Outside Topic SF Giants 2024 - Printable Version
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RE: SF Giants 2024 - OutsiderFan - 10-26-2023
(10-25-2023, 06:30 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Abortion? Let's keep politics out of the discussion.
FYI: Like many words, "abortion" has multiple meanings. The one I use:
"an object or undertaking regarded by the speaker as unpleasant or badly made or carried out."
In this case, I am the "speaker" and used "abortion" as shorthand for what I regarded as ham handed bungling of last year's free agency efforts.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Mick - 10-26-2023
Getting away from politics, and this is the last time I'll mention it, but...
I know I'm in the minority. I think Johnson fired the wrong guy. I think Kapler worked wonders with a minimum level of talent. He didn't get to work with 15 years of great draft picks culminating in Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Romo, Crawford, Belt and Panik; and let's not forget great picks who were traded away like Zack Wheeler, Bryan Reynolds, Matt Duffy and Adam Duvall.
Separately, we haven't had great free agents like Pence, Burrell, Huff, Scutaro, Cabrera, Pagan, Torres, Ross, Morse, or great Latin players like Sandoval, other than Flores. Mostly, we've had disappointments.
We haven't had a great draft in the last 11 years. Logan Webb and Bailey, and that's about it. Bryan Reynolds, who we traded away. You can point at Sabean's later years, Bobby Evans, early Farhan...but the talent hasn't been here. And that's why Kapler was forced to platoon and use relievers as starters. Which led to 107 wins in 2021...and to be candid, if Posey plays in 2020 and Brian Bannister gets a COVID shot and is on site, the Giants are in the playoffs (they finished one game out). And remember...NONE of Kapler's years were as bad as Bochy's last three years. When the talent wasn't there. Which it still isn't.
We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Giants - 10-26-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698338541' Wrote: 1698338541[/url]']
Getting away from politics, and this is the last time I'll mention it, but...
I know I'm in the minority. I think Johnson fired the wrong guy. I think Kapler worked wonders with a minimum level of talent. He didn't get to work with 15 years of great draft picks culminating in Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Romo, Crawford, Belt and Panik; and let's not forget great picks who were traded away like Zack Wheeler, Bryan Reynolds, Matt Duffy and Adam Duvall.
Separately, we haven't had great free agents like Pence, Burrell, Huff, Scutaro, Cabrera, Pagan, Torres, Ross, Morse, or great Latin players like Sandoval, other than Flores. Mostly, we've had disappointments.
We haven't had a great draft in the last 11 years. Logan Webb and Bailey, and that's about it. Bryan Reynolds, who we traded away. You can point at Sabean's later years, Bobby Evans, early Farhan...but the talent hasn't been here. And that's why Kapler was forced to platoon and use relievers as starters. Which led to 107 wins in 2021...and to be candid, if Posey plays in 2020 and Brian Bannister gets a COVID shot and is on site, the Giants are in the playoffs (they finished one game out). And remember...NONE of Kapler's years were as bad as Bochy's last three years. When the talent wasn't there. Which it still isn't.
We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
Just for the record…
Pence, Scutaro, Pagan and Cabrera were obtained via trade.
Also, it is a bit early to dismiss the drafts from the last four years. There are some darn good prospects working their way up to the big club. Heck, I think SF did the best of any team in the majors in 2020.
Lastly, no need to continue to debate this. Everyone has clearly staked out their position. Time will tell whether Melvin can meet the challenge of leading SF back to the top.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - triangle2 - 10-26-2023
(10-26-2023, 09:42 AM)Mick Wrote: We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
Mick, you might be right. But I wonder if Zaidi on the hot seat means that he'll ask ownership to vastly overpay for Yamamoto or Lee after losing the Ohtani sweepstakes -- both because Zaidi needs to deliver and because internally, someone must know that the fan base is bleeding out.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - OutsiderFan - 10-26-2023
(10-26-2023, 02:39 PM)triangle2 Wrote: ...internally, someone must know that the fan base is bleeding out.
Oh, the Giants' ownership knows how pissed the fans are. They know they want stars. The problem is the fans now believe the Giants can't produce any of their own (or have traded away the few they might have had after Posey and Bumgarner), and have no choice but to sign them as free agents. And they expect them to do so because they know how valuable the Giants are and that they have one of the wealthiest collection of owners in all of sports.
Greg Johnson may be being truthful when he says the ownership group wants to try breaking even, but fans don't want to hear this when they know how wealthy the owners are. I personally think Johnson makes sense, and know you don't need to spend a fortune to have a contending team. But again, if your farm system can't produce stars and the fans want to see them, you have to pay through the nose - or luxury tax - to get them or watch fan interest and attendance dwindle.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Giants - 10-26-2023
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1698362305' Wrote: 1698362305[/url]']
triangle2 dateline='[url=tel:1698356342' Wrote: 1698356342[/url]']
...internally, someone must know that the fan base is bleeding out.
Oh, the Giants' ownership knows how pissed the fans are. They know they want stars. The problem is the fans now believe the Giants can't produce any of their own (or have traded away the few they might have had after Posey and Bumgarner), and have no choice but to sign them as free agents. And they expect them to do so because they know how valuable the Giants are and that they have one of the wealthiest collection of owners in all of sports.
