[spike5882]

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Breaking swimming records - many would argue unfairly - isn't "capitalizing?"

Making a team (at someone else's expense) isn't capitalizing?

Look, I get it.  Transitioning is not easy, and there are lots of trials and tribulations for those who do it.  So why "penalize" these folks when they are already going through so much by taking something away from them that is obviously so important them (important enough to endure commentary like this - and far more severe, I'm sure)?

But like everything in life, policymaking is all about a balancing of interests.  And fairness.  And the needs of the many versus the needs of the few . . . or the one.  There is no hard and fast rule or recipe that spits out the optimal policy, as each issue has its own set of circumstances, interests, sense of fairness, numbers affected, etc..  

But here, the fairness coefficient and the numbers of benefitted versus adversely affected are just so out of whack that the correct policy seems pretty evident (at least from here).  And again, at least from the view of a father of a cis daughter who has worked hard to compete in her sport.

What records is Lia Thomas exactly breaking?

She broke a few UPenn records.  UPenn is not exactly a power house in their conference, and their conference is far from a powerhouse in swimming in general.  As we all know, they do not even offer athletic scholarships.  If most any Stanford swimmer were to join their team, they would tear up the school's record books. 

It comes off like people think she is smashing records left and right (by a biological advantage she is using to capitalize on). 

To put in perspective how Lia Thomas is doing this year, I have put her best times vs previous Stanford swimmers in all events.

50 Free

Lia Thomas          22.78

Simone Manuel     21.17
Lia Neal               21.65
Janet Hu              21.65
Plus many many more (she would not fall on the top 10 list for Stanford)


100 Free 

Lia Thomas          49.42

Simone Manuel     45.56
Taylor Ruck           46.76
Plus many many more (she would not fall into the top 10 at Stanford)

200 Free

Lia Thomas         1:41.93

Ledecky              1:40.36
Taylor Ruck         1:40.37
Simone Manuel    1:40.37


500 Free

Lia Thomas        4:34:06

Katie Ledecky.    4:24.06
Brooke Ford       4:31.34
Ella Eastin          4:32.89

1000 Free

Lia Thomas         9:35.96

Ledecky              9:05.89


1650 Free 

Lia Thomas         15:59.56

Ledecky              15:03.31
Plus 5 more (she would be 7th on Stanford's list)

Furthermore, here is where she places in comparison to all times by women this year so far:

50 Free        Not listed in the top 100
100 Free      Not listed in the top 100
200 Free      First as of today
500 Free      First as of today by a hair
1000 Free    Not listed as being ranked
1650 Free    8th as of today

Summing it up, she has broken 3 school records at a mediocre (at best) swimming school.  She does have the fastest time in two events this year but both by a slim margin, and she has not swam those times consistently so definitely not guaranteed to win those evens (a la Ledecky while swimming).  In both the 200 and 500 free her average time from all meets would not even put her in the top 100 women in the country in either event.  She swam really well solely one time in each event but has not been able to do so consistently this season.  So, I really don't see how she is changing the landscape of women's swimming with her biological advantages.

What is the policy you're advocating?  It's okay for trans women to compete in sports if they don't break X amount of records at a school?  Nationally?  World level?  Don't score X amount of points/game?

I'm sure the former record holders at Penn are thrilled with her success, as is/are the woman/women who are not allowed to compete because Thomas took her/their spot, same with competitors at other schools who may have been edged out of any national qualifications.  

You get the point.

Why should Thomas's wishes/desires be afforded any greater consideration than theirs?

I don’t have a policy I feel is correct.  What we do have is the current policy and she has followed the rules.  And yet she is being villanized for it.  If those who have the power to change then decide to do so….well, I think she needs to follow those rules as well.  If she doesn’t follow them, then she shouldn’t be allowed to compete.

[spike5882]

Perhaps not. However, Lia is certainly capitalizing on that advantage, isn't she. Six foot five, broad shoulders, 15+ years training and competing as a guy. . . .

When does it become not okay? When a trans girl maims or kills a cisgender girl in a contact sport?

