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RE: lex24 - lex24 - 04-30-2022
(04-29-2022, 09:01 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:(04-29-2022, 07:09 PM)lex24 Wrote:(04-29-2022, 10:15 AM)Giants Wrote:(04-29-2022, 06:03 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Major professional sports are so compelling because they are the only endeavor in which we get to witness extreme competition within the bounds of a regulated competitive landscape with a lot of transparency. Nothing else comes close.
As fans of the teams competing, we want our team to win and push the envelope to do so. When a sport has a salary cap and a team is $100M below that cap, there is clearly a reason to be skeptical that team is "all in" on winning. Any time a team isn't "all in" on winning, the fans can and should be expected to be unsatisfied.
Moreover, we can be fans of a team and not be a rubber stamp for everything the team does. There is a fine line between rooting for and defending a team's actions, and overzealously criticizing it.
The worst thing a fan can do is be blindly loyal to the team to whom they have attached themselves. I see a lot of blind loyalty to the Giants in this thread that makes excuses for and buys into the Giants' propaganda about spending to win.
It simply is not credible to claim the Giants lost Suzuki to the Cubs for "non-financial reasons." The Giants would have landed him if they offered more money than the Cubs. Just like they landed Rodon because they offered the most money.
I can buy not giving Gausman 5 years, but why not give him more per year on fewer years. Hell, pay him $80M for two years, because it's all about paying for performance, and the Giants can easily afford that.
Fans are in fact rooting for the front office - including those who say they aren't in this thread - while thinking they are rooting for the players. The reasons used to refute my friend's assertion in fact prove it to be correct!
Joe Garagiola said it best (paraphrasing) - in life, you get one social security number and one baseball team. Mine is the Giants. Having said that, I am hardly a blind follower. I have disagreed with many decisions the FO has made over the years. In the recent past, I thought chasing Stanton and Harper for the money/term that were being discussed were terrible ideas and would have been disastrous in the long run. I am thankful they missed out on both guys.
Based on your rebuttable, it is evident that you have a narrative into which you are trying to squeeze the facts rather than taking the facts and building a narrative around them.
The fact is the you cannot buy your way to a championship no matter how much money you spend. Otherwise the Yankees would never lose.
I am quite satisfied that SF is “all-in” on winning. They have spent a fortune on a new training complex in Arizona, they have poured a ton of resources into talent development and they have largest coaching staff in the game. They have rebuilt the farm system into one of the best in the game. In terms of creating a foundation that will yield a competitive team on the field every season for the foreseeable future, they are at the adult table with the best franchises in the game. As a fan, that is all I can ask.
Um… Harper was MVP last year. And here’s the thing - they supposedly went after him. And Suzuki. And a bunch of others. Yet….
So here is my narrative:
Team1. Smart Front office. Great at grabbing diamonds in the rough Great farm system. Tremendous history. $290,000,000 payroll. Top 5 value wise in MLB. And willing to keep spending freely.
Team 2 : Smart Front office. Great at grabbing diamonds in the rough. Great farm system. Tremendous history. $145,000,000 payroll. Top 5 value wise in MLB. And not willing to spend.
Which team has the advantage?
PS: Going Sat and Sun. Unfortunately Giants hit hard by Covid. Yaz. Belt. Little. Leone.
Maybe covid will allow Slater to force himself into the lineup. My bet, Gonzalez peters out. Ruf hasn't started the season yet. And who are these other guys? Slater has found his mojo.
Slater hurt again. Porcelain…….
Slater is a valuable piece of the puzzle. I like him as a player. A lot. But he’s not an everyday player. He hammers lefties. Righties hammer him. And he has trouble staying healthy.
He’s athletic, can run, play three outfield slots. He is in his perfect role as largely a platoon guy.
RE: lex24 - Mick - 04-30-2022
(04-29-2022, 09:01 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:(04-29-2022, 07:09 PM)lex24 Wrote: Um… Harper was MVP last year. And here’s the thing - they supposedly went after him.
Maybe covid will allow Slater to force himself into the lineup. My bet, Gonzalez peters out. Ruf hasn't started the season yet. And who are these other guys? Slater has found his mojo.
Hope Slater forces himself into the lineup. Ruf had three hits tonight. Lefty Vosler went two for three with a splash hit home run. Gonzalez had a hit and a walk. Crawford had a hit and two walks.
As for Harper, Philadelphia offered $330 million for 13 years. The Giants offered $310 million for 12 years. And Harper thought that the Giants were done, that Posey, Crawford and Belt would be gone, and he didn't want to be part of a rebuild.
Bryce Harper explains why Giants made him wary in MLB free agency | RSN (nbcsports.com)
lex24 - lex24 - 05-01-2022
(04-30-2022, 10:01 PM)Mick Wrote:(04-29-2022, 09:01 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:(04-29-2022, 07:09 PM)lex24 Wrote: Um… Harper was MVP last year. And here’s the thing - they supposedly went after him.
