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RE: 2023 Niners thread - cardcrimson - 10-23-2023
What an awful start to the game. CMC fumbles. Dropped first down pass. Missed field goal by Moody. D a sieve. And at the end of the half, Ward has a pick ripped out of his hands, falls down, and the receive waltzes 40 yards into the endzone. Sheesh.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - lex24 - 10-23-2023
cardcrimson dateline='[url=tel:1698109633' Wrote: 1698109633[/url]']
What an awful start to the game. CMC fumbles. Dropped first down pass. Missed field goal by Moody. D a sieve. And at the end of the half, Ward has a pick ripped out of his hands, falls down, and the receive waltzes 40 yards into the endzone. Sheesh.
Defense is sooooooo overrated. No pash rush. D backs not good. Purdy played well. Until 4th quarter……Two awful throws.
Second week in a row - slaughtered at LOS. Both sides of ball.
Back to drawing board.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Giants - 10-23-2023
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698117199' Wrote: 1698117199[/url]']
cardcrimson dateline='[url=tel:1698109633' Wrote: 1698109633[/url]']
What an awful start to the game. CMC fumbles. Dropped first down pass. Missed field goal by Moody. D a sieve. And at the end of the half, Ward has a pick ripped out of his hands, falls down, and the receive waltzes 40 yards into the endzone. Sheesh.
Defense is sooooooo overrated. No pash rush. D backs not good. Purdy played well. Until 4th quarter……Two awful throws.
Second week in a row - slaughtered at LOS. Both sides of ball.
Back to drawing board.
The only relevant question: Does Purdy have to give up his gold jacket?
RE: 2023 Niners thread - jonnyss - 10-23-2023
(10-23-2023, 06:07 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: What an awful start to the game. CMC fumbles. Dropped first down pass. Missed field goal by Moody. D a sieve. And at the end of the half, Ward has a pick ripped out of his hands, falls down, and the receive waltzes 40 yards into the endzone. Sheesh.
imo just a terrible decision by c ward to go for the interception with no help nearby. minnesota has 3rd and long from their own 40. just knock the ball down and the vikings have to punt. an arrogant, me-first play. and maybe poor coaching as well. defense is not fired up this year and makes stupid mistakes. steve wilks just not in the same league with robert saleh or demeco ryans.
and on offense, a terrible play by jennings to end the game. it looks like purdy misses him by a mile, but to my eyes purdy throws the same perfect pass the announcers have been praising all night: 20 yards straight down the middle, released just before the receiver breaks from outside the hash marks to the middle of the field. the ball goes exactly where ayouk and kittle have repeatedly caught the ball on the crossing pattern, but jennings runs a button hook instead of a crossing pattern.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - lex24 - 10-23-2023
jonnyss dateline='[url=tel:1698118450' Wrote: 1698118450[/url]']
cardcrimson dateline='[url=tel:1698109633' Wrote: 1698109633[/url]']
What an awful start to the game. CMC fumbles. Dropped first down pass. Missed field goal by Moody. D a sieve. And at the end of the half, Ward has a pick ripped out of his hands, falls down, and the receive waltzes 40 yards into the endzone. Sheesh.
imo just a terrible decision by c ward to go for the interception with no help nearby. minnesota has 3rd and long from their own 40. just knock the ball down and the vikings have to punt. an arrogant, me-first play. and maybe poor coaching as well. defense is not fired up this year and makes stupid mistakes. steve wilks just not in the same league with robert saleh or demeco ryans.
and on offense, a terrible play by jennings to end the game. it looks like purdy misses him by a mile, but to my eyes purdy throws the same perfect pass the announcers have been praising all night: 20 yards straight down the middle, released just before the receiver breaks from outside the hash marks to the middle of the field. the ball goes exactly where ayouk and kittle have repeatedly caught the ball on the crossing pattern, but jennings runs a button hook instead of a crossing pattern.
Purdy missed both passes badly. As for Ward, it’s a play makers league. He had the int. Fluke play.
But the problem is bigger than a couple plays. They got smoked physically. Second straight week. Last week there were excuses galore. This week?
Defense has been very disappointing.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 10-23-2023
The Niners obviously have really good players on Defense, but the scheme is not allowing them to be sum better than individual parts.
It was positively maddening to see how much time Cousins had to throw on seemingly every drop back. And even when he was pressured, he easily avoided defenders to find space. The DL is suppose to be what makes this team a contender. Bosa and Hargrove are simply not earning their outsized compensation the last two weeks in particular.
