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RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 07-25-2022
Casey platooned but he had an excess of talent. When criticized for platooning Pedersen the refrain from the Giants is that he knew what he was signing up for.
What! If you can’t pivot just keep losing.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - OutsiderFan - 07-25-2022
(07-25-2022, 07:08 AM)lex24 Wrote:(07-25-2022, 04:26 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-24-2022, 07:18 PM)lex24 Wrote:(07-24-2022, 05:01 PM)Giants Wrote:(07-24-2022, 04:46 PM)Phogge Wrote: Longoria back on the IL. Time to thank him and release him.
He has earned the right to finish out the year. I suspect he will call it a career after this season. Regardless, it is his last with SF.
Following this season, I would wish Belt the best as well. That would leave Crawford as the last man standing from the bunch that won multi-championships.
Agree. Giants get swept by the evil machine and still are only a game out of 6th.
Today is on Kapler. He plays lip service to defense, but doesn’t truly value. Platoons. Puts Mercedes in left, DH Wynn. If he puts Pederson in left and Mercedes DH, maybe they don’t lose. Pederson easily catches that ball. Mercedes isn’t an outfielder. Which he showed. Why Wynn? Just because he’s a righty and they are facing Kershaw. He’s not a threat. He’s not a good hitter. Just a poor managerial decision. Managing by computer only takes you so far.
Defense is KILLING this team. Yet, Mercedes in left……
How would you re-arrange who is sitting in what deck chairs? This is like complaining about the play calling when your team has the worst roster in the NFL. Admittedly, the Giants are not a 100-loss team, but they are not a contender either and shouldn't be judged as if they are.
On a related note, if there is one thing this season is demonstrating it is the folly of expanding the Wild Card from 2 teams to 3. There simply are not 3 teams worthy of Wild Card opportunity in either league. If they didn't expand the WC, the Giants would be 5 GB of the Padres for the #2 spot, and everyone would know they are selling. Instead, they are 2 GB for the #3 WC spot, and likely fooling themselves they are a marginal player or two away from nabbing the #3 WC spot, in denial they are too flawed to pose any playoff threat should they miraculously earn the #6 seed.
Actually this shows MLB’s wisdom in expanding. More teams in race means more interest in more cities come September.
All of the teams competing for WC are flawed. Giants probably more so. But they can help themselves with incremental pickups - a left handed reliever and perhaps a MIF or outfielder that can add some defense/ athleticism.
Part of the defensive issue is speed (lack thereof) showing lack of range. Part is playing people out of position. Sometimes out of necessity. Mercedes is an obvious example. He’d played OF once ot twice pre-SF. Kapler should only be using him as DH and perhaps 1B as he has played there some. Pederson is limited defensively, as he’s slow. But he at least takes decent routes and is an actual OF.
Kapler gives lip service to defense. But when you plug a guy like Mercedes in left so you can get Austin Wynns’ “bat” into the game, you show your true colors. Were I a pitcher I wouldn’t be too happy about it.
Finally, were Giants to sneak in Webb and Rodon at top of rotation could pose trouble. Stuff happens in playoffs. Get in and take your chances. Giants were lowest rated team in ‘14 playoffs. In either league. That one worked out pretty well….
Your points are certainly valid about the business reasons for playoff expansion.
As for the '22 Giants, MLB being a game driven by doing what the odds say is most likely, lends itself to it being silly to expend resources building onto a structure with a flimsy foundation vs. investing them into a new one with a more solid foundation. The 2014 Giants had a solid foundation.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 07-26-2022
(07-25-2022, 08:34 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-25-2022, 07:08 AM)lex24 Wrote:(07-25-2022, 04:26 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-24-2022, 07:18 PM)lex24 Wrote:(07-24-2022, 05:01 PM)Giants Wrote: He has earned the right to finish out the year. I suspect he will call it a career after this season. Regardless, it is his last with SF.
Following this season, I would wish Belt the best as well. That would leave Crawford as the last man standing from the bunch that won multi-championships.
Agree. Giants get swept by the evil machine and still are only a game out of 6th.
Today is on Kapler. He plays lip service to defense, but doesn’t truly value. Platoons. Puts Mercedes in left, DH Wynn. If he puts Pederson in left and Mercedes DH, maybe they don’t lose. Pederson easily catches that ball. Mercedes isn’t an outfielder. Which he showed. Why Wynn? Just because he’s a righty and they are facing Kershaw. He’s not a threat. He’s not a good hitter. Just a poor managerial decision. Managing by computer only takes you so far.