Greg Johnson may be being truthful when he says the ownership group wants to try breaking even, but fans don't want to hear this when they know how wealthy the owners are. I personally think Johnson makes sense, and know you don't need to spend a fortune to have a contending team. But again, if your farm system can't produce stars and the fans want to see them, you have to pay through the nose - or luxury tax - to get them or watch fan interest and attendance dwindle.
The problem for fans should be when you have a Fisher as your owner. He has no desire to break even, he wants to make a healthy profit (and I am sure he does given the ridiculous profit sharing arrangement the MLB employs).
I think the Giants should be commended for trying to stay around the break even point instead of profiteering. It’s not a charitable organization. It is a for-profit business.
Fans are so stupid……
RE: SF Giants 2024 - cardcrimson - 10-26-2023
(10-26-2023, 04:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(10-26-2023, 02:39 PM)triangle2 Wrote: ...internally, someone must know that the fan base is bleeding out.
The problem is the fans now believe the Giants can't produce any of their own (or have traded away the few they might have had after Posey and Bumgarner), and have no choice but to sign them as free agents.
We do? I think the Giants have some great young talent they've developed. Add in a few overseas players and a good trade or two and they'll do well next year.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Mick - 10-26-2023
(10-26-2023, 02:28 PM)Giants Wrote:Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698338541' Wrote: 1698338541[/url]']
Getting away from politics, and this is the last time I'll mention it, but...
I know I'm in the minority. I think Johnson fired the wrong guy. I think Kapler worked wonders with a minimum level of talent. He didn't get to work with 15 years of great draft picks culminating in Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Romo, Crawford, Belt and Panik; and let's not forget great picks who were traded away like Zack Wheeler, Bryan Reynolds, Matt Duffy and Adam Duvall.
Separately, we haven't had great free agents like Pence, Burrell, Huff, Scutaro, Cabrera, Pagan, Torres, Ross, Morse, or great Latin players like Sandoval, other than Flores. Mostly, we've had disappointments.
We haven't had a great draft in the last 11 years. Logan Webb and Bailey, and that's about it. Bryan Reynolds, who we traded away. You can point at Sabean's later years, Bobby Evans, early Farhan...but the talent hasn't been here. And that's why Kapler was forced to platoon and use relievers as starters. Which led to 107 wins in 2021...and to be candid, if Posey plays in 2020 and Brian Bannister gets a COVID shot and is on site, the Giants are in the playoffs (they finished one game out). And remember...NONE of Kapler's years were as bad as Bochy's last three years. When the talent wasn't there. Which it still isn't.
We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
Just for the record…
Pence, Scutaro, Pagan and Cabrera were obtained via trade.
Also, it is a bit early to dismiss the drafts from the last four years. There are some darn good prospects working their way up to the big club. Heck, I think SF did the best of any team in the majors in 2020.
Lastly, no need to continue to debate this. Everyone has clearly staked out their position. Time will tell whether Melvin can meet the challenge of leading SF back to the top.
Agreed. I already said above that this was the last time I'd mention it. And I don't care if they were acquired via trade or free agency. The point is that very good players were acquired. The 2010/2/4 teams had very good players. The 2023 version did not.
(10-26-2023, 06:57 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(10-26-2023, 04:18 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(10-26-2023, 02:39 PM)triangle2 Wrote: ...internally, someone must know that the fan base is bleeding out.
The problem is the fans now believe the Giants can't produce any of their own (or have traded away the few they might have had after Posey and Bumgarner), and have no choice but to sign them as free agents.
We do? I think the Giants have some great young talent they've developed. Add in a few overseas players and a good trade or two and they'll do well next year.
I don't disagree, but their rookie years were not scintillating overall, though I admit there were flashes of brilliance, and until he hit a wall (come to think of it, until a number of them hit the wall), Bailey was hitting very well. Maybe, instead of a collective Sophomore Slump they will have a Sophomore Bonanza.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - lex24 - 10-27-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698338541' Wrote: 1698338541[/url]']
Getting away from politics, and this is the last time I'll mention it, but...
I know I'm in the minority. I think Johnson fired the wrong guy. I think Kapler worked wonders with a minimum level of talent. He didn't get to work with 15 years of great draft picks culminating in Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Romo, Crawford, Belt and Panik; and let's not forget great picks who were traded away like Zack Wheeler, Bryan Reynolds, Matt Duffy and Adam Duvall.
Separately, we haven't had great free agents like Pence, Burrell, Huff, Scutaro, Cabrera, Pagan, Torres, Ross, Morse, or great Latin players like Sandoval, other than Flores. Mostly, we've had disappointments.
We haven't had a great draft in the last 11 years. Logan Webb and Bailey, and that's about it. Bryan Reynolds, who we traded away. You can point at Sabean's later years, Bobby Evans, early Farhan...but the talent hasn't been here. And that's why Kapler was forced to platoon and use relievers as starters. Which led to 107 wins in 2021...and to be candid, if Posey plays in 2020 and Brian Bannister gets a COVID shot and is on site, the Giants are in the playoffs (they finished one game out). And remember...NONE of Kapler's years were as bad as Bochy's last three years. When the talent wasn't there. Which it still isn't.
We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
Kapler got fired cause he was not respected by the players. You don’t hear comments like those made by Yaz and Webb very often. Nothing is worse from a managerial perspective then hearing that there is not a winning “culture” in the clubhouse and that several players were playing for themselves.
Melvin is not “Bochy lite”. Very different background - Melvin coming from 11 years of Moneyball. He does, however, understand that he’s managing players, not chess pieces.
