[Phogge]

Pretty much gets it. Tough on the OLB's and Wade-Perry who really can't tackle. Critical of clock management but we've known for ten years that Shaw is a sloppy clock manager. For a coach with a 1,000 play, or so, book why do they continue to repeat plays that just don't work with their personnel. Also calls it correctly on Antoine and Williamson who can't stay with speed and never have. What a mess.

[Phogge]

Pretty much gets it. Tough on the OLB's and Wade-Perry who really can't tackle. Critical of clock management but we've known for ten years that Shaw is a sloppy clock manager. For a coach with a 1,000 play, or so, book why do they continue to repeat plays that just don't work with their personnel. Also calls it correctly on Antoine and Williamson who can't stay with speed and never have. What a mess.

[Brickcity]

Pretty much gets it. Tough on the OLB's and Wade-Perry who really can't tackle. Critical of clock management but we've known for ten years that Shaw is a sloppy clock manager. For a coach with a 1,000 play, or so, book why do they continue to repeat plays that just don't work with their personnel. Also calls it correctly on Antoine and Williamson who can't stay with speed and never have. What a mess.

I can't fathom a realistic scenario where Shaw turns the program around. Doing so would require him bringing in new offensive and defensive coordinators and letting them hire assistants. Moreover, he'd have to get out of the way of the offensive coordinator. Does anyone believe Shaw is willing to take these measures? Hey, it could happen, but I'm not expecting him to do so. Even though it would clearly be in his own best interest to. 

As I think about it more, hiring new coordinators might not be enough. The guy running your program needs to be extremely competitive to win in the long-term and I don't think he is. As someone else pointed out, we don't appear to have tough competitors on our roster anymore. And, I think that has everything to do with a lack of that trait at the top.

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

[Brickcity]

Pretty much gets it. Tough on the OLB's and Wade-Perry who really can't tackle. Critical of clock management but we've known for ten years that Shaw is a sloppy clock manager. For a coach with a 1,000 play, or so, book why do they continue to repeat plays that just don't work with their personnel. Also calls it correctly on Antoine and Williamson who can't stay with speed and never have. What a mess.

I can't fathom a realistic scenario where Shaw turns the program around. Doing so would require him bringing in new offensive and defensive coordinators and letting them hire assistants. Moreover, he'd have to get out of the way of the offensive coordinator. Does anyone believe Shaw is willing to take these measures? Hey, it could happen, but I'm not expecting him to do so. Even though it would clearly be in his own best interest to. 

As I think about it more, hiring new coordinators might not be enough. The guy running your program needs to be extremely competitive to win in the long-term and I don't think he is. As someone else pointed out, we don't appear to have tough competitors on our roster anymore. And, I think that has everything to do with a lack of that trait at the top.

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

[winflop]

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

He's not going to get "a few years" if he doesn't make changes.

[winflop]

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

He's not going to get "a few years" if he doesn't make changes.

[Brickcity]

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

He's not going to get "a few years" if he doesn't make changes.

I hope you're right. Of course, we all know that Muir is a wet noodle. But, with a few consecutive losing seasons, maybe he'd ask Shaw nicely.

[Brickcity]

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

He's not going to get "a few years" if he doesn't make changes.

I hope you're right. Of course, we all know that Muir is a wet noodle. But, with a few consecutive losing seasons, maybe he'd ask Shaw nicely.

[BobK]

No we don't all know that Brick. Please don't include all in that statement.

[BobK]

No we don't all know that Brick. Please don't include all in that statement.

[winflop]

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

He's not going to get "a few years" if he doesn't make changes.

I hope you're right. Of course, we all know that Muir is a wet noodle. But, with a few consecutive losing seasons, maybe he'd ask Shaw nicely.

Money talks. When more people stop buying tickets Muir will pay more attention.

[winflop]

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

He's not going to get "a few years" if he doesn't make changes.

I hope you're right. Of course, we all know that Muir is a wet noodle. But, with a few consecutive losing seasons, maybe he'd ask Shaw nicely.

Money talks. When more people stop buying tickets Muir will pay more attention.

[teejers1]

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

He's not going to get "a few years" if he doesn't make changes.

I hope you're right. Of course, we all know that Muir is a wet noodle. But, with a few consecutive losing seasons, maybe he'd ask Shaw nicely.

Money talks. When more people stop buying tickets Muir will pay more attention.

1.  How much more leakage do you need to see before Muir realizes there is a problem?

2.  Shaw will 'retire' when, and only when, his last kid is a freshman in college.  That is 4 years away, IIRC.  And I disagree that he will be fired before then, no matter how badly the program continues to spiral down.  Didn't Muir just ink him to what amounts to a lifetime contract?  When will we start seeing public inquiries about that?!?

