WBB 2023-2024 Season - Printable Version
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RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - Maple Leaf - 06-11-2023
(06-11-2023, 09:33 AM)BosCard Wrote:(06-11-2023, 08:40 AM)bl82 Wrote: As for the fifth starter, Brooke will probably be forced into our trontcourt rotation due to the lack of other alternatives, which means Elena is likely our fifth starter. I’m guessing we will also use Brooke on the perimeter, but we are so thin up front that we need her to flex big every game. We haven’t discussed it here yet, but I believe Kiki has been experiencing more foul trouble even than Cam did as a fresh, so oven in just a relief role, Brooke could easily log 25 minutes per game if we only have three bigs. Assuming Cam gets 30 minutes, Kiki and Brooke could end up splitting 50 minutes roughly equally on the interior.
OTOH, Elena has the potential to be more of a do everything type of player, slashing to the basket, draining threes, rebounding, being disruptive on defense, etc. Let’s hope more time on the court translates into more confidence, as she clearly has the tools.
I agree. I think Demetre will be the first “big” off the bench and will spend most of her playing time at the 4. She doesn’t have great lateral quickness and so is a better PF defender vs wing defender. Plus she is a very good post entry passer and good 3-point shooter. Defenders will have to defend her to the 3-point line which should create a lot of 1-1 opportunities for Brink and Iriafen in the post.
Demetre played very good defense in the paint in last years South Carolina game. And South Carolina had a large number bigs in that game.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - Card10Fan - 06-11-2023
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/college/article/stanford-s-tara-vanderveer-adapting-ncaa-s-new-18146618.php
Here are some Vanderveer quotes for those who don't subscribe.
“Similar to the Warriors, we didn’t have great chemistry, we didn’t have what we had in 2021 or last year,” she said.
“We didn’t have the unselfishness we had in past,” VanDerveer said. “There were too many things that got too many people’s attention. All the NIL stuff. The team dynamic changed so quickly and so drastically.”
VanDerveer started to address the issues as soon as the season ended. She brought in a professor from the Stanford business school to hold a seminar on leadership. She has bought books for the team, giving them some summer reading. She’s examining her recruiting tactics, realizing she needs to recruit more variety, so she doesn’t have key players competing for the same minutes at the same position.
“I take it one year at a time,” VanDerveer said. “Every morning I get up, I’m excited. And I’m excited about this year. But there’s something about the innocence of the sport that’s gone. “It’s a very challenging time. On every front.”
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - mbdude - 06-12-2023
when Tara talks about recruiting more variety does that mean someone like Betts shouldn't have been recruited? Aren't you supposed to recruit the best available
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - BobK - 06-12-2023
Chemistry is so important in team sports. Me first attitude always hurts
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - chimera - 06-12-2023
I think to most of us who observed the team closely last season, none of what she said is a surprise. It was pretty clear the team was less than the sum of its parts and that too often the intensity was not there. I hate to say entitled and distracted, but that's how it felt to me as a long time fan. That doesn't make the players bad people. They are young and NIL seems to me to be a big time suck what with "building brands" and doing the social media thing. It does mean the team environment may not be as cohesive.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - BosCard - 06-12-2023
(06-12-2023, 08:52 AM)chimera Wrote: I think to most of us who observed the team closely last season, none of what she said is a surprise. It was pretty clear the team was less than the sum of its parts and that too often the intensity was not there. I hate to say entitled and distracted, but that's how it felt to me as a long time fan. That doesn't make the players bad people. They are young and NIL seems to me to be a big time suck what with "building brands" and doing the social media thing. It does mean the team environment may not be as cohesive.
I think these things matter BUT LSU won it all and Angel Reese is perhaps more involved in social media / NIL than any other women’s player.
