[BostonCard]

You are talking about a broad set of conditions that fall under the term “disorders in sex development”.  These include the examples you mention (Kleinfelter’s syndrome, which is XXY, and Turner’s syndrome, which is a single X chromosome), but also include a number of conditions which result in abnormal production or response to sex hormones.  One recent example in the news is the South African middle distance runner Caster Semenya:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-south...SKBN2602RM

She naturally produces more testosterone than a typical woman, and has been required to reduce her levels of testosterone.

BC

[BostonCard]

You are talking about a broad set of conditions that fall under the term “disorders in sex development”.  These include the examples you mention (Kleinfelter’s syndrome, which is XXY, and Turner’s syndrome, which is a single X chromosome), but also include a number of conditions which result in abnormal production or response to sex hormones.  One recent example in the news is the South African middle distance runner Caster Semenya:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-south...SKBN2602RM

She naturally produces more testosterone than a typical woman, and has been required to reduce her levels of testosterone.

BC

[DC 86]

She naturally produces more testosterone than a typical woman, and has been required to reduce her levels of testosterone.

BC

Isn't Caster Semenya XY? if she was XX with naturally high levels of testosterone there would be no issue.

[DC 86]

She naturally produces more testosterone than a typical woman, and has been required to reduce her levels of testosterone.

BC

Isn't Caster Semenya XY? if she was XX with naturally high levels of testosterone there would be no issue.

[BostonCard]

Yes, indeed; she has a Y chromosome.  However, her sex assigned at birth was female. The Y chromosome makes a difference for the IAAF, which restricts the testosterone only of 46XY DSD athletes (as upheld by the Court of Arbitration in Sport).

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_u...cision.pdf

I think there is somewhat of an over reliance on chromosomal determination of what someone’s sex is “supposed to be”.

BC

[BostonCard]

Yes, indeed; she has a Y chromosome.  However, her sex assigned at birth was female. The Y chromosome makes a difference for the IAAF, which restricts the testosterone only of 46XY DSD athletes (as upheld by the Court of Arbitration in Sport).

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_u...cision.pdf

I think there is somewhat of an over reliance on chromosomal determination of what someone’s sex is “supposed to be”.

BC

[DC 86]

Yes, indeed; she has a Y chromosome.  However, her sex assigned at birth was female. The Y chromosome makes a difference for the IAAF, which restricts the testosterone only of 46XY DSD athletes (as upheld by the Court of Arbitration in Sport).

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_u...cision.pdf

I think there is somewhat of an over reliance on chromosomal determination of what someone’s sex is “supposed to be”.

BC

I understand, I was just clarifying that naturally higher testosterone alone doesn't trigger the requirement to reduce testosterone levels in international competition.

[DC 86]

Yes, indeed; she has a Y chromosome.  However, her sex assigned at birth was female. The Y chromosome makes a difference for the IAAF, which restricts the testosterone only of 46XY DSD athletes (as upheld by the Court of Arbitration in Sport).

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_u...cision.pdf

I think there is somewhat of an over reliance on chromosomal determination of what someone’s sex is “supposed to be”.

BC

I understand, I was just clarifying that naturally higher testosterone alone doesn't trigger the requirement to reduce testosterone levels in international competition.

[TonyLima]

This new thread brings into focus one particular testosterone-advantaged individual versus one not-advantaged individual.
While it is a worthy topic, I would have encouraged it being a new post in that older thread, so we don't repeat the same discussions.

A lot of the first thread was conjecture and potential. It is now happening. A trans female is blowing a lot of cisgender women out of the water. Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.

Lia Thomas at Penn. Previously was on the men’s team. FWIW I vehemently oppose allowing men to compete in women’s sports regardless of how they label themselves.

[TonyLima]

This new thread brings into focus one particular testosterone-advantaged individual versus one not-advantaged individual.
While it is a worthy topic, I would have encouraged it being a new post in that older thread, so we don't repeat the same discussions.

A lot of the first thread was conjecture and potential. It is now happening. A trans female is blowing a lot of cisgender women out of the water. Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.

Lia Thomas at Penn. Previously was on the men’s team. FWIW I vehemently oppose allowing men to compete in women’s sports regardless of how they label themselves.

[PersonalLegend]

She naturally produces more testosterone than a typical woman, and has been required to reduce her levels of testosterone.

BC

Isn't Caster Semenya XY? if she was XX with naturally high levels of testosterone there would be no issue.