[teejers1]

Right now, if I had to guess, my sense is that the program will continue to struggle and in a few years he'll retire.

He's not going to get "a few years" if he doesn't make changes.

I hope you're right. Of course, we all know that Muir is a wet noodle. But, with a few consecutive losing seasons, maybe he'd ask Shaw nicely.

Money talks. When more people stop buying tickets Muir will pay more attention.

1.  How much more leakage do you need to see before Muir realizes there is a problem?

2.  Shaw will 'retire' when, and only when, his last kid is a freshman in college.  That is 4 years away, IIRC.  And I disagree that he will be fired before then, no matter how badly the program continues to spiral down.  Didn't Muir just ink him to what amounts to a lifetime contract?  When will we start seeing public inquiries about that?!?

[Phogge]

Bobbbb, like it or not there is something rotten in Denmark.

[Phogge]

Bobbbb, like it or not there is something rotten in Denmark.

[StanfordMatt]

It seems more likely than not that Vandy will move on from Mason at the end of the season. Would Shaw find a way to shuffle things around and bring him back to run the defense??? Would Mason even want to in a jobs cycle that looks as though it’ll feature many NFL openings? Probably won’t work out for one reason or another but one can hope.

FWIW: just gaming this out...I wouldn’t see Lance leaving the program in this scenario. Derek and Lance are super tight going back to their days at Idaho State in the late 90s. Given Shaw’s reluctance to firing anyone, it would probably have to coincide with Akina’s retirement, Lance focusing solely on OLB and going back to take on more of the recruiting and admissions liaison load, and Derek taking DC/DB.

[StanfordMatt]

It seems more likely than not that Vandy will move on from Mason at the end of the season. Would Shaw find a way to shuffle things around and bring him back to run the defense??? Would Mason even want to in a jobs cycle that looks as though it’ll feature many NFL openings? Probably won’t work out for one reason or another but one can hope.

FWIW: just gaming this out...I wouldn’t see Lance leaving the program in this scenario. Derek and Lance are super tight going back to their days at Idaho State in the late 90s. Given Shaw’s reluctance to firing anyone, it would probably have to coincide with Akina’s retirement, Lance focusing solely on OLB and going back to take on more of the recruiting and admissions liaison load, and Derek taking DC/DB.

[SamuelMcF]

2.  Shaw will 'retire' when, and only when, his last kid is a freshman in college.  That is 4 years away, IIRC.  And I disagree that he will be fired before then, no matter how badly the program continues to spiral down.  Didn't Muir just ink him to what amounts to a lifetime contract?  When will we start seeing public inquiries about that?!?

Not lifetime. And FWIW, that information wasn't supposed to get out, so I doubt there will be public inquiries about it.

[SamuelMcF]

2.  Shaw will 'retire' when, and only when, his last kid is a freshman in college.  That is 4 years away, IIRC.  And I disagree that he will be fired before then, no matter how badly the program continues to spiral down.  Didn't Muir just ink him to what amounts to a lifetime contract?  When will we start seeing public inquiries about that?!?

Not lifetime. And FWIW, that information wasn't supposed to get out, so I doubt there will be public inquiries about it.

[OutsiderFan]

It seems we have reached the stage when the majority now sees as obvious what the minority saw as obvious three years ago and was shouted down for saying at the time. Such is the cycle of life when it comes to college coach support dynamics.

I'm sincerely impressed nobody has tried playing the "but it's a messed up season" card in defense of the indefensible after two games. It's not the fact Stanford is 0-2 that is the problem. It's how the team has played to get there, and the game management decisions involved, that matter. They are symptoms of a disease that doesn't change whether there is a pandemic complicating matters or not.

[OutsiderFan]

It seems we have reached the stage when the majority now sees as obvious what the minority saw as obvious three years ago and was shouted down for saying at the time. Such is the cycle of life when it comes to college coach support dynamics.

I'm sincerely impressed nobody has tried playing the "but it's a messed up season" card in defense of the indefensible after two games. It's not the fact Stanford is 0-2 that is the problem. It's how the team has played to get there, and the game management decisions involved, that matter. They are symptoms of a disease that doesn't change whether there is a pandemic complicating matters or not.

[SamuelMcF]

It seems we have reached the stage when the majority now sees as obvious what the minority saw as obvious three years ago and was shouted down for saying at the time. Such is the cycle of life when it comes to college coach support dynamics.

Underperformance like this doesn't surprise me given recruiting holes, misses, and roster mismanagement (especially with the 2018 class). What does surprise me is just how bad we became, and how quickly. I thought it would be a slower burn and a reversion to semi-competitive mediocrity, not becoming a Pac-12 cellar dweller practically overnight.