Kapler was not “forced” to use openers three times in 5 games over a long period. He could have started Manaea much earlier. He also could have started Beck.
Everyone platoons. Melvin certainly will. But he won’t do the “line shifts”.
It’s a matter of balance and degree.
Said it before, I’ll say it again, Kapler won’t be managing anytime soon. He may get a front office job. If minor, he can be a spokesperson for Coppertone’s coconut oil tanning products.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Mick - 10-27-2023
(10-27-2023, 12:47 PM)lex24 Wrote:Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698338541' Wrote: 1698338541[/url]']
Getting away from politics, and this is the last time I'll mention it, but...
I know I'm in the minority. I think Johnson fired the wrong guy. I think Kapler worked wonders with a minimum level of talent. He didn't get to work with 15 years of great draft picks culminating in Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Romo, Crawford, Belt and Panik; and let's not forget great picks who were traded away like Zack Wheeler, Bryan Reynolds, Matt Duffy and Adam Duvall.
Separately, we haven't had great free agents like Pence, Burrell, Huff, Scutaro, Cabrera, Pagan, Torres, Ross, Morse, or great Latin players like Sandoval, other than Flores. Mostly, we've had disappointments.
We haven't had a great draft in the last 11 years. Logan Webb and Bailey, and that's about it. Bryan Reynolds, who we traded away. You can point at Sabean's later years, Bobby Evans, early Farhan...but the talent hasn't been here. And that's why Kapler was forced to platoon and use relievers as starters. Which led to 107 wins in 2021...and to be candid, if Posey plays in 2020 and Brian Bannister gets a COVID shot and is on site, the Giants are in the playoffs (they finished one game out). And remember...NONE of Kapler's years were as bad as Bochy's last three years. When the talent wasn't there. Which it still isn't.
We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
Kapler got fired cause he was not respected by the players. You don’t hear comments like those made by Yaz and Webb very often. Nothing is worse from a managerial perspective then hearing that there is not a winning “culture” in the clubhouse and that several players were playing for themselves.
Melvin is not “Bochy lite”. Very different background - Melvin coming from 11 years of Moneyball. He does, however, understand that he’s managing players, not chess pieces.
Kapler was not “forced” to use openers three times in 5 games over a long period. He could have started Manaea much earlier. He also could have started Beck.
Everyone platoons. Melvin certainly will. But he won’t do the “line shifts”.
It’s a matter of balance and degree.
Said it before, I’ll say it again, Kapler won’t be managing anytime soon. He may get a front office job. If minor, he can be a spokesperson for Coppertone’s coconut oil tanning products.
Based upon your thoughts and the general tenor around BoMel, he sounds like an amazing manager. So how many wins are you guaranteeing next season?
RE: SF Giants 2024 - lex24 - 10-27-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698448838' Wrote: 1698448838[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698436076' Wrote: 1698436076[/url]']
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698338541' Wrote: 1698338541[/url]']
Getting away from politics, and this is the last time I'll mention it, but...
I know I'm in the minority. I think Johnson fired the wrong guy. I think Kapler worked wonders with a minimum level of talent. He didn't get to work with 15 years of great draft picks culminating in Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Romo, Crawford, Belt and Panik; and let's not forget great picks who were traded away like Zack Wheeler, Bryan Reynolds, Matt Duffy and Adam Duvall.
Separately, we haven't had great free agents like Pence, Burrell, Huff, Scutaro, Cabrera, Pagan, Torres, Ross, Morse, or great Latin players like Sandoval, other than Flores. Mostly, we've had disappointments.
We haven't had a great draft in the last 11 years. Logan Webb and Bailey, and that's about it. Bryan Reynolds, who we traded away. You can point at Sabean's later years, Bobby Evans, early Farhan...but the talent hasn't been here. And that's why Kapler was forced to platoon and use relievers as starters. Which led to 107 wins in 2021...and to be candid, if Posey plays in 2020 and Brian Bannister gets a COVID shot and is on site, the Giants are in the playoffs (they finished one game out). And remember...NONE of Kapler's years were as bad as Bochy's last three years. When the talent wasn't there. Which it still isn't.
We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
Kapler got fired cause he was not respected by the players. You don’t hear comments like those made by Yaz and Webb very often. Nothing is worse from a managerial perspective then hearing that there is not a winning “culture” in the clubhouse and that several players were playing for themselves.
Melvin is not “Bochy lite”. Very different background - Melvin coming from 11 years of Moneyball. He does, however, understand that he’s managing players, not chess pieces.
Kapler was not “forced” to use openers three times in 5 games over a long period. He could have started Manaea much earlier. He also could have started Beck.
Everyone platoons. Melvin certainly will. But he won’t do the “line shifts”.
It’s a matter of balance and degree.
Said it before, I’ll say it again, Kapler won’t be managing anytime soon. He may get a front office job. If minor, he can be a spokesperson for Coppertone’s coconut oil tanning products.
Based upon your thoughts and the general tenor around BoMel, he sounds like an amazing manager. So how many wins are you guaranteeing next season?
Mick, how bout we see the roster first?
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Mick - 10-28-2023
(10-27-2023, 04:53 PM)lex24 Wrote:Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698448838' Wrote: 1698448838[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698436076' Wrote: 1698436076[/url]']
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698338541' Wrote: 1698338541[/url]']
Getting away from politics, and this is the last time I'll mention it, but...