We had trouble scoring against good defenses. That was our primary problem last year. Hopefully new players, improved players, better shooting, better spacing will all help with that this year.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - stopandpop - 06-12-2023
(06-12-2023, 09:40 AM)BosCard Wrote:(06-12-2023, 08:52 AM)chimera Wrote: I think to most of us who observed the team closely last season, none of what she said is a surprise. It was pretty clear the team was less than the sum of its parts and that too often the intensity was not there. I hate to say entitled and distracted, but that's how it felt to me as a long time fan. That doesn't make the players bad people. They are young and NIL seems to me to be a big time suck what with "building brands" and doing the social media thing. It does mean the team environment may not be as cohesive.
I think these things matter BUT LSU won it all and Angel Reese is perhaps more involved in social media / NIL than any other women’s player.
We had trouble scoring against good defenses. That was our primary problem last year. Hopefully new players, improved players, better shooting, better spacing will all help with that this year.
Yes, we had trouble scoring against good defenses because our offensive sets were extremely predictable and Tara did not seem to show much inclination to mix up the offense. The talent was certainly there. It remains so baffling to me that (with 2 All-Americans), we did not dominate. I remain concerned that going into 2023-2024 our offense may not change. Hope to be proven wrong.
Can we dig deeper about the lack of chemistry last season? I have my own thoughts, but would be curious to hear from others; what were some of the signs you observed that indicated there was a chemistry problem? Thanks.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - jonnyss - 06-12-2023
(06-12-2023, 08:01 AM)mbdude Wrote: when Tara talks about recruiting more variety does that mean someone like Betts shouldn't have been recruited? Aren't you supposed to recruit the best available
well, last year year certainly calls that adage into question.
shaw likely leaned too far into helping stars avoiding logjams. women's bb may have been too complacent with logjams for stars.
betts and family seem to imply we didn't get their buy-in by warning them, "we really want you, but please understand you likely won't play much freshman year. sophomore year you can shine. if you're comfortable waiting, we'd love to have you. if you're not comfortable waiting, you should go elsewhere. we'll be disappointed, but we'll understand and support your decision."
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - MV72018 - 06-12-2023
(06-12-2023, 01:21 PM)stopandpop Wrote:(06-12-2023, 09:40 AM)BosCard Wrote:(06-12-2023, 08:52 AM)chimera Wrote: I think to most of us who observed the team closely last season, none of what she said is a surprise. It was pretty clear the team was less than the sum of its parts and that too often the intensity was not there. I hate to say entitled and distracted, but that's how it felt to me as a long time fan. That doesn't make the players bad people. They are young and NIL seems to me to be a big time suck what with "building brands" and doing the social media thing. It does mean the team environment may not be as cohesive.
I think these things matter BUT LSU won it all and Angel Reese is perhaps more involved in social media / NIL than any other women’s player.
We had trouble scoring against good defenses. That was our primary problem last year. Hopefully new players, improved players, better shooting, better spacing will all help with that this year.
Yes, we had trouble scoring against good defenses because our offensive sets were extremely predictable and Tara did not seem to show much inclination to mix up the offense. The talent was certainly there. It remains so baffling to me that (with 2 All-Americans), we did not dominate. I remain concerned that going into 2023-2024 our offense may not change. Hope to be proven wrong.
Can we dig deeper about the lack of chemistry last season? I have my own thoughts, but would be curious to hear from others; what were some of the signs you observed that indicated there was a chemistry problem? Thanks.
We had trouble scoring against non-marshmallow opponents because......
1. our O was too predictable, agreed.
2. no accurate outside shooters who could take it to the hoop and dish or finish
3. sub-par performance by one star (except on rebounding), partly because of the PG situation
4. slow footspeed, on both O and D; when pressed intensely by a quick opponent's D, we had serious trouble getting good shots and scoring tanked
5. lack of cohesiveness by the ever-changing starting 5
6. too much ill-advised fouling
7. too much reliance on three-point shots by a team that with few exceptions was not a good three-point shooting team
8. assist to TO ratio of only 1.2 for the season
9. lousy in-bounds and end-of-game plays
10. failure to make shrewd in-game adjustments
etc.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - qwerty49 - 06-12-2023
(06-12-2023, 03:33 PM)MV72018 Wrote:(06-12-2023, 01:21 PM)stopandpop Wrote:(06-12-2023, 09:40 AM)BosCard Wrote:(06-12-2023, 08:52 AM)chimera Wrote: I think to most of us who observed the team closely last season, none of what she said is a surprise. It was pretty clear the team was less than the sum of its parts and that too often the intensity was not there. I hate to say entitled and distracted, but that's how it felt to me as a long time fan. That doesn't make the players bad people. They are young and NIL seems to me to be a big time suck what with "building brands" and doing the social media thing. It does mean the team environment may not be as cohesive.
