[Goose]

I will undoubtedly receive plenty of disagreement, but IMO he absolutely must quit. He has had way too many "serious" concussions already. He is clearly "concussion prone". It may be something about his physiology. It may be something about how he plays the game. It may be both. Whatever the cause, he has had many more serious concussions than the "average" player. He will receive a minimum of 90 million dollars if he retires. It will be even more if the retirement is considered "medically related". He is clearly set for life and doesn't need to continue playing for financial reasons.

Football is at best a "rough" game. Players can be seriously injured on any given play. They know this. However, on most plays nobody is. The repeated head injuries Tua Tagovailoa has already received could lead to serious neurological in both the immediate and distant future. His risk is much higher than the "average player" at this point. It does indeed suck that he can't continue playing the game he presumably loves. However, the NFL certainly doesn't want to deal with the disastrously bad publicity that will accompany the onset of these neurological issues. In Tua's case there will be no ambiguity. It will be absolutely football related. Yes, it is possible he could continue playing, have many more concussions, and still have no "serious" neurological consequences.  However, his odds are not good. IMO the NFL should retire him if he doesn't chose to do so himself.

[Goose]

I will undoubtedly receive plenty of disagreement, but IMO he absolutely must quit. He has had way too many "serious" concussions already. He is clearly "concussion prone". It may be something about his physiology. It may be something about how he plays the game. It may be both. Whatever the cause, he has had many more serious concussions than the "average" player. He will receive a minimum of 90 million dollars if he retires. It will be even more if the retirement is considered "medically related". He is clearly set for life and doesn't need to continue playing for financial reasons.

Football is at best a "rough" game. Players can be seriously injured on any given play. They know this. However, on most plays nobody is. The repeated head injuries Tua Tagovailoa has already received could lead to serious neurological in both the immediate and distant future. His risk is much higher than the "average player" at this point. It does indeed suck that he can't continue playing the game he presumably loves. However, the NFL certainly doesn't want to deal with the disastrously bad publicity that will accompany the onset of these neurological issues. In Tua's case there will be no ambiguity. It will be absolutely football related. Yes, it is possible he could continue playing, have many more concussions, and still have no "serious" neurological consequences.  However, his odds are not good. IMO the NFL should retire him if he doesn't chose to do so himself.

[dabigv13]

I agree he should retire. But the the risks are pretty known now. If he wants to continue I think he should be able to. There are many dangerous jobs for your current or long term health that aren't compensated nearly as well as an NFL player; loggers, oil rig divers, roofers, miners etc.

Tua doesn't need the money, and for his sake I hope he does retire. But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, so I don't see any strong moral or ethical reason to restrain his personal autonomy.

[dabigv13]

I agree he should retire. But the the risks are pretty known now. If he wants to continue I think he should be able to. There are many dangerous jobs for your current or long term health that aren't compensated nearly as well as an NFL player; loggers, oil rig divers, roofers, miners etc.

Tua doesn't need the money, and for his sake I hope he does retire. But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, so I don't see any strong moral or ethical reason to restrain his personal autonomy.

[Goose]

I agree he should retire. But the the risks are pretty known now. If he wants to continue I think he should be able to. There are many dangerous jobs for your current or long term health that aren't compensated nearly as well as an NFL player; loggers, oil rig divers, roofers, miners etc.

Tua doesn't need the money, and for his sake I hope he does retire. But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, so I don't see any strong moral or ethical reason to restrain his personal autonomy.

I understand your point. In general, restraining anyone's freedom is to be avoided. However from the NFL point of view if he continues to play and subsequently suffers from severe neurological problems the resulting publicity could be very, very harmful to the league. The public does expect the NFL to "police" the game and reduce (as much as possible) the dangers of playing. The NFL makes players wear helmets. You aren't allowed to play without one. You also can't play without a face mask with specific properties. College football was actually banned at one point as "too violent". It is clearly in the interest of the NFL to limit player injuries.

