[teejers1]

What about an additional category of competition for trans athletes?  

Some may have thought I was being flip in alluding to a similar solution for The Great Bathroom Debate.  Build another bathroom; add a competition category for trans athletes.  I was not, though I wonder how robust the competition would be in various events.  But that could well change over time.

[teejers1]

What about an additional category of competition for trans athletes?  

Some may have thought I was being flip in alluding to a similar solution for The Great Bathroom Debate.  Build another bathroom; add a competition category for trans athletes.  I was not, though I wonder how robust the competition would be in various events.  But that could well change over time.

[BigJohn043]

Even if USA Swimming's policy may be the best one, there is something deeply distasteful about a committee deciding just how much of a woman or a man you are.

Let me get this straight.  It is distasteful for a committee to decide how much of a woman someone is with literally a penis and two testicles?

Polling shows that the public is pretty against this:  https://news.gallup.com/poll/350174/mixe...ssues.aspx

[BigJohn043]

Even if USA Swimming's policy may be the best one, there is something deeply distasteful about a committee deciding just how much of a woman or a man you are.

Let me get this straight.  It is distasteful for a committee to decide how much of a woman someone is with literally a penis and two testicles?

Polling shows that the public is pretty against this:  https://news.gallup.com/poll/350174/mixe...ssues.aspx

[martyup]

The term "biological advantage" in the context of this issue is used to designate birth gender.  To apply it to persons of the same gender just muddies the water.  There is a monumental leap from the athletic abilities of biological men and women.  There is a vastly shorter jump between the genetic athletic abilities of persons of the same biological sex.

[martyup]

The term "biological advantage" in the context of this issue is used to designate birth gender.  To apply it to persons of the same gender just muddies the water.  There is a monumental leap from the athletic abilities of biological men and women.  There is a vastly shorter jump between the genetic athletic abilities of persons of the same biological sex.

[fullmetal]

@teejers1 -- Ideally, that would be one avenue, but building codes and a very pernicious cost of real estate probably means that gender-neutral bathrooms are probably the future (and honestly, if you do it right, there shouldn't be any issues imo).

@spike5882 -- I appreciate your argument.  But acknowledging that biological disparity exists among AFAB women athletes (I can't think of a more nuanced term right now) does not mean that introducing even more biological disparity is okay.  At the very least, trans women athletes are not going through menstrual periods that have significant impact on athletic performance.  And then there are the puberty advantages.  



If we were to encourage greater biological disparity, I think the logical conclusion of that argument would be to do away with gender differences altogether in athletics.  In the post-college world, we separate competitors by age group and sometimes weight as well.  We recognize that biological markers affect the ability to compete fairly.  It's well past time to give trans athletes their own event(s) and recognition.

[fullmetal]

@teejers1 -- Ideally, that would be one avenue, but building codes and a very pernicious cost of real estate probably means that gender-neutral bathrooms are probably the future (and honestly, if you do it right, there shouldn't be any issues imo).

@spike5882 -- I appreciate your argument.  But acknowledging that biological disparity exists among AFAB women athletes (I can't think of a more nuanced term right now) does not mean that introducing even more biological disparity is okay.  At the very least, trans women athletes are not going through menstrual periods that have significant impact on athletic performance.  And then there are the puberty advantages.  



If we were to encourage greater biological disparity, I think the logical conclusion of that argument would be to do away with gender differences altogether in athletics.  In the post-college world, we separate competitors by age group and sometimes weight as well.  We recognize that biological markers affect the ability to compete fairly.  It's well past time to give trans athletes their own event(s) and recognition.

[DC 86]

I disagree. The number will surely be small but the impact could be significant.

Renee Richards was ranked 20th in the world at age 44. In her mid-forties she reached the third round of US Open singles and the final of US Open doubles. John McEnroe was slammed for saying that the #700 men's player would beat Serena Williams but the reality is that an NCAA champion or mid-level pro could be grand slam champion if they competed in the women's draw. A seven foot male college basketball player would surely be dominant in the WNBA. Surely a male professional boxer or MMA athlete would be dominant against women. I understand that athletes who transition have to artificially lower their testosterone levels but the residual benefits of puberty, not to mention height and length, are still very relevant.

Lia Thomas was a good, Ivy League swimmer when competing with males. But just one or two higher level athletes who transition in each sport would significantly impact women's sports as a whole.

These are not all equivalent examples.

7-foot male college basketball player in the WNBA? Yes, probably would do quite well, given that 7 feet is quite tall even for men. Would have to assume that the player was skilled though.

Any given male professional boxer/MMA athlete dominating vs. women? Not necessarily—not all men are inherently faster and stronger and more talented than all women and fighting is an area in which skill and speed count for a lot.