Defense is KILLING this team. Yet, Mercedes in left……
How would you re-arrange who is sitting in what deck chairs? This is like complaining about the play calling when your team has the worst roster in the NFL. Admittedly, the Giants are not a 100-loss team, but they are not a contender either and shouldn't be judged as if they are.
On a related note, if there is one thing this season is demonstrating it is the folly of expanding the Wild Card from 2 teams to 3. There simply are not 3 teams worthy of Wild Card opportunity in either league. If they didn't expand the WC, the Giants would be 5 GB of the Padres for the #2 spot, and everyone would know they are selling. Instead, they are 2 GB for the #3 WC spot, and likely fooling themselves they are a marginal player or two away from nabbing the #3 WC spot, in denial they are too flawed to pose any playoff threat should they miraculously earn the #6 seed.
Actually this shows MLB’s wisdom in expanding. More teams in race means more interest in more cities come September.
All of the teams competing for WC are flawed. Giants probably more so. But they can help themselves with incremental pickups - a left handed reliever and perhaps a MIF or outfielder that can add some defense/ athleticism.
Part of the defensive issue is speed (lack thereof) showing lack of range. Part is playing people out of position. Sometimes out of necessity. Mercedes is an obvious example. He’d played OF once ot twice pre-SF. Kapler should only be using him as DH and perhaps 1B as he has played there some. Pederson is limited defensively, as he’s slow. But he at least takes decent routes and is an actual OF.
Kapler gives lip service to defense. But when you plug a guy like Mercedes in left so you can get Austin Wynns’ “bat” into the game, you show your true colors. Were I a pitcher I wouldn’t be too happy about it.
Finally, were Giants to sneak in Webb and Rodon at top of rotation could pose trouble. Stuff happens in playoffs. Get in and take your chances. Giants were lowest rated team in ‘14 playoffs. In either league. That one worked out pretty well….
Your points are certainly valid about the business reasons for playoff expansion.
As for the '22 Giants, MLB being a game driven by doing what the odds say is most likely, lends itself to it being silly to expend resources building onto a structure with a flimsy foundation vs. investing them into a new one with a more solid foundation. The 2014 Giants had a solid foundation.
Zaidi isn’t dumb. If he “buys” (and unless they turn it around fast that’s increasingly unlikely) it will be incremental pickups where he gives up little by way of prospects.
My hope is that this ends the absurd notion that you can out process teams. Giants failed in ‘22 FA market. (How much would Marte and Story mean to this team?). They will have even more money available in ‘23, with Longo being bought out, Belts 18 million and Rodon’s 24 million off the books. If they don’t hit the ‘23 market hard. Then we have our answer about ownership.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - OutsiderFan - 07-26-2022
After watching the YouTube clips of the Giants sleep walking through a 7-0 defeat in Arizona, I have a theory about what is going on with the team right now. It's based on comments I've seen from fans and my own dot connecting.
As the 2021 team stayed a little bit healthier, the platoon and match-up approach worked well. The team was winning, and that made guys who wanted to play more, buy in to the team concept. It didn't hurt to have Buster Posey being OK with missing every third game of the season, even when he was producing, to set the tone.
The 2022 team has followed a similar approach, but has been injured much more, hasn't won as much, and the best producers probably aren't OK with splitting time with others when the team isn't winning. My theory is the players are a bunch of individuals now, with so many in the last year of their deals, they worry about putting up numbers for their next contact more if they aren't winning. IOW, the Giants aren't a strong team with trust for each other as much as looking out for themselves. At this time of year everyone also has to be worried about being traded, and released if trades for other players are made.
Luis Gonzalez was the first Giant to get on base in the 6th inning, with a double, and he promptly gets picked off second base. A perfect metaphor for the season.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Mick - 07-26-2022
(07-26-2022, 08:13 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: After watching the YouTube clips of the Giants sleep walking through a 7-0 defeat in Arizona, I have a theory about what is going on with the team right now. It's based on comments I've seen from fans and my own dot connecting.
As the 2021 team stayed a little bit healthier, the platoon and match-up approach worked well. The team was winning, and that made guys who wanted to play more, buy in to the team concept. It didn't hurt to have Buster Posey being OK with missing every third game of the season, even when he was producing, to set the tone.