The most frustrating sequence of the game was when the Niners were sacked for a 12 yd loss when the Vikings rushed just 3 guys, and the next series the Niners rushed 6 and Cousins easily converted a 3d down that led to a FG.
The last play before half was simply unforgivable. Maybe Ward shouldn’t have gone for the pick, but it’s dumb to rush 6 when the other team has no timeouts and there are 16 seconds left. Let them catch the ball and tackle the receiver downfield and time runs out.
But seriously, how do they rush 6 and not come close to a sack? Super Bowl contending teams don’t make these kinds of errors. If I were Shanahan I would fire Wilks. The defense simply is not performing up to its potential. They even allowed 16 points to the Giants which a defense as good as they are suppose to be shouldn’t do. Fire to let the team know this isn’t acceptable, not because he necessarily is the reason they are not living up to expectations.
It was nice to see Bosa say after the game he is not playing like the player he is suppose to be. He’s at least acknowledging how he isn’t earning his keep this year so far. He demonstrated frustration I’ve never seen from him before after the Vikings loss.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - lex24 - 10-24-2023
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698122736' Wrote: 1698122736[/url]']
The Niners obviously have really good players on Defense, but the scheme is not allowing them to be sum better than individual parts.
It was positively maddening to see how much time Cousins had to throw on seemingly every drop back. And even when he was pressured, he easily avoided defenders to find space. The DL is suppose to be what makes this team a contender. Bosa and Hargrove are simply not earning their outsized compensation the last two weeks in particular.
The most frustrating sequence of the game was when the Niners were sacked for a 12 yd loss when the Vikings rushed just 3 guys, and the next series the Niners rushed 6 and Cousins easily converted a 3d down that led to a FG.
The last play before half was simply unforgivable. Maybe Ward shouldn’t have gone for the pick, but it’s dumb to rush 6 when the other team has no timeouts and there are 16 seconds left. Let them catch the ball and tackle the receiver downfield and time runs out.
But seriously, how do they rush 6 and not come close to a sack? Super Bowl contending teams don’t make these kinds of errors. If I were Shanahan I would fire Wilks. The defense simply is not performing up to its potential. They even allowed 16 points to the Giants which a defense as good as they are suppose to be shouldn’t do. Fire to let the team know this isn’t acceptable, not because he necessarily is the reason they are not living up to expectations.
It was nice to see Bosa say after the game he is not playing like the player he is suppose to be. He’s at least acknowledging how he isn’t earning his keep this year so far. He demonstrated frustration I’ve never seen from him before after the Vikings loss.
Defensive line with Armstead, Hargraaves and Bosa shoukd be elite. Instead, it’s at best average. That has to change. Or this team is going nowhere. DBacks are pedestrian. Trade deadline is Oct 31. Lynch needs to pick someone up if possible. Surtain is apparently available.
It’s like they read the press clippings after Cowboys.
You don’t fire a respected DC to show that his units play is “not acceptable “. If they don’t know that, they are in big trouble.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - jonnyss - 10-24-2023
(10-23-2023, 09:45 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The Niners obviously have really good players on Defense, but the scheme is not allowing them to be sum better than individual parts.
But seriously, how do they rush 6 and not come close to a sack? Super Bowl contending teams don’t make these kinds of errors. If I were Shanahan I would fire Wilks. The defense simply is not performing up to its potential. They even allowed 16 points to the Giants which a defense as good as they are suppose to be shouldn’t do. Fire to let the team know this isn’t acceptable, not because he necessarily is the reason they are not living up to expectations.
speaking of fire, there's defensive scheme and there's attitude. vikings dc brian flores was fired up on the sideline. the last 2 niners defensive coordinators, saleh and ryans, were fired up on the sideline. wilks sits calmly in the booth. might that make a difference as well?
RE: 2023 Niners thread - lex24 - 10-24-2023
jonnyss dateline='[url=tel:1698157506' Wrote: 1698157506[/url]']
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698122736' Wrote: 1698122736[/url]']
The Niners obviously have really good players on Defense, but the scheme is not allowing them to be sum better than individual parts.
But seriously, how do they rush 6 and not come close to a sack? Super Bowl contending teams don’t make these kinds of errors. If I were Shanahan I would fire Wilks. The defense simply is not performing up to its potential. They even allowed 16 points to the Giants which a defense as good as they are suppose to be shouldn’t do. Fire to let the team know this isn’t acceptable, not because he necessarily is the reason they are not living up to expectations.
speaking of fire, there's defensive scheme and there's attitude. vikings dc brian flores was fired up on the sideline. the last 2 niners defensive coordinators, saleh and ryans, were fired up on the sideline. wilks sits calmly in the booth. might that make a difference as well?