A mid-level male tennis pro or NCAA champ automatically winning a grand slam against women? I don’t think so. That vastly undersells the talent of the best female tennis players.

You're vastly underestimating the physical differences between male and female athletes. Of course I'm not comparing accomplished female athletes to random males off the street. But a college (or low ranked professional) male athlete will beat even a female champion in their sport.

Matthew Bolling ran 100 meters in 9.98 when he was still in high school, the women's world record is 10.49, and only five times has a woman ever run under 10.72.

There's something called the Universal Tennis Rating which is an objective system used to match players; it's widely used for tournaments at both the national and local level. Novan Djokovic has the highest current rating (16.30), while the #1,000 ranked pro player is rated at 13.26. The current top college player (Ben Shelton, Florida) is rated at 14.40 while the #100 college player is at 13.25. The #1 ranked women's pro in the world (Ashleigh Barty) has a rating of 13.40, which is the same as the #874 male professional and the #66 college player (who coincidentally is Axel Geller.)

When Tara coached the 1996 Olympic dream team they scrimmaged against ad hoc local men (with no male players over 6'2"). You can research how that went. A 7' college basketball player in the WNBA would be like Wilt Chamberlain in the NBA in the 1960s, but even a shorter college player would excel in a woman's league. Any man on the UFC roster would smash the women champions in that sport, I speak from experience as someone who trains and competes in the sport, who has actually sparred against highly accomplished women fighters in the gym. I suppose this is anecdotal but I doubt you will find basketball players, soccer players and fighters who believe otherwise. As a final point, the FC Dallas Under-15 academy team beat the US women's national soccer team 5-2 in a scrimmage at at time that the USWNT was ranked #1 in the world.

I feel awkward writing all this because a man being able to beat a woman doesn't make him a better athlete or better competitor or make women's sports inherently inferior to men's sports, and I don't want the above to be interpreted as being disrespectful to great women athletes. A woman champion is much more impressive and someone I respect more than a middling male athlete; the male athlete being able to defeat the female champion is simply as a matter of biology, not superiority as an athlete. The Stanford men's basketball team would easily beat the Stanford women's basketball team but I feel comfortable saying that our women are "better" and that the women are far more worthy of praise and adulation. That's not the point. The point is that a reasonably accomplished male athlete who transitions to a female identity - even after some amount of testosterone suppression or hormonal adjustment - is likely to compete at the highest levels against cis female athletes.

---

For me, I just struggle when people bring up the biological advantage as their only response because all of the athletes that are competing at a high level were born with a biological advantage.

People are born with natural biological advantages. Transitioning to a different gender is actively creating an artificial advantage, that's the difference.

[DC 86]

I disagree. The number will surely be small but the impact could be significant.

Renee Richards was ranked 20th in the world at age 44. In her mid-forties she reached the third round of US Open singles and the final of US Open doubles. John McEnroe was slammed for saying that the #700 men's player would beat Serena Williams but the reality is that an NCAA champion or mid-level pro could be grand slam champion if they competed in the women's draw. A seven foot male college basketball player would surely be dominant in the WNBA. Surely a male professional boxer or MMA athlete would be dominant against women. I understand that athletes who transition have to artificially lower their testosterone levels but the residual benefits of puberty, not to mention height and length, are still very relevant.

Lia Thomas was a good, Ivy League swimmer when competing with males. But just one or two higher level athletes who transition in each sport would significantly impact women's sports as a whole.

These are not all equivalent examples.

7-foot male college basketball player in the WNBA? Yes, probably would do quite well, given that 7 feet is quite tall even for men. Would have to assume that the player was skilled though.

Any given male professional boxer/MMA athlete dominating vs. women? Not necessarily—not all men are inherently faster and stronger and more talented than all women and fighting is an area in which skill and speed count for a lot.

A mid-level male tennis pro or NCAA champ automatically winning a grand slam against women? I don’t think so. That vastly undersells the talent of the best female tennis players.

You're vastly underestimating the physical differences between male and female athletes. Of course I'm not comparing accomplished female athletes to random males off the street. But a college (or low ranked professional) male athlete will beat even a female champion in their sport.

Matthew Bolling ran 100 meters in 9.98 when he was still in high school, the women's world record is 10.49, and only five times has a woman ever run under 10.72.

There's something called the Universal Tennis Rating which is an objective system used to match players; it's widely used for tournaments at both the national and local level. Novan Djokovic has the highest current rating (16.30), while the #1,000 ranked pro player is rated at 13.26. The current top college player (Ben Shelton, Florida) is rated at 14.40 while the #100 college player is at 13.25. The #1 ranked women's pro in the world (Ashleigh Barty) has a rating of 13.40, which is the same as the #874 male professional and the #66 college player (who coincidentally is Axel Geller.)