Good lord.  You make it sound like hordes of football players are running to their doctors to transition. A pretty far fetched perspective you have. In your world, pretty soon all these males will be infiltrating all of women sports, maiming and killing other girls along the way, so they can more easily win and finally get paid since they weren’t good enough as a male. But wait, there’s no money in women’s sports. Hmm. So what actually would be their motivation…a ribbon, a medal, a trophy? Genuine question.

And how exactly is she capitalizing on transitioning?  I don’t see her taking advantage of anything since she has transitioned; she has just swam and been pretty quiet about it.  Has she gotten tons of endorsements or NIL money?  Another genuine question.  Just how is she capitalizing?

Breaking swimming records - many would argue unfairly - isn't "capitalizing?"

Making a team (at someone else's expense) isn't capitalizing?

Look, I get it.  Transitioning is not easy, and there are lots of trials and tribulations for those who do it.  So why "penalize" these folks when they are already going through so much by taking something away from them that is obviously so important them (important enough to endure commentary like this - and far more severe, I'm sure)?

But like everything in life, policymaking is all about a balancing of interests.  And fairness.  And the needs of the many versus the needs of the few . . . or the one.  There is no hard and fast rule or recipe that spits out the optimal policy, as each issue has its own set of circumstances, interests, sense of fairness, numbers affected, etc..  

But here, the fairness coefficient and the numbers of benefitted versus adversely affected are just so out of whack that the correct policy seems pretty evident (at least from here).  And again, at least from the view of a father of a cis daughter who has worked hard to compete in her sport.

What records is Lia Thomas exactly breaking?

She broke a few UPenn records.  UPenn is not exactly a power house in their conference, and their conference is far from a powerhouse in swimming in general.  As we all know, they do not even offer athletic scholarships.  If most any Stanford swimmer were to join their team, they would tear up the school's record books. 

It comes off like people think she is smashing records left and right (by a biological advantage she is using to capitalize on). 

To put in perspective how Lia Thomas is doing this year, I have put her best times vs previous Stanford swimmers in all events.

50 Free

Lia Thomas          22.78

Simone Manuel     21.17
Lia Neal               21.65
Janet Hu              21.65
Plus many many more (she would not fall on the top 10 list for Stanford)


100 Free 

Lia Thomas          49.42

Simone Manuel     45.56
Taylor Ruck           46.76
Plus many many more (she would not fall into the top 10 at Stanford)

200 Free

Lia Thomas         1:41.93

Ledecky              1:40.36
Taylor Ruck         1:40.37
Simone Manuel    1:40.37


500 Free

Lia Thomas        4:34:06

Katie Ledecky.    4:24.06
Brooke Ford       4:31.34
Ella Eastin          4:32.89

1000 Free

Lia Thomas         9:35.96

Ledecky              9:05.89


1650 Free 

Lia Thomas         15:59.56

Ledecky              15:03.31
Plus 5 more (she would be 7th on Stanford's list)

Furthermore, here is where she places in comparison to all times by women this year so far:

50 Free        Not listed in the top 100
100 Free      Not listed in the top 100
200 Free      First as of today
500 Free      First as of today by a hair
1000 Free    Not listed as being ranked
1650 Free    8th as of today

Summing it up, she has broken 3 school records at a mediocre (at best) swimming school.  She does have the fastest time in two events this year but both by a slim margin, and she has not swam those times consistently so definitely not guaranteed to win those evens (a la Ledecky while swimming).  In both the 200 and 500 free her average time from all meets would not even put her in the top 100 women in the country in either event.  She swam really well solely one time in each event but has not been able to do so consistently this season.  So, I really don't see how she is changing the landscape of women's swimming with her biological advantages.

What is the policy you're advocating?  It's okay for trans women to compete in sports if they don't break X amount of records at a school?  Nationally?  World level?  Don't score X amount of points/game?

I'm sure the former record holders at Penn are thrilled with her success, as is/are the woman/women who are not allowed to compete because Thomas took her/their spot, same with competitors at other schools who may have been edged out of any national qualifications.  

You get the point.

Why should Thomas's wishes/desires be afforded any greater consideration than theirs?

I don’t have a policy I feel is correct.  What we do have is the current policy and she has followed the rules.  And yet she is being villanized for it.  If those who have the power to change then decide to do so….well, I think she needs to follow those rules as well.  If she doesn’t follow them, then she shouldn’t be allowed to compete.