All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today

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Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - BostonCard - 12-14-2015

FWAA All America team

http://espn.go.com/blog/pac12/post/_/id/96283/fwaa-announces-all-american-team

Garnett at OL
McCaffrey at kick returner

BC

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Langdude - 12-14-2015

Christian not on first (3 RB) or second (2 RB) team for FWAA at RB. That means they see him as, at best, the sixth best RB in the country.

I am guessing that many of the voters, when they imagine a RB, think simply in terms of being handed the ball and not many of the other things that RB can do, e.g., block, catch, and even throw.

-m.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - washingtonismoney - 12-14-2015

(12-14-2015, 07:42 PM)Langdude link Wrote:Christian not on first (3 RB) or second (2 RB) team for FWAA at RB. That means they see him as, at best, the sixth best RB in the country.

I am guessing that many of the voters, when they imagine a RB, think simply in terms of being handed the ball and not many of the other things that RB can do, e.g., block, catch, and even throw.

-m.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Langdude - 12-14-2015

Yeah, that's a great point. Even if they did only consider a RB based on being handed the ball, Christian still has the credentials. So the numbers don't matter. What does matter, then? What are they basing their vote on?

-m.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Rally - 12-14-2015

(12-14-2015, 09:59 PM)Langdude link Wrote:Yeah, that's a great point. Even if they did only consider a RB based on being handed the ball, Christian still has the credentials. So the numbers don't matter. What does matter, then? What are they basing their vote on?

-m.

Rich. -1
White -1
Smart -1
West Coast -1

Did I leave anything out?

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - CornFed - 12-14-2015

(12-14-2015, 09:15 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:[quote author=Langdude link=topic=14005.msg148283#msg148283 date=1450147344]
Christian not on first (3 RB) or second (2 RB) team for FWAA at RB. That means they see him as, at best, the sixth best RB in the country.

I am guessing that many of the voters, when they imagine a RB, think simply in terms of being handed the ball and not many of the other things that RB can do, e.g., block, catch, and even throw.

-m.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Rally - 12-14-2015

(12-14-2015, 10:47 PM)CornFed link Wrote:[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=14005.msg148300#msg148300 date=1450152937]
[quote author=Langdude link=topic=14005.msg148283#msg148283 date=1450147344]
Christian not on first (3 RB) or second (2 RB) team for FWAA at RB. That means they see him as, at best, the sixth best RB in the country.

I am guessing that many of the voters, when they imagine a RB, think simply in terms of being handed the ball and not many of the other things that RB can do, e.g., block, catch, and even throw.

-m.

Yeah, Christian and his mere 1847 yards rushing.

Voters, at all times and at all places, aren't smart. The players who win the awards give them value, not the other way around. How many Oscars did Pulp Fiction win?
[/quote]

And John Wayne got an Oscar for "True Grit" over Dustin Hoffman in "Midnight Cowboy".
[/quote]

Well, yeah, Dustin got screwed but come on, man, we're talking about Duke?Â My here ever since Fighting Seabees!Â Plus, his personal boat was a PT Boat.Â Hard to beat.Â Dude.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - CornFed - 12-14-2015

(12-14-2015, 10:52 PM)ferrari link Wrote:[quote author=CornFed link=topic=14005.msg148325#msg148325 date=1450158448]
[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=14005.msg148300#msg148300 date=1450152937]
[quote author=Langdude link=topic=14005.msg148283#msg148283 date=1450147344]
Christian not on first (3 RB) or second (2 RB) team for FWAA at RB. That means they see him as, at best, the sixth best RB in the country.

I am guessing that many of the voters, when they imagine a RB, think simply in terms of being handed the ball and not many of the other things that RB can do, e.g., block, catch, and even throw.

-m.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - BostonCard - 12-15-2015

Are we forgiving him the fact that he is a USC grad?

BC

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Hulk01 - 12-15-2015

It's ridiculous.

These voters cannot understand football.Â If they did, they would realize both the unique pressure that Mac causes for a defense, and the remarkable flexibility he gives to Stanford's offense.

His threat alone, standing in the huddle, gives him enormous value.Â Will he set in the slot?Â Wide?Â Forward in the inside zone rad?Â Wildcat?Â The defense immediately has to recognize the formation and the options Stanford might run from it; this alone ensures we get a befuddled defense several times a game, where a defender, as a vivid example, doesn't know to account for Mac slipping out the backfield, finding a hole in the zone, and scoring on a flip for Hogan without being touched--e.g., the clinching score against SC.