When Tara coached the 1996 Olympic dream team they scrimmaged against ad hoc local men (with no male players over 6'2"). You can research how that went. A 7' college basketball player in the WNBA would be like Wilt Chamberlain in the NBA in the 1960s, but even a shorter college player would excel in a woman's league. Any man on the UFC roster would smash the women champions in that sport, I speak from experience as someone who trains and competes in the sport, who has actually sparred against highly accomplished women fighters in the gym. I suppose this is anecdotal but I doubt you will find basketball players, soccer players and fighters who believe otherwise. As a final point, the FC Dallas Under-15 academy team beat the US women's national soccer team 5-2 in a scrimmage at at time that the USWNT was ranked #1 in the world.

I feel awkward writing all this because a man being able to beat a woman doesn't make him a better athlete or better competitor or make women's sports inherently inferior to men's sports, and I don't want the above to be interpreted as being disrespectful to great women athletes. A woman champion is much more impressive and someone I respect more than a middling male athlete; the male athlete being able to defeat the female champion is simply as a matter of biology, not superiority as an athlete. The Stanford men's basketball team would easily beat the Stanford women's basketball team but I feel comfortable saying that our women are "better" and that the women are far more worthy of praise and adulation. That's not the point. The point is that a reasonably accomplished male athlete who transitions to a female identity - even after some amount of testosterone suppression or hormonal adjustment - is likely to compete at the highest levels against cis female athletes.

---

For me, I just struggle when people bring up the biological advantage as their only response because all of the athletes that are competing at a high level were born with a biological advantage.

People are born with natural biological advantages. Transitioning to a different gender is actively creating an artificial advantage, that's the difference.

[martyup]

It's well past time to give trans athletes their own event(s) and recognition.

Why single out this small group?  About 0.7% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender.  AFAIK, transgender persons are allowed to compete against persons of their same biological gender.  So, they are not barred from competition.  

About 19% of young people are obese.  About 1.5% of people stutter.  About 0.9% of the population is blind.  About 25% of men are bald by the time they are 30.  A high percentage of people are lactose intolerant.  Should all of these groups be given their own events?  Of course not, because that would be absurd.  It would also be absurd to claim that we are bigots if we don't support transgender women competing against cisgender women or having their own category of competition.

[martyup]

It's well past time to give trans athletes their own event(s) and recognition.

Why single out this small group?  About 0.7% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender.  AFAIK, transgender persons are allowed to compete against persons of their same biological gender.  So, they are not barred from competition.  

About 19% of young people are obese.  About 1.5% of people stutter.  About 0.9% of the population is blind.  About 25% of men are bald by the time they are 30.  A high percentage of people are lactose intolerant.  Should all of these groups be given their own events?  Of course not, because that would be absurd.  It would also be absurd to claim that we are bigots if we don't support transgender women competing against cisgender women or having their own category of competition.

[BostonCard]

It's well past time to give trans athletes their own event(s) and recognition.

Why single out this small group?  About 0.7% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender.  AFAIK, transgender persons are allowed to compete against persons of their same biological gender.  So, they are not barred from competition.  

About 19% of young people are obese.  About 1.5% of people stutter.  About 0.9% of the population is blind.  About 25% of men are bald by the time they are 30.  A high percentage of people are lactose intolerant.  Should all of these groups be given their own events?  Of course not, because that would be absurd.  It would also be absurd to claim that we are bigots if we don't support transgender women competing against cisgender women or having their own category of competition.

No, I’m pretty sure that the testosterone therapy that trans males take would make them ineligible to compete against women.

BC

[BostonCard]

It's well past time to give trans athletes their own event(s) and recognition.

Why single out this small group?  About 0.7% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender.  AFAIK, transgender persons are allowed to compete against persons of their same biological gender.  So, they are not barred from competition.  

About 19% of young people are obese.  About 1.5% of people stutter.  About 0.9% of the population is blind.  About 25% of men are bald by the time they are 30.  A high percentage of people are lactose intolerant.  Should all of these groups be given their own events?  Of course not, because that would be absurd.  It would also be absurd to claim that we are bigots if we don't support transgender women competing against cisgender women or having their own category of competition.

No, I’m pretty sure that the testosterone therapy that trans males take would make them ineligible to compete against women.

BC

[spike5882]

---

For me, I just struggle when people bring up the biological advantage as their only response because all of the athletes that are competing at a high level were born with a biological advantage.

People are born with natural biological advantages. Transitioning to a different gender is actively creating an artificial advantage, that's the difference.

