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WBB: Stanford 96 -- Indiana 64 - Printable Version

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WBB: Stanford 96 -- Indiana 64 - 81alum - 11-09-2023

Preview: 

#9 Indiana comes to Maples for our first major test of the year.  The game will be carried on ESPN.  For people attending, a chalk talk will precede it.

Last year Indiana was 28-4, but three of those losses came heading into and during tournament season.  Indiana spent much of the year near the top of the rankings, but the finish did not meet most expectations.

We have some Cardboarders who follow Indiana WBB carefully, so hopefully we will hear more directly from them.  But you cannot talk about Indiana without discussing MacKenzie Holmes.  Holmes is regularly touted as one of the best players in the country. She is a 6'3" 5th year forward. Last year she averaged 22 points on 68% shooting, and the Indiana offense focuses on feeding her the ball, and tonight she was her usual self with 19 points in 19 minutes. 

Indiana graduated the outstanding Grace Berger, but all their other starters are back.  They include 6'2" senior guard Sydney Parrish, who averaged 12 points, 6'3" sophomore guard Yarden Garzon who averaged 11 points, and 6'2" senior guard Chloe Moore-McNeil who averaged 10 points.  The first player off the bench was Sara Scalia, who is a 5'10" senior guard.  Notice the height of this team, and also notice that every single starter regularly scored in double digits.  While Holmes is the centerpiece, all their positions are capable of scoring.  And finally, notice the level of experience--only  Garzon is not a senior.

Indiana mercilessly punishes those who double team Holmes.  Garzon shot 70 treys last year at 46%--that is a higher percent than our Jump.  But there were also 4 other Indiana players shooting better than 33% from three point range, several of them in some quantity.

In tonight's game the starters were Holmes, Scalia, Garzon, Moore-McNeil and Parrish. They played about half the game in the blowout win against Eastern Illinois.  The non starter worth noting was Lexus Bargesser, a 5'9" sophomore guard who came off the bench for 15 points.  Scalia was hot from three point range at 3/5 but the team did a lot of damage inside, where Holmes was 9/10.

And in a shocking stat that should get the attention of our defense:  Indiana shot 65% from the floor tonight.  In our blowout over Hawaii we shot 48%.  65%, sheesh.  But Indiana was only 2/11 shooting free throws.  What?

To have a chance to defeat Indiana, Brink and Iriafen are going to have to have a superb night limiting Holmes inside, and our perimeter players are not going to be able to help very much lest Holmes just pass the ball back to a three point sharpshooter.   Last year, no one really could shut down the Indiana offense, but in the four games they lost, their opponents generally scored in the 80s, except for their inexplicable final loss to Miami 68-70.  Our offense will need to have a very good night.

Indiana has a significant experience advantage, particularly at guard, and most of their guards are tall guards.  That worries me a little.    In addition, I really hope that Brink is fully healthy and ready for Holmes.  I think Jump can more than adequately defend the Indiana guards on the perimeter, and I doubt that Indiana will press us.  But the way our offense has been playing, we may be able to put up a lot of points, too.  Could be a fun game to watch.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - 81alum - 11-09-2023

Here are some highlights from tonight's Indiana vs. Eastern Illinois game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN-6QoFQ0xI

And in case anyone wants to watch the classic from last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wou5o8WNcrM

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - BobK - 11-10-2023

Great to have you back 81 for our half time discussion

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - SkiBum80 - 11-10-2023

My close HS friend ended up going to Indiana.
We compare notes and have speculated which football team has floundered more recently, his or mine.
He hasn't had a lot of great IU teams to root for as an alumnus lately, but WBB is one of em.
I dunno whether to make a gentleman's bet with him on this game or not.
Can anyone guarantee our guards show up to play?!

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - OCcardinal - 11-10-2023

(11-09-2023, 09:05 PM)81alum Wrote:  And in a shocking stat that should get the attention of our defense:  Indiana shot 65% from the floor tonight.  In our blowout over Hawaii we shot 48%.  65%, sheesh.  But Indiana was only 2/11 shooting free throws.  What?

To have a chance to defeat Indiana, Brink and Iriafen are going to have to have a superb night limiting Holmes inside,
Yep, all 9 of McKenzie Holmes' field goals vs Eastern Illinois were layups (making 9 of 10).  She shouldn't have as easy of a path to the basket vs Stanford. Brink had 5 blocks vs Indiana when we beat them 2 years ago and Holmes shot 3-12.  Hopefully Brink is 100% healthy and can do her thing. Brink played a surprising 32 minutes vs Indiana 2 years ago, finishing with 21 points, 22 rebounds and only 2 fouls.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - MV72018 - 11-10-2023

(11-10-2023, 10:44 AM)OCcardinal Wrote:  
(11-09-2023, 09:05 PM)81alum Wrote:  And in a shocking stat that should get the attention of our defense:  Indiana shot 65% from the floor tonight.  In our blowout over Hawaii we shot 48%.  65%, sheesh.  But Indiana was only 2/11 shooting free throws.  What?