Maybe covid will allow Slater to force himself into the lineup. My bet, Gonzalez peters out. Ruf hasn't started the season yet. And who are these other guys? Slater has found his mojo.
Hope Slater forces himself into the lineup. Ruf had three hits tonight. Lefty Vosler went two for three with a splash hit home run. Gonzalez had a hit and a walk. Crawford had a hit and two walks.
As for Harper, Philadelphia offered $330 million for 13 years. The Giants offered $310 million for 12 years. And Harper thought that the Giants were done, that Posey, Crawford and Belt would be gone, and he didn't want to be part of a rebuild.
Bryce Harper explains why Giants made him wary in MLB free agency | RSN (nbcsports.com)
Guessed wrong…..
RE: 2022 Giants thread - DC 86 - 05-02-2022
(04-29-2022, 02:44 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(04-29-2022, 01:03 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: So anyway, I heard Tristan Beck was promoted to Sacramento, is tearing it up, and could be making his Giants debut soon.
This means the Giants have Hjelle and Beck as possible rookie starters ready to debut this year.
Beck isn't even on the Giants 40-man roster and has pitched a total of 14 innings at AA.
Hjelle yes, since the Giants will surely need spot starters at some point.
Update: Beck was called up to Scaramento but his first start was a tough one: 4.1 IP, 7 ER, 9 hits, 2 BB, 3 K.
lex24 - lex24 - 05-02-2022
How bad is hitting this year? 10 teams have averages over .240. 10 have averages under .230. Ariz is hitting.185. I repeat One Eighty Five. A team hitting below the Mendoza line. And pitchers don’t hit anymore.
I know BA is not the metric of choice these days. But it tells us something. HR’s are, I’m relatively certain, well down.
Frankly, it was refreshing watching Washington score a bunch of runs over the weekend the old fashioned way. They strung hits together, used their speed, didn’t strike out a ton. What a concept. Wish it wasn’t against the Giants.
RE: lex24 - DC 86 - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 07:53 PM)lex24 Wrote: How bad is hitting this year? 10 teams have averages over .240. 10 have averages under .230. Ariz is hitting.185. I repeat One Eighty Five. A team hitting below the Mendoza line. And pitchers don’t hit anymore.
I know BA is not the metric of choice these days. But it tells us something. HR’s are, I’m relatively certain, well down.
As you surmised, it's not just batting average (.233 league-wide, which is the lowest ever), but slugging percentage (.370) is also historically low, resulting in the lowest league-wide OPS since the introduction of the DH. Runs scored (4.08 per team per game) is the lowest in 41 years. Home runs per team per game (0.91) are at the lowest point in eight years.
Meanwhile, statcast data tells us that batters are hitting the ball just as hard as ever (exit velocity is at its all time high) and squaring up (measured by barrel rate) just as much as before, which confirms that the issue is the ball and the fact that humidors are being used at all 30 parks.
Unfortunately, MLB seems to swing between extremes as it manipulates between a ludicrous rabbit ball (such as the one used in 2019) or the current iteration. Home runs are down 35% from 2019 (despite batters hitting the ball harder and at higher launch angles) which some may view as a good thing, but a league wide batting average of .233 isn't really fun either. Teams occasionally stringing together a bunch of hits and succeeding with small ball is great, but it's not happening very often this year.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 05-03-2022
A few summers ago I spent a couple of weeks working on a 60 Minutes piece about arm injuries and training. A day with Trevor Bauer, a few days with Tom House and a bit at the Texas Ranch. In Texas kids from junior high, high school and college were measured, put through exercise and had their mechanics dissected and digitally recorder. All to increase “velo.” In somewhat different ways House was doing the same at Dedeaux Field. In Spring training Bauer went through his exercise routine with Jeff Glor. Amazing.
Perhaps the ball is different as pitchers are saying in interviews but there are many more K’s and less contact. The emphasis on velo is part of the reason. I much prefer watching Logan Webb than I do watching the guys who just rear back.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - DC 86 - 05-03-2022
(05-03-2022, 07:38 AM)Phogge Wrote: Perhaps the ball is different as pitchers are saying in interviews but there are many more K’s and less contact. The emphasis on velo is part of the reason. I much prefer watching Logan Webb than I do watching the guys who just rear back.
Strikeouts are actually down by 2% (and contact is up) this year, and independent studies have measured the effects of the ball and the humidor this year.
I agree that it's more fun to watch pitchers pitch instead of a parade of hard throwers out of the bullpen, but the dramatically reduced offense this year isn't due to a sudden increase in pitching velocity. Batters are hitting the ball just as hard off the bat, and more often; it's just not going as far or maintaining its exit velocity.