I respect your response; we just view it differently. We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  They are just trying to be the person as a gender they feel they were born to be.  Unfortunately, our society created defined gender structures that go along side biological sex which has created an issue when gender doesn’t match the social construct created.  Until we break those constructs completely (and realize we don’t need to define the behavior of biological males or females in the strict terms that have defined the social construct of gender), we will continue to define people as male or female with a definition meaning more than their biologically born genitalia and stature.  Until that happens, we will continue to have these problems.

[spike5882]

---

For me, I just struggle when people bring up the biological advantage as their only response because all of the athletes that are competing at a high level were born with a biological advantage.

People are born with natural biological advantages. Transitioning to a different gender is actively creating an artificial advantage, that's the difference.

I respect your response; we just view it differently. We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  They are just trying to be the person as a gender they feel they were born to be.  Unfortunately, our society created defined gender structures that go along side biological sex which has created an issue when gender doesn’t match the social construct created.  Until we break those constructs completely (and realize we don’t need to define the behavior of biological males or females in the strict terms that have defined the social construct of gender), we will continue to define people as male or female with a definition meaning more than their biologically born genitalia and stature.  Until that happens, we will continue to have these problems.

[cardcrimson]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

[cardcrimson]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

[BigJohn043]

---

For me, I just struggle when people bring up the biological advantage as their only response because all of the athletes that are competing at a high level were born with a biological advantage.

People are born with natural biological advantages. Transitioning to a different gender is actively creating an artificial advantage, that's the difference.

I respect your response; we just view it differently. We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  They are just trying to be the person as a gender they feel they were born to be.  Unfortunately, our society created defined gender structures that go along side biological sex which has created an issue when gender doesn’t match the social construct created.  Until we break those constructs completely (and realize we don’t need to define the behavior of biological males or females in the strict terms that have defined the social construct of gender), we will continue to define people as male or female with a definition meaning more than their biologically born genitalia and stature.  Until that happens, we will continue to have these problems.

We don't have mens and womens sports because of some social construct.  We have them because men and women are biologically different.

The problems are driven by people trying to deny the basic biology....

[BigJohn043]

---

For me, I just struggle when people bring up the biological advantage as their only response because all of the athletes that are competing at a high level were born with a biological advantage.

People are born with natural biological advantages. Transitioning to a different gender is actively creating an artificial advantage, that's the difference.

I respect your response; we just view it differently. We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  They are just trying to be the person as a gender they feel they were born to be.  Unfortunately, our society created defined gender structures that go along side biological sex which has created an issue when gender doesn’t match the social construct created.  Until we break those constructs completely (and realize we don’t need to define the behavior of biological males or females in the strict terms that have defined the social construct of gender), we will continue to define people as male or female with a definition meaning more than their biologically born genitalia and stature.  Until that happens, we will continue to have these problems.

We don't have mens and womens sports because of some social construct.  We have them because men and women are biologically different.

The problems are driven by people trying to deny the basic biology....

[DC 86]

Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

She's not 6'5". I've written several posts in agreement with you, and it's not necessary to exaggerate. She's around 6'0", 6'1" max.

[DC 86]

Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

She's not 6'5". I've written several posts in agreement with you, and it's not necessary to exaggerate. She's around 6'0", 6'1" max.

[spike5882]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning? I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it. Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money? Another genuine question. Just how is she capitalizing?

[spike5882]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning? I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it. Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money? Another genuine question. Just how is she capitalizing?

[teejers1]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Breaking swimming records - many would argue unfairly - isn't "capitalizing?"

Making a team (at someone else's expense) isn't capitalizing?

Look, I get it.  Transitioning is not easy, and there are lots of trials and tribulations for those who do it.  So why "penalize" these folks when they are already going through so much by taking something away from them that is obviously so important them (important enough to endure commentary like this - and far more severe, I'm sure)?

But like everything in life, policymaking is all about a balancing of interests.  And fairness.  And the needs of the many versus the needs of the few . . . or the one.  There is no hard and fast rule or recipe that spits out the optimal policy, as each issue has its own set of circumstances, interests, sense of fairness, numbers affected, etc..  

But here, the fairness coefficient and the numbers of benefitted versus adversely affected are just so out of whack that the correct policy seems pretty evident (at least from here).  And again, at least from the view of a father of a cis daughter who has worked hard to compete in her sport.

[teejers1]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Breaking swimming records - many would argue unfairly - isn't "capitalizing?"

Making a team (at someone else's expense) isn't capitalizing?

Look, I get it.  Transitioning is not easy, and there are lots of trials and tribulations for those who do it.  So why "penalize" these folks when they are already going through so much by taking something away from them that is obviously so important them (important enough to endure commentary like this - and far more severe, I'm sure)?