The 2022 team has followed a similar approach, but has been injured much more, hasn't won as much, and the best producers probably aren't OK with splitting time with others when the team isn't winning. My theory is the players are a bunch of individuals now, with so many in the last year of their deals, they worry about putting up numbers for their next contact more if they aren't winning. IOW, the Giants aren't a strong team with trust for each other as much as looking out for themselves. At this time of year everyone also has to be worried about being traded, and released if trades for other players are made.
Luis Gonzalez was the first Giant to get on base in the 6th inning, with a double, and he promptly gets picked off second base. A perfect metaphor for the season.
Yes, Belt complained mildly (but publicly) about not being left in a few days ago.
https://theathletic.com/3443882/2022/07/23/giants-brandon-belt-pinch-hit-decisions/
RE: 2022 Giants thread - OutsiderFan - 07-26-2022
(07-26-2022, 11:17 AM)Mick Wrote:(07-26-2022, 08:13 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: After watching the YouTube clips of the Giants sleep walking through a 7-0 defeat in Arizona, I have a theory about what is going on with the team right now. It's based on comments I've seen from fans and my own dot connecting.
As the 2021 team stayed a little bit healthier, the platoon and match-up approach worked well. The team was winning, and that made guys who wanted to play more, buy in to the team concept. It didn't hurt to have Buster Posey being OK with missing every third game of the season, even when he was producing, to set the tone.
The 2022 team has followed a similar approach, but has been injured much more, hasn't won as much, and the best producers probably aren't OK with splitting time with others when the team isn't winning. My theory is the players are a bunch of individuals now, with so many in the last year of their deals, they worry about putting up numbers for their next contact more if they aren't winning. IOW, the Giants aren't a strong team with trust for each other as much as looking out for themselves. At this time of year everyone also has to be worried about being traded, and released if trades for other players are made.
Luis Gonzalez was the first Giant to get on base in the 6th inning, with a double, and he promptly gets picked off second base. A perfect metaphor for the season.
Yes, Belt complained mildly (but publicly) about not being left in a few days ago.
https://theathletic.com/3443882/2022/07/23/giants-brandon-belt-pinch-hit-decisions/
Not exactly Captain-like or Buster Posey setting the team-first example.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Mick - 07-26-2022
(07-26-2022, 11:34 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:17 AM)Mick Wrote:(07-26-2022, 08:13 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: After watching the YouTube clips of the Giants sleep walking through a 7-0 defeat in Arizona, I have a theory about what is going on with the team right now. It's based on comments I've seen from fans and my own dot connecting.
As the 2021 team stayed a little bit healthier, the platoon and match-up approach worked well. The team was winning, and that made guys who wanted to play more, buy in to the team concept. It didn't hurt to have Buster Posey being OK with missing every third game of the season, even when he was producing, to set the tone.
The 2022 team has followed a similar approach, but has been injured much more, hasn't won as much, and the best producers probably aren't OK with splitting time with others when the team isn't winning. My theory is the players are a bunch of individuals now, with so many in the last year of their deals, they worry about putting up numbers for their next contact more if they aren't winning. IOW, the Giants aren't a strong team with trust for each other as much as looking out for themselves. At this time of year everyone also has to be worried about being traded, and released if trades for other players are made.
Luis Gonzalez was the first Giant to get on base in the 6th inning, with a double, and he promptly gets picked off second base. A perfect metaphor for the season.
Yes, Belt complained mildly (but publicly) about not being left in a few days ago.
https://theathletic.com/3443882/2022/07/23/giants-brandon-belt-pinch-hit-decisions/
Not exactly Captain-like or Buster Posey setting the team-first example.
Nope. But he's a fake captain...
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 07-26-2022
Baseball is the one sport where I can watch two bad teams of whom I have no interest in play a game for the ages. The games within the game are why I watch.
Of course boyz, it ain't over til it's over. But... a Dodgers-Mets series providing Buehler and DrGrom can pitch would be fascinating.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 07-26-2022
(07-26-2022, 11:36 AM)Mick Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:34 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:17 AM)Mick Wrote:(07-26-2022, 08:13 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: After watching the YouTube clips of the Giants sleep walking through a 7-0 defeat in Arizona, I have a theory about what is going on with the team right now. It's based on comments I've seen from fans and my own dot connecting.
