[BillBradley]

[quote="triangle2" pid='386819' dateline='1679967682']
[quote="BillBradley" pid='386813' dateline='1679965553']

We all see things differently, and that's OK. But from my perspective, the defenses that Stanford saw this year were "physical" and "packed in", but they were not "bully ball". That term has been thrown around on this board, but I don't agree at all that's what we're seeing in the evolution of the women's sport. I'd really appreciate if someone could show me some clips of what they mean by "bully ball". There aren't players getting clotheslined out there for goodness sake. Colorado is the team that comes up in this discussion a lot. That intimidating lineup of Jaylynn Sherod, Frieda Forman,  Kyndall Wetta, Quay Miller, and Aaronette Vonleh. Really? 

"Physical", in my book, is part of the game, and can be used strategically to take away advantages from other teams. And while it can be very frustrating to all of us to see our players not be able to overcome it, I don't think it's ruining the sport to see physical, packed in defenses. It's an age old strategy. I just wish we would have made more layups through the contact and we would have easily advanced in the tourney.

You asked for examples. From memory, a game to watch is the first Texas v. Stanford game in November 2021. I haven’t managed to rewatch that recently. But, I can start a list of the things that I think are worth you reviewing here:

Texas v. Stanford in the 2022 NCAA Tournament: 
1. Ebo on offense with 7:45 to go in Q2. Ebo turns shoulder into Belibi on offense. Probably a venal sin but illustrates the physicality.
2. At 3:19 in the 2nd, Ebo clotheslines Lacie - no foul called.
3. At 1:36 in the 3rd, Ebo does the high elbow turn into Brink’s body - there are much more vivid examples of this move in the November game IIRC. Brink blocks Ebo!!
4. At 1:26 in the 3rd, Ebo retaliates on defense, shoves Brink to the floor.
It is also noteworthy that Brink picked up a foul in this game for shoving a Texas player out of the way in the key.

The Sherrod problem (using her as an example - I have nothing against her specifically) is that defenders are being allowed to use their arms to reach into the formerly protected space between the offensive player’s dribble hand and her body. As many recall from ancient memories of our own AAU ball days, that used to be a fairly automatic defensive foul. In the modern era, refs allow a considerable amount of reaching; now, the problem is that calling the foul becomes a judgment call where you never know if the refs are going to protect you. Perhaps this is why I’m seeing a resurgence of smaller, quick PGs with great ball skills. My perspective is that if the refs allow the reaching, then they need to make the call if the defender hits the offensive player’s arm/hand, if the defender’s horizontal arm extends (pushing off), or if more than de minimus physical contact occurs when the defender encroaches into the offensive player’s space.

Re-watching the Texas tournament game was helpful. You can see the difference between the Stanford lineup with the Hulls, and without. Lexie in particular could beat the close defender both by back cutting and by slashing to the basket. The 22-23 team simply lacked a slasher, and that really limited the team’s ability to beat Texas/Colorado style defense.

One wonders if some of the defensive slugfests in the tournament this year will result in some ‘points of emphasis’ for next season. I am guessing that the powers that be would rather see a free flowing high scoring game instead of some of the Elite 8 games where the teams struggle to get to over 50 points.

The coaching staff has to decide how to address the physicality. Brink gives as good as she gets, but this also results in her fouling out and sitting on the bench. The coaches have made these kind of changes before. In general over time, Stanford’s wings have gotten longer, and the guards have gotten more physical. (See e.g. the era of Jamilla Wideman and Milena Flores vs. Amber Orrange, Lepolo, etc.). I’m guessing that the staff has to look for more athleticism in the guard spots and more on-ball defensive tenacity without sacrificing offensive skills.

Thanks much. That helps a ton to understand the type of play you're talking about. I think what I've learned is that I don't react to plays like that at all, largely because I accept them as being part of the game. Maybe I don't see a men's game and a women's game, I just see "basketball". Perhaps that explains it and perhaps I should look at them through different lenses.  Every one of those plays you cited, I had very little reaction to and don't see them as part of a bad evolution of the game. Same with Sherrod's play. Again, everyone sees things differently and that's totally cool. I'm not accusing or judging at all. I just now understand better what folks (or at least you) are talking about. In the end, opposing coaches are going to do whatever they can to get wins. Whether it's Dean Smith's 4-corners or Paul Westhead's pace or JR Paynes aggressive defenses, the game is going to continue to evolve and if it's anything like the men's game it's going to just get more physical.

Quick follow-on, doesn't Cam play like a lot of these other players? She pushes, and hacks and throws players to the ground most every game. I know you said she gives as good as she gets and has to sit because of fouls, but wouldn't we be happy with a team composed of a players with Cam's style of play?  

I wholeheartedly agree w/your comment about the Hulls and how our team this season didn't have anyone who played like that. It is great to watch that team again - totally makes me grin ear to ear - and it's a reminder of what Haley can do with those types of players around her. Really, the only player on this year's team that had the skills and inclination of a slasher was Bosgana. Still scratching my head about her lack of PT this year in favor of other players who were less inclined to attack.

