[DC 86]

There indeed is a group (great mass?) of quarterbacks who are not elite and who are dependent on their surrounding offensive teammates, their defense and their coaches in order to win. Garoppolo is obviously in this cohort.

but aren't all QBs dependent on their surrounding cast and coach?  Like say Jim Plunkett....

There indeed is a group (great mass?) of quarterbacks who are not elite and who are dependent on their surrounding offensive teammates, their defense and their coaches in order to win. Garoppolo is obviously in this cohort. 

Not all that interested in this argument, but was interested in your statement regarding quarterbacks who were dependent on their coaches, defense and offensive teammates for success.

I would definitely include 4-time Super Bowl winner Terry Bradshaw in that group.  He never had the best passer rating in the NFL; in fact, he only made the top four once.  He had the Steel Curtain defense and Chuck Noll.

But would you include 4-time Super Bowl winner Joe Montana in that group?

Joe Montana thrived in an offense that was tailor-made for his skills and he was surrounded by elite talent. In other circumstances he would not have reached the same level of success, but he was an exceptional quarterback with rare athleticism and accuracy, and going to Kansas City and playing extremely well despite his age and injury history confirms for me that he was a Hall of Fame quarterback regardless of the circumstances.

A quarterback benefiting from a system doesn't; make him a product of that system. Joe Montana greatly benefited from Bill Walsh's offense but even The Genius couldn't design an offense that would make Steve DeBerg into a Hall of Famer, or anything close to it. Bad coaching and poor surrounding talent can thwart a potentially great career (e.g. Jim Plunkett or Archie Manning) but great coaching and great teammates can't manufacture a great quarterback unless said quarterback has truly great talent to begin with.

I tend to broadly place quarterbacks into three categories:

1. Elite: can carry a team to the playoffs even with subpar surrounding talent, and can win a championship even without substantial elite talent around him.
2. Legitimate Starters: can lead a team to the playoffs with strong surrounding talent, and can win a championship with enough elite surrounding talent.
3. Others: can lead a team to the playoffs with elite surrounding talent, can't win a championship regardless of surrounding talent.

At any time there seem to only be around a dozen quarterbacks in the elite category. Right now I would put the following in this category: Josh Allen, Tom Brady, Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Kyler Murray, Dak Prescott, Aaron Rodgers and Matthew Stafford. Russell Wilson is also in this group although at the moment his thumb is clearly impeding him.

Players like Aaron Rodgers are unicorns and in a class of their own; he could be an MVP in any system, which is extremely unusual. Even most elite quarterbacks need the offense to be designed to complement their skills in order to maximize those skills, either because of their mobility (or lack thereof), arm strength (or lack thereof), physical size, etc. This is true even for first ballot Hall of Famers such as Peyton Manning or Drew Brees. Tampa Bay had to adapt their offense over the course of last season to make things work with Tom Brady. That doesn't mean those players aren't elite, just as I don't believe players like Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray aren't elite just because they play in offenses that have been specifically designed for them; they may be limited to a certain scheme but they can carry their teams within that scheme even when their teammates aren't playing at the highest level.

[DC 86]

There indeed is a group (great mass?) of quarterbacks who are not elite and who are dependent on their surrounding offensive teammates, their defense and their coaches in order to win. Garoppolo is obviously in this cohort.

but aren't all QBs dependent on their surrounding cast and coach?  Like say Jim Plunkett....

There indeed is a group (great mass?) of quarterbacks who are not elite and who are dependent on their surrounding offensive teammates, their defense and their coaches in order to win. Garoppolo is obviously in this cohort. 

Not all that interested in this argument, but was interested in your statement regarding quarterbacks who were dependent on their coaches, defense and offensive teammates for success.

I would definitely include 4-time Super Bowl winner Terry Bradshaw in that group.  He never had the best passer rating in the NFL; in fact, he only made the top four once.  He had the Steel Curtain defense and Chuck Noll.

But would you include 4-time Super Bowl winner Joe Montana in that group?

Joe Montana thrived in an offense that was tailor-made for his skills and he was surrounded by elite talent. In other circumstances he would not have reached the same level of success, but he was an exceptional quarterback with rare athleticism and accuracy, and going to Kansas City and playing extremely well despite his age and injury history confirms for me that he was a Hall of Fame quarterback regardless of the circumstances.

A quarterback benefiting from a system doesn't; make him a product of that system. Joe Montana greatly benefited from Bill Walsh's offense but even The Genius couldn't design an offense that would make Steve DeBerg into a Hall of Famer, or anything close to it. Bad coaching and poor surrounding talent can thwart a potentially great career (e.g. Jim Plunkett or Archie Manning) but great coaching and great teammates can't manufacture a great quarterback unless said quarterback has truly great talent to begin with.

I tend to broadly place quarterbacks into three categories:

1. Elite: can carry a team to the playoffs even with subpar surrounding talent, and can win a championship even without substantial elite talent around him.
2. Legitimate Starters: can lead a team to the playoffs with strong surrounding talent, and can win a championship with enough elite surrounding talent.
3. Others: can lead a team to the playoffs with elite surrounding talent, can't win a championship regardless of surrounding talent.

At any time there seem to only be around a dozen quarterbacks in the elite category. Right now I would put the following in this category: Josh Allen, Tom Brady, Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Kyler Murray, Dak Prescott, Aaron Rodgers and Matthew Stafford. Russell Wilson is also in this group although at the moment his thumb is clearly impeding him.

Players like Aaron Rodgers are unicorns and in a class of their own; he could be an MVP in any system, which is extremely unusual. Even most elite quarterbacks need the offense to be designed to complement their skills in order to maximize those skills, either because of their mobility (or lack thereof), arm strength (or lack thereof), physical size, etc. This is true even for first ballot Hall of Famers such as Peyton Manning or Drew Brees. Tampa Bay had to adapt their offense over the course of last season to make things work with Tom Brady. That doesn't mean those players aren't elite, just as I don't believe players like Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray aren't elite just because they play in offenses that have been specifically designed for them; they may be limited to a certain scheme but they can carry their teams within that scheme even when their teammates aren't playing at the highest level.