Tua is a greater risk than other players. I would argue that the NFL can't ethically be an "enabler" of that "excess" risk. Whether it is ethical or not, from a PR point of view enabling that excess risk is itself a risk to the NFL. Given the climate of concern about football player's head injuries it is arguably very advisable to not let it happen.

[Goose]

I agree he should retire. But the the risks are pretty known now. If he wants to continue I think he should be able to. There are many dangerous jobs for your current or long term health that aren't compensated nearly as well as an NFL player; loggers, oil rig divers, roofers, miners etc.

Tua doesn't need the money, and for his sake I hope he does retire. But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, so I don't see any strong moral or ethical reason to restrain his personal autonomy.

I understand your point. In general, restraining anyone's freedom is to be avoided. However from the NFL point of view if he continues to play and subsequently suffers from severe neurological problems the resulting publicity could be very, very harmful to the league. The public does expect the NFL to "police" the game and reduce (as much as possible) the dangers of playing. The NFL makes players wear helmets. You aren't allowed to play without one. You also can't play without a face mask with specific properties. College football was actually banned at one point as "too violent". It is clearly in the interest of the NFL to limit player injuries.

Tua is a greater risk than other players. I would argue that the NFL can't ethically be an "enabler" of that "excess" risk. Whether it is ethical or not, from a PR point of view enabling that excess risk is itself a risk to the NFL. Given the climate of concern about football player's head injuries it is arguably very advisable to not let it happen.

[dabigv13]

True, the PR concerns are valid for the NFL. I think they are somewhat disingenuous, the league is still built on violence that wrecks people's bodies and brains and that won't change if Tua has to retire. But if he had another hit that had catastrophic sequela it would certainly be a bad look. How many concussions is too many? There is no guideline on that, it would be arbitrary.

Probably the simplest thing for the league and Dolphins would be if Dolphins medical staff just refused to clear him ever again.

But I'm not sure what other enforcement mechanism the NFL could take if Tua still wants to play. I don't think the league has any way of making that happen apart from somehow leaning on the nominally independent medical staff of any NFL team that wanted to sign him.

[dabigv13]

True, the PR concerns are valid for the NFL. I think they are somewhat disingenuous, the league is still built on violence that wrecks people's bodies and brains and that won't change if Tua has to retire. But if he had another hit that had catastrophic sequela it would certainly be a bad look. How many concussions is too many? There is no guideline on that, it would be arbitrary.

Probably the simplest thing for the league and Dolphins would be if Dolphins medical staff just refused to clear him ever again.

But I'm not sure what other enforcement mechanism the NFL could take if Tua still wants to play. I don't think the league has any way of making that happen apart from somehow leaning on the nominally independent medical staff of any NFL team that wanted to sign him.

[Goose]

True, the PR concerns are valid for the NFL. I think they are somewhat disingenuous, the league is still built on violence that wrecks people's bodies and brains and that won't change if Tua has to retire. But if he had another hit that had catastrophic sequela it would certainly be a bad look. How many concussions is too many? There is no guideline on that, it would be arbitrary.

You are right that the league (using the most "conservative" evaluation) hazards the health of every player in every play. IMO they "get by" by reinforcing the idea that injuries are largely random. In Tua's case they can't argue that. It is clear his odds are "worse". There is no absolute guideline, but hiding behind that kind of jeopardizes the "random" argument. PR-wise that won't work.

Probably the simplest thing for the league and Dolphins would be if Dolphins medical staff just refused to clear him ever again.

Indeed. If the medical staff won't make that decision on their own IMO the ownership should "advise" them of said ownership's PR risk aversion.

But I'm not sure what other enforcement mechanism the NFL could take if Tua still wants to play. I don't think the league has any way of making that happen apart from somehow leaning on the nominally independent medical staff of any NFL team that wanted to sign him.

The NFL can lean on the owners to not sign him. This probably isn't strictly "legal" but we all know it happens. It may be the pressure need not be explicit. If the NFL simply "explains" why it is a bad idea it is probable that all the teams will draw the same conclusion and act accordingly.