I think these things matter BUT LSU won it all and Angel Reese is perhaps more involved in social media / NIL than any other women’s player.
We had trouble scoring against good defenses. That was our primary problem last year. Hopefully new players, improved players, better shooting, better spacing will all help with that this year.
Yes, we had trouble scoring against good defenses because our offensive sets were extremely predictable and Tara did not seem to show much inclination to mix up the offense. The talent was certainly there. It remains so baffling to me that (with 2 All-Americans), we did not dominate. I remain concerned that going into 2023-2024 our offense may not change. Hope to be proven wrong.
Can we dig deeper about the lack of chemistry last season? I have my own thoughts, but would be curious to hear from others; what were some of the signs you observed that indicated there was a chemistry problem? Thanks.
We had trouble scoring because
1. our O was too predictable, agreed.
2. no accurate outside shooters who could take it to the hoop and dish or finish
3. sub-par performance by one star (except on rebounding), partly because of the PG situation
4. slow footspeed, especially noticeable on D
5. lack of cohesiveness by the ever-changing starting 5
6. too much ill-advised fouling
7. too much reliance on three-point shots by a team that with few exceptions was not a good three-point shooting team
8. assist to TO ratio of only 1.2 for the season
9. lousy in-bounds and end-of-game plays
10. failure to make shrewd in-game adjustments
etc.
Our offensive strength appeared to be in transition, but far too often we settled into an extremely predictable and mediocre half court game that quickly degenerated into 4 on 4 once Jump was pinned into the corner.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - Card10Fan - 06-12-2023
(06-12-2023, 08:04 AM)BobK Wrote: Chemistry is so important in team sports. Me first attitude always hurts
How do most read this Vanderveer quote, "You can't assume that because players are seniors, that they're leaders."
Is that a knock on Haley Jones, Hannah Jump, or Prechtel's lack of leadership? Tara in the past said Fran was a great leader and teammate but none of the other seniors that I can remember.
My perspective. The chemistry wasn't there and I thought the team looked cliquey the latter part of the season. It was a totally different vibe than earlier in the year. I wish Tara took more ownership and said things like, I need to find better ways to help our offense get going, find chemistry on the court, and put players in positions to be successful. It kinda feels like she's blaming the players for why it all went awry but ultimately, it's her job to motivate them and develop them as leaders and prevent or minimize team drama if necessary. Yes, coaching is hard especially today with NIL and collectives, but figure out how to adapt and mentor them and help them play unselfish basketball. It doesn't give me great confidence for the future. Tara is a winner and I think we have great potential for this year but it she sounds like she's doubling down even more versus trying to make some meaningful changes.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - 81alum - 06-12-2023
I am pleased that Tara took the time, and the Chronicle took the initiative, to analyze what went wrong last year. Keeping in mind that Tara NEVER talks about X's and O's to the press--and is obsessive about not giving insight into strategy, tactics, or health--I found her comments persuasive and confirmatory with what I saw. She is willing to talk about team chemistry, and clearly that was defective last year. The reasons for why are--as Tara says--complex. Tara knows she is responsible and has taken some initiatives to address the issue. Whether she (or anyone) can succeed in restoring team cohesion in the era of "market-yourself-and-make-bucks" remains to be seen.
As for comparisons with other players and other teams--there is no other team remotely like Stanford. There is no other contending team with the academic pressures in both recruiting and during the fours years that Stanford has. How NIL and the revolving door of transfers interface with an intense commitment to academics on top of the intense commitment to basketball has to be worked out as a unique Stanford solution. I doubt we are there yet, if there ever can be a solution for us. But Mississippi, LSU, even UCLA are nothing like Stanford, and their solutions will be different from our solutions. Perhaps the deck from now on is just going to be stacked against us.