To have a chance to defeat Indiana, Brink and Iriafen are going to have to have a superb night limiting Holmes inside,
Yep, all 9 of McKenzie Holmes' field goals vs Eastern Illinois were layups (making 9 of 10).  She shouldn't have as easy of a path to the basket vs Stanford. Brink had 5 blocks vs Indiana when we beat them 2 years ago and Holmes shot 3-12.  Hopefully Brink is 100% healthy and can do her thing.  Brink played a surprising 32 minutes vs Indiana 2 years ago, finishing with 21 points, 22 rebounds and only 2 fouls.

Re Sunday’s game, let’s see whether Tara has changed last year’s boring and ineffective O approach or, more likely, in spite of all the talk about change, it’s the same old approach of hoisting threes (at a dismal 20-30% success rate), almost no drives to the hoop with finishes or dishes, and dumping it to Brink for tough layups or ill-advised mid-range jumpers or outside shots.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - bl82 - 11-10-2023

Tara has clearly been trending towards only threes and layups in the past few years, but when you have players like Kiki, Brooke, perhaps Cam and Nunu as well as Talana and Chloe -- all of whom appear to be quite proficient in the mid-range game -- then perhaps you need to rethink the offense a bit. Another way of looking at it is that against a quick and well-schooled defense, those open threes and easy cuts to the basket typically disappear, so we need other types of ways to create good shots.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - OCcardinal - 11-10-2023

I noticed a nice diversity in scoring for a few of the players:

Nunu
Iriafen
Demetre
Jump (though wish she'd scored more)
And I like that Ogden hit a fast break layup, a jumper and a three.  3-3 and all no doubters.  Hopefully fouls won't disrupt her again next game and she'll get more scoring opportunities.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - M T - 11-10-2023

(11-10-2023, 11:11 AM)MV72018 Wrote:  ...let’s see whether Tara has changed last year’s boring and ineffective O approach or, more likely, in spite of all the talk about change, it’s the same old approach of hoisting threes (at a dismal 20-30% success rate), almost no drives to the hoop with finishes or dishes, and dumping it to Brink for tough layups or ill-advised mid-range jumpers or outside shots.

Maybe you want to find an exciting, losing coach to go cheer for?

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - 81alum - 11-10-2023

(11-10-2023, 11:43 AM)OCcardinal Wrote:  I noticed a nice diversity in scoring for a few of the players:

Nunu
  • 5 layups (2 driving)
  • 1 jumper
  • 8 free throws sunk (2 on a foul she drew on a fast break after a turnover)

Iriafen
  • 6 layups (2 driving, 3 second chance)
  • 3 jumpers
  • 3 free throws sunk

Demetre
  • 2 jumpers
  • 1 layup
  • 1 three
  • 2 free throws sunk

Jump (though wish she'd scored more)
  • 1 layup (driving)
  • 2 jumpers
  • 1 three

And I like that Ogden hit a fast break layup, a jumper and a three.  3-3 and all no doubters.  Hopefully fouls won't disrupt her again next game and she'll get more scoring opportunities.
So far the offense has been very diverse and exciting.  Jump's own development into a player who effectively shoots midrange jumpers and teardrops is an illustration of the improvement.  But we have not played against any kind of challenge yet, so it is too soon to say whether the changes we have seen thus far are really substantial and will be sustained against a good defense. 

Can't stress enough how experienced Indiana is.  We have Brink and Jump at that level.  Hopefully the home court advantage helps our youngsters feel more comfortable matching up against a bigger, older team.  Lepolo is going to look undersized against the five Indiana guards over 6', but maybe she can be quicker, or maybe she can stay on 5'10" Scalia with only a 3" deficit.  Bosgana and Jump are going to get a lot of work guarding three point sharpshooters of similar size.  At least Indiana does not seem to have those short, quick, speedy Rori Harmon/ Aari McDonald / Jaylyn Sherrod  type guards that have given us so much trouble in the past.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - MV72018 - 11-10-2023

(11-10-2023, 12:26 PM)M T Wrote:  
(11-10-2023, 11:11 AM)MV72018 Wrote:  ...let’s see whether Tara has changed last year’s boring and ineffective O approach or, more likely, in spite of all the talk about change, it’s the same old approach of hoisting threes (at a dismal 20-30% success rate), almost no drives to the hoop with finishes or dishes, and dumping it to Brink for tough layups or ill-advised mid-range jumpers or outside shots.