Semenya has testicles.  It’s an uncomfortable truth that gets masked under a lot of dissembling but there it is. In my opinion Women’s sports are most “fair” if they are restricted to people who neither have nor have ever had testicles. It’s frankly laughable that we are now at that point.  

Now, all the stuff about producing more testosterone etc?  If it’s natural, then you go, girl. In my opinion just because Andre the Giant had an overactive pituitary doesn’t disqualify him from squashing people on the mat. 

That’s very different from a woman who has or has had testicles claiming the right to compete in a division of sport that is expressly built based on excluding such phenotypes. 

Lex: the Jim Crow reference was to the mindset of a gracious loser making it all “ok,” not to the trans issue. Plenty of analogy there. Thanks for the comment though.

[PersonalLegend]

She naturally produces more testosterone than a typical woman, and has been required to reduce her levels of testosterone.

BC

Isn't Caster Semenya XY? if she was XX with naturally high levels of testosterone there would be no issue.

Semenya has testicles.  It’s an uncomfortable truth that gets masked under a lot of dissembling but there it is. In my opinion Women’s sports are most “fair” if they are restricted to people who neither have nor have ever had testicles. It’s frankly laughable that we are now at that point.  

Now, all the stuff about producing more testosterone etc?  If it’s natural, then you go, girl. In my opinion just because Andre the Giant had an overactive pituitary doesn’t disqualify him from squashing people on the mat. 

That’s very different from a woman who has or has had testicles claiming the right to compete in a division of sport that is expressly built based on excluding such phenotypes. 

Lex: the Jim Crow reference was to the mindset of a gracious loser making it all “ok,” not to the trans issue. Plenty of analogy there. Thanks for the comment though.

[Goose]

I started school at the normal age, but was skipped a grade, completing third and fourth grade in the same year.  My father-in-law had the same miserable experience.  We both started our senior year in high school as 16 year olds.  The disparity in maturity and capability between boys who are a year apart is beyond significant.  And we both agreed that if there were one decision in our lives we could have back, it would be that one, for all the obvious reasons.

I skipped fourth grade. While contra-factual speculation is obviously just that, I was always very glad I did skip fourth grade. I never felt being a year younger was an issue, probably because it never occurred to me. I was where I was and I needed to do what was required. Worst case was in 7th grade PE, where you had to run a mile under a certain time to pass the class. I did it with 30 seconds to spare. Then the coach remembered I was younger and they were only supposed to time me for 3/4 of a mile. There was a discussion that I now had to go run another 3/4 mile and get timed for that. I told the coach I had made the mile time and that should be good enough. He agreed. I was blissfully unaware that my parents worried about the fact I was younger all the way through high school until I was about 40 years old. Who knew?

[Goose]

I started school at the normal age, but was skipped a grade, completing third and fourth grade in the same year.  My father-in-law had the same miserable experience.  We both started our senior year in high school as 16 year olds.  The disparity in maturity and capability between boys who are a year apart is beyond significant.  And we both agreed that if there were one decision in our lives we could have back, it would be that one, for all the obvious reasons.

I skipped fourth grade. While contra-factual speculation is obviously just that, I was always very glad I did skip fourth grade. I never felt being a year younger was an issue, probably because it never occurred to me. I was where I was and I needed to do what was required. Worst case was in 7th grade PE, where you had to run a mile under a certain time to pass the class. I did it with 30 seconds to spare. Then the coach remembered I was younger and they were only supposed to time me for 3/4 of a mile. There was a discussion that I now had to go run another 3/4 mile and get timed for that. I told the coach I had made the mile time and that should be good enough. He agreed. I was blissfully unaware that my parents worried about the fact I was younger all the way through high school until I was about 40 years old. Who knew?

[teejers1]

This new thread brings into focus one particular testosterone-advantaged individual versus one not-advantaged individual.
While it is a worthy topic, I would have encouraged it being a new post in that older thread, so we don't repeat the same discussions.

A lot of the first thread was conjecture and potential. It is now happening. A trans female is blowing a lot of cisgender women out of the water. Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.

Lia Thomas at Penn. Previously was on the men’s team. FWIW I vehemently oppose allowing men to compete in women’s sports regardless of how they label themselves.

I'd venture to say that the overwhelming majority of cisgender females competing in their chosen sport resent having to compete against trans-genders for pretty obvious/basic fairness reasons.  I'd venture to say that the % opposing/resentful is even higher for the parents of those girls/young women.  