As for everything else, such as our inability to score against tough defenses, she has no comment, and never has had a comment about similar issues. Unrealistic to expect that kind of insight from her after 40 years of playing it close to the vest. Not that I wouldn't love to hear that kind of basketball detail from her.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - Cooter - 06-12-2023
Feels like NIL has become quite the scapegoat. Chemistry and leadership challenges existed long before NIL - even at Stanford.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - jk1926 - 06-12-2023
New topic. The FIBA Women's Eurobasket 2023 begins Thursday June 15 and runs through Sunday June 25th in Israel and Slovenia. 16 teams have qualified for the tournament. 2024 Olympic host France and the other top five placing teams in the tournament will gain entry into the FIBA Olympic qualfying tournament in February 2024.
Stanford team member Elena Bosgana earned a spot on the 12 member Greek team: Women's Eurobasket 2023 Rosters
Greece belongs to Group A along with Latvia, Montenegro and Spain. Round robin group play begins June 15 with Greece opening against Montenegro at 2:15AM PDT. Greece plays Latvia Fri June 16 at 8:15AM PDT and finishes group play against Spain Sunday, June 18 at 10:45 AM.
You can get more information about the tournament at the FIBA Women's Eurobasket 2023 home page including scores, box scores, stats, video highlights and a link to a live streaming site via "Courtside 1891": Women's Eurobasket 2023 Home Page
If you peruse the rosters you will see some familiar names on various teams: Kristine Anigwe, Temi Fagbenle, Kiki Herbert-Harrigan, Holly Winterburn, Julie Allemand, Emma Meesseman, Lorela Cubaj, Aleksa Gulbe, Emily Bessoir, Lina Sontag, Maite Cazorla, Teaira McCowan.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - MV72018 - 06-13-2023
(06-12-2023, 05:29 PM)81alum Wrote: I am pleased that Tara took the time, and the Chronicle took the initiative, to analyze what went wrong last year. Keeping in mind that Tara NEVER talks about X's and O's to the press--and is obsessive about not giving insight into strategy, tactics, or health--I found her comments persuasive and confirmatory with what I saw. She is willing to talk about team chemistry, and clearly that was defective last year. The reasons for why are--as Tara says--complex. Tara knows she is responsible and has taken some initiatives to address the issue. Whether she (or anyone) can succeed in restoring team cohesion in the era of "market-yourself-and-make-bucks" remains to be seen.
As for comparisons with other players and other teams--there is no other team remotely like Stanford. There is no other contending team with the academic pressures in both recruiting and during the fours years that Stanford has. How NIL and the revolving door of transfers interface with an intense commitment to academics on top of the intense commitment to basketball has to be worked out as a unique Stanford solution. I doubt we are there yet, if there ever can be a solution for us. But Mississippi, LSU, even UCLA are nothing like Stanford, and their solutions will be different from our solutions. Perhaps the deck from now on is just going to be stacked against us.
As for everything else, such as our inability to score against tough defenses, she has no comment, and never has had a comment about similar issues. Unrealistic to expect that kind of insight from her after 40 years of playing it close to the vest. Not that I wouldn't love to hear that kind of basketball detail from her.