I know I'm in the minority. I think Johnson fired the wrong guy. I think Kapler worked wonders with a minimum level of talent. He didn't get to work with 15 years of great draft picks culminating in Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Romo, Crawford, Belt and Panik; and let's not forget great picks who were traded away like Zack Wheeler, Bryan Reynolds, Matt Duffy and Adam Duvall.
Separately, we haven't had great free agents like Pence, Burrell, Huff, Scutaro, Cabrera, Pagan, Torres, Ross, Morse, or great Latin players like Sandoval, other than Flores. Mostly, we've had disappointments.
We haven't had a great draft in the last 11 years. Logan Webb and Bailey, and that's about it. Bryan Reynolds, who we traded away. You can point at Sabean's later years, Bobby Evans, early Farhan...but the talent hasn't been here. And that's why Kapler was forced to platoon and use relievers as starters. Which led to 107 wins in 2021...and to be candid, if Posey plays in 2020 and Brian Bannister gets a COVID shot and is on site, the Giants are in the playoffs (they finished one game out). And remember...NONE of Kapler's years were as bad as Bochy's last three years. When the talent wasn't there. Which it still isn't.
We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
Kapler got fired cause he was not respected by the players. You don’t hear comments like those made by Yaz and Webb very often. Nothing is worse from a managerial perspective then hearing that there is not a winning “culture” in the clubhouse and that several players were playing for themselves.
Melvin is not “Bochy lite”. Very different background - Melvin coming from 11 years of Moneyball. He does, however, understand that he’s managing players, not chess pieces.
Kapler was not “forced” to use openers three times in 5 games over a long period. He could have started Manaea much earlier. He also could have started Beck.
Everyone platoons. Melvin certainly will. But he won’t do the “line shifts”.
It’s a matter of balance and degree.
Said it before, I’ll say it again, Kapler won’t be managing anytime soon. He may get a front office job. If minor, he can be a spokesperson for Coppertone’s coconut oil tanning products.
Based upon your thoughts and the general tenor around BoMel, he sounds like an amazing manager. So how many wins are you guaranteeing next season?
Mick, how bout we see the roster first?
No need to wait. It has been promised that the Giants will sign beaucoup significant free agents solely because of BoMel's wonderful charm, length of career and experience with Far Eastern players. So we have to assume a dramatically improved roster. Separately, given that BoMel is a significant upgrade over the terminally antisocial Kapler, then we must infer for a fact that the SF Giants will win many more games this year, just by clearing out the managerial deadwood.
So. How many wins based upon the available information and implied promises?
RE: SF Giants 2024 - lex24 - 10-28-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698506777' Wrote: 1698506777[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698450837' Wrote: 1698450837[/url]']
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698448838' Wrote: 1698448838[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698436076' Wrote: 1698436076[/url]']
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698338541' Wrote: 1698338541[/url]']
Getting away from politics, and this is the last time I'll mention it, but...
I know I'm in the minority. I think Johnson fired the wrong guy. I think Kapler worked wonders with a minimum level of talent. He didn't get to work with 15 years of great draft picks culminating in Posey, Bumgarner, Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Romo, Crawford, Belt and Panik; and let's not forget great picks who were traded away like Zack Wheeler, Bryan Reynolds, Matt Duffy and Adam Duvall.
Separately, we haven't had great free agents like Pence, Burrell, Huff, Scutaro, Cabrera, Pagan, Torres, Ross, Morse, or great Latin players like Sandoval, other than Flores. Mostly, we've had disappointments.
We haven't had a great draft in the last 11 years. Logan Webb and Bailey, and that's about it. Bryan Reynolds, who we traded away. You can point at Sabean's later years, Bobby Evans, early Farhan...but the talent hasn't been here. And that's why Kapler was forced to platoon and use relievers as starters. Which led to 107 wins in 2021...and to be candid, if Posey plays in 2020 and Brian Bannister gets a COVID shot and is on site, the Giants are in the playoffs (they finished one game out). And remember...NONE of Kapler's years were as bad as Bochy's last three years. When the talent wasn't there. Which it still isn't.
We fired the wrong guy. And we hired Bochy-lite.
Kapler got fired cause he was not respected by the players. You don’t hear comments like those made by Yaz and Webb very often. Nothing is worse from a managerial perspective then hearing that there is not a winning “culture” in the clubhouse and that several players were playing for themselves.
Melvin is not “Bochy lite”. Very different background - Melvin coming from 11 years of Moneyball. He does, however, understand that he’s managing players, not chess pieces.
Kapler was not “forced” to use openers three times in 5 games over a long period. He could have started Manaea much earlier. He also could have started Beck.
Everyone platoons. Melvin certainly will. But he won’t do the “line shifts”.
It’s a matter of balance and degree.
Said it before, I’ll say it again, Kapler won’t be managing anytime soon. He may get a front office job. If minor, he can be a spokesperson for Coppertone’s coconut oil tanning products.
Based upon your thoughts and the general tenor around BoMel, he sounds like an amazing manager. So how many wins are you guaranteeing next season?
Mick, how bout we see the roster first?
No need to wait. It has been promised that the Giants will sign beaucoup significant free agents solely because of BoMel's wonderful charm, length of career and experience with Far Eastern players. So we have to assume a dramatically improved roster. Separately, given that BoMel is a significant upgrade over the terminally antisocial Kapler, then we must infer for a fact that the SF Giants will win many more games this year, just by clearing out the managerial deadwood.