[BillBradley]

[quote="triangle2" pid='386819' dateline='1679967682']
[quote="BillBradley" pid='386813' dateline='1679965553']

We all see things differently, and that's OK. But from my perspective, the defenses that Stanford saw this year were "physical" and "packed in", but they were not "bully ball". That term has been thrown around on this board, but I don't agree at all that's what we're seeing in the evolution of the women's sport. I'd really appreciate if someone could show me some clips of what they mean by "bully ball". There aren't players getting clotheslined out there for goodness sake. Colorado is the team that comes up in this discussion a lot. That intimidating lineup of Jaylynn Sherod, Frieda Forman,  Kyndall Wetta, Quay Miller, and Aaronette Vonleh. Really? 

"Physical", in my book, is part of the game, and can be used strategically to take away advantages from other teams. And while it can be very frustrating to all of us to see our players not be able to overcome it, I don't think it's ruining the sport to see physical, packed in defenses. It's an age old strategy. I just wish we would have made more layups through the contact and we would have easily advanced in the tourney.

You asked for examples. From memory, a game to watch is the first Texas v. Stanford game in November 2021. I haven’t managed to rewatch that recently. But, I can start a list of the things that I think are worth you reviewing here:

Texas v. Stanford in the 2022 NCAA Tournament: 
1. Ebo on offense with 7:45 to go in Q2. Ebo turns shoulder into Belibi on offense. Probably a venal sin but illustrates the physicality.
2. At 3:19 in the 2nd, Ebo clotheslines Lacie - no foul called.
3. At 1:36 in the 3rd, Ebo does the high elbow turn into Brink’s body - there are much more vivid examples of this move in the November game IIRC. Brink blocks Ebo!!
4. At 1:26 in the 3rd, Ebo retaliates on defense, shoves Brink to the floor.
It is also noteworthy that Brink picked up a foul in this game for shoving a Texas player out of the way in the key.

The Sherrod problem (using her as an example - I have nothing against her specifically) is that defenders are being allowed to use their arms to reach into the formerly protected space between the offensive player’s dribble hand and her body. As many recall from ancient memories of our own AAU ball days, that used to be a fairly automatic defensive foul. In the modern era, refs allow a considerable amount of reaching; now, the problem is that calling the foul becomes a judgment call where you never know if the refs are going to protect you. Perhaps this is why I’m seeing a resurgence of smaller, quick PGs with great ball skills. My perspective is that if the refs allow the reaching, then they need to make the call if the defender hits the offensive player’s arm/hand, if the defender’s horizontal arm extends (pushing off), or if more than de minimus physical contact occurs when the defender encroaches into the offensive player’s space.

Re-watching the Texas tournament game was helpful. You can see the difference between the Stanford lineup with the Hulls, and without. Lexie in particular could beat the close defender both by back cutting and by slashing to the basket. The 22-23 team simply lacked a slasher, and that really limited the team’s ability to beat Texas/Colorado style defense.

One wonders if some of the defensive slugfests in the tournament this year will result in some ‘points of emphasis’ for next season. I am guessing that the powers that be would rather see a free flowing high scoring game instead of some of the Elite 8 games where the teams struggle to get to over 50 points.

The coaching staff has to decide how to address the physicality. Brink gives as good as she gets, but this also results in her fouling out and sitting on the bench. The coaches have made these kind of changes before. In general over time, Stanford’s wings have gotten longer, and the guards have gotten more physical. (See e.g. the era of Jamilla Wideman and Milena Flores vs. Amber Orrange, Lepolo, etc.). I’m guessing that the staff has to look for more athleticism in the guard spots and more on-ball defensive tenacity without sacrificing offensive skills.

Thanks much. That helps a ton to understand the type of play you're talking about. I think what I've learned is that I don't react to plays like that at all, largely because I accept them as being part of the game. Maybe I don't see a men's game and a women's game, I just see "basketball". Perhaps that explains it and perhaps I should look at them through different lenses.  Every one of those plays you cited, I had very little reaction to and don't see them as part of a bad evolution of the game. Same with Sherrod's play. Again, everyone sees things differently and that's totally cool. I'm not accusing or judging at all. I just now understand better what folks (or at least you) are talking about. In the end, opposing coaches are going to do whatever they can to get wins. Whether it's Dean Smith's 4-corners or Paul Westhead's pace or JR Paynes aggressive defenses, the game is going to continue to evolve and if it's anything like the men's game it's going to just get more physical.

Quick follow-on, doesn't Cam play like a lot of these other players? She pushes, and hacks and throws players to the ground most every game. I know you said she gives as good as she gets and has to sit because of fouls, but wouldn't we be happy with a team composed of a players with Cam's style of play?  

I wholeheartedly agree w/your comment about the Hulls and how our team this season didn't have anyone who played like that. It is great to watch that team again - totally makes me grin ear to ear - and it's a reminder of what Haley can do with those types of players around her. Really, the only player on this year's team that had the skills and inclination of a slasher was Bosgana. Still scratching my head about her lack of PT this year in favor of other players who were less inclined to attack.