Color me dubious about how efficacious one of the steps she reportedly took -- buying a book for team members to read -- will prove to be As for playing it close to the vest, I'm not impressed. That seems to me like an excuse for laziness and unwillingness to identify clearly what the problems were. From where I sit 81alum, an excellent basketball analyst, is too generous in giving Tara free passes for her unproductive habits. 81alum simply says that it was "unrealistic to expect" Tara to change her uncommunicativeness about the causes of the team's end-of-season collapse. Why not say candidly that it is "unreasonable not to change" that propensity when it has proven unfruitful? One last thing, I didn't find much specificity in the Chronicle article. Full of vague and elusive claims.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - old spanish trail - 06-13-2023
(06-13-2023, 10:52 AM)MV72018 Wrote:(06-12-2023, 05:29 PM)81alum Wrote: I am pleased that Tara took the time, and the Chronicle took the initiative, to analyze what went wrong last year. Keeping in mind that Tara NEVER talks about X's and O's to the press--and is obsessive about not giving insight into strategy, tactics, or health--I found her comments persuasive and confirmatory with what I saw. She is willing to talk about team chemistry, and clearly that was defective last year. The reasons for why are--as Tara says--complex. Tara knows she is responsible and has taken some initiatives to address the issue. Whether she (or anyone) can succeed in restoring team cohesion in the era of "market-yourself-and-make-bucks" remains to be seen.
As for comparisons with other players and other teams--there is no other team remotely like Stanford. There is no other contending team with the academic pressures in both recruiting and during the fours years that Stanford has. How NIL and the revolving door of transfers interface with an intense commitment to academics on top of the intense commitment to basketball has to be worked out as a unique Stanford solution. I doubt we are there yet, if there ever can be a solution for us. But Mississippi, LSU, even UCLA are nothing like Stanford, and their solutions will be different from our solutions. Perhaps the deck from now on is just going to be stacked against us.
As for everything else, such as our inability to score against tough defenses, she has no comment, and never has had a comment about similar issues. Unrealistic to expect that kind of insight from her after 40 years of playing it close to the vest. Not that I wouldn't love to hear that kind of basketball detail from her.
Color me dubious about how efficacious one of the steps she reportedly took -- buying a book for team members to read -- will prove to be As for playing it close to the vest, I'm not impressed. That seems to me like an excuse for laziness and unwillingness to identify clearly what the problems were. From where I sit 81alum, an excellent basketball analyst, is too generous in giving Tara free passes for her unproductive habits. 81alum simply says that it was "unrealistic to expect" Tara to change her uncommunicativeness about the causes of the team's end-of-season collapse. Why not say candidly that it is "unreasonable not to change" that propensity when it has proven unfruitful? One last thing, I didn't find much specificity in the Chronicle article. Full of vague and elusive claims.
Hmmm, I thought her comments were much too specific re senior leadership and NIL, etc. It will be used against her during recruiting. That's one of the reasons she usually avoids this kind of comment, and we shouldn't expect her to make such comments. "That being said", as they say in transfer posts, her comments were interesting.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - jonnyss - 06-13-2023
(06-12-2023, 05:14 PM)Card10Fan Wrote:(06-12-2023, 08:04 AM)BobK Wrote: Chemistry is so important in team sports. Me first attitude always hurts
How do most read this Vanderveer quote, "You can't assume that because players are seniors, that they're leaders."
Is that a knock on Haley Jones, Hannah Jump, or Prechtel's lack of leadership? Tara in the past said Fran was a great leader and teammate but none of the other seniors that I can remember.
My perspective. The chemistry wasn't there and I thought the team looked cliquey the latter part of the season. It was a totally different vibe than earlier in the year. I wish Tara took more ownership and said things like, I need to find better ways to help our offense get going, find chemistry on the court, and put players in positions to be successful. It kinda feels like she's blaming the players for why it all went awry but ultimately, it's her job to motivate them and develop them as leaders and prevent or minimize team drama if necessary. Yes, coaching is hard especially today with NIL and collectives, but figure out how to adapt and mentor them and help them play unselfish basketball. It doesn't give me great confidence for the future. Tara is a winner and I think we have great potential for this year but it she sounds like she's doubling down even more versus trying to make some meaningful changes.
if tara is blaming haley, that seems really unfair. tara asked haley to play out of position, which seemed to hurt her effectiveness - and her wnba draft rank. haley managed to smile through the season (at least on the court) anyway. then tara blames haley? wow!
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - ljw63 - 06-13-2023
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As I was thinking about last season's unsatisfactory ending and the implications for next year, it occurred to me to compare Hannah Jump to Elena Bosgana. In a number of games Hannah seemed to disappear. Why not use Elena more in those situations?
