[triangle2]

We all see things differently, and that's OK. But from my perspective, the defenses that Stanford saw this year were "physical" and "packed in", but they were not "bully ball". That term has been thrown around on this board, but I don't agree at all that's what we're seeing in the evolution of the women's sport. I'd really appreciate if someone could show me some clips of what they mean by "bully ball". There aren't players getting clotheslined out there for goodness sake. Colorado is the team that comes up in this discussion a lot. That intimidating lineup of Jaylynn Sherod, Frieda Forman,  Kyndall Wetta, Quay Miller, and Aaronette Vonleh. Really? 

"Physical", in my book, is part of the game, and can be used strategically to take away advantages from other teams. And while it can be very frustrating to all of us to see our players not be able to overcome it, I don't think it's ruining the sport to see physical, packed in defenses. It's an age old strategy. I just wish we would have made more layups through the contact and we would have easily advanced in the tourney.

Exhibit A: Hollingshed vs. Brink last year in the Pac-12 tournament. And, since we’re on the Colorado topic, Wetta did pick up a post-game technical this season for tossing the ball at an opposing player after the game had ended.

If you watched a lot of 90’s ball, then you remember the old ASU swiping hands to the face defense that Charli Turner-Thorne implemented with success until…the technique was essentially banned. There was a fair amount of aggressive 1v1 defending, particularly by guards on top. 

I see something different now. The inside play has gotten considerably more physical, the post players are bigger/taller, and the wings are also bigger but with the same skill sets that the smaller wings used to have. We also have a return of the swiping guards, but instead of hands to the face, there is a lot of chopping at the ball, arm grabbing, and bodying up. I don’t like the way the game is heading, because teams are essentially challenging the referees to make the calls, and we all know that the average quality of a college women’s ref is honestly bad. So, teams are operating on the assumption that they’ll get away with a lot of physical play and so, you end up with teams that just play very roughly.

If you want to look at teams that play consistently over the line, Colorado is a fair example in the conference. They lost Hollingshed inside, but Sherrod is a grabber/swiper who seems to be constantly daring the refs to blow the whistle. Outside of the conference, Texas is a repeat offender. If you saw last years Texas games, there was a fair amount of bully ball going on, including several instances of a Texas post player throwing a Stanford player to the floor (Lauren Ebo was a prime offender). That team has the added demerit for also playing unfairly on the offensive end. Schaefer teaches the posts to bring the off elbow high and swing it into the body of the defender when the post player is trying to turn. Taylor Jones (transferred to Texas from Oregon State) has also adopted the same high elbow technique.

Perfect, thanks t2. This is at the heart of the discussion. The Hollingshead/Brink scuffle was a heated event that happened after the play was over. Poor sportsmanship for sure. And it was Cam who threw the ball back in her face (which I loved) :> But I'm not looking for examples of bad sportsmanship or technicals or that sort of thing. Sportsmanship is a different thing altogether. 

Wrt examples of rough play that you provided, I honestly don't see them or understand what you mean. I don't really recall "several instances of a Texas player throwing a post player to the floor".  You say Sherrod is a grabber/swiper? What do you mean by that? She swipes at the ball? How is that being too rough? I just clicked through a bunch of the Colorado/Stanford game from Feb (it's on YouTube). It doesn't take long - love how easy it is to watch things on YouTube. Can you go to the video and pick out a few plays that are examples of what you're seeing as bully-ball?  I sincerely am trying to understand.

I’m not sure I would entirely agree with you on Hollingshed v. Brink. Hollingshed’s hand shoving into Brink’s face after Brink stole the ball, plus her shoving away Lacie - both of those actions were within the scope of play. What got recreational was the fact that Hollingshed refused to disengage and Brink retaliated.

You asked for examples. From memory, a game to watch is the first Texas v. Stanford game in November 2021. I haven’t managed to rewatch that recently. But, I can start a list of the things that I think are worth you reviewing here:

Texas v. Stanford in the 2022 NCAA Tournament: 
1. Ebo on offense with 7:45 to go in Q2. Ebo turns shoulder into Belibi on offense. Probably a venal sin but illustrates the physicality.
2. At 3:19 in the 2nd, Ebo clotheslines Lacie - no foul called.
3. At 1:36 in the 3rd, Ebo does the high elbow turn into Brink’s body - there are much more vivid examples of this move in the November game IIRC. Brink blocks Ebo!!
4. At 1:26 in the 3rd, Ebo retaliates on defense, shoves Brink to the floor.
It is also noteworthy that Brink picked up a foul in this game for shoving a Texas player out of the way in the key.