Henry, and backs lack him, don't create this pressure at all.Â The only pressure he creates is the need to move a safety up close, and for the defensive backs covering wide to come hard to the line of scrimmage in support.Â But Mac's ability to find a seam and then a cut in the second level creates similar pressure.

He's the most lethal weapon in college football, by a standard deviation.Â If you started a college football team, you'd draft him first, without question.Â (You can always get the second best quarterback, or even third--at least this season--and be just fine; the wins over replacement value are negligible.Â Similarly, I don't see much wins over replacement value in skipping Henry and taking Fournette, or even Elliot.Â

But there is no one can you can sub in for Mac, although Cook would be a nice get.

So yes, the Voldemort is a joke, chosen by men who played football and others who comment on the sport and who, despite all of that, still don't fully understand it

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Mick - 12-15-2015

(12-15-2015, 07:20 AM)Hulk01 link Wrote:So yes, the F Stanford award is a joke, chosen by men who played football and others who comment on the sport and who, despite all of that, still don't fully understand it

+1000.Â Great post.Â Throw in a little anti-western, anti-Stanford bigotry.Â I don't think most football writers understand football.Â They can repeat what a coach or player says, they can write down the stats that are provided to them, but apart from that, there is little to distinguish them from the average boob on the couch.Â

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - CTcard - 12-15-2015

Between ski weekend (in the barely covered with man-made slush slopes of Vermont) and actual work, I'm still catching up on posts and haven't had a chance to throw in my two-bits on the H-man runner up situation. It seems this thread is a better place than the 7 page "Henry wins" thread that has rolled to the second page.

Of our second place finishers, McCaffrey has the biggest gripe. I may disagree with most of those past decisions but could always see the arguments on the other side. McCaffrey vs Henry is a strong enough case that it's hard to really appreciate the counter arguments.

The stupidest pro-Henry argument I have seen: McCaffrey's APY season was not as impressive as Sanders' because ... well whatever. That might be a reasonable argument if the choice was between Barry Sanders and Christian McCaffrey - completely irrelevant with respect to Henry.
While I also think the TD argument is pretty dumb, at least that has something to do with Henry.

I think many people of the bias angle a little off. Living in the east, I don't see much active anti-west or anti-Stanford sentiment, just many folks having no idea what is happening in the west. This is partly the parochial nature of college football coupled to the west being the most isolated population center and somewhat game times.

In that other thread, I was prepared to be appalled by the Jason Whitlock article. Much to my surprise I liked it. He did a decent job recapping the McCaffrey over Henry case, put some perspective on the level of injustice as these things go (not all that high), and even had some reasonably nuanced things to say about the weight of racial considerations and how that colors all sorts of issues in America. Not bad for a sports article.
http://j.school/post/134988976000/white-running-back-about-to-get-screwed-out-of

Another article I was surprised to appreciate was from our favourite whipping boy Jon Wilner (a H-man voter). It seems to roughly mirror the discussion on this board - and Wilner did his part by voting McCaffrey first and Henry third. In many ways, Wilner seems to be one of those sports writers who doesn't understand football all that well, and sometimes doesn't seem to like it all that much. However, he does take his voting responsibilities seriously (if not always effectively) and I appreciate his efforts to be open and state his case.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2015/12/14/the-Voldemort-trophy-my-ballot-another-stanford-silver-and-the-pac-12-challenge/

Finally, I wouldn't get too worked up over McCaffrey being left off the RB list on all these All-American teams. It's pretty clear that the primary driver there is the desire to spread the accolades around so that putting McCaffrey in the returner/all purpose slot is taken as an opportunity to give another good RB a nod. In most cases, I don't think the voters are actually ranking McCaffrey as worse than the 5th to 7th RB in the country.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Rally - 12-15-2015

On some lists he's a returner, on others he's list d as all purpose.Â Will that impact his "consensus" status?Â One reason I ask, a small reason, is that I have read that a requirement for induction into the college hall of fame is either Voldemort or consensus all American.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - washingtonismoney - 12-15-2015

https://twitter.com/treeSIDjorge/status/676802462112616450

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - BostonCard - 12-15-2015

I have found three of the five all-America teams that make up the "consensus".