RE: lex24 - lex24 - 05-03-2022
(05-02-2022, 08:18 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(05-02-2022, 07:53 PM)lex24 Wrote: How bad is hitting this year? 10 teams have averages over .240. 10 have averages under .230. Ariz is hitting.185. I repeat One Eighty Five. A team hitting below the Mendoza line. And pitchers don’t hit anymore.
I know BA is not the metric of choice these days. But it tells us something. HR’s are, I’m relatively certain, well down.
As you surmised, it's not just batting average (.233 league-wide, which is the lowest ever), but slugging percentage (.370) is also historically low, resulting in the lowest league-wide OPS since the introduction of the DH. Runs scored (4.08 per team per game) is the lowest in 41 years. Home runs per team per game (0.91) are at the lowest point in eight years.
Meanwhile, statcast data tells us that batters are hitting the ball just as hard as ever (exit velocity is at its all time high) and squaring up (measured by barrel rate) just as much as before, which confirms that the issue is the ball and the fact that humidors are being used at all 30 parks.
Unfortunately, MLB seems to swing between extremes as it manipulates between a ludicrous rabbit ball (such as the one used in 2019) or the current iteration. Home runs are down 35% from 2019 (despite batters hitting the ball harder and at higher launch angles) which some may view as a good thing, but a league wide batting average of .233 isn't really fun either. Teams occasionally stringing together a bunch of hits and succeeding with small ball is great, but it's not happening very often this year.
Teams aren’t built to play small ball and string hits. Swings aren’t geared for that. MLB is going to have to figure this out. It’s not just the ball and/or humidor. It’s shifts, 6 pitchers a night, Three True Outcomes. Is there such a thing as a contact hitter any.more?
RE: lex24 - DC 86 - 05-03-2022
(05-03-2022, 08:12 AM)lex24 Wrote: Teams aren’t built to play small ball and string hits. Swings aren’t geared for that. MLB is going to have to figure this out. It’s not just the ball and/or humidor. It’s shifts, 6 pitchers a night, Three True Outcomes. Is there such a thing as a contact hitter any.more?
As a general trend (over the last decade or two) it's all those things, but the extreme dropoff from last season compared to the first month of this season (and even more extreme, comparing 2019 to 2022) is because of the ball. The other things (shifts, reliever use, pitching velocity, hitter approach) weren't suddenly introduced this month.
Last season league-wide hitting was 244/317/411 (.728 ops), as of this morning this season it's 232/306/368 (.675 ops). 43 point drop in slugging percentage.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 05-03-2022
How could I disagree with DC? He has the stats which I don't give a fig about.
Didn't. Just mentioned the shift over the years to teaching and training for velocity rather than how to pitch. Same with other factors. How long was Dubon in the minors and why did he come up not knowing how to run the bases?
Big swings and big speed wows the scouts and now small ball is fading into the sunset. And we have today's game of walks, K's and homers. Plus they will change the ball again, count on it.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - DC 86 - 05-03-2022
(05-03-2022, 08:29 AM)Phogge Wrote: How could I disagree with DC? He has the stats which I don't give a fig about.
Didn't. Just mentioned the shift over the years to teaching and training for velocity rather than how to pitch. Same with other factors. How long was Dubon in the minors and why did he come up not knowing how to run the bases?
Big swings and big speed wows the scouts and now small ball is fading into the sunset. And we have today's game of walks, K's and homers. Plus they will change the ball again, count on it.
In the broadest sense, advances in pitching are outpacing advances in hitting. It's not just velocity. It's tunneling, increasing spin rate, using data to optimize pitch sequencing, etc. Velocity increases are the most obvious but the biggest advances in the last decade are in other aspects of pitching.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 05-03-2022
Bottom line for me folks: Game is not as interesting as it once was. The wrong stats rule. Even John Miller has changed. I guess the youth wants stats like Exit Velocity thrown at them. Kids look at screens and if you drive around the Sunset on a warm weekend day nobody plays outside anymore. What a fukking shame.
So DC, guru of spin rates, enjoy.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - BobK - 05-03-2022
I can ignore the new stats if I want and I do. Baseball is baseball. Love the game
I never played on the street in SF. Lose the ball and in 20 seconds it’s 200 yards away on ocean avenue. Very steep hill and street
RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 05-03-2022
(05-03-2022, 08:49 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(05-03-2022, 08:29 AM)Phogge Wrote: How could I disagree with DC? He has the stats which I don't give a fig about.
Didn't. Just mentioned the shift over the years to teaching and training for velocity rather than how to pitch. Same with other factors. How long was Dubon in the minors and why did he come up not knowing how to run the bases?
Big swings and big speed wows the scouts and now small ball is fading into the sunset. And we have today's game of walks, K's and homers. Plus they will change the ball again, count on it.