It shouldn’t. But it might.
leftcoast - Leftcoast - 10-24-2023
Cousins was very, very good last night and elevated a mediocre team to beat a very good team.
I’m surprised that the 49ers responded so poorly from their first loss and even more surprised that the defense fell short again.
San Francisco is still a very good team but I no longer think they are head-and-shoulders above the other very good NFC teams. They are among that pack, not above it. After all the 49ers failed to beat a 2-4 team the Bucs, Eagles, Chargers, and Chiefs already defeated.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - old spanish trail - 10-24-2023
Fwiw, that's the best I've ever seen Cousins play, and I've seen him quite a bit.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - lex24 - 10-24-2023
old spanish trail dateline='[url=tel:1698165051' Wrote: 1698165051[/url]']
Fwiw, that's the best I've ever seen Cousins play, and I've seen him quite a bit.
45 passes. No sacks. Speaks volumes.
Leftcoast dateline='[url=tel:1698163110' Wrote: 1698163110[/url]']
Cousins was very, very good last night and elevated a mediocre team to beat a very good team.
I’m surprised that the 49ers responded so poorly from their first loss and even more surprised that the defense fell short again.
San Francisco is still a very good team but I no longer think they are head-and-shoulders above the other very good NFC teams. They are among that pack, not above it. After all the 49ers failed to beat a 2-4 team the Bucs, Eagles, Chargers, and Chiefs already defeated.
Defense has not played anywhere close to its potential all year. Especially defensive line. 22nd in sacks. Their defense is predicated on having a dominant front 7. Cause the db’s are pedestrian. And they are getting exposed with lack of pass rush. It started, actually, in Rams game.
Add that their run defense has been bad last two weeks and there you go.
Whatever the issue - be it scheme, effort, etc., they better fix it. Fast.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 10-24-2023
The CBs are not weak, nor are the Safeties or Linebackers. The DL is. That is the problem 100%.
It is exacerbated by a DC who is DB-oriented and likes to blitz. The rush and coverage are not working well together and the greatest advantage the Niners have - Warner and Greenlaw in zone coverage - is compromised when they rush 5-6.
When you can't even get to the QB when you rush 6, with a DL that is suppose to get pressure with 4, something is really, really wrong.
I don't know how the issue is not Steve Wilks. That's really the only meaningfully different denominator from the last few years of largely top tier defense.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - gailtate - 10-24-2023
Looks like the Niners have been handed the chip they need to put on their shoulders, courtesy of Browns and Vikings. Now they need is to keep it there, but Wilks is a bust at DC right now. Really miss Saleh and Ryans.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - lex24 - 10-24-2023
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698166311' Wrote: 1698166311[/url]']
The CBs are not weak, nor are the Safeties or Linebackers. The DL is. That is the problem 100%.
It is exacerbated by a DC who is DB-oriented and likes to blitz. The rush and coverage are not working well together and the greatest advantage the Niners have - Warner and Greenlaw in zone coverage - is compromised when they rush 5-6.
When you can't even get to the QB when you rush 6, with a DL that is suppose to get pressure with 4, something is really, really wrong.
I don't know how the issue is not Steve Wilks. That's really the only meaningfully different denominator from the last few years of largely top tier defense.
They struggled a bit early with Ryans in ‘21. Let’s hope they figure it out. Wilks isn’t going anywhere.
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698166311' Wrote: 1698166311[/url]']
The CBs are not weak, nor are the Safeties or Linebackers. The DL is. That is the problem 100%.
It is exacerbated by a DC who is DB-oriented and likes to blitz. The rush and coverage are not working well together and the greatest advantage the Niners have - Warner and Greenlaw in zone coverage - is compromised when they rush 5-6.
When you can't even get to the QB when you rush 6, with a DL that is suppose to get pressure with 4, something is really, really wrong.
I don't know how the issue is not Steve Wilks. That's really the only meaningfully different denominator from the last few years of largely top tier defense.
Personnel wise, DBacks is their weak link defensively. Safeties play run well. But lack speed.
D line was supposed to be their strength. I mean, weren’t you saying just 2 weeks ago that this was the best roster in 49er history?
I expect Lynch to trade for a DB.
I’m not disagreeing with you on Wilks. But they better adjust. Or he better adjust. Cause I don’t think he’s going to get fired. Niners knew his background and tendencies coming in. Maybe just a bad fit…..