So. How many wins based upon the available information and implied promises?
You don’t like Melvin. Got it. Don’t understand why. But you are entitled to your opinion.
As to Kapler - just listen to the outpouring of respect from his players. Both while with Phillies and now. It’s deafening.
Here’s what I will commit to - they will win more than 78 games. Melvin won’t wear body shirts or have Mini Me sitting next to him in the dugout. And we won’t have three openers every five games. Coconut oil sales will drop.
When I see a roster, I’ll make my prediction. As useless as it is.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Giants - 10-28-2023
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698510630' Wrote: 1698510630[/url]']
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698506777' Wrote: 1698506777[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698450837' Wrote: 1698450837[/url]']
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698448838' Wrote: 1698448838[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698436076' Wrote: 1698436076[/url]']
Kapler got fired cause he was not respected by the players. You don’t hear comments like those made by Yaz and Webb very often. Nothing is worse from a managerial perspective then hearing that there is not a winning “culture” in the clubhouse and that several players were playing for themselves.
Melvin is not “Bochy lite”. Very different background - Melvin coming from 11 years of Moneyball. He does, however, understand that he’s managing players, not chess pieces.
Kapler was not “forced” to use openers three times in 5 games over a long period. He could have started Manaea much earlier. He also could have started Beck.
Everyone platoons. Melvin certainly will. But he won’t do the “line shifts”.
It’s a matter of balance and degree.
Said it before, I’ll say it again, Kapler won’t be managing anytime soon. He may get a front office job. If minor, he can be a spokesperson for Coppertone’s coconut oil tanning products.
Based upon your thoughts and the general tenor around BoMel, he sounds like an amazing manager. So how many wins are you guaranteeing next season?
Mick, how bout we see the roster first?
No need to wait. It has been promised that the Giants will sign beaucoup significant free agents solely because of BoMel's wonderful charm, length of career and experience with Far Eastern players. So we have to assume a dramatically improved roster. Separately, given that BoMel is a significant upgrade over the terminally antisocial Kapler, then we must infer for a fact that the SF Giants will win many more games this year, just by clearing out the managerial deadwood.
So. How many wins based upon the available information and implied promises?
You don’t like Melvin. Got it. Don’t understand why. But you are entitled to your opinion.
As to Kapler - just listen to the outpouring of respect from his players. Both while with Phillies and now. It’s deafening.
Here’s what I will commit to - they will win more than 78 games. Melvin won’t wear body shirts or have Mini Me sitting next to him in the dugout. And we won’t have three openers every five games. Coconut oil sales will drop.
When I see a roster, I’ll make my prediction. As useless as it is.
To the contrary, your prognostications are valued - you nailed it in 22 and missed by one in 23. I look forward to seeing your number for this season.
At this point, I have them at 85 wins (Melvin worth 5-7 wins before anything else happens). However, as you have noted, we need to see the final roster before making a definitive call.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Mick - 10-28-2023
(10-28-2023, 09:30 AM)lex24 Wrote: Kapler got fired cause he was not respected by the players. You don’t hear comments like those made by Yaz and Webb very often. Nothing is worse from a managerial perspective then hearing that there is not a winning “culture” in the clubhouse and that several players were playing for themselves.
With the greatest of respect, when I hear players make those comments -- players who are performing poorly -- it sounds like convenient scapegoating, like when Stripling claimed he didn't understand how he was being used when his ERA was 9.75.
lex24 Wrote: Melvin is not “Bochy lite”. Very different background - Melvin coming from 11 years of Moneyball. He does, however, understand that he’s managing players, not chess pieces.
I referred to Melvin as Bochy-lite because they're both have similar profiles and not-very-different backgrounds. They're both Baby Boomer backup catchers who worked their way up the ranks, and they're both strong managers with lengthy careers managing west coast teams with career managing records of around .500. They're both liked and admired by the players. Both are humble and shift the spotlight to the players when things are going well, and don't criticize them when things go poorly.
One major exception is that Bochy is exceptional managing in the post-season...as he's proving right this very second. And that, to me, is why BoMel is Bochy lite...a term employed by Steve Henson of the LA Times in his 8/24 article.
(10-28-2023, 09:30 AM)lex24 Wrote: Kapler was not “forced” to use openers three times in 5 games over a long period. He could have started Manaea much earlier. He also could have started Beck. Everyone platoons. Melvin certainly will. But he won’t do the “line shifts”. It’s a matter of balance and degree.
Agree to disagree. The Giants had two reliable starters, and Manaea wasn't one of them, so he was, indeed, forced to use openers -- which was a very effective strategy. As of 8/23, the Giants' record using openers was 15-5.
You and others indicated great satisfaction in the hiring of Bob Melvin, the answer to everyone's prayers. He had great relationships with players, is respected around the league, can help land the free agents that Robo-manager couldn't, so I figured it was a legitimate request to project the number of how wins that BoMel and Farhan will have next season with all the successful free agents that BoMel lands and the much-happier, much more content Giants players.
(10-28-2023, 09:30 AM)lex24 Wrote: You don’t like Melvin. Got it.Don’t understand why. But you are entitled to your opinion.