But like everything in life, policymaking is all about a balancing of interests.  And fairness.  And the needs of the many versus the needs of the few . . . or the one.  There is no hard and fast rule or recipe that spits out the optimal policy, as each issue has its own set of circumstances, interests, sense of fairness, numbers affected, etc..  

But here, the fairness coefficient and the numbers of benefitted versus adversely affected are just so out of whack that the correct policy seems pretty evident (at least from here).  And again, at least from the view of a father of a cis daughter who has worked hard to compete in her sport.

[fullmetal]

Why single out this small group?  About 0.7% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender.

I think there may be some biases at play in this specific form of self-identification lol.  It is still not a very friendly time for trans folks to come out, especially if we keep declaring them to be a tiny minority and treating them as such.

[fullmetal]

Why single out this small group?  About 0.7% of adults 18-24 identify as transgender.

I think there may be some biases at play in this specific form of self-identification lol.  It is still not a very friendly time for trans folks to come out, especially if we keep declaring them to be a tiny minority and treating them as such.

[spike5882]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Breaking swimming records - many would argue unfairly - isn't "capitalizing?"

Making a team (at someone else's expense) isn't capitalizing?

Look, I get it.  Transitioning is not easy, and there are lots of trials and tribulations for those who do it.  So why "penalize" these folks when they are already going through so much by taking something away from them that is obviously so important them (important enough to endure commentary like this - and far more severe, I'm sure)?

But like everything in life, policymaking is all about a balancing of interests.  And fairness.  And the needs of the many versus the needs of the few . . . or the one.  There is no hard and fast rule or recipe that spits out the optimal policy, as each issue has its own set of circumstances, interests, sense of fairness, numbers affected, etc..  

But here, the fairness coefficient and the numbers of benefitted versus adversely affected are just so out of whack that the correct policy seems pretty evident (at least from here).  And again, at least from the view of a father of a cis daughter who has worked hard to compete in her sport.

What records is Lia Thomas exactly breaking?

She broke a few UPenn records.  UPenn is not exactly a power house in their conference, and their conference is far from a powerhouse in swimming in general.  As we all know, they do not even offer athletic scholarships.  If most any Stanford swimmer were to join their team, they would tear up the school's record books. 

It comes off like people think she is smashing records left and right (by a biological advantage she is using to capitalize on). 

To put in perspective how Lia Thomas is doing this year, I have put her best times vs previous Stanford swimmers in all events.

50 Free

Lia Thomas          22.78

Simone Manuel     21.17
Lia Neal               21.65
Janet Hu              21.65
Plus many many more (she would not fall on the top 10 list for Stanford)


100 Free 

Lia Thomas          49.42

Simone Manuel     45.56
Taylor Ruck           46.76
Plus many many more (she would not fall into the top 10 at Stanford)

200 Free

Lia Thomas         1:41.93

Ledecky              1:40.36
Taylor Ruck         1:40.37
Simone Manuel    1:40.37


500 Free

Lia Thomas        4:34:06

Katie Ledecky.    4:24.06
Brooke Ford       4:31.34
Ella Eastin          4:32.89

1000 Free

Lia Thomas         9:35.96

Ledecky              9:05.89


1650 Free 

Lia Thomas         15:59.56

Ledecky              15:03.31
Plus 5 more (she would be 7th on Stanford's list)

Furthermore, here is where she places in comparison to all times by women this year so far:

50 Free        Not listed in the top 100
100 Free      Not listed in the top 100
200 Free      First as of today
500 Free      First as of today by a hair
1000 Free    Not listed as being ranked
1650 Free    8th as of today

Summing it up, she has broken 3 school records at a mediocre (at best) swimming school.  She does have the fastest time in two events this year but both by a slim margin, and she has not swam those times consistently so definitely not guaranteed to win those evens (a la Ledecky while swimming).  In both the 200 and 500 free her average time from all meets would not even put her in the top 100 women in the country in either event.  She swam really well solely one time in each event but has not been able to do so consistently this season.  So, I really don't see how she is changing the landscape of women's swimming with her biological advantages.

[spike5882]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Breaking swimming records - many would argue unfairly - isn't "capitalizing?"

Making a team (at someone else's expense) isn't capitalizing?

Look, I get it.  Transitioning is not easy, and there are lots of trials and tribulations for those who do it.  So why "penalize" these folks when they are already going through so much by taking something away from them that is obviously so important them (important enough to endure commentary like this - and far more severe, I'm sure)?

But like everything in life, policymaking is all about a balancing of interests.  And fairness.  And the needs of the many versus the needs of the few . . . or the one.  There is no hard and fast rule or recipe that spits out the optimal policy, as each issue has its own set of circumstances, interests, sense of fairness, numbers affected, etc..  

