[Mick]

First, let me state that I don't care what the virus is called, although SARS-Cov-2 is fine by me. I hate that people of Asian descent face discrimination and worse thanks to this virus and the reactions of bigots.  I lament the lack of preparation and slow reactions at the Federal, state and local level.  I am encouraged by heroic doctors, PAs, nurses, EMTs and other medical professionals who are working overtime in every country and at great personal risk to themselves.  I mourn the thousands of American dead, the hundreds of thousands infected here and the tens of millions of lives who have been upended because they lost their jobs and have inadequate resources to live while dealing with this virus.

Dangerous infections can happen anywhere at any time.  The swine flu or A/H1N1 virus started in Mexico, the first known case of the Spanish flu was at a military base in Kansas.  This particular infection started and spread in China.  In the main, no one gets infected or infects other people on purpose, and the medical establishment of each country generally informs each other as quickly as possible about the status of viruses and expects (and usually receives) reciprocity.

That did not happen with China.  The Chinese government obfuscated the origins, deflected or exaggerated early negative signs, and hid the results of this pandemic to the extent that it negatively impacted other countries in a very significant way.  I don't think there's any question that the Chinese government wasn't forthcoming; even today, it is clearly obvious that they aren't releasing accurate data.

I have two questions:

1) Is the Chinese government responsible for the rapid rise and spread of this pandemic, thereby causing the results listed above?
2) If so, will they be held to account?  How?

[Mick]

First, let me state that I don't care what the virus is called, although SARS-Cov-2 is fine by me. I hate that people of Asian descent face discrimination and worse thanks to this virus and the reactions of bigots.  I lament the lack of preparation and slow reactions at the Federal, state and local level.  I am encouraged by heroic doctors, PAs, nurses, EMTs and other medical professionals who are working overtime in every country and at great personal risk to themselves.  I mourn the thousands of American dead, the hundreds of thousands infected here and the tens of millions of lives who have been upended because they lost their jobs and have inadequate resources to live while dealing with this virus.

Dangerous infections can happen anywhere at any time.  The swine flu or A/H1N1 virus started in Mexico, the first known case of the Spanish flu was at a military base in Kansas.  This particular infection started and spread in China.  In the main, no one gets infected or infects other people on purpose, and the medical establishment of each country generally informs each other as quickly as possible about the status of viruses and expects (and usually receives) reciprocity.

That did not happen with China.  The Chinese government obfuscated the origins, deflected or exaggerated early negative signs, and hid the results of this pandemic to the extent that it negatively impacted other countries in a very significant way.  I don't think there's any question that the Chinese government wasn't forthcoming; even today, it is clearly obvious that they aren't releasing accurate data.

I have two questions:

1) Is the Chinese government responsible for the rapid rise and spread of this pandemic, thereby causing the results listed above?
2) If so, will they be held to account?  How?

[2006alum]

Hah. There are probably 5 threads in the last week that addressed this. It's like whack-a-whataboutism.

[2006alum]

Hah. There are probably 5 threads in the last week that addressed this. It's like whack-a-whataboutism.

[Snorlax94]

That’s an international question, and I think, one no one can really do anything about. One issue is no one has jurisdiction. Another is that it takes years for all the facts to come out. Another issue is that many countries (like Iceland) did just fine.

To me the question is, if some Americans were lulled into behavior because they were misled by certain media companies that Covid was “just a flu” or a “hoax,” even as executives from those same companies were taking personal precautions, could those media companies be held liable? If someone decided to attend Mardi Grad on the basis of recklessly misleading stories, can those media companies be sued for the resulting illnesses, loss of life, and economic damages??? The damages are in the trillions of dollars, it would be the Mother of All Lawsuits. As information emerges about media executives selling stock and protecting themselves, while telling the public (to whom they could have been unloading their stock holdings) it was a “hoax,” could the lawyers start salivating?

[Snorlax94]

That’s an international question, and I think, one no one can really do anything about. One issue is no one has jurisdiction. Another is that it takes years for all the facts to come out. Another issue is that many countries (like Iceland) did just fine.

To me the question is, if some Americans were lulled into behavior because they were misled by certain media companies that Covid was “just a flu” or a “hoax,” even as executives from those same companies were taking personal precautions, could those media companies be held liable? If someone decided to attend Mardi Grad on the basis of recklessly misleading stories, can those media companies be sued for the resulting illnesses, loss of life, and economic damages??? The damages are in the trillions of dollars, it would be the Mother of All Lawsuits. As information emerges about media executives selling stock and protecting themselves, while telling the public (to whom they could have been unloading their stock holdings) it was a “hoax,” could the lawyers start salivating?