Not remotely correct. I never said that I didn't like Melvin, nor that I thought he would be ineffective. He's a 3x Manager of the Year, GK was only a 1x Manager of the Year. Obviously, Melvin knows how to manage both up and down, given his lengthy managing career. I just don't think he's going to be very successful, either in attracting high-profile free agents, or improving the results on Farhan's mediocre players. I certainly hope he does, I just think the odds are against it.
(10-28-2023, 09:30 AM)lex24 Wrote: Here’s what I will commit to - they will win more than 78 games. Melvin won’t wear body shirts or have Mini Me sitting next to him in the dugout. And we won’t have three openers every five games. Coconut oil sales will drop.
1. Maybe with a 15-5 record in openers, we should use openers 60% of the time.
2. Melvin has his own mini-me (Matt Williams). He'll choose a staff he's comfortable with, and they'll all be mini-me variations.
3. If I was shaped like Melvin, I wouldn't wear body shirts either.
4. 78 wins sounds disingenuous, unless you're tacitly admitting that Melvin will be a lesser manager than 79-win Kapler.
I'm asking for a prediction now because every review and every commentator I've read and heard (including Melvin himself) has claimed that BoMel's storied experience and great reputation and MLB contacts implicitly guarantee that now the Giants will be able to sign the best, high-level free agents, all of whom will want to come play for BoMel. Therefore, we don't need to wait for an actual roster, we can assume that a spectacular roster of mulitiple-year All-Stars is right around the corner. Given BoMel's exceptional upgrade over Coconut Head and BoMel's mystical abilities to sign top-level free agents, I must say that I'm disappointed in a 78-win projection, four wins less than BoMel's performance this year. I am trying to understand (a) the outpouring of love for a manager who failed with the most loaded lineup in the National League and the implicit promise that because of BoMel's disdain of coconut products, he will necessarily cause the Giants to sign successful free agents when Maxi-me couldn't and (b) that the players will rally round BoMel thanks to his experience, Gandalf-like wisdom and sparkling personality.
Based upon the near-universal love for BoMel, I would have expected a prediction of at least 95 wins and an NL West title...
RE: SF Giants 2024 - lex24 - 10-28-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698516599' Wrote: 1698516599[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698510630' Wrote: 1698510630[/url]']
Kapler got fired cause he was not respected by the players. You don’t hear comments like those made by Yaz and Webb very often. Nothing is worse from a managerial perspective then hearing that there is not a winning “culture” in the clubhouse and that several players were playing for themselves.
With the greatest of respect, when I hear players make those comments -- players who are performing poorly -- it sounds like convenient scapegoating, like when Stripling claimed he didn't understand how he was being used when his ERA was 9.75.
lex24 Wrote: Melvin is not “Bochy lite”. Very different background - Melvin coming from 11 years of Moneyball. He does, however, understand that he’s managing players, not chess pieces.
I referred to Melvin as Bochy-lite because they're both have similar profiles and not-very-different backgrounds. They're both Baby Boomer backup catchers who worked their way up the ranks, and they're both strong managers with lengthy careers managing west coast teams with career managing records of around .500. They're both liked and admired by the players. Both are humble and shift the spotlight to the players when things are going well, and don't criticize them when things go poorly.
One major exception is that Bochy is exceptional managing in the post-season...as he's proving right this very second. And that, to me, is why BoMel is Bochy lite...a term employed by Steve Henson of the LA Times in his 8/24 article.
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698510630' Wrote: 1698510630[/url]']Kapler was not “forced” to use openers three times in 5 games over a long period. He could have started Manaea much earlier. He also could have started Beck. Everyone platoons. Melvin certainly will. But he won’t do the “line shifts”. It’s a matter of balance and degree.
Agree to disagree. The Giants had two reliable starters, and Manaea wasn't one of them, so he was, indeed, forced to use openers -- which was a very effective strategy. As of 8/23, the Giants' record using openers was 15-5.
You and others indicated great satisfaction in the hiring of Bob Melvin, the answer to everyone's prayers. He had great relationships with players, is respected around the league, can help land the free agents that Robo-manager couldn't, so I figured it was a legitimate request to project the number of how wins that BoMel and Farhan will have next season with all the successful free agents that BoMel lands and the much-happier, much more content Giants players.
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698510630' Wrote: 1698510630[/url]']You don’t like Melvin. Got it.Don’t understand why. But you are entitled to your opinion.
Not remotely correct. I never said that I didn't like Melvin, nor that I thought he would be ineffective. He's a 3x Manager of the Year, GK was only a 1x Manager of the Year. Obviously, Melvin knows how to manage both up and down, given his lengthy managing career. I just don't think he's going to be very successful, either in attracting high-profile free agents, or improving the results on Farhan's mediocre players. I certainly hope he does, I just think the odds are against it.
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1698510630' Wrote: 1698510630[/url]']
Here’s what I will commit to - they will win more than 78 games. Melvin won’t wear body shirts or have Mini Me sitting next to him in the dugout. And we won’t have three openers every five games. Coconut oil sales will drop.
1. Maybe with a 15-5 record in openers, we should use openers 60% of the time.
2. Melvin has his own mini-me (Matt Williams). He'll choose a staff he's comfortable with, and they'll all be mini-me variations.
3. If I was shaped like Melvin, I wouldn't wear body shirts either.
4. 78 wins sounds disingenuous, unless you're tacitly admitting that Melvin will be a lesser manager than 79-win Kapler.