It turns out that Hannah played over 79% of the 1400 minutes available. Elena played just under 18% of the minutes available. To equate the stats you have to multiply all of Elena's by 4.4. The results are:
Hannah Bosgana
Pts/Game 11.2 17.2
Rebounds/Game 1.9 7.5
Assist/Game 1.3 2.7
TOs/Game 0.7 1.3
Steals/Game 0.9 1.8
Blocks/Game 0.1 0.4
Assists/TOs 1.9 2.0
FG% 46% 45%
3 Pt % 44% 31%
FT % 82% 75%
There are many arguments that can be made why this is not a fair comparison. Would Elena really have multiplied her statistics by 4.4 if she had played as many minutes? However, the case can also be made that if Elena had the confidence of the coach to play many more minutes her confidence might have increased as well as her ability to play better with her teammates. Whatever your conclusion I think it is safe to say Elena should have played more and Hannah a little less although we need them both this year. Clearly, Elena is the better rebounder and seems to be a better defender.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - warren65 - 06-13-2023
Interesting points about Bosgana. She is potentially the more versatile player. Her stats, however, were often in garbage time. Jump was doing her thing in prime time. Even when not scoring, she was occupying a prime defender.
Brooke Demete was the player with the most minutes off the bench. I think Demetre and Bosgana should both get lots of minutes and an opportunity to shine. Both could play a variety of positions, including, if needed, at the 4. Not much depth there.
I think the upcoming team could have great chemistry. Looking forward to seeing what the freshmen can offer.
Quote:It turns out that Hannah played over 79% of the 1400 minutes available. Elena played just under 18% of the minutes available. To equate the stats you have to multiply all of Elena's by 4.4. The results are:
Hannah Bosgana
Pts/Game 11.2 17.2
Rebounds/Game 1.9 7.5
Assist/Game 1.3 2.7
TOs/Game 0.7 1.3
Steals/Game 0.9 1.8
Blocks/Game 0.1 0.4
Assists/TOs 1.9 2.0
FG% 46% 45%
3 Pt % 44% 31%
FT % 82% 75%
There are many arguments that can be made why this is not a fair comparison. Would Elena really have multiplied her statistics by 4.4 if she had played as many minutes? However, the case can also be made that if Elena had the confidence of the coach to play many more minutes her confidence might have increased as well as her ability to play better with her teammates. Whatever your conclusion I think it is safe to say Elena should have played more and Hannah a little less although we need them both this year. Clearly, Elena is the better rebounder and seems to be a better defender.
RE: WBB 2023-2024 Season - old spanish trail - 06-13-2023
(06-13-2023, 05:27 PM)jonnyss Wrote:(06-12-2023, 05:14 PM)Card10Fan Wrote:(06-12-2023, 08:04 AM)BobK Wrote: Chemistry is so important in team sports. Me first attitude always hurts
How do most read this Vanderveer quote, "You can't assume that because players are seniors, that they're leaders."
Is that a knock on Haley Jones, Hannah Jump, or Prechtel's lack of leadership? Tara in the past said Fran was a great leader and teammate but none of the other seniors that I can remember.
My perspective. The chemistry wasn't there and I thought the team looked cliquey the latter part of the season. It was a totally different vibe than earlier in the year. I wish Tara took more ownership and said things like, I need to find better ways to help our offense get going, find chemistry on the court, and put players in positions to be successful. It kinda feels like she's blaming the players for why it all went awry but ultimately, it's her job to motivate them and develop them as leaders and prevent or minimize team drama if necessary. Yes, coaching is hard especially today with NIL and collectives, but figure out how to adapt and mentor them and help them play unselfish basketball. It doesn't give me great confidence for the future. Tara is a winner and I think we have great potential for this year but it she sounds like she's doubling down even more versus trying to make some meaningful changes.
if tara is blaming haley, that seems really unfair. tara asked haley to play out of position, which seemed to hurt her effectiveness - and her wnba draft rank. haley managed to smile through the season (at least on the court) anyway. then tara blames haley? wow!
I agree, Johnny.