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 10-24-2023
(10-24-2023, 10:35 AM)lex24 Wrote:OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698166311' Wrote: 1698166311[/url]']
The CBs are not weak, nor are the Safeties or Linebackers. The DL is. That is the problem 100%.
It is exacerbated by a DC who is DB-oriented and likes to blitz. The rush and coverage are not working well together and the greatest advantage the Niners have - Warner and Greenlaw in zone coverage - is compromised when they rush 5-6.
When you can't even get to the QB when you rush 6, with a DL that is suppose to get pressure with 4, something is really, really wrong.
I don't know how the issue is not Steve Wilks. That's really the only meaningfully different denominator from the last few years of largely top tier defense.
They struggled a bit early with Ryans in ‘21. Let’s hope they figure it out. Wilks isn’t going anywhere.
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698166311' Wrote: 1698166311[/url]']
The CBs are not weak, nor are the Safeties or Linebackers. The DL is. That is the problem 100%.
It is exacerbated by a DC who is DB-oriented and likes to blitz. The rush and coverage are not working well together and the greatest advantage the Niners have - Warner and Greenlaw in zone coverage - is compromised when they rush 5-6.
When you can't even get to the QB when you rush 6, with a DL that is suppose to get pressure with 4, something is really, really wrong.
I don't know how the issue is not Steve Wilks. That's really the only meaningfully different denominator from the last few years of largely top tier defense.
Personnel wise, DBacks is their weak link defensively. Safeties play run well. But lack speed.
D line was supposed to be their strength. I mean, weren’t you saying just 2 weeks ago that this was the best roster in 49er history?
I expect Lynch to trade for a DB.
I’m not disagreeing with you on Wilks. But they better adjust. Or he better adjust. Cause I don’t think he’s going to get fired. Niners knew his background and tendencies coming in. Maybe just a bad fit…..
It is one of the best rosters they've had, which makes the losses and poor play in last two games baffling. The Cleveland game was not a bad loss given all the circumstances and would have been a W but for many things going right for the Browns and against the Niners. The Vikings physically outclassed the Niners, IMO and it was a bad loss by every measure.
Entering the game the Niners were #2 in PPG and #2 in PPG allowed. The Vikings were #18 and #21. That physical beating should not have happened.
I just heard this insane stat: Out of 45 drop backs, Cousins was pressured just 6 times.
The Vikings faced 13 3rd Downs. So if all pressures faced were on 3rd down, Cousins wasn't pressured on even half of them, and faced no pressure on any 1st or 2nd Down. I mean it doesn't get much worse than that.
I worried Nick Bosa was not the kind of player who was going to produce what is expected of his new contract. His lack of production in the last few games of 2022 season and playoffs really concerned me. But this is a player who was legitimately being talked about as a FHOF, DPROY and DPOY, just falling off a cliff in production. This never happens. Would be like Aaron Donald or TJ Watt all of a sudden turning into an average player overnight. But it appears to be happening with Nick Bosa. He needs to really get into the video study and look at what worked for him last year before his drop-off and see if he can get it back. I had my eye on Bosa for most of the game last night and was shocked by how easily he was contained.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - jonnyss - 10-24-2023
grant cohn on wilks
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Nobadeer - 10-24-2023
(10-24-2023, 11:17 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(10-24-2023, 10:35 AM)lex24 Wrote:OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698166311' Wrote: 1698166311[/url]']
The CBs are not weak, nor are the Safeties or Linebackers. The DL is. That is the problem 100%.
It is exacerbated by a DC who is DB-oriented and likes to blitz. The rush and coverage are not working well together and the greatest advantage the Niners have - Warner and Greenlaw in zone coverage - is compromised when they rush 5-6.
When you can't even get to the QB when you rush 6, with a DL that is suppose to get pressure with 4, something is really, really wrong.
I don't know how the issue is not Steve Wilks. That's really the only meaningfully different denominator from the last few years of largely top tier defense.
They struggled a bit early with Ryans in ‘21. Let’s hope they figure it out. Wilks isn’t going anywhere.
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698166311' Wrote: 1698166311[/url]']
The CBs are not weak, nor are the Safeties or Linebackers. The DL is. That is the problem 100%.
It is exacerbated by a DC who is DB-oriented and likes to blitz. The rush and coverage are not working well together and the greatest advantage the Niners have - Warner and Greenlaw in zone coverage - is compromised when they rush 5-6.
When you can't even get to the QB when you rush 6, with a DL that is suppose to get pressure with 4, something is really, really wrong.