I'm asking for a prediction now because every review and every commentator I've read and heard (including Melvin himself) has claimed that BoMel's storied experience and great reputation and MLB contacts implicitly guarantee that now the Giants will be able to sign the best, high-level free agents, all of whom will want to come play for BoMel. Therefore, we don't need to wait for an actual roster, we can assume that a spectacular roster of mulitiple-year All-Stars is right around the corner. Given BoMel's exceptional upgrade over Coconut Head and BoMel's mystical abilities to sign top-level free agents, I must say that I'm disappointed in a 78-win projection, four wins less than BoMel's performance this year. I am trying to understand (a) the outpouring of love for a manager who failed with the most loaded lineup in the National League and the implicit promise that because of BoMel's disdain of coconut products, he will necessarily cause the Giants to sign successful free agents when Maxi-me couldn't and (b) that the players will rally round BoMel thanks to his experience, Gandalf-like wisdom and sparkling personality.
Based upon the near-universal love for BoMel, I would have expected a prediction of at least 95 wins and an NL West title...
I don’t get either the vitriol or the sarcasm. Is it that he went to Cal? He’s respected. Do you disagree? Kapler got fired. By his friend and champion. So, something was wrong. Do you agree? ( You mentioned Stripling. I reference Webb and Yaz. Two of their most respected players. Webb had a near Cy Young season. Not to mention Zaidi saying they weren’t ready for most important games of year.)
Despite your narrative, I’ve seen no such predictions. We all know they need to bring in some better talent. Maybe they will maybe they won’t. There has been the suggestion that Melvin may help in that regard. Do you have proof otherwise?
If your concern is he will ignore analytics, rest assured. He won’t. Not even close. Spent 11 years with Beane. He’s well steeped in metrics.
Openers. Yes you have the numbers. But how did it work out overall - as their bullpen ran out of gas? The issue was always sustainability. Manaea started throwing well out of the pen months before he was reinserted into the rotation. And what about Beck. Would he not have been a capable starter?
And Matt Williams is nobody’s mini me.
I’ll admit my bias on two fronts. First, I never liked Kapler. Glad he’s gone. Second, I wanted Melvin from the get go. No other candidate comes close to his combination of experience, success, knowledge of Zaidi and he’s balanced. Will lean on analytics like all do. But won’t be completely dependent upon them.
Who did you want to get the job?
In any event, come March we can put up our predictions. As we have last couple.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Mick - 10-28-2023
(10-28-2023, 11:41 AM)lex24 Wrote: I don’t get either the vitriol or the sarcasm. Is it that he went to Cal? He’s respected. Do you disagree? Kapler got fired. By his friend and champion. So, something was wrong. Do you agree? (You mentioned Stripling. I reference Webb and Yaz. Two of their most respected players. Webb had a near Cy Young season. Not to mention Zaidi saying they weren’t ready for most important games of year.)
Despite your narrative, I’ve seen no such predictions. We all know they need to bring in some better talent. Maybe they will maybe they won’t. There has been the suggestion that Melvin may help in that regard. Do you have proof otherwise?
If your concern is he will ignore analytics, rest assured. He won’t. Not even close. Spent 11 years with Beane. He’s well steeped in metrics.
Openers. Yes you have the numbers. But how did it work out overall - as their bullpen ran out of gas? The issue was always sustainability. Manaea started throwing well out of the pen months before he was reinserted into the rotation. And what about Beck. Would he not have been a capable starter?
And Matt Williams is nobody’s mini me.
I’ll admit my bias on two fronts. First, I never liked Kapler. Glad he’s gone. Second, I wanted Melvin from the get go. No other candidate comes close to his combination of experience, success, knowledge of Zaidi and he’s balanced. Will lean on analytics like all do. But won’t be completely dependent upon them.
Who did you want to get the job?
In any event, come March we can put up our predictions. As we have last couple.
No vitriol and just a soupçon of sarcasm. Just pointing out the facts as I saw them. And I didn't hate Kapler, but I didn't forget his 107 win season, like everyone else seems to have, or the dramatic improvement that most of the hitters and pitchers had on that team. Or the fact that the Giants would have gone to the playoffs if Posey had played during Kapler's first season. Instead, they got Joey Bart and missed the playoffs by a game.
But Kapler had to get fired. Underperforming players were complaining because -- you know -- it was Kapler's fault that they were poor fielders and poor hitters. Much, much easier to complain about the manager and the clubhouse atmosphere than to look into the camera and take responsibility for stinking up the game. That's true for Stripling, who flat out sucked. That's true for Yaz, who hasn't played to 2019-2021 form over the last few years, because he's aged into an average player. And in a way, it's true for Matt Cain, er, I mean Logan Webb, who had the least run support in the major leagues for any pitcher with at least 20 starts. He's not going to throw his non-hitting teammates under the bus. And just as an aside, I don't think of the 11-13 Logan Webb as a Cy Young candidate. ESPN is projecting the top ten Cy Young vote receipients and Webb is not on it. And if you're Farhan and reporting to team ownership, you absolutely throw the manager under the bus -- much more digestible than saying "Kapler overachieved with my mediocre players." If you play your cards right, and get a beloved manager, you might even get a new three year contract out of it.