But here, the fairness coefficient and the numbers of benefitted versus adversely affected are just so out of whack that the correct policy seems pretty evident (at least from here).  And again, at least from the view of a father of a cis daughter who has worked hard to compete in her sport.

What records is Lia Thomas exactly breaking?

She broke a few UPenn records.  UPenn is not exactly a power house in their conference, and their conference is far from a powerhouse in swimming in general.  As we all know, they do not even offer athletic scholarships.  If most any Stanford swimmer were to join their team, they would tear up the school's record books. 

It comes off like people think she is smashing records left and right (by a biological advantage she is using to capitalize on). 

To put in perspective how Lia Thomas is doing this year, I have put her best times vs previous Stanford swimmers in all events.

50 Free

Lia Thomas          22.78

Simone Manuel     21.17
Lia Neal               21.65
Janet Hu              21.65
Plus many many more (she would not fall on the top 10 list for Stanford)


100 Free 

Lia Thomas          49.42

Simone Manuel     45.56
Taylor Ruck           46.76
Plus many many more (she would not fall into the top 10 at Stanford)

200 Free

Lia Thomas         1:41.93

Ledecky              1:40.36
Taylor Ruck         1:40.37
Simone Manuel    1:40.37


500 Free

Lia Thomas        4:34:06

Katie Ledecky.    4:24.06
Brooke Ford       4:31.34
Ella Eastin          4:32.89

1000 Free

Lia Thomas         9:35.96

Ledecky              9:05.89


1650 Free 

Lia Thomas         15:59.56

Ledecky              15:03.31
Plus 5 more (she would be 7th on Stanford's list)

Furthermore, here is where she places in comparison to all times by women this year so far:

50 Free        Not listed in the top 100
100 Free      Not listed in the top 100
200 Free      First as of today
500 Free      First as of today by a hair
1000 Free    Not listed as being ranked
1650 Free    8th as of today

Summing it up, she has broken 3 school records at a mediocre (at best) swimming school.  She does have the fastest time in two events this year but both by a slim margin, and she has not swam those times consistently so definitely not guaranteed to win those evens (a la Ledecky while swimming).  In both the 200 and 500 free her average time from all meets would not even put her in the top 100 women in the country in either event.  She swam really well solely one time in each event but has not been able to do so consistently this season.  So, I really don't see how she is changing the landscape of women's swimming with her biological advantages.

[M T]

What's all this fuss about?  Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine but everyone is talking all about it like Russia just overwhelmed them.  It hasn't happened, so why do you even think it would.

[M T]

What's all this fuss about?  Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine but everyone is talking all about it like Russia just overwhelmed them.  It hasn't happened, so why do you even think it would.

[teejers1]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Breaking swimming records - many would argue unfairly - isn't "capitalizing?"

Making a team (at someone else's expense) isn't capitalizing?

Look, I get it.  Transitioning is not easy, and there are lots of trials and tribulations for those who do it.  So why "penalize" these folks when they are already going through so much by taking something away from them that is obviously so important them (important enough to endure commentary like this - and far more severe, I'm sure)?

But like everything in life, policymaking is all about a balancing of interests.  And fairness.  And the needs of the many versus the needs of the few . . . or the one.  There is no hard and fast rule or recipe that spits out the optimal policy, as each issue has its own set of circumstances, interests, sense of fairness, numbers affected, etc..  

But here, the fairness coefficient and the numbers of benefitted versus adversely affected are just so out of whack that the correct policy seems pretty evident (at least from here).  And again, at least from the view of a father of a cis daughter who has worked hard to compete in her sport.

What records is Lia Thomas exactly breaking?

She broke a few UPenn records.  UPenn is not exactly a power house in their conference, and their conference is far from a powerhouse in swimming in general.  As we all know, they do not even offer athletic scholarships.  If most any Stanford swimmer were to join their team, they would tear up the school's record books. 

It comes off like people think she is smashing records left and right (by a biological advantage she is using to capitalize on). 

To put in perspective how Lia Thomas is doing this year, I have put her best times vs previous Stanford swimmers in all events.

50 Free

Lia Thomas          22.78

Simone Manuel     21.17
Lia Neal               21.65
Janet Hu              21.65
Plus many many more (she would not fall on the top 10 list for Stanford)


100 Free 

Lia Thomas          49.42

Simone Manuel     45.56
Taylor Ruck           46.76
Plus many many more (she would not fall into the top 10 at Stanford)

200 Free

Lia Thomas         1:41.93

Ledecky              1:40.36
Taylor Ruck         1:40.37
Simone Manuel    1:40.37


500 Free

Lia Thomas        4:34:06

Katie Ledecky.    4:24.06
Brooke Ford       4:31.34
Ella Eastin          4:32.89

1000 Free

Lia Thomas         9:35.96

Ledecky              9:05.89


1650 Free 

Lia Thomas         15:59.56

Ledecky              15:03.31
Plus 5 more (she would be 7th on Stanford's list)