As the 2021 team stayed a little bit healthier, the platoon and match-up approach worked well. The team was winning, and that made guys who wanted to play more, buy in to the team concept. It didn't hurt to have Buster Posey being OK with missing every third game of the season, even when he was producing, to set the tone.
The 2022 team has followed a similar approach, but has been injured much more, hasn't won as much, and the best producers probably aren't OK with splitting time with others when the team isn't winning. My theory is the players are a bunch of individuals now, with so many in the last year of their deals, they worry about putting up numbers for their next contact more if they aren't winning. IOW, the Giants aren't a strong team with trust for each other as much as looking out for themselves. At this time of year everyone also has to be worried about being traded, and released if trades for other players are made.
Luis Gonzalez was the first Giant to get on base in the 6th inning, with a double, and he promptly gets picked off second base. A perfect metaphor for the season.
Yes, Belt complained mildly (but publicly) about not being left in a few days ago.
https://theathletic.com/3443882/2022/07/23/giants-brandon-belt-pinch-hit-decisions/
Not exactly Captain-like or Buster Posey setting the team-first example.
Nope. But he's a fake captain...
Belt was right.
My Soto trade:
Luciano, Gonzalez, Estrada Matos Bednar and Rodon.
For Soto and Corbin.
Nats then trade Rodon for a couple major league ready prospects.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Phogge - 07-26-2022
I’d go with Rodan, Godzilla and Mothra.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Giants - 07-26-2022
(07-26-2022, 06:04 PM)lex24 Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:36 AM)Mick Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:34 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:17 AM)Mick Wrote:(07-26-2022, 08:13 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: After watching the YouTube clips of the Giants sleep walking through a 7-0 defeat in Arizona, I have a theory about what is going on with the team right now. It's based on comments I've seen from fans and my own dot connecting.
As the 2021 team stayed a little bit healthier, the platoon and match-up approach worked well. The team was winning, and that made guys who wanted to play more, buy in to the team concept. It didn't hurt to have Buster Posey being OK with missing every third game of the season, even when he was producing, to set the tone.
The 2022 team has followed a similar approach, but has been injured much more, hasn't won as much, and the best producers probably aren't OK with splitting time with others when the team isn't winning. My theory is the players are a bunch of individuals now, with so many in the last year of their deals, they worry about putting up numbers for their next contact more if they aren't winning. IOW, the Giants aren't a strong team with trust for each other as much as looking out for themselves. At this time of year everyone also has to be worried about being traded, and released if trades for other players are made.
Luis Gonzalez was the first Giant to get on base in the 6th inning, with a double, and he promptly gets picked off second base. A perfect metaphor for the season.
Yes, Belt complained mildly (but publicly) about not being left in a few days ago.
https://theathletic.com/3443882/2022/07/23/giants-brandon-belt-pinch-hit-decisions/
Not exactly Captain-like or Buster Posey setting the team-first example.
Nope. But he's a fake captain...
Belt was right.
My Soto trade:
Luciano, Gonzalez, Estrada Matos Bednar and Rodon.
For Soto and Corbin.
Nats then trade Rodon for a couple major league ready prospects.
Putting on my Nats GM hat, after snickering quietly, I would say no Harrison/Luciano (among a host of others), no deal. Gotta go, I have the Padres on the other line…..
Putting on my Zaidi hat, I would quietly say, thanks for taking my call, see you at the next leadership meeting.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - old spanish trail - 07-27-2022
They look awfully dispirited.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 07-27-2022
(07-26-2022, 11:16 PM)Giants Wrote:(07-26-2022, 06:04 PM)lex24 Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:36 AM)Mick Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:34 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(07-26-2022, 11:17 AM)Mick Wrote: Yes, Belt complained mildly (but publicly) about not being left in a few days ago.
https://theathletic.com/3443882/2022/07/23/giants-brandon-belt-pinch-hit-decisions/
Not exactly Captain-like or Buster Posey setting the team-first example.
Nope. But he's a fake captain...
Belt was right.
My Soto trade:
Luciano, Gonzalez, Estrada Matos Bednar and Rodon.
For Soto and Corbin.
Nats then trade Rodon for a couple major league ready prospects.
Putting on my Nats GM hat, after snickering quietly, I would say no Harrison/Luciano (among a host of others), no deal. Gotta go, I have the Padres on the other line…..
Putting on my Zaidi hat, I would quietly say, thanks for taking my call, see you at the next leadership meeting.