And I like that Melvin went to Cal, BTW. Where did that come from? I'm not anti-Cal. I was equally happy that my sons applied to Cal and didn't apply to USC. That's a point in his favor for me. It's one reason why I keep pumping up Jeff Kent for the HoF -- which he clearly deserves, and probably won't get, due to personality reasons. And I'm a brobdingnagian fan of Mark Canha (who also attended my kid's high school). So did DLew and Tyler Walker. And I know about Jensen, Chapman, Messersmith, Maloney, etc. and like I've posted here before, one of my granddads went to Cal.
I don't have proof that Melvin will or will not bring in free agents, but he doesn't seem experienced in getting free agents. By his own admission, that wasn't the way that the A's did business. He took a 93 win Mariners team, and turned it into a 63 win Mariners team, after which he was fired. With the DBacks, he had one 90 win season, the others were 82 or less, and he was 12-17 when he got fired. And you have to admit...the Padres are LOADED and the big free agents were mainly on that team when Melvin arrived. And they had to win 14 of 16 to finish with 82 wins.
I don't think Melvin (career managerial win percentage, .515) is all that great, because he was basically the opposite of Kapler (career managerial win percentage, .526 -- and .543 with the Giants). He took a loaded team and underachieved. Kapler took a team of mediocre players and overachieved. Their results were nearly identical. Melvin, to me, is like Bochy without the postseason chops. And to me, Matt Williams is a mini-Me Melvin. He managed for two years, had a great first team with the Nationals (which lost the NLDS to Bochy and the Giants despite having a superior regular season record)), and his second Nat'ls team dropped 13 games from the prior year.
Look, I get why Kapler was fired. His boss underachieved, so Farhan fired Kapler. And Yaz complaining...he's had two great years with the Giants (.852 and .968 OPS) and three average or worse years (.768, .697, .775). He went from being a stud in Kapler's first year, and 25 HRs in Kapler's second year to...hurt a lot and not as good in his 31 year old and 32 year old years. Yaz (not a great OF, BTW) is not going to improve as a 33 year old, nor is Stripling, nor is Haniger.
I didn't have a favorite manager. I thought Kapler was unique and managed very well and got the most out of the players. I'm not anti-Melvin or anti-Steven Vogt or anti-whoever-else-they-interviewed. I just don't think Melvin is an Amazingly Great Manager. I think he's good. Fine. But lots of people are treating him like he walks on water. And if that's the case, I want to see 90+ wins, which Melvin has hit six times in 20 seasons. Or at least 88 wins, which would be Kapler's average with the Giants.
But I'm open-minded. If they sign a bunch of high-level free agents, I'll buy into Melvin-as-savior.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Giants - 10-28-2023
Thanks, Mick. You answered a number of questions I had re: why you don’t think Melvin is “all that”.
The one thing I would point out - I disagree with using average in the context you detailed. It is better to use median. IMO, because the 107 is such an outlier, the average is significantly skewed. The median (81) represents a truer expectation based on past performance.
While we still have a strong difference of opinion regarding Melvin, I think we can agree the focus is now on Zaidi and how he navigates the off-season.
RE: SF Giants 2024 - Mick - 10-28-2023
Question for Lex and Giants. If, in 2023, the Padres and Giants switched managers at the beginning of the year, how do you think each manager would have done?
RE: SF Giants 2024 - lex24 - 10-29-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1698543919' Wrote: 1698543919[/url]']
Question for Lex and Giants. If, in 2023, the Padres and Giants switched managers at the beginning of the year, how do you think each manager would have done?
Mick, I don’t know. And I don’t care. It’s an impossible question to answer. You are free to mourn the loss of Kapler. I’m thrilled. “Different strokes for different folks. And so on and so on and scoobey doobie doobie.”
Giants dateline='[url=tel:1698538591' Wrote: 1698538591[/url]']
Thanks, Mick. You answered a number of questions I had re: why you don’t think Melvin is “all that”.
The one thing I would point out - I disagree with using average in the context you detailed. It is better to use median. IMO, because the 107 is such an outlier, the average is significantly skewed. The median (81) represents a truer expectation based on past performance.
While we still have a strong difference of opinion regarding Melvin, I think we can agree the focus is now on Zaidi and how he navigates the off-season.
We agree on that. New manager was just the first step.
What I don’t understand, Mick, is why you continue to brush aside the comments of Webb, Yaz and Zaidi. Seldom do players publicly make such comments. We can disagree on Webb as a CY candidate - yes, no way he wins. But please don’t use the W-L record to support your position. He had the worst run support in baseball. Led the league in innings. Had a terrific year. And he is the closest thing to a star the Giants have.
Yaz is not a star. But he’s as solid as they come. And a leader on the Giants.
Kapler was Zaidis first managerial choice. He picked him knowing it would not go over particularly well. So, that he came out near the end of the year and said they weren’t ready when it mattered most spoke volumes.
‘21 was a great year. Led by three supposedly washed up veterans.From day one, I’ve maintained, rightly or wrongly, that was more due to Posey, Crawford and Belt. Which is why I predicted 80 wins in ‘22 and 78 in ‘23.
But from comments and the dreadful second half, added together it appears that they stopped playing for Kapler. When that happens, the manager is toast.
Melvin is not going to turn chickens-t into chicken salad. Now it’s on Zaidi to improve the roster. Better chance to do so with Kapler gone. Players know what’s going on. And if there was that much public grumbling, it’s reasonable to conclude that there was much more that did not come out.
As for SD in ‘23, I don’t know what happened. But he has a 20 year track record. And a good one at that.