[magnus]

SARS came from China too.  And they similarly (or more egregiously?) tried to hide it.

Was there any consequence? (I didn't follow it at all)

[magnus]

SARS came from China too.  And they similarly (or more egregiously?) tried to hide it.

Was there any consequence? (I didn't follow it at all)

[chrisk]

Navarro, that famous economist in the White House, wrote a memo in January outlining how damaging the Coronavirus could be to the US. Trump responded by reducing flights from China, but not shutting them done. Then he went on for more than the month telling tjphe American people that it was a hoax or that it was under control.

Taiwan realized the severity of the problem by monitoring social media in early January and sent 2 health officials to Wuhan to get first hand information. They were taking strong steps to control the virus in Taiwan by January 20.

How is China liable for Trump’s malfeasance? Navarro and Taiwan would say that The human toll in the US is Trump’s responsibility? What could China have done to make Trump competent?

[chrisk]

Navarro, that famous economist in the White House, wrote a memo in January outlining how damaging the Coronavirus could be to the US. Trump responded by reducing flights from China, but not shutting them done. Then he went on for more than the month telling tjphe American people that it was a hoax or that it was under control.

Taiwan realized the severity of the problem by monitoring social media in early January and sent 2 health officials to Wuhan to get first hand information. They were taking strong steps to control the virus in Taiwan by January 20.

How is China liable for Trump’s malfeasance? Navarro and Taiwan would say that The human toll in the US is Trump’s responsibility? What could China have done to make Trump competent?

[BostonCard]

Is that a legal question?  I don't believe sovereign nations can be held liable for negligence unless you can claim a statutory exemption to jurisdictional immunity.  Someone who knows this better than I do can answer that.

BC

[BostonCard]

Is that a legal question?  I don't believe sovereign nations can be held liable for negligence unless you can claim a statutory exemption to jurisdictional immunity.  Someone who knows this better than I do can answer that.

BC

[cardcrimson]

Navarro, that famous economist in the White House, wrote a memo in January outlining how damaging the Coronavirus could be to the US.  Trump responded by reducing flights from China, but not shutting them done.  Then he went on for more than the month telling tjphe American people that it was a hoax or that it was under control.

Taiwan realized the severity of the problem by monitoring social media in early January and sent 2 health officials to Wuhan to get first hand information.  They were taking strong steps to control the virus in Taiwan by January 20.

How is China liable for Trump’s malfeasance?  Navarro and Taiwan would say that The human toll in the US is Trump’s responsibility?  What could China have done to make Trump competent?

I believe the question Mick is asking, does China have culpability for the pandemic because of their alleged coverup and obfuscation and if so what recourse is there. As this is a global issue, I don't understand why Trump has any responsibility for what has happened in Italy, Spain, Iran, France, the UK, and the rest of the world. 

Take the US out of it. Do those countries and their citizens have any claim against China, and if so what global recourse should there be?

[cardcrimson]

Navarro, that famous economist in the White House, wrote a memo in January outlining how damaging the Coronavirus could be to the US.  Trump responded by reducing flights from China, but not shutting them done.  Then he went on for more than the month telling tjphe American people that it was a hoax or that it was under control.

Taiwan realized the severity of the problem by monitoring social media in early January and sent 2 health officials to Wuhan to get first hand information.  They were taking strong steps to control the virus in Taiwan by January 20.

How is China liable for Trump’s malfeasance?  Navarro and Taiwan would say that The human toll in the US is Trump’s responsibility?  What could China have done to make Trump competent?

I believe the question Mick is asking, does China have culpability for the pandemic because of their alleged coverup and obfuscation and if so what recourse is there. As this is a global issue, I don't understand why Trump has any responsibility for what has happened in Italy, Spain, Iran, France, the UK, and the rest of the world. 

Take the US out of it. Do those countries and their citizens have any claim against China, and if so what global recourse should there be?

[terry]

Is that a legal question?  I don't believe sovereign nations can be held liable for negligence unless you can claim a statutory exemption to jurisdictional immunity.  Someone who knows this better than I do can answer that.

BC

I believe BC is correct. As I understand it, foreign nations generally have sovereign immunity and cannot be held liable in U.S. courts. There are some exceptions, such as cases in which a foreign nation is a party to commercial activities. But I doubt that any of those exceptions would apply here. However, I haven't researched it. Maybe someone else knows more.

[terry]

Is that a legal question?  I don't believe sovereign nations can be held liable for negligence unless you can claim a statutory exemption to jurisdictional immunity.  Someone who knows this better than I do can answer that.

