608).

[BostonCard]

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

I agree fundamentally with your post; Harbaugh is a phenomenal coach and a master turnaround artist.  In the end, results are what matters, and Harbaugh has them in spades.

That being said, Pete Carroll probably takes issue with the quoted passage, given that, at every level, he has achieved what has eluded Harbaugh: a national championship (two, actually) in college, and a Super Bowl championship (ironically, beating Harbaugh’s Niners along the way).

BC

It is interesting to note that Carroll was not always able to deliver wins. He was fired twice as an NFL head coach and had a record of 33-31 in the NFL when he went to U$C. At U$C he was very successful initially and then tailed off a bit. His record there was 97-19. The performance at U$C is IMHO unquestionably a great coaching record. Subsequently his tenure at Seattle has been very good but not superb. He has a .619 winning percentage and has not repeated his Super Bowl win in 2013. Applying the "Just win baby." criteria is perhaps more complex that it appears.  Just for comparison, JH's winning percentage at Michigan is .717. Lloyd Carr's is .753.

Even Bill Belichick was not always able to deliver wins as a head coach, and went 36-44 with the Browns.  I think there are too many other variables in the NFL outside of intrinsic coaching ability, which is why great college coaches, especially those who win on the basis of their recruiting superiority (eg Nick Saban) can struggle in the pros. But there is no question that Carroll “has succeeded” at all levels, even though he has also had some ups and downs.  Also, there is the matter of USC being sanctioned under his watch.  But still, not many coaches have coached a national championship and Super Bowl championship ( there are three; the other two might be a good subject for the trivia thread).

BC

[BostonCard]

Just an absolutely incredible coach. Now that Urban Meyer has failed in the NFL, I am not sure there is a coach in the sport who has succeeded at all levels like Harbaugh has. Phenomenal coach.

I agree fundamentally with your post; Harbaugh is a phenomenal coach and a master turnaround artist.  In the end, results are what matters, and Harbaugh has them in spades.

That being said, Pete Carroll probably takes issue with the quoted passage, given that, at every level, he has achieved what has eluded Harbaugh: a national championship (two, actually) in college, and a Super Bowl championship (ironically, beating Harbaugh’s Niners along the way).

BC

It is interesting to note that Carroll was not always able to deliver wins. He was fired twice as an NFL head coach and had a record of 33-31 in the NFL when he went to U$C. At U$C he was very successful initially and then tailed off a bit. His record there was 97-19. The performance at U$C is IMHO unquestionably a great coaching record. Subsequently his tenure at Seattle has been very good but not superb. He has a .619 winning percentage and has not repeated his Super Bowl win in 2013. Applying the "Just win baby." criteria is perhaps more complex that it appears.  Just for comparison, JH's winning percentage at Michigan is .717. Lloyd Carr's is .753.

Even Bill Belichick was not always able to deliver wins as a head coach, and went 36-44 with the Browns.  I think there are too many other variables in the NFL outside of intrinsic coaching ability, which is why great college coaches, especially those who win on the basis of their recruiting superiority (eg Nick Saban) can struggle in the pros. But there is no question that Carroll “has succeeded” at all levels, even though he has also had some ups and downs.  Also, there is the matter of USC being sanctioned under his watch.  But still, not many coaches have coached a national championship and Super Bowl championship ( there are three; the other two might be a good subject for the trivia thread).

BC

[Goose]

Carr took over from Bo Schembechler (.796) and Gary Moeller (.758).  Harbaugh took over from Rich Rod (.405) and Brady Hoke (.608).

I would buy that argument if JH started with mediocre records and improved monotonically. That is what he did at Stanford. However, he didn't at Michigan. He started out with two 10-3 years and then has been a bit more up and down. The last two seasons were the most down then up. Using the arguments many on this board seem to like, two of his best years were with Hoke's recruits. JH has also been at Michigan long enough (7 years) that it is certainly his baby by now.

I think a better argument is that the B1G changed a lot during the Rich Rod and Hoke years. It is now much harder to match Bo (or even Moeller) in winning percentage. The level of competition is different both inside the B1G and outside it for recruits. My threshold is that if you win 80% of your games for "several" (5 or more is nice) years, you are without a doubt a great coach. No discussion possible. Very, very few can do that. You may be a great coach if you "only" win 75% (or so) of your games, but then it is a discussion. It then matters who you beat, how you did in terms of conference championships etc. What JH does now will tell the story. If he goes on a tear, he can get into the discussion as a "great" coach IMHO. He isn't there yet.
FWIW https://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/footba...oaches.htm shows Moeller at .771 and Bo at .802 "overall".

[Goose]

Carr took over from Bo Schembechler (.796) and Gary Moeller (.758).  Harbaugh took over from Rich Rod (.405) and Brady Hoke (.608).

I would buy that argument if JH started with mediocre records and improved monotonically. That is what he did at Stanford. However, he didn't at Michigan. He started out with two 10-3 years and then has been a bit more up and down. The last two seasons were the most down then up. Using the arguments many on this board seem to like, two of his best years were with Hoke's recruits. JH has also been at Michigan long enough (7 years) that it is certainly his baby by now.

I think a better argument is that the B1G changed a lot during the Rich Rod and Hoke years. It is now much harder to match Bo (or even Moeller) in winning percentage. The level of competition is different both inside the B1G and outside it for recruits. My threshold is that if you win 80% of your games for "several" (5 or more is nice) years, you are without a doubt a great coach. No discussion possible. Very, very few can do that. You may be a great coach if you "only" win 75% (or so) of your games, but then it is a discussion. It then matters who you beat, how you did in terms of conference championships etc. What JH does now will tell the story. If he goes on a tear, he can get into the discussion as a "great" coach IMHO. He isn't there yet.
FWIW https://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/footba...oaches.htm shows Moeller at .771 and Bo at .802 "overall".