I don't know how the issue is not Steve Wilks. That's really the only meaningfully different denominator from the last few years of largely top tier defense.
Personnel wise, DBacks is their weak link defensively. Safeties play run well. But lack speed.
D line was supposed to be their strength. I mean, weren’t you saying just 2 weeks ago that this was the best roster in 49er history?
I expect Lynch to trade for a DB.
I’m not disagreeing with you on Wilks. But they better adjust. Or he better adjust. Cause I don’t think he’s going to get fired. Niners knew his background and tendencies coming in. Maybe just a bad fit…..
It is one of the best rosters they've had, which makes the losses and poor play in last two games baffling. The Cleveland game was not a bad loss given all the circumstances and would have been a W but for many things going right for the Browns and against the Niners. The Vikings physically outclassed the Niners, IMO and it was a bad loss by every measure.
Entering the game the Niners were #2 in PPG and #2 in PPG allowed. The Vikings were #18 and #21. That physical beating should not have happened.
I just heard this insane stat: Out of 45 drop backs, Cousins was pressured just 6 times.
The Vikings faced 13 3rd Downs. So if all pressures faced were on 3rd down, Cousins wasn't pressured on even half of them, and faced no pressure on any 1st or 2nd Down. I mean it doesn't get much worse than that.
I worried Nick Bosa was not the kind of player who was going to produce what is expected of his new contract. His lack of production in the last few games of 2022 season and playoffs really concerned me. But this is a player who was legitimately being talked about as a FHOF, DPROY and DPOY, just falling off a cliff in production. This never happens. Would be like Aaron Donald or TJ Watt all of a sudden turning into an average player overnight. But it appears to be happening with Nick Bosa. He needs to really get into the video study and look at what worked for him last year before his drop-off and see if he can get it back. I had my eye on Bosa for most of the game last night and was shocked by how easily he was contained.
Agree with you on the alarming decline of Nick Bosa ($ 170 MM contract), who has just 3.5 sacks in his most recent 11 games including the playoffs last season. Hoping he regains his top form soon. Or maybe his bodybuilder dad needs to come up with a new "protein shake" formulation?
RE: 2023 Niners thread - OutsiderFan - 10-25-2023
When coaches say "I have to look at the tape (or film or video)," many fans and media whine that they are just looking to make excuses. But in the NFL, this is the case many times, especially when you have matchups with teams that don't win when they are favored. Like, if Troy Taylor said he needed to look at the tape to know what went wrong after the UCLA game, anyone listening would have laughed because it was so obviously a massive talent disparity on the field.
When I watched the Vikings game, I could tell something was wrong with the defense, especially when it is more talented this year on paper than it was last year, and because it started well this year too. The only difference is there is a different DC. It seemed oversimplified and typical unhinged reactionary fan for me to say "fire Wilks" but that seemed to be the problem. Then I had a friend who's football acumen I respect (he also played longer than I did) tell me "it's the scheme" which is what Wilks is responsible for coordinating.
Then last night I saw Jonnydel talking about the defense and specifically the lack of pressures this year and against he Vikings in particular. He demonstrated, comparing what Ryans did last year to what the Niners are now doing, how Wilks is not doing the things necessary to create advantages for pass rushers. At the same time, the coverages were not matching the pressure tactics against the Vikings.
He was extremely sour on Wilks, not based off of the fact they gave up so many yards and conversions without pressuring Cousins, but because of specifically what they were doing and not doing to allow it to happen. Wilks is allowing Hargrave to be double teamed, and Bosa to be given special attention by not creating favorable pass rushing schemes. Armstead has to play better too. But even bringing extra guys isn't working because too much is predictable and not working as a result.
Jonny did say he doesn't see it being practical to fire Wilks because they would have promoted from within to replace Ryans if they felt there was an internal candidate, so who else could they get? It says to me Kyle Shanahan must get involved with the defense and tell Wilks he has to make changes, and look at what Ryans did. That's probably not going to sit well with Wilks and it's possible a rift develops between him and Shanahan, but something has to be done to unlock the value the Niners are paying for on the DL, and Shanahan is the HEAD Coach, responsible for it all.
The good news is if they can get back to last year's approach that made Bosa DPOY, the team has more potential to go farther. As Lombardi pointed out, the Niners got boat raced by KC last year dropping to 3-4, then ripped off 10 straight wins, so they know it can be done.
RE: 2023 Niners thread - Mick - 10-25-2023
Niners gave up the fewest points in the NFL last year. They've currently given up the fifth fewest points in the NFL.