Maybe you want to find an exciting, losing coach to go cheer for?

Translation: 'Tara has won a lot at Stanford, therefore she should be immune from criticism.' That classic mentality clearly still exists on this board. But after last year's disappointments it was encouraging to see that many of the board's most thoughtful and sophisticated posters recognized that there was a need for significant change in Stanford's O scheme. As for M T's masterpiece of sarcasm. I'd prefer to see Tara be flexible enough to make needed changes in the O scheme and realize even greater success as a result of doing so.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - M T - 11-10-2023

(11-10-2023, 01:44 PM)MV72018 Wrote:  
(11-10-2023, 12:26 PM)M T Wrote:  
(11-10-2023, 11:11 AM)MV72018 Wrote:  ...let’s see whether Tara has changed last year’s boring and ineffective O approach or, more likely, in spite of all the talk about change, it’s the same old approach of hoisting threes (at a dismal 20-30% success rate), almost no drives to the hoop with finishes or dishes, and dumping it to Brink for tough layups or ill-advised mid-range jumpers or outside shots.

Maybe you want to find an exciting, losing coach to go cheer for?

Translation: 'Tara has won a lot at Stanford, therefore she should be immune from criticism.' That classic mentality clearly still exists on this board. But after last year's disappointments it was encouraging to see that many of the board's most thoughtful and sophisticated posters recognized that there was a need for significant change in Stanford's O scheme. As for M T's masterpiece of sarcasm. I'd prefer to see Tara be flexible enough to make needed changes in the O scheme and realize even greater success as a result of doing so.

If you hold yourself as having better knowledge of the game and her players, then maybe you actually don't know that Tara is well known for her flexibility and innovation to go with what works for her players.  That's how she's been successful for decades.  

Yes, last year was an off year for the team, finishing 4th in the polls, with the 6th most wins, with what you characterize as a boring and ineffective offense.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - CompSci87 - 11-10-2023

I recall hearing that last year Tara used a simplified offense so that the freshmen could get up to speed quickly. I'm sure there will be more to it this year.

Can we all be polite to each other even as we disagree or criticize?

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - BobK - 11-10-2023

Very very hard to be polite with some right now but thank you compsci

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - mbdude - 11-10-2023

Watched quite a few Indiana games last year on Big10 network. Fun to watch.
 Really like Holmes, runs court well, great foot work and moves, disciplined. Outplayed bigger posts.
As mentioned above all the guards shoot well from distance. Sydney Parrish, Oregon transfer,  is no longer just a 3point shooter. Tough, hardworking defender and rebounder. Really upped her game. Still tanned.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - spike5882 - 11-10-2023

(11-10-2023, 04:44 PM)mbdude Wrote:  Watched quite a few Indiana games last year on Big10 network. Fun to watch.
 Really like Holmes, runs court well, great foot work and moves, disciplined. Outplayed bigger posts.
As mentioned above all the guards shoot well from distance. Sydney Parrish, Oregon transfer,  is no longer just a 3point shooter. Tough, hardworking defender and rebounder. Really upped her game. Still tanned.


Lol to the still tanned comment.  She’s originally from Indiana, so I think that will always be the case.  Having grown up there myself (and migrated to CA for Stanford), it’s rather common to be tan there.  I’d venture to say half my high school went to tanning salons (this was 25 years ago!) and FL beaches were the dream vacation destination.  Looking back, I find it comical but it seems like it’s a trend that still exists.  Why? I’m not so sure.

I’m excited for the Indiana game and see how Stanford stacks up this year.  There are a lot of question marks still but also a lot of potential.  I think this game will be a good indicator of where we currently are at. While a great player and a great person, I personally am enjoying the team sans Jones.  It’s exciting to see others being able to show their abilities!

Also, a bit of a novel idea here— maybe we can try to make it through a season without tearing people apart who have differing opinions about Tara. I’m pretty sure we all understand the definition of opinion, and everybody should be entitled to theirs.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - TheFarm07 - 11-10-2023

(11-10-2023, 06:05 PM)spike5882 Wrote:  Also, a bit of a novel idea here— maybe we can try to make it through a season without tearing people apart who have differing opinions about Tara.  I’m pretty sure we all understand the definition of opinion, and everybody should be entitled to theirs.