Furthermore, here is where she places in comparison to all times by women this year so far:

50 Free        Not listed in the top 100
100 Free      Not listed in the top 100
200 Free      First as of today
500 Free      First as of today by a hair
1000 Free    Not listed as being ranked
1650 Free    8th as of today

Summing it up, she has broken 3 school records at a mediocre (at best) swimming school.  She does have the fastest time in two events this year but both by a slim margin, and she has not swam those times consistently so definitely not guaranteed to win those evens (a la Ledecky while swimming).  In both the 200 and 500 free her average time from all meets would not even put her in the top 100 women in the country in either event.  She swam really well solely one time in each event but has not been able to do so consistently this season.  So, I really don't see how she is changing the landscape of women's swimming with her biological advantages.

What is the policy you're advocating?  It's okay for trans women to compete in sports if they don't break X amount of records at a school?  Nationally?  World level?  Don't score X amount of points/game?

I'm sure the former record holders at Penn are thrilled with her success, as is/are the woman/women who are not allowed to compete because Thomas took her/their spot, same with competitors at other schools who may have been edged out of any national qualifications.  

You get the point.

Why should Thomas's wishes/desires be afforded any greater consideration than theirs?

[teejers1]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Breaking swimming records - many would argue unfairly - isn't "capitalizing?"

Making a team (at someone else's expense) isn't capitalizing?

Look, I get it.  Transitioning is not easy, and there are lots of trials and tribulations for those who do it.  So why "penalize" these folks when they are already going through so much by taking something away from them that is obviously so important them (important enough to endure commentary like this - and far more severe, I'm sure)?

But like everything in life, policymaking is all about a balancing of interests.  And fairness.  And the needs of the many versus the needs of the few . . . or the one.  There is no hard and fast rule or recipe that spits out the optimal policy, as each issue has its own set of circumstances, interests, sense of fairness, numbers affected, etc..  

But here, the fairness coefficient and the numbers of benefitted versus adversely affected are just so out of whack that the correct policy seems pretty evident (at least from here).  And again, at least from the view of a father of a cis daughter who has worked hard to compete in her sport.

What records is Lia Thomas exactly breaking?

She broke a few UPenn records.  UPenn is not exactly a power house in their conference, and their conference is far from a powerhouse in swimming in general.  As we all know, they do not even offer athletic scholarships.  If most any Stanford swimmer were to join their team, they would tear up the school's record books. 

It comes off like people think she is smashing records left and right (by a biological advantage she is using to capitalize on). 

To put in perspective how Lia Thomas is doing this year, I have put her best times vs previous Stanford swimmers in all events.

50 Free

Lia Thomas          22.78

Simone Manuel     21.17
Lia Neal               21.65
Janet Hu              21.65
Plus many many more (she would not fall on the top 10 list for Stanford)


100 Free 

Lia Thomas          49.42

Simone Manuel     45.56
Taylor Ruck           46.76
Plus many many more (she would not fall into the top 10 at Stanford)

200 Free

Lia Thomas         1:41.93

Ledecky              1:40.36
Taylor Ruck         1:40.37
Simone Manuel    1:40.37


500 Free

Lia Thomas        4:34:06

Katie Ledecky.    4:24.06
Brooke Ford       4:31.34
Ella Eastin          4:32.89

1000 Free

Lia Thomas         9:35.96

Ledecky              9:05.89


1650 Free 

Lia Thomas         15:59.56

Ledecky              15:03.31
Plus 5 more (she would be 7th on Stanford's list)

Furthermore, here is where she places in comparison to all times by women this year so far:

50 Free        Not listed in the top 100
100 Free      Not listed in the top 100
200 Free      First as of today
500 Free      First as of today by a hair
1000 Free    Not listed as being ranked
1650 Free    8th as of today

Summing it up, she has broken 3 school records at a mediocre (at best) swimming school.  She does have the fastest time in two events this year but both by a slim margin, and she has not swam those times consistently so definitely not guaranteed to win those evens (a la Ledecky while swimming).  In both the 200 and 500 free her average time from all meets would not even put her in the top 100 women in the country in either event.  She swam really well solely one time in each event but has not been able to do so consistently this season.  So, I really don't see how she is changing the landscape of women's swimming with her biological advantages.

What is the policy you're advocating?  It's okay for trans women to compete in sports if they don't break X amount of records at a school?  Nationally?  World level?  Don't score X amount of points/game?

I'm sure the former record holders at Penn are thrilled with her success, as is/are the woman/women who are not allowed to compete because Thomas took her/their spot, same with competitors at other schools who may have been edged out of any national qualifications.  