[Goose]

True, the PR concerns are valid for the NFL. I think they are somewhat disingenuous, the league is still built on violence that wrecks people's bodies and brains and that won't change if Tua has to retire. But if he had another hit that had catastrophic sequela it would certainly be a bad look. How many concussions is too many? There is no guideline on that, it would be arbitrary.

You are right that the league (using the most "conservative" evaluation) hazards the health of every player in every play. IMO they "get by" by reinforcing the idea that injuries are largely random. In Tua's case they can't argue that. It is clear his odds are "worse". There is no absolute guideline, but hiding behind that kind of jeopardizes the "random" argument. PR-wise that won't work.

Probably the simplest thing for the league and Dolphins would be if Dolphins medical staff just refused to clear him ever again.

Indeed. If the medical staff won't make that decision on their own IMO the ownership should "advise" them of said ownership's PR risk aversion.

But I'm not sure what other enforcement mechanism the NFL could take if Tua still wants to play. I don't think the league has any way of making that happen apart from somehow leaning on the nominally independent medical staff of any NFL team that wanted to sign him.

The NFL can lean on the owners to not sign him. This probably isn't strictly "legal" but we all know it happens. It may be the pressure need not be explicit. If the NFL simply "explains" why it is a bad idea it is probable that all the teams will draw the same conclusion and act accordingly.

[qwerty49]

But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, 

I wonder how the player who puts the "final" hit on him would feel?  I'm not a shrink but IMHO that kind of thing can really haunt you.

The NFL can lean on the owners to not sign him. 

 In other words he could be Kaepernicked?

[qwerty49]

But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, 

I wonder how the player who puts the "final" hit on him would feel?  I'm not a shrink but IMHO that kind of thing can really haunt you.

The NFL can lean on the owners to not sign him. 

 In other words he could be Kaepernicked?

[Goose]

The NFL can lean on the owners to not sign him. 

 In other words he could be Kaepernicked?

I didn't want to say that, but yes.

[Goose]

The NFL can lean on the owners to not sign him. 

 In other words he could be Kaepernicked?

I didn't want to say that, but yes.

[dabigv13]

But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, 

I wonder how the player who puts the "final" hit on him would feel?  I'm not a shrink but IMHO that kind of thing can really haunt you.

That is was Damar Hamilton who made the tackle is quite a coincidence, less than two years after he almost died on the field.

His perspective is interesting I think in relation to your question.

Hamlin would like to say he didn’t give Tagovailoa’s posture deeper thought than any other player might, but that wouldn’t be entirely honest.

“It’s trauma. It will always be there,” Hamlin said at his stall in the visitors locker room. “I’m able to not be affected by it because of the work that I’ve done. I went through trauma therapy. I have a psychologist I talk to. It’s allowed me to push my mind forward, push my process forward.

“I did the hard stuff last year as far as putting the pads on, tackling, getting game-ready to know that I’m now perfectly fine and perfectly able to go back and play.”

...

Many in the football world went on social media to tell Tagovailoa to retire, that long-term brain issues aren’t worth even the gargantuan four-year, $212.4 million contract he signed at training camp.

Strangers begged Hamlin not to play anymore, too.

“You’ve got to tune all that out,” Hamlin said. “At the end of the day, there’s nobody lining up on the field with you except the people that’s on your side. Ain’t nobody in the room with you when the cameras are off besides your family. Those are the opinions that matter.”

Hamlin added encouragement.

“Prayers to him,” Hamlin said. “I hope he has a speedy recovery.

“I know he’s a dog. He’s a fighter. He’ll be back soon, for sure.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5764639...-dolphins/

[dabigv13]

But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, 

I wonder how the player who puts the "final" hit on him would feel?  I'm not a shrink but IMHO that kind of thing can really haunt you.

That is was Damar Hamilton who made the tackle is quite a coincidence, less than two years after he almost died on the field.

His perspective is interesting I think in relation to your question.

Hamlin would like to say he didn’t give Tagovailoa’s posture deeper thought than any other player might, but that wouldn’t be entirely honest.

“It’s trauma. It will always be there,” Hamlin said at his stall in the visitors locker room. “I’m able to not be affected by it because of the work that I’ve done. I went through trauma therapy. I have a psychologist I talk to. It’s allowed me to push my mind forward, push my process forward.

