[spike5882]

Can we at least agree that Lia Thomas has significant, fundamental biological advantages over her competitors that cannot be remedied by hormone therapy?  

I am not sure that there is anybody that is disagreeing Lia Thomas has a significant, fundamental biological advantage. Particularly given that not only did she develop fully as a male, but she also competed at a high level as a male.

Where my issues lies is with those that are saying that biological advantages are unfair and just now bringing it up.  

Biological advantages have always played an important role in sports. Seemingly people are not willing to accept or agree on that point, and that is my issue. They want to talk about Lias biological advantages but not the biological advantages that already existed from other athletes.  

Like ColoradoTree, I feel for both sides.  I truly do, and I don’t know what the appropriate answer is. I, too, feel badly for both sides with any outcome. I also agree it has become a political situation which irks me. 

I just don’t think the proper response is to only (and continually) bring up biological differences.  There is not any elite female swimmer that is competing who does not have a biological advantage they were born with.  It is literally the simplest characteristic of all elite athletes, with hard work and a lot of practice coming in a distant second (but still critically important particularly at an elite level). 

Female A can be biologically more adept to swimming and practice to become elite.

Female B can be biologically less adept to swimming and practice 5 times harder than Female A and still may never reach the same level and almost never will surpass Female A.

(The above can apply to pretty much any sport).

At the same time, I do understand the practice that goes into it, which is why I feel for both sides.  I come from a swimming family.  As a kid I hated swimming but I still won state titles in my age group. Yet, I was the only one in my generation of the family who didn’t swim in the Olympic trials (because I didn’t have a passion and did not want to practice at the level needed).  I also saw other kids lose and their parents get upset.  As a 10 yr old, I saw a close friend have their father throw him against his locker after a meet multiple times for not winning. And yet he practiced and practiced (sometimes out of fear and sometimes out of passion) but his body was just not going to be the body that lets him win at the highest levels.  He still went on to swim collegiately but he was never going to be an Olympic swimmer like his dad wanted regardless of how much he practiced. 

You could have the flip conversation re trans athletes. 

Lia has a biological advantage and I assume trains at a high level.  She’s succeeding.

Trans athlete B could have a biological advantage but doesn’t train hard and doesn’t win.

Trans athlete C is a small athlete (regardless of gender) and practices all day long.  They still may not reach an elite level because they were not born with a body (regardless of gender) that is putting them in a position to be an elite swimmer.

Succeeding at any sport at an elite level is a combination of both high level training and genetic/biological advantages that we have no control over.  

For me, I just struggle when people bring up the biological advantage as their only response because all of the athletes that are competing at a high level were born with a biological advantage.  They also likely worked their butts off. 

So, back to your question…yes, I am sure we can all agree Lia has a biological advantage.  Can we also agree Ledecky was born with a biological advantage? Other women have practiced as hard as her but she is a freak (saying this with all positive connotations meant) which let her blow away competition like we’d never ever seen before.  (Wanting to make sure that nothing is coming off as negative about Ledecky…she’s crazy amazing, dedicated, etc and just throwing her out as an example).  So, can we also all agree all elite athletes were born with some type of biological advantage over their lesser peers? If so, then where do we go from there with this conversation? It’s a very difficult one.   I just don’t personally feel that pitting it down to biological advantages is the right path that is going to provide any answers.

I also have mad respect for all that want to protect women in this situation. Women have often (more than often) received the short end of the stick when it comes to sports. It is daily still. I also have a trans friend that receives the short end of the stick daily. I have had so many learning moments the past 10 years in understanding his situation. There are still times I’m learning. Due to this relationship, I also unabashedly want to protect trans rights as they are often misunderstood and given the short end of the stick even moreso than women. It’s all complicated, which is why the answer is difficult.

[spike5882]

Can we at least agree that Lia Thomas has significant, fundamental biological advantages over her competitors that cannot be remedied by hormone therapy?  

I am not sure that there is anybody that is disagreeing Lia Thomas has a significant, fundamental biological advantage. Particularly given that not only did she develop fully as a male, but she also competed at a high level as a male.

Where my issues lies is with those that are saying that biological advantages are unfair and just now bringing it up.  

Biological advantages have always played an important role in sports. Seemingly people are not willing to accept or agree on that point, and that is my issue. They want to talk about Lias biological advantages but not the biological advantages that already existed from other athletes.  

Like ColoradoTree, I feel for both sides.  I truly do, and I don’t know what the appropriate answer is. I, too, feel badly for both sides with any outcome. I also agree it has become a political situation which irks me. 

I just don’t think the proper response is to only (and continually) bring up biological differences.  There is not any elite female swimmer that is competing who does not have a biological advantage they were born with.  It is literally the simplest characteristic of all elite athletes, with hard work and a lot of practice coming in a distant second (but still critically important particularly at an elite level). 

Female A can be biologically more adept to swimming and practice to become elite.

Female B can be biologically less adept to swimming and practice 5 times harder than Female A and still may never reach the same level and almost never will surpass Female A.

(The above can apply to pretty much any sport).

At the same time, I do understand the practice that goes into it, which is why I feel for both sides.  I come from a swimming family.  As a kid I hated swimming but I still won state titles in my age group. Yet, I was the only one in my generation of the family who didn’t swim in the Olympic trials (because I didn’t have a passion and did not want to practice at the level needed).  I also saw other kids lose and their parents get upset.  As a 10 yr old, I saw a close friend have their father throw him against his locker after a meet multiple times for not winning. And yet he practiced and practiced (sometimes out of fear and sometimes out of passion) but his body was just not going to be the body that lets him win at the highest levels.  He still went on to swim collegiately but he was never going to be an Olympic swimmer like his dad wanted regardless of how much he practiced. 

You could have the flip conversation re trans athletes. 

Lia has a biological advantage and I assume trains at a high level.  She’s succeeding.

Trans athlete B could have a biological advantage but doesn’t train hard and doesn’t win.

Trans athlete C is a small athlete (regardless of gender) and practices all day long.  They still may not reach an elite level because they were not born with a body (regardless of gender) that is putting them in a position to be an elite swimmer.

Succeeding at any sport at an elite level is a combination of both high level training and genetic/biological advantages that we have no control over.  

For me, I just struggle when people bring up the biological advantage as their only response because all of the athletes that are competing at a high level were born with a biological advantage.  They also likely worked their butts off. 

So, back to your question…yes, I am sure we can all agree Lia has a biological advantage.  Can we also agree Ledecky was born with a biological advantage? Other women have practiced as hard as her but she is a freak (saying this with all positive connotations meant) which let her blow away competition like we’d never ever seen before.  (Wanting to make sure that nothing is coming off as negative about Ledecky…she’s crazy amazing, dedicated, etc and just throwing her out as an example).  So, can we also all agree all elite athletes were born with some type of biological advantage over their lesser peers? If so, then where do we go from there with this conversation? It’s a very difficult one.   I just don’t personally feel that pitting it down to biological advantages is the right path that is going to provide any answers.

I also have mad respect for all that want to protect women in this situation. Women have often (more than often) received the short end of the stick when it comes to sports. It is daily still. I also have a trans friend that receives the short end of the stick daily. I have had so many learning moments the past 10 years in understanding his situation. There are still times I’m learning. Due to this relationship, I also unabashedly want to protect trans rights as they are often misunderstood and given the short end of the stick even moreso than women. It’s all complicated, which is why the answer is difficult.