In the broadest sense, advances in pitching are outpacing advances in hitting. It's not just velocity. It's tunneling, increasing spin rate, using data to optimize pitch sequencing, etc. Velocity increases are the most obvious but the biggest advances in the last decade are in other aspects of pitching.
It’s not just advances in pitching. It’s changed use. Carlos Rodon is a stud. He’s gone 7 once. 5 twice. 6 once. As with so many of todays pitchers he’s all max all the time. When starters actually considered getting deep into games, they’d pace themselves a bit. Get some early outs. Save some of their stuff for later innings. And, of course, as they hoped to get through an order 3 1/2 to 4 times, they’d mix up their pitches more.
Now, starters come out. Max effort from pitch one. Cause they are only going 5 or 6 at the most.
Twice through the order is all that is expected on the bottom end guys. Cause the metrics show that third time through they are vulnerable. So they just go out there and go max effort with the two pitches that the coaching staff has decided are the ones that work for them knowing full well they will get them out first sign of trouble third time through.
Then the parade starts. Of guys that come out of the pen throwing gas, or with one Super plus pitch. Pitch to their three. Then another guy, different release point, stuff etc.
Question becomes, how to counter? Few things I’d like to see: Ban all use of technology during games. Ban shifts. Limit to 4 pitchers per side per game. If go extras add 1 per inning. Increase rosters to 28 permanently to save arms.
No chance these get implemented (except maybe shift being banned) especially the limit on number of pitchers.
Maybe it’s time to lower mound again.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 05-03-2022
We were on a mesa on Moraga. Flat streets, plenty of hiding places for kick the can. Street football sometimes 2 on 2, count "one, two three one thousands" and then rush the passer. Got rough when 6 on 6 on asphalt. Tackle football down the street at Sunset playground. Big game on Thanksgiving. Much blood but not many fights. At the Polo Fields we could kick extra points. Battled kids from the Richmond, then down to Playland and the It's It counter. Many fights in HS at the beach down from Balboa St. Drinking, making out, bloddy noses. Unbelievable fun.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - DC 86 - 05-03-2022
(05-03-2022, 09:07 AM)Phogge Wrote: Bottom line for me folks: Game is not as interesting as it once was. The wrong stats rule. Even John Miller has changed. I guess the youth wants stats like Exit Velocity thrown at them. Kids look at screens and if you drive around the Sunset on a warm weekend day nobody plays outside anymore. What a fukking shame.
So DC, guru of spin rates, enjoy.
I don't think that's really fair because I haven't expressed my own preferences very much; there are things I like and dislike about the game now, just as there are things I liked and disliked more abut the game that I grew up playing and watching. Then again, nostalgia often makes one remember all the good parts while forgetting about the bad parts. I'm really just trying to explain what is happening, e.g. that increased velocity is just a small part of how advances in pitching and biometrics over the last decade have impacted that side of the game. It's overly simplistic to say that pitchers are just throwing harder, the problem (if there is one) is that starting pitchers in particular are both throwing harder and pitching smarter than ever before.
I agree about the last part. I played hours of sports every single day as a kid and it can't be healthy for so many kids to be indoors so much now. But that has zero to do with the emergence of measuring exit velocity or the decline of bunting. In particular regarding baseball it has nothing to do with the sport itself, but rather how the economics of the industry have changed at the youth level.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Mick - 05-03-2022
(05-03-2022, 09:39 AM)BobK Wrote: I can ignore the new stats if I want and I do. Baseball is baseball. Love the game
I never played on the street in SF. Lose the ball and in 20 seconds it’s 200 yards away on ocean avenue. Very steep hill and street
Never played in the street in SF. Played across the street at the school. Three flies up. Pickle. Tackle the guy with the football, although we called it something else. Only way we'd lose a ball was to hit it in Old Lady Isabel's back yard. She hated kids. Wouldn't answer the door if you knocked, but if you went in her backyard, she'd sic her Doberman on you.
Ah, good times...
RE: 2022 Giants thread - BobK - 05-03-2022
Went to a school Aptos jr high in the city to play. Close by. Every day possible summer and weekends
Then Sacramento school less than half a block every day until HS then HS sports
Then Sunnyvale but HS now so HS sports every day.
Now it’s video games while now being for 30 years
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 05-03-2022
All the streets near Aptos are narrow except for Ocean and Monterrey and street cars were on Ocean and people drove fast on Monterrey. We lived on a grid where two flat streets crossed. Only a few cars parked during the work week. We played stair baseball, a version of stickball, touch football. Used the Flexi Flyer down the near hills and since the Sunset was riddled with brobdingnagian unbuilt upon lots we were able to play war in the sand dunes with actual surplus M1's, cartridge belts, steel helmets and rubber knives. The local girls often were "nurses." Sometimes you'd fight with another kid and then go out for a milkshake with him. Sorry I never bought you a milkshake Bobbbbb after I knocked you down in the bleachers at Seals Stadium. I owe you one.