BC

I believe BC is correct. As I understand it, foreign nations generally have sovereign immunity and cannot be held liable in U.S. courts. There are some exceptions, such as cases in which a foreign nation is a party to commercial activities. But I doubt that any of those exceptions would apply here. However, I haven't researched it. Maybe someone else knows more.

[BostonCard]

I believe the answer is "no" under international law because sovereigns generally enjoy immunity.

As a practical matter, the answer is also "no", because if they complain China can just tell them to pound sand.

BC

[BostonCard]

I believe the answer is "no" under international law because sovereigns generally enjoy immunity.

As a practical matter, the answer is also "no", because if they complain China can just tell them to pound sand.

BC

[chrisk]

I believe the answer is "no" under international law because sovereigns generally enjoy immunity.

As a practical matter, the answer is also "no", because if they complain China can just tell them to pound sand.

BC

Senator Graham is going to do everything in his power to punish China and defund WHO. We’ll see how successful he is. (By the way, today is WHO day. They used to subsidize all births on this day in developing countries).

[chrisk]

I believe the answer is "no" under international law because sovereigns generally enjoy immunity.

As a practical matter, the answer is also "no", because if they complain China can just tell them to pound sand.

BC

Senator Graham is going to do everything in his power to punish China and defund WHO. We’ll see how successful he is. (By the way, today is WHO day. They used to subsidize all births on this day in developing countries).

[Snorlax94]

Did anyone else listen in on the Stanford Covid and AI conference last week? I know it was open to staff and alums in fields related to AI.

One of the panelists was asked about the various rumors going around the world. Russia, like they did in the 80s spreading rumors globally that the CIA created AIDS, is again spreading rumors about the US. In Iran, the leadership is saying that the US specifically engineered Covid to harm Iranian DNA, and THAT is why Iran was suffering so greatly.

One might hear the story about Iran and think, how could Iranians become such obvious tools by their government, helping to deflect attention from their own government’s obvious failures? Are Iranians really so gullible and such blind, sad, loyal followers of their leadership?

The main point was that all state-sponsored finger pointing was designed to shift blame and distract from the failures of many governments, even though obviously many competent countries have done a much better job.

The point of state-driven finger-pointing is to distract from the incompetence, incorrect decisions, failures, corruption, slow response, and nepotism from a country’s leadership, from Itay’s, from the UK’s, from Iran’s, from the US’s.

[Snorlax94]

Did anyone else listen in on the Stanford Covid and AI conference last week? I know it was open to staff and alums in fields related to AI.

One of the panelists was asked about the various rumors going around the world. Russia, like they did in the 80s spreading rumors globally that the CIA created AIDS, is again spreading rumors about the US. In Iran, the leadership is saying that the US specifically engineered Covid to harm Iranian DNA, and THAT is why Iran was suffering so greatly.

One might hear the story about Iran and think, how could Iranians become such obvious tools by their government, helping to deflect attention from their own government’s obvious failures? Are Iranians really so gullible and such blind, sad, loyal followers of their leadership?

The main point was that all state-sponsored finger pointing was designed to shift blame and distract from the failures of many governments, even though obviously many competent countries have done a much better job.

The point of state-driven finger-pointing is to distract from the incompetence, incorrect decisions, failures, corruption, slow response, and nepotism from a country’s leadership, from Itay’s, from the UK’s, from Iran’s, from the US’s.

[cardcrimson]

There was a discussion somewhere about the UN or the Hague or some international body potentially revoking China's sovereignty claim ability in light of the pandemic and their alleged failure to fully disclose the extent of the crisis. That will never happen, of course, and China won't ever settle or admit wrongdoing, either. 

The question remains, will the global community punish China, and if so, how?

[cardcrimson]

There was a discussion somewhere about the UN or the Hague or some international body potentially revoking China's sovereignty claim ability in light of the pandemic and their alleged failure to fully disclose the extent of the crisis. That will never happen, of course, and China won't ever settle or admit wrongdoing, either. 

The question remains, will the global community punish China, and if so, how?

[dabigv13]

China took drastic, unprecedented actions to stop this thing, and in doing so bought the rest of the world time. We haven't even come close to the measures they took. I wish they let our inspectors in sooner, but seems silly to think that would have changed anything. 

The only purpose in blaming China is to shift responsibility to a menacing bogeyman, when we have ample evidence of our own mistakes.

[dabigv13]

China took drastic, unprecedented actions to stop this thing, and in doing so bought the rest of the world time. We haven't even come close to the measures they took. I wish they let our inspectors in sooner, but seems silly to think that would have changed anything. 