It cracks me up that all those people are unenlightened, close-minded, not seeing Big Picture, etc.  Probably because they're all focused on the "little thing" of working hard in their/their kids' chosen sport and hoping they are fairly rewarded for their hard work.

[teejers1]

This new thread brings into focus one particular testosterone-advantaged individual versus one not-advantaged individual.
While it is a worthy topic, I would have encouraged it being a new post in that older thread, so we don't repeat the same discussions.

A lot of the first thread was conjecture and potential. It is now happening. A trans female is blowing a lot of cisgender women out of the water. Apparently many of the cisgender women who have trained much of their lives aren't happy about it, but afraid to speak out in fear of being cancelled.

Lia Thomas at Penn. Previously was on the men’s team. FWIW I vehemently oppose allowing men to compete in women’s sports regardless of how they label themselves.

I'd venture to say that the overwhelming majority of cisgender females competing in their chosen sport resent having to compete against trans-genders for pretty obvious/basic fairness reasons.  I'd venture to say that the % opposing/resentful is even higher for the parents of those girls/young women.  

It cracks me up that all those people are unenlightened, close-minded, not seeing Big Picture, etc.  Probably because they're all focused on the "little thing" of working hard in their/their kids' chosen sport and hoping they are fairly rewarded for their hard work.

[bnarver]

You can't teach seven foot.
-- Frank Layton, Utah Jazz basketball coach, when asked why he had recruited a 7' tall auto mechanic

No matter how much hormone therapy a man goes through, I don't believe he's going to get shorter.  Therefore, I see a time when our future Olympic basketball team starting 5 could be composed of transgender 6'-10" or taller women.  Same for the women's volleyball team.  The current world record for women's the high jump is 2.09 m (6'-10.25") set in 1987.  I imagine that a tall transgender woman will easily break that.  I don't know how much a vaulter's height affects the pole vault, but the women's pole vault world record is 5.06 m (16'-7").  There are high school boys who are going higher than that. So, I see this record also falling to a transgender woman. I agree with the others on this board that state that this becomes a fairness issue.

[bnarver]

You can't teach seven foot.
-- Frank Layton, Utah Jazz basketball coach, when asked why he had recruited a 7' tall auto mechanic

No matter how much hormone therapy a man goes through, I don't believe he's going to get shorter.  Therefore, I see a time when our future Olympic basketball team starting 5 could be composed of transgender 6'-10" or taller women.  Same for the women's volleyball team.  The current world record for women's the high jump is 2.09 m (6'-10.25") set in 1987.  I imagine that a tall transgender woman will easily break that.  I don't know how much a vaulter's height affects the pole vault, but the women's pole vault world record is 5.06 m (16'-7").  There are high school boys who are going higher than that. So, I see this record also falling to a transgender woman. I agree with the others on this board that state that this becomes a fairness issue.

[oldalum]

USA swimming issues new policy, effective immediately: a three-person panel of independent medical experts will now decide whether "prior physical development of the athlete as a male" will give an unfair advantage over cisgender females.

The panel will also check that testosterone levels have been less than five nanomoles per liter for at least 36 months prior.

article

[oldalum]

USA swimming issues new policy, effective immediately: a three-person panel of independent medical experts will now decide whether "prior physical development of the athlete as a male" will give an unfair advantage over cisgender females.

The panel will also check that testosterone levels have been less than five nanomoles per liter for at least 36 months prior.

article

[needle]

USA swimming issues new policy, effective immediately: a three-person panel of independent medical experts will now decide whether "prior physical development of the athlete as a male" will give an unfair advantage over cisgender females.



The panel will also check that testosterone levels have been less than five nanomoles per liter for at least 36 months prior.



article

Here's a left-leaning take on the USA Swimming announcement, which I link mainly because it quotes Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde (apologies if these comments were posted earlier, as I didn't go back and look at all the posts in the thread).

One of Thomas’ competitors, Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde, said, “I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/us...ns-swimmer

[needle]

USA swimming issues new policy, effective immediately: a three-person panel of independent medical experts will now decide whether "prior physical development of the athlete as a male" will give an unfair advantage over cisgender females.



The panel will also check that testosterone levels have been less than five nanomoles per liter for at least 36 months prior.



article

Here's a left-leaning take on the USA Swimming announcement, which I link mainly because it quotes Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde (apologies if these comments were posted earlier, as I didn't go back and look at all the posts in the thread).