The Sherrod problem (using her as an example - I have nothing against her specifically) is that defenders are being allowed to use their arms to reach into the formerly protected space between the offensive player’s dribble hand and her body. As many recall from ancient memories of our own AAU ball days, that used to be a fairly automatic defensive foul. In the modern era, refs allow a considerable amount of reaching; now, the problem is that calling the foul becomes a judgment call where you never know if the refs are going to protect you. Perhaps this is why I’m seeing a resurgence of smaller, quick PGs with great ball skills. My perspective is that if the refs allow the reaching, then they need to make the call if the defender hits the offensive player’s arm/hand, if the defender’s horizontal arm extends (pushing off), or if more than de minimus physical contact occurs when the defender encroaches into the offensive player’s space.

Re-watching the Texas tournament game was helpful. You can see the difference between the Stanford lineup with the Hulls, and without. Lexie in particular could beat the close defender both by back cutting and by slashing to the basket. The 22-23 team simply lacked a slasher, and that really limited the team’s ability to beat Texas/Colorado style defense.

One wonders if some of the defensive slugfests in the tournament this year will result in some ‘points of emphasis’ for next season. I am guessing that the powers that be would rather see a free flowing high scoring game instead of some of the Elite 8 games where the teams struggle to get to over 50 points.

The coaching staff has to decide how to address the physicality. Brink gives as good as she gets, but this also results in her fouling out and sitting on the bench. The coaches have made these kind of changes before. In general over time, Stanford’s wings have gotten longer, and the guards have gotten more physical. (See e.g. the era of Jamilla Wideman and Milena Flores vs. Amber Orrange, Lepolo, etc.). I’m guessing that the staff has to look for more athleticism in the guard spots and more on-ball defensive tenacity without sacrificing offensive skills.

[triangle2]

We all see things differently, and that's OK. But from my perspective, the defenses that Stanford saw this year were "physical" and "packed in", but they were not "bully ball". That term has been thrown around on this board, but I don't agree at all that's what we're seeing in the evolution of the women's sport. I'd really appreciate if someone could show me some clips of what they mean by "bully ball". There aren't players getting clotheslined out there for goodness sake. Colorado is the team that comes up in this discussion a lot. That intimidating lineup of Jaylynn Sherod, Frieda Forman,  Kyndall Wetta, Quay Miller, and Aaronette Vonleh. Really? 

"Physical", in my book, is part of the game, and can be used strategically to take away advantages from other teams. And while it can be very frustrating to all of us to see our players not be able to overcome it, I don't think it's ruining the sport to see physical, packed in defenses. It's an age old strategy. I just wish we would have made more layups through the contact and we would have easily advanced in the tourney.

Exhibit A: Hollingshed vs. Brink last year in the Pac-12 tournament. And, since we’re on the Colorado topic, Wetta did pick up a post-game technical this season for tossing the ball at an opposing player after the game had ended.

If you watched a lot of 90’s ball, then you remember the old ASU swiping hands to the face defense that Charli Turner-Thorne implemented with success until…the technique was essentially banned. There was a fair amount of aggressive 1v1 defending, particularly by guards on top. 

I see something different now. The inside play has gotten considerably more physical, the post players are bigger/taller, and the wings are also bigger but with the same skill sets that the smaller wings used to have. We also have a return of the swiping guards, but instead of hands to the face, there is a lot of chopping at the ball, arm grabbing, and bodying up. I don’t like the way the game is heading, because teams are essentially challenging the referees to make the calls, and we all know that the average quality of a college women’s ref is honestly bad. So, teams are operating on the assumption that they’ll get away with a lot of physical play and so, you end up with teams that just play very roughly.