AP: http://collegefootball.ap.org/article/ap-all-america-team-list-0
Sporting News: http://www.sportingnews.com/list/4688069-sporting-news-all-american-team-derrick-henry-christian-mccaffrey-baker-mayfield-notre-dame-ohio-state-alabama-baylor
FWAA: http://www.sportswriters.net/fwaa/news/2015/allamerica151214.html
Walter Camp: http://waltercamp.org/126th-walter-camp-all-america-teams-announced/

I don't see the AFCA awards online yet.

Josh Garnett is first team on all four so he is a consensus all-American and likely a unanimous pick once the AFCA awards are announced.
McCaffrey is on the first team as a running back for the Sporting News team, all-Purpose player for the AP, and kick returner for FWAA.Â He was second team at both running back and kick returner for Walter Camp (boo).Â I don't know the answer to Ferrari's question on whether he must be listed at the same position to be considered a consensus pick.Â That being said, he is on three lists, so if there is no requirement for it to be at the same position, then he is a consensus first-team All American, but will not be a unanimous all-American this year.

BC

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Rally - 12-15-2015

(12-15-2015, 09:57 AM)Boston Card link Wrote:I have found three of the five all-America teams that make up the "consensus".

AP: http://collegefootball.ap.org/article/ap-all-america-team-list-0
Sporting News: http://www.sportingnews.com/list/4688069-sporting-news-all-american-team-derrick-henry-christian-mccaffrey-baker-mayfield-notre-dame-ohio-state-alabama-baylor
FWAA: http://www.sportswriters.net/fwaa/news/2015/allamerica151214.html
Walter Camp: http://waltercamp.org/126th-walter-camp-all-america-teams-announced/

I don't see the AFCA awards online yet.

Josh Garnett is first team on all four so he is a consensus all-American and likely a unanimous pick once the AFCA awards are announced.
McCaffrey is on the first team as a running back for the Sporting News team, all-Purpose player for the AP, and kick returner for FWAA.Â He was second team at both running back and kick returner for Walter Camp (boo).Â I don't know the answer to Ferrari's question on whether he must be listed at the same position to be considered a consensus pick.Â That being said, he is on three lists, so if there is no requirement for it to be at the same position, then he is a consensus first-team All American, but will not be a unanimous all-American this year.

BC

One would think if the NCAA is going to recognize those five they would at least require each have the same positions.Â And, of course, how can anyone leave the new record holder on the second team????

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - pauloalto - 12-15-2015

(12-15-2015, 09:35 AM)ferrari link Wrote:On some lists he's a returner, on others he's list d as all purpose.Â Will that impact his "consensus" status?Â One reason I ask, a small reason, is that I have read that a requirement for induction into the college hall of fame is either F Stanford award or consensus all American.

Here is what the NCAA said in introducing the recognized 2013 all-americans:

"The following players were listed on the most first team All-America teams competing against players at that position only. To be selected a player has to be named first team on at least two of the five selected All-American teams. Second and third teams were used to break ties. Ten players were unanimous choices by the five organizations used in the consensus chart American Football Coaches Association, Associated Press, Football Writers Association of America, The Sporting News and Walter Camp Foundation.Â Note: Each of the five teams has a different way of listing the returner or all-purpose player.Â For the purpose of the Consensus All-America team those categories were treated as one position."

So returner and all-purpose count as one position.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - pauloalto - 12-15-2015

Ferrarri, I looked it up so you don't have to. McCaffrey is currently tied with Evan Berry (Tennessee) for the combined Kick Returner/All-Purpose position. With 4 of the 5 lists out, each has 2 first places and 1 second place.

Now it's up to the Football Coaches list.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - terry - 12-15-2015

(12-15-2015, 11:52 AM)anmalanman link Wrote:Ferrarri, I looked it up so you don't have to. McCaffrey is currently tied with Evan Berry (Tennessee) for the combined Kick Returner/All-Purpose position. With 4 of the 5 lists out, each has 2 first places and 1 second place.

Now it's up to the Football Coaches list.

The Football Coaches' team includes an all purpose player. I'll bet McCaffrey gets it.

Re: All America teams -- Sports Illustrated, CBS, USA Today - Rally - 12-15-2015

(12-15-2015, 11:52 AM)anmalanman link Wrote:Ferrarri, I looked it up so you don't have to. McCaffrey is currently tied with Evan Berry (Tennessee) for the combined Kick Returner/All-Purpose position. With 4 of the 5 lists out, each has 2 first places and 1 second place.

Now it's up to the Football Coaches list.

Thanks.Â Hard to see them justifying not naming the all time record holder first team.Â (Is that a sentence?)