Yeah, I know it has no chance. But given where they are now, I’d rather include Rodon than Harrison. (Pads chancres might have taken a hit with Gore having an elbow issue,)
I think we saw Rodon’s last game as a Giant last night. We also saw another interesting Kapler moment. 2 on in 5th. 2 outs. Mercedes up vs Weaver, a right hander. Pederson on bench. Snakes have a lefty ready in the pen. He sticks with Mercedes. Clearly a metric decision as the lefty in the pen is tougher on lefties than Weaver is on righties. But I’m thinking - yeah I know the splits. But one guy - Pederson - leads my team in HRs (including 2 vs lefties) and is an established major leaguer. The other was picked up off the scrap heap and hadn’t shown a hell of a lot. In other words - I’m going with my better player - splits be damned. We’re it Slater or Ruf, different story. But it wasn’t.
Similar to the unbelievable (in my mind) decision to PH Villar for Belt late in a key moment vs Dodgers.
Managing is more than consulting the computer. Giants platoons aren’t what they were last year.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Giants - 07-27-2022
I think your last sentence says it all. Last year, every move resulted in gold. This year, every move results in lead.
IMO, it isn’t so much the moves Kapler is making as much as it is the talent he has to make those moves.
As has been said by many, the Giants are old, slow and can’t make defensive plays. Given an injection of youth and talent, I think the team and, by extension, Kapler would look a heck of a lot better.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 07-27-2022
[quote="Giants" pid='358967' dateline='1658933656']
I think your last sentence says it all. Last year, every move resulted in gold. This year, every move results in lead.
IMO, it isn’t so much the moves Kapler is making as much as it is the talent he has to make those moves.”
But therein lies my point. It’s one thing to be platooning Pederson with Ruf or Slater. Or PH for Belt with Ruf or Slater. It’s quite a different thing to be doing so with Mercedes and Villar. A good manager recognizes that difference. No matter what the computer says.
If I’m Kapler at this point I’m scraping the platoons. If gonna put the best 9 I got out there between now and July 31. That’s 5 games. Unless Giants get on a roll and win at least 4, it’s sell time. Maybe it is even if they get hot between now and Aug2. But he owes it to the core of this team to go with his vets. If the ship sinks, it shouldn’t be full of plebes.
Not a batting order, just who should be out there.
Slater/Gonzo CF/Rf
Ruf 1B/DH
Pederson LF
Belt. 1B/DH
Estrada SS.
Flores. 3B
Yaz. RF/CF
La Stella. 2B (Crawford not back, Villar has shown nothing)
Someone has to catch
Gonzo can replace Slater vs tough righties. Maybe play left versus tough lefties. Wade off bench for a PH vs a right hander.
The vets have earned the right to decide if the second half is playing quasi-meaningful games; or If they face being traded or suffer through a fire sale.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - old spanish trail - 07-27-2022
Agree, Lex.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - old spanish trail - 07-27-2022
I'm so glad La Stella is back. And, did Slater make wrong throw again? Belt in molasses.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - lex24 - 07-27-2022
“Gentlemen, have we got a sale for you!” I wonder what they can get for Rodon. Adding a top end starter to your rotation is a big deal. Giants have to get at least one major league ready player in the package.
Wonder if Cards would deal Edman?
RE: 2022 Giants thread - cardcrimson - 07-27-2022
(07-27-2022, 03:54 PM)old spanish trail Wrote: I'm so glad La Stella is back. And, did Slater make wrong throw again? Belt in molasses.Two runs score on a sac bunt and Belt's throwing error to the plate. Ugh.
Question, why are both of those runs considered earned? I can see the first one, but certainly not the second one.
RE: 2022 Giants thread - Giants - 07-27-2022
(07-27-2022, 04:40 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(07-27-2022, 03:54 PM)old spanish trail Wrote: I'm so glad La Stella is back. And, did Slater make wrong throw again? Belt in molasses.Two runs score on a sac bunt and Belt's throwing error to the plate. Ugh.
Question, why are both of those runs considered earned? I can see the first one, but certainly not the second one.
1) You can never assume a runner will be out on a fielder’s choice/sacrifice. Therefore, the first run is considered earned whether Belt makes a good or bad throw home (as long as the runner is safe at home).
2) Next, whether the trail runner stops at third or scores on the errant throw, his run is considered earned because the next batter hit an HR. Therefore, he would have scored even if he did not attempt to reach home base on the errant throw.