“I did the hard stuff last year as far as putting the pads on, tackling, getting game-ready to know that I’m now perfectly fine and perfectly able to go back and play.”

...

Many in the football world went on social media to tell Tagovailoa to retire, that long-term brain issues aren’t worth even the gargantuan four-year, $212.4 million contract he signed at training camp.

Strangers begged Hamlin not to play anymore, too.

“You’ve got to tune all that out,” Hamlin said. “At the end of the day, there’s nobody lining up on the field with you except the people that’s on your side. Ain’t nobody in the room with you when the cameras are off besides your family. Those are the opinions that matter.”

Hamlin added encouragement.

“Prayers to him,” Hamlin said. “I hope he has a speedy recovery.

“I know he’s a dog. He’s a fighter. He’ll be back soon, for sure.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5764639...-dolphins/

[qwerty49]

But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, 

I wonder how the player who puts the "final" hit on him would feel?  I'm not a shrink but IMHO that kind of thing can really haunt you.

That is was Damar Hamilton who made the tackle is quite a coincidence, less than two years after he almost died on the field.

His perspective is interesting I think in relation to your question.

Hamlin would like to say he didn’t give Tagovailoa’s posture deeper thought than any other player might, but that wouldn’t be entirely honest.

“It’s trauma. It will always be there,” Hamlin said at his stall in the visitors locker room. “I’m able to not be affected by it because of the work that I’ve done. I went through trauma therapy. I have a psychologist I talk to. It’s allowed me to push my mind forward, push my process forward.

“I did the hard stuff last year as far as putting the pads on, tackling, getting game-ready to know that I’m now perfectly fine and perfectly able to go back and play.”

...

Many in the football world went on social media to tell Tagovailoa to retire, that long-term brain issues aren’t worth even the gargantuan four-year, $212.4 million contract he signed at training camp.

Strangers begged Hamlin not to play anymore, too.

“You’ve got to tune all that out,” Hamlin said. “At the end of the day, there’s nobody lining up on the field with you except the people that’s on your side. Ain’t nobody in the room with you when the cameras are off besides your family. Those are the opinions that matter.”

Hamlin added encouragement.

“Prayers to him,” Hamlin said. “I hope he has a speedy recovery.

“I know he’s a dog. He’s a fighter. He’ll be back soon, for sure.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5764639...-dolphins/

Actually I was talking about a potential fatal hit (God forbid).

The Tatum hit on Darryl Stingley came close.

[qwerty49]

But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, 

I wonder how the player who puts the "final" hit on him would feel?  I'm not a shrink but IMHO that kind of thing can really haunt you.

That is was Damar Hamilton who made the tackle is quite a coincidence, less than two years after he almost died on the field.

His perspective is interesting I think in relation to your question.

Hamlin would like to say he didn’t give Tagovailoa’s posture deeper thought than any other player might, but that wouldn’t be entirely honest.

“It’s trauma. It will always be there,” Hamlin said at his stall in the visitors locker room. “I’m able to not be affected by it because of the work that I’ve done. I went through trauma therapy. I have a psychologist I talk to. It’s allowed me to push my mind forward, push my process forward.

“I did the hard stuff last year as far as putting the pads on, tackling, getting game-ready to know that I’m now perfectly fine and perfectly able to go back and play.”

...

Many in the football world went on social media to tell Tagovailoa to retire, that long-term brain issues aren’t worth even the gargantuan four-year, $212.4 million contract he signed at training camp.

Strangers begged Hamlin not to play anymore, too.

“You’ve got to tune all that out,” Hamlin said. “At the end of the day, there’s nobody lining up on the field with you except the people that’s on your side. Ain’t nobody in the room with you when the cameras are off besides your family. Those are the opinions that matter.”

Hamlin added encouragement.

“Prayers to him,” Hamlin said. “I hope he has a speedy recovery.

“I know he’s a dog. He’s a fighter. He’ll be back soon, for sure.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5764639...-dolphins/

Actually I was talking about a potential fatal hit (God forbid).