Just my two cents here, for those who have criticisms of Tara, I think it would be best to limit or focus your critique on specific aspects of your disagreements ("She should have diversified the offense rather than just relied on getting the ball inside to Brink or trying for 3-pointers"), rather than broad, unfounded generalizations: "Tara is a bad coach," "Tara should retire," etc. I think her track record and her place as the winningiest women's basketball coach should outweigh that.

Conversely, I think those who defend Tara should realize, that even as a HoF coach, she is not infallible. There are those who disagree with her strategy, recruiting style, etc. Just because fans are frustrated with her, for example on how last season went, it shouldn't been seen as a dismissal of her accomplishments. Fans can be fickle and demanding. In large part, I find this forum a lot more patient than other sports fan communities I am a member of.

Personally, while I am grateful for what she has done for the women's basketball program and Stanford in general, I also have my issues with certain aspects of her recruiting/coaching philosophy. It doesn't mean that I don't appreciate or respect her incredible achievements or that I don't recognize how difficult it is to be a D1 athletics coach.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - spike5882 - 11-11-2023

(11-10-2023, 07:16 PM)TheFarm07 Wrote:  
(11-10-2023, 06:05 PM)spike5882 Wrote:  Also, a bit of a novel idea here— maybe we can try to make it through a season without tearing people apart who have differing opinions about Tara.  I’m pretty sure we all understand the definition of opinion, and everybody should be entitled to theirs.

Just my two cents here, for those who have criticisms of Tara, I think it would be best to limit or focus your critique on specific aspects of your disagreements ("She should have diversified the offense rather than just relied on getting the ball inside to Brink or trying for 3-pointers"), rather than broad, unfounded generalizations: "Tara is a bad coach," "Tara should retire," etc. I think her track record and her place as the winningiest women's basketball coach should outweigh that.

Conversely, I think those who defend Tara should realize, that even as a HoF coach, she is not infallible. There are those who disagree with her strategy, recruiting style, etc. Just because fans are frustrated with her, for example on how last season went, it shouldn't been seen as a dismissal of her accomplishments. Fans can be fickle and demanding. In large part, I find this forum a lot more patient than other sports fan communities I am a member of.

Personally, while I am grateful for what she has done for the women's basketball program and Stanford in general, I also have my issues with certain aspects of her recruiting/coaching philosophy. It doesn't mean that I don't appreciate or respect her incredible achievements or that I don't recognize how difficult it is to be a D1 athletics coach.

Agree with all you said 100%!

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - 81alum - 11-11-2023

For those of you who have met Tara and seen her personality, you know that she is actually a fairly shy person and quite humble.   Shockingly so in this era.  She has always been willing to admit to mistakes, but I think she also balances the mea culpa confessional desire with the equally important desire to project confidence to potential recruits.  If you are thinking about going to play for Stanford, you don't want to see a coach that wrings her hands and publically discusses her failings.   That doesn't mean she is unaware of her mistakes, it means that she puts the good of the team over her own publicity.  Someone like Kelly Graves is nearly her opposite--he turns many pressers into confessionals.  In any case, Tara shares very little information with the press and with fans, preferring to make opponents and media guess about everything--even about things that seem obvious.  After having watched her for so many years, I can accurately write out what she is going to say at a post-game presser just by looking at the stat sheet.  She could turn it over to Chat GPT and it would be equally revealing in most cases. 

For many, this means  she is NOT an ideal coach for fans, being not very communicative, charismatic, or willing to reveal her own thought processes that led to failed decisions.  However, keeping us fans pleased is not really her job.  Winning basketball games is.   And you know what?  I prefer it this way.  She is the most anti-hype coach ever, I think, and the most focused on basketball.  Her love for the game is a constant.  

We here at the Cardboard have to manufacture our own controversies and our own hype because it won't come from her.  What I can emphatically say is that Tara is acutely aware of every limitation and every failure, and if problems don't get fixed it is not because she has not tried.  She is never coasting along unawares, or arrogantly ignoring problems, or even being out of touch with "a younger generation of basketball."  All that is nonsense.  While there may be problems, those are not among them.

When we point out problems and failings with Tara's teams--and there have been many--don't assume that Tara is unaware or unmotivated or unable to fix them.  Assume, rather, that Tara may be doing an excellent job within the parameters she has been dealt. 

Now, let's see about the parameters with taking a less experienced, smaller team against Indiana tomorrow.  I would love to see a bit of Tara's genius on display.  I would have to give odds that we will lose, but a win would go a long ways to restoring a little magic and belief around here.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Indiana 2pm Sunday - mbdude - 11-11-2023

nice 81