You get the point.

Why should Thomas's wishes/desires be afforded any greater consideration than theirs?

[BostonCard]

I just want to thank everyone for keeping this thread (mostly) civil. I recognize that this is a very contentious issue that people have strong feelings about.

BC

[BostonCard]

I just want to thank everyone for keeping this thread (mostly) civil. I recognize that this is a very contentious issue that people have strong feelings about.

BC

[cardcrimson]

Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

She's not 6'5". I've written several posts in agreement with you, and it's not necessary to exaggerate. She's around 6'0", 6'1" max.

Sorry if it's not correct. Got that off of Swimswam (very popular swimming website and online magazine) as my source, mentioned in several articles and comments. Not trying to exaggerate. If you can't trust the internet. . . .

[cardcrimson]

Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

She's not 6'5". I've written several posts in agreement with you, and it's not necessary to exaggerate. She's around 6'0", 6'1" max.

Sorry if it's not correct. Got that off of Swimswam (very popular swimming website and online magazine) as my source, mentioned in several articles and comments. Not trying to exaggerate. If you can't trust the internet. . . .

[cardcrimson]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Okay, I was an engineering student and not a writer. Can you explain, though, how my few sentences suggested hordes of football players running to their doctors? I didn't mention money, either. So I'm genuinely perplexed that my message didn't get through. Let me try again. 

I looked up capitalize on Webster's: intransitive verb: to gain by turning something to advantage

Your comment "I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned" is completely missing the point. It's not "since she transitioned", it's before. She has taken her body and physical strength, developed as a male through early college, and turned that into an advantage swimming against Ivy League female talent. Simple as that. She wins today as a female, while she didn't as a male against the same Ivy League calibre talent. That's capitalizing on an advantage. Period. As for motivation, who knows. Why do people compete at all? My guess is to win. And it's easier for Lia to win as a female than it was as a male.

My main point however, I clearly didn't get across clearly. Let me try again. My daughter plays high school water polo and is a pretty good goalie. If you've ever watched the game, you'd note a significant difference between the men's game and the women's game. H u g e difference in physicality, speed, and velocity of shots. 

A quick example. Right after my daughter's high school team won against a rival, the boys were up. I watched a goalie get hit hard in the chest and another take one off his head. The latter was so hard, the ball ricocheted about 20 feet into the air. Either of those shots could have easily incapacitated my daughter, or much worse. She's already had one concussion. I shudder to think what would happen if she were to take shots like her male counterparts did. And that could happen with just one trans female playing with the cis females.

Many studies have shown that boys are built differently than girls, and that concussions are more likely for women, even in similar sports such as soccer. What happens in water polo, soccer, rugby, lax, basketball if trans females play with cis females? Somebody, eventually, is going to get hurt, and it won't be the trans female.

But apparently that's okay with you, all in the so called name of equality and fairness. . . .

[cardcrimson]

We have yet to see a trans athlete change gender with the purpose to create an advantage.  

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Okay, I was an engineering student and not a writer. Can you explain, though, how my few sentences suggested hordes of football players running to their doctors? I didn't mention money, either. So I'm genuinely perplexed that my message didn't get through. Let me try again. 

I looked up capitalize on Webster's: intransitive verb: to gain by turning something to advantage

Your comment "I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned" is completely missing the point. It's not "since she transitioned", it's before. She has taken her body and physical strength, developed as a male through early college, and turned that into an advantage swimming against Ivy League female talent. Simple as that. She wins today as a female, while she didn't as a male against the same Ivy League calibre talent. That's capitalizing on an advantage. Period. As for motivation, who knows. Why do people compete at all? My guess is to win. And it's easier for Lia to win as a female than it was as a male.

My main point however, I clearly didn't get across clearly. Let me try again. My daughter plays high school water polo and is a pretty good goalie. If you've ever watched the game, you'd note a significant difference between the men's game and the women's game. H u g e difference in physicality, speed, and velocity of shots. 

A quick example. Right after my daughter's high school team won against a rival, the boys were up. I watched a goalie get hit hard in the chest and another take one off his head. The latter was so hard, the ball ricocheted about 20 feet into the air. Either of those shots could have easily incapacitated my daughter, or much worse. She's already had one concussion. I shudder to think what would happen if she were to take shots like her male counterparts did. And that could happen with just one trans female playing with the cis females.

Many studies have shown that boys are built differently than girls, and that concussions are more likely for women, even in similar sports such as soccer. What happens in water polo, soccer, rugby, lax, basketball if trans females play with cis females? Somebody, eventually, is going to get hurt, and it won't be the trans female.

But apparently that's okay with you, all in the so called name of equality and fairness. . . .