If you want to look at teams that play consistently over the line, Colorado is a fair example in the conference. They lost Hollingshed inside, but Sherrod is a grabber/swiper who seems to be constantly daring the refs to blow the whistle. Outside of the conference, Texas is a repeat offender. If you saw last years Texas games, there was a fair amount of bully ball going on, including several instances of a Texas post player throwing a Stanford player to the floor (Lauren Ebo was a prime offender). That team has the added demerit for also playing unfairly on the offensive end. Schaefer teaches the posts to bring the off elbow high and swing it into the body of the defender when the post player is trying to turn. Taylor Jones (transferred to Texas from Oregon State) has also adopted the same high elbow technique.

Perfect, thanks t2. This is at the heart of the discussion. The Hollingshead/Brink scuffle was a heated event that happened after the play was over. Poor sportsmanship for sure. And it was Cam who threw the ball back in her face (which I loved) :> But I'm not looking for examples of bad sportsmanship or technicals or that sort of thing. Sportsmanship is a different thing altogether. 

Wrt examples of rough play that you provided, I honestly don't see them or understand what you mean. I don't really recall "several instances of a Texas player throwing a post player to the floor".  You say Sherrod is a grabber/swiper? What do you mean by that? She swipes at the ball? How is that being too rough? I just clicked through a bunch of the Colorado/Stanford game from Feb (it's on YouTube). It doesn't take long - love how easy it is to watch things on YouTube. Can you go to the video and pick out a few plays that are examples of what you're seeing as bully-ball?  I sincerely am trying to understand.

I’m not sure I would entirely agree with you on Hollingshed v. Brink. Hollingshed’s hand shoving into Brink’s face after Brink stole the ball, plus her shoving away Lacie - both of those actions were within the scope of play. What got recreational was the fact that Hollingshed refused to disengage and Brink retaliated.

You asked for examples. From memory, a game to watch is the first Texas v. Stanford game in November 2021. I haven’t managed to rewatch that recently. But, I can start a list of the things that I think are worth you reviewing here:

Texas v. Stanford in the 2022 NCAA Tournament: 
1. Ebo on offense with 7:45 to go in Q2. Ebo turns shoulder into Belibi on offense. Probably a venal sin but illustrates the physicality.
2. At 3:19 in the 2nd, Ebo clotheslines Lacie - no foul called.
3. At 1:36 in the 3rd, Ebo does the high elbow turn into Brink’s body - there are much more vivid examples of this move in the November game IIRC. Brink blocks Ebo!!
4. At 1:26 in the 3rd, Ebo retaliates on defense, shoves Brink to the floor.
It is also noteworthy that Brink picked up a foul in this game for shoving a Texas player out of the way in the key.

The Sherrod problem (using her as an example - I have nothing against her specifically) is that defenders are being allowed to use their arms to reach into the formerly protected space between the offensive player’s dribble hand and her body. As many recall from ancient memories of our own AAU ball days, that used to be a fairly automatic defensive foul. In the modern era, refs allow a considerable amount of reaching; now, the problem is that calling the foul becomes a judgment call where you never know if the refs are going to protect you. Perhaps this is why I’m seeing a resurgence of smaller, quick PGs with great ball skills. My perspective is that if the refs allow the reaching, then they need to make the call if the defender hits the offensive player’s arm/hand, if the defender’s horizontal arm extends (pushing off), or if more than de minimus physical contact occurs when the defender encroaches into the offensive player’s space.

Re-watching the Texas tournament game was helpful. You can see the difference between the Stanford lineup with the Hulls, and without. Lexie in particular could beat the close defender both by back cutting and by slashing to the basket. The 22-23 team simply lacked a slasher, and that really limited the team’s ability to beat Texas/Colorado style defense.

One wonders if some of the defensive slugfests in the tournament this year will result in some ‘points of emphasis’ for next season. I am guessing that the powers that be would rather see a free flowing high scoring game instead of some of the Elite 8 games where the teams struggle to get to over 50 points.

The coaching staff has to decide how to address the physicality. Brink gives as good as she gets, but this also results in her fouling out and sitting on the bench. The coaches have made these kind of changes before. In general over time, Stanford’s wings have gotten longer, and the guards have gotten more physical. (See e.g. the era of Jamilla Wideman and Milena Flores vs. Amber Orrange, Lepolo, etc.). I’m guessing that the staff has to look for more athleticism in the guard spots and more on-ball defensive tenacity without sacrificing offensive skills.