One of Thomas’ competitors, Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde, said, “I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/us...ns-swimmer

[M T]

For those that missed it, a couple of weeks ago, the NCAA indicated it would defer to the rules of the sports' governing bodies (such as USA Swimming).

The person that most of this news has been about was beaten in a 100yd race (coming in 6th, while winning the longer races) by another transgender person recently.

[M T]

For those that missed it, a couple of weeks ago, the NCAA indicated it would defer to the rules of the sports' governing bodies (such as USA Swimming).

The person that most of this news has been about was beaten in a 100yd race (coming in 6th, while winning the longer races) by another transgender person recently.

[cardbored]

In answer to the question, no, Ledecky's record should not be at risk. The division of men and women into distinct groups for purposes of athletic competition is to prevent the domination of all such competition by men. An eon of natural selection produced the heritable potential that provides male advantage; within each individual, each moment of maturation fosters expression of that potential. By age twelve, most males surpass most females in speed, strength, and power. Those advantages only become more pronounced as individuals progress into their competitive years.

Could the male advantage be reduced to female levels through hormone injections? I have never seen any evidence to support that notion and doubt such an outcome is feasible or would even be medically ethical.

On a related subject, I would like to have seen the RT video. I haven't needed a nanny for quite a few years or, as yet, lost my discerning mind. Nor have I seen evidence that propaganda is more at home on RT than it is on CNN.

[cardbored]

In answer to the question, no, Ledecky's record should not be at risk. The division of men and women into distinct groups for purposes of athletic competition is to prevent the domination of all such competition by men. An eon of natural selection produced the heritable potential that provides male advantage; within each individual, each moment of maturation fosters expression of that potential. By age twelve, most males surpass most females in speed, strength, and power. Those advantages only become more pronounced as individuals progress into their competitive years.

Could the male advantage be reduced to female levels through hormone injections? I have never seen any evidence to support that notion and doubt such an outcome is feasible or would even be medically ethical.

On a related subject, I would like to have seen the RT video. I haven't needed a nanny for quite a few years or, as yet, lost my discerning mind. Nor have I seen evidence that propaganda is more at home on RT than it is on CNN.

[BostonCard]

For those that missed it, a couple of weeks ago, the NCAA indicated it would defer to the rules of the sports' governing bodies (such as USA Swimming).

The person that most of this news has been about was beaten in a 100yd race (coming in 6th, while winning the longer races) by another transgender person recently.

Wait, if they came in sixth, weren’t they beaten by *five* other people?

BC

[BostonCard]

For those that missed it, a couple of weeks ago, the NCAA indicated it would defer to the rules of the sports' governing bodies (such as USA Swimming).

The person that most of this news has been about was beaten in a 100yd race (coming in 6th, while winning the longer races) by another transgender person recently.

Wait, if they came in sixth, weren’t they beaten by *five* other people?

BC

[Phogge]

What would Johnny Knoxville say about all this?

[Phogge]

What would Johnny Knoxville say about all this?

[teejers1]

For those that missed it, a couple of weeks ago, the NCAA indicated it would defer to the rules of the sports' governing bodies (such as USA Swimming).

The person that most of this news has been about was beaten in a 100yd race (coming in 6th, while winning the longer races) by another transgender person recently.

Wait, if they came in sixth, weren’t they beaten by *five* other people?

BC

Nevermind the parenthetical; or who won the race.

It's amazing that this is "an issue" at all.  
It's like The Great Bathroom Debate all over again - with about as much rational thinking behind both proponents.  Come to think of it, the logical (and even fairest) response is the same: build another bathroom/make another category of competitor if the numbers support it.

[teejers1]

For those that missed it, a couple of weeks ago, the NCAA indicated it would defer to the rules of the sports' governing bodies (such as USA Swimming).

The person that most of this news has been about was beaten in a 100yd race (coming in 6th, while winning the longer races) by another transgender person recently.

Wait, if they came in sixth, weren’t they beaten by *five* other people?

BC

Nevermind the parenthetical; or who won the race.

It's amazing that this is "an issue" at all.  
It's like The Great Bathroom Debate all over again - with about as much rational thinking behind both proponents.  Come to think of it, the logical (and even fairest) response is the same: build another bathroom/make another category of competitor if the numbers support it.

[JustAnotherFan]

One of Thomas’ competitors, Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde, said, “I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

Good for the Stanford swimmer to remind everyone of their humanity.