The Tatum hit on Darryl Stingley came close.

[needle]

This thread got me to look up former Stanford WR Chris Owusu on IG. From the looks of it, he's thriving, fwiw. He was badly concussed while playing for Stanford.

Story after Owusu's fourth concussion in 2015 when he was with the Jets (he would have yet another consussion a few weeks after this story was published, and his NFL career ended shortly thereafter):

https://nypost.com/2015/09/02/four-concu...make-jets/

 After his most recent concussion, Owusu discussed his options with his parents, who live in Oxnard, Calif.

“It was my first one in three years, so that’s what I treated it like,” Owusu said, “because I’ve been taking care of my head ever since my concussion in college.”

He was carted off the field into an ambulance following his third concussion in college, which ended his senior year.

“I just wanted to give a thumbs-up to let people know I was all right,” Owusu said. “All my symptoms went away within a week. They all pretty much were the same for me. I, of course since then, have been doing my research and also just make sure that I just take care of my head better.”  

[needle]

This thread got me to look up former Stanford WR Chris Owusu on IG. From the looks of it, he's thriving, fwiw. He was badly concussed while playing for Stanford.

Story after Owusu's fourth concussion in 2015 when he was with the Jets (he would have yet another consussion a few weeks after this story was published, and his NFL career ended shortly thereafter):

https://nypost.com/2015/09/02/four-concu...make-jets/

 After his most recent concussion, Owusu discussed his options with his parents, who live in Oxnard, Calif.

“It was my first one in three years, so that’s what I treated it like,” Owusu said, “because I’ve been taking care of my head ever since my concussion in college.”

He was carted off the field into an ambulance following his third concussion in college, which ended his senior year.

“I just wanted to give a thumbs-up to let people know I was all right,” Owusu said. “All my symptoms went away within a week. They all pretty much were the same for me. I, of course since then, have been doing my research and also just make sure that I just take care of my head better.”  

[Mick]

The NFL can lean on the owners to not sign him. 

 In other words he could be Kaepernicked?

I didn't want to say that, but yes.

In that case, he would be Kaeperpickled...

---

But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, 

I wonder how the player who puts the "final" hit on him would feel?  I'm not a shrink but IMHO that kind of thing can really haunt you.

That is was Damar Hamilton who made the tackle is quite a coincidence, less than two years after he almost died on the field.

His perspective is interesting I think in relation to your question.

Hamlin would like to say he didn’t give Tagovailoa’s posture deeper thought than any other player might, but that wouldn’t be entirely honest.

“It’s trauma. It will always be there,” Hamlin said at his stall in the visitors locker room. “I’m able to not be affected by it because of the work that I’ve done. I went through trauma therapy. I have a psychologist I talk to. It’s allowed me to push my mind forward, push my process forward.

“I did the hard stuff last year as far as putting the pads on, tackling, getting game-ready to know that I’m now perfectly fine and perfectly able to go back and play.”

...

Many in the football world went on social media to tell Tagovailoa to retire, that long-term brain issues aren’t worth even the gargantuan four-year, $212.4 million contract he signed at training camp.

Strangers begged Hamlin not to play anymore, too.

“You’ve got to tune all that out,” Hamlin said. “At the end of the day, there’s nobody lining up on the field with you except the people that’s on your side. Ain’t nobody in the room with you when the cameras are off besides your family. Those are the opinions that matter.”

Hamlin added encouragement.

“Prayers to him,” Hamlin said. “I hope he has a speedy recovery.

“I know he’s a dog. He’s a fighter. He’ll be back soon, for sure.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5764639...-dolphins/

Actually I was talking about a potential fatal hit (God forbid).

The Tatum hit on Darryl Stingley came close.

Eagles WR Chuck Hughes remains the only NFL player who died on the field. Heart attack, age 28. Chuck still holds a lot of records at Texas Western/UTEP. 4th round selection, 1967.

Chuck was actually injured two months earlier in the preseason. They suspected a spleen injury, but couldn't quite figure it out.