The only purpose in blaming China is to shift responsibility to a menacing bogeyman, when we have ample evidence of our own mistakes.

[cardcrimson]

China took drastic, unprecedented actions to stop this thing, and in doing so bought the rest of the world time. We haven't even come close to the measures they took. I wish they let our inspectors in sooner, but seems silly to think that would have changed anything. 

The only purpose in blaming China is to shift responsibility to a menacing bogeyman, when we have ample evidence of our own mistakes.

So, the government of China was completely open and upfront with regards to the virus and relayed factual information to the global community from the outset. They took drastic unprecedented actions to stop it's spread and should be praised by the global community for their government's heroic efforts.

Can't wait to see the ticker tape parade for the CCP contingent next time they visit the UN, or the Hague. It'll be a hoot.

[cardcrimson]

China took drastic, unprecedented actions to stop this thing, and in doing so bought the rest of the world time. We haven't even come close to the measures they took. I wish they let our inspectors in sooner, but seems silly to think that would have changed anything. 

The only purpose in blaming China is to shift responsibility to a menacing bogeyman, when we have ample evidence of our own mistakes.

So, the government of China was completely open and upfront with regards to the virus and relayed factual information to the global community from the outset. They took drastic unprecedented actions to stop it's spread and should be praised by the global community for their government's heroic efforts.

Can't wait to see the ticker tape parade for the CCP contingent next time they visit the UN, or the Hague. It'll be a hoot.

[dabigv13]

People fled the United State for China because they felt safer from the virus there. Pretty pathetic for the global hegemon to be outdone by an authoritarian communist thug state. But again, that just says more about us than them.

[dabigv13]

People fled the United State for China because they felt safer from the virus there. Pretty pathetic for the global hegemon to be outdone by an authoritarian communist thug state. But again, that just says more about us than them.

[Leftcoast]

There's nothing like an outside bogeyman to unite the masses and I expect that's the desired goal behind the recent "Blame China"/China Virus push. 

However, playing the helpless victim is bad posturing, we must fix our own problems before blaming our woes on someone else.  If anyone saw the news coming out of China in January and early February and didn't see a pandemic coming they need better glasses. In my small social media world it is the same people who claimed it was all a hoax three weeks ago who are trumpeting the "blame China" theory now.

[Leftcoast]

There's nothing like an outside bogeyman to unite the masses and I expect that's the desired goal behind the recent "Blame China"/China Virus push. 

However, playing the helpless victim is bad posturing, we must fix our own problems before blaming our woes on someone else.  If anyone saw the news coming out of China in January and early February and didn't see a pandemic coming they need better glasses. In my small social media world it is the same people who claimed it was all a hoax three weeks ago who are trumpeting the "blame China" theory now.

[cardcrimson]

People fled the United State for China because they felt safer from the virus there. Pretty pathetic for the global hegemon to be outdone by an authoritarian communist thug state. But again, that just says more about us than them.

Link please showing the details regarding people fleeing the US for China.

Pretty common knowledge that 10,000 people a day were flying from China to the US during January, with 40,000 more Americans fleeing China after the travel ban.

[cardcrimson]

People fled the United State for China because they felt safer from the virus there. Pretty pathetic for the global hegemon to be outdone by an authoritarian communist thug state. But again, that just says more about us than them.

Link please showing the details regarding people fleeing the US for China.

Pretty common knowledge that 10,000 people a day were flying from China to the US during January, with 40,000 more Americans fleeing China after the travel ban.

[magnus]

No reason we can't blame more than one entity. 

China,  WHO, CDC, White House top my evolving list.

[magnus]

No reason we can't blame more than one entity. 

China,  WHO, CDC, White House top my evolving list.

[cardcrimson]

No reason we can't blame more than one entity. 

China,  WHO, CDC, White House top my evolving list.

Agree with that, though still don't understand what the White House and the CDC had to do with the crises in Europe.

[cardcrimson]

No reason we can't blame more than one entity. 

China,  WHO, CDC, White House top my evolving list.

Agree with that, though still don't understand what the White House and the CDC had to do with the crises in Europe.

[magnus]

No reason we can't blame more than one entity. 

China,  WHO, CDC, White House top my evolving list.

Agree with that, though still don't understand what the White House and the CDC had to do with the crises in Europe.

I don't think anyone (here at least) is blaming the White House or the CDC for Europe.

[magnus]

No reason we can't blame more than one entity. 

China,  WHO, CDC, White House top my evolving list.

Agree with that, though still don't understand what the White House and the CDC had to do with the crises in Europe.

I don't think anyone (here at least) is blaming the White House or the CDC for Europe.