[JustAnotherFan]

One of Thomas’ competitors, Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde, said, “I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

Good for the Stanford swimmer to remind everyone of their humanity.

[DC 86]

For those that missed it, a couple of weeks ago, the NCAA indicated it would defer to the rules of the sports' governing bodies (such as USA Swimming).

Gail Dent, an NCAA spokesperson said yesterday that the NCAA is meeting at the end of February to "review the new U.S.A. Swimming policy" and that it was "uncertain" whether the new U.S.A. Swimming policy would be adopted in advance of the NCAA Championships (which start on March 16).

[DC 86]

For those that missed it, a couple of weeks ago, the NCAA indicated it would defer to the rules of the sports' governing bodies (such as USA Swimming).

Gail Dent, an NCAA spokesperson said yesterday that the NCAA is meeting at the end of February to "review the new U.S.A. Swimming policy" and that it was "uncertain" whether the new U.S.A. Swimming policy would be adopted in advance of the NCAA Championships (which start on March 16).

[teejers1]

One of Thomas’ competitors, Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde, said, “I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

Good for the Stanford swimmer to remind everyone of their humanity.

And you for reminding us of correct virtue signaling.  

Look, there is nothing inhumane about seeking a level playing field for competitors who have all worked extremely hard to make the team, qualify for the event, win the game/match/meet, whatever.  Or should that consideration always give way to those (a much smaller minority, btw) who appear not to be interested in competing in a level playing field?

I appreciate that it's a difficult issue for cultural reasons as much as any - and I don't understand all the medical nuances that could be involved in this debate.  But the chromosome/testicle thing strikes me as a pretty reasonable dividing line.  IDK, maybe parents of daughters who work hard to compete in a sport feel differently than others . . . you know, maybe we're all less humane by circumstance.

[teejers1]

One of Thomas’ competitors, Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde, said, “I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

Good for the Stanford swimmer to remind everyone of their humanity.

And you for reminding us of correct virtue signaling.  

Look, there is nothing inhumane about seeking a level playing field for competitors who have all worked extremely hard to make the team, qualify for the event, win the game/match/meet, whatever.  Or should that consideration always give way to those (a much smaller minority, btw) who appear not to be interested in competing in a level playing field?

I appreciate that it's a difficult issue for cultural reasons as much as any - and I don't understand all the medical nuances that could be involved in this debate.  But the chromosome/testicle thing strikes me as a pretty reasonable dividing line.  IDK, maybe parents of daughters who work hard to compete in a sport feel differently than others . . . you know, maybe we're all less humane by circumstance.

[DC 86]

One of Thomas’ competitors, Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde, said, “I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

Good for the Stanford swimmer to remind everyone of their humanity.

And you for reminding us of correct virtue signaling.  

Look, there is nothing inhumane about seeking a level playing field for competitors who have all worked extremely hard to make the team, qualify for the event, win the game/match/meet, whatever.  Or should that consideration always give way to those (a much smaller minority, btw) who appear not to be interested in competing in a level playing field?

I appreciate that it's a difficult issue for cultural reasons as much as any - and I don't understand all the medical nuances that could be involved in this debate.  But the chromosome/testicle thing strikes me as a pretty reasonable dividing line.  IDK, maybe parents of daughters who work hard to compete in a sport feel differently than others . . . you know, maybe we're all less humane by circumstance.

Speaking just for myself, I will treat every trans individual with respect and dignity. I don't consider myself inhumane for desiring a level playing field for cis girls and women who have dedicated their lives to their sport.

[DC 86]

One of Thomas’ competitors, Stanford swimmer Brooke Forde, said, “I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

Good for the Stanford swimmer to remind everyone of their humanity.

And you for reminding us of correct virtue signaling.  

Look, there is nothing inhumane about seeking a level playing field for competitors who have all worked extremely hard to make the team, qualify for the event, win the game/match/meet, whatever.  Or should that consideration always give way to those (a much smaller minority, btw) who appear not to be interested in competing in a level playing field?

I appreciate that it's a difficult issue for cultural reasons as much as any - and I don't understand all the medical nuances that could be involved in this debate.  But the chromosome/testicle thing strikes me as a pretty reasonable dividing line.  IDK, maybe parents of daughters who work hard to compete in a sport feel differently than others . . . you know, maybe we're all less humane by circumstance.

Speaking just for myself, I will treat every trans individual with respect and dignity. I don't consider myself inhumane for desiring a level playing field for cis girls and women who have dedicated their lives to their sport.