Turned out he had advanced arteriosclerosis. One of his valves was 75% blocked. There was family history of it. Died of a myorcardial infarction.

Chuck Hughes - Wikipedia

[Mick]

The NFL can lean on the owners to not sign him. 

 In other words he could be Kaepernicked?

I didn't want to say that, but yes.

In that case, he would be Kaeperpickled...

---

But if he wants to keep playing, he would only be harming himself, 

I wonder how the player who puts the "final" hit on him would feel?  I'm not a shrink but IMHO that kind of thing can really haunt you.

That is was Damar Hamilton who made the tackle is quite a coincidence, less than two years after he almost died on the field.

His perspective is interesting I think in relation to your question.

Hamlin would like to say he didn’t give Tagovailoa’s posture deeper thought than any other player might, but that wouldn’t be entirely honest.

“It’s trauma. It will always be there,” Hamlin said at his stall in the visitors locker room. “I’m able to not be affected by it because of the work that I’ve done. I went through trauma therapy. I have a psychologist I talk to. It’s allowed me to push my mind forward, push my process forward.

“I did the hard stuff last year as far as putting the pads on, tackling, getting game-ready to know that I’m now perfectly fine and perfectly able to go back and play.”

...

Many in the football world went on social media to tell Tagovailoa to retire, that long-term brain issues aren’t worth even the gargantuan four-year, $212.4 million contract he signed at training camp.

Strangers begged Hamlin not to play anymore, too.

“You’ve got to tune all that out,” Hamlin said. “At the end of the day, there’s nobody lining up on the field with you except the people that’s on your side. Ain’t nobody in the room with you when the cameras are off besides your family. Those are the opinions that matter.”

Hamlin added encouragement.

“Prayers to him,” Hamlin said. “I hope he has a speedy recovery.

“I know he’s a dog. He’s a fighter. He’ll be back soon, for sure.”

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5764639...-dolphins/

Actually I was talking about a potential fatal hit (God forbid).

The Tatum hit on Darryl Stingley came close.

Eagles WR Chuck Hughes remains the only NFL player who died on the field. Heart attack, age 28. Chuck still holds a lot of records at Texas Western/UTEP. 4th round selection, 1967.

Chuck was actually injured two months earlier in the preseason. They suspected a spleen injury, but couldn't quite figure it out.

Turned out he had advanced arteriosclerosis. One of his valves was 75% blocked. There was family history of it. Died of a myorcardial infarction.

Chuck Hughes - Wikipedia

[newguy]

i think the Dolphins would look quite good if they simply paid the remainder of his contract and cut him.  they can certainly do so if they want to.

[newguy]

i think the Dolphins would look quite good if they simply paid the remainder of his contract and cut him.  they can certainly do so if they want to.

[dabigv13]

Tua planning to return soon. Had first full practice. Seems like a dumb decision, and even dumber to not wear the Guardian cap that seems effective.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/dolph...-protocol/

[dabigv13]

Tua planning to return soon. Had first full practice. Seems like a dumb decision, and even dumber to not wear the Guardian cap that seems effective.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/dolph...-protocol/

[Mick]

My wife's best friend dated a former 49er (several of them, in fact), a defensive end who had a 10 year career, played well over 100 games. We knew him when he was 34 years old. He had so much physical damage that he was functionally unintelligible. Couldn't understand a word he was saying, though he seemed to have his faculties in order.

[Mick]

My wife's best friend dated a former 49er (several of them, in fact), a defensive end who had a 10 year career, played well over 100 games. We knew him when he was 34 years old. He had so much physical damage that he was functionally unintelligible. Couldn't understand a word he was saying, though he seemed to have his faculties in order.

[Sam Leopold]

Grayson McCall, among the QB's for the team we play next Saturday, must have read this post, as he is stepping aside.

NC State QB Grayson McCall says he's retiring after head injuries - ESPN

[Sam Leopold]

Grayson McCall, among the QB's for the team we play next Saturday, must have read this post, as he is stepping aside.

NC State QB Grayson McCall says he's retiring after head injuries - ESPN