[SamuelMcF]

It seems we have reached the stage when the majority now sees as obvious what the minority saw as obvious three years ago and was shouted down for saying at the time. Such is the cycle of life when it comes to college coach support dynamics.

Underperformance like this doesn't surprise me given recruiting holes, misses, and roster mismanagement (especially with the 2018 class). What does surprise me is just how bad we became, and how quickly. I thought it would be a slower burn and a reversion to semi-competitive mediocrity, not becoming a Pac-12 cellar dweller practically overnight.

[slide]

2.  Shaw will 'retire' when, and only when, his last kid is a freshman in college.  That is 4 years away, IIRC.  And I disagree that he will be fired before then, no matter how badly the program continues to spiral down.  Didn't Muir just ink him to what amounts to a lifetime contract?  When will we start seeing public inquiries about that?!?

Not lifetime. And FWIW, that information wasn't supposed to get out, so I doubt there will be public inquiries about it.

Shaw per the University's 990 makes what $4.811 million/year.  he signs an extension presumably for even more money and he is overly sensitive about the extension and the money.  hmmm....

[slide]

2.  Shaw will 'retire' when, and only when, his last kid is a freshman in college.  That is 4 years away, IIRC.  And I disagree that he will be fired before then, no matter how badly the program continues to spiral down.  Didn't Muir just ink him to what amounts to a lifetime contract?  When will we start seeing public inquiries about that?!?

Not lifetime. And FWIW, that information wasn't supposed to get out, so I doubt there will be public inquiries about it.

Shaw per the University's 990 makes what $4.811 million/year.  he signs an extension presumably for even more money and he is overly sensitive about the extension and the money.  hmmm....

[teejers1]

2.  Shaw will 'retire' when, and only when, his last kid is a freshman in college.  That is 4 years away, IIRC.  And I disagree that he will be fired before then, no matter how badly the program continues to spiral down.  Didn't Muir just ink him to what amounts to a lifetime contract?  When will we start seeing public inquiries about that?!?

Not lifetime. And FWIW, that information wasn't supposed to get out, so I doubt there will be public inquiries about it.

Shaw per the University's 990 makes what $4.811 million/year.  he signs an extension presumably for even more money and he is overly sensitive about the extension and the money.  hmmm....

Seriously, why do you think "there will be no public inquiries?"  
And even if you believe that the media wouldn't "dare" to ask about it, do you think that is a correct state of affairs?  
And if so, why?

It strikes me as completely ridiculous that a football coach would have some expectation of privacy regarding the basic outlines of his contract - number of years, annual salary, major incentives (if any) - even at a private university.  What's deserving of such "secrecy?"

[teejers1]

2.  Shaw will 'retire' when, and only when, his last kid is a freshman in college.  That is 4 years away, IIRC.  And I disagree that he will be fired before then, no matter how badly the program continues to spiral down.  Didn't Muir just ink him to what amounts to a lifetime contract?  When will we start seeing public inquiries about that?!?

Not lifetime. And FWIW, that information wasn't supposed to get out, so I doubt there will be public inquiries about it.

Shaw per the University's 990 makes what $4.811 million/year.  he signs an extension presumably for even more money and he is overly sensitive about the extension and the money.  hmmm....

Seriously, why do you think "there will be no public inquiries?"  
And even if you believe that the media wouldn't "dare" to ask about it, do you think that is a correct state of affairs?  
And if so, why?

It strikes me as completely ridiculous that a football coach would have some expectation of privacy regarding the basic outlines of his contract - number of years, annual salary, major incentives (if any) - even at a private university.  What's deserving of such "secrecy?"

[BostonCard]

I don't know, ask Clay Helton...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2758...0disclosed.

The University of Southern California announced Tuesday that it has signed head football coach Clay Helton to a contract extension through the 2023 season.

Financial terms were not disclosed.

I would think that most well compensated people have a strong desire for privacy about their compensation.  That may not be possible (for example, coaches of public schools generally have their salaries disclosed, and likewise Shaw's salary will eventually be disclosed in Stanford's tax filings, but honestly Shaw's desire for privacy is not at all surprising.  Whether he is deserving or not of it is another question (and in any case, it will eventually be disclosed).

Maybe we can turn this around... it strikes me as equally ridiculous that you feel entitled to know.

BC

[BostonCard]

I don't know, ask Clay Helton...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2758...0disclosed.

The University of Southern California announced Tuesday that it has signed head football coach Clay Helton to a contract extension through the 2023 season.

Financial terms were not disclosed.

I would think that most well compensated people have a strong desire for privacy about their compensation.  That may not be possible (for example, coaches of public schools generally have their salaries disclosed, and likewise Shaw's salary will eventually be disclosed in Stanford's tax filings, but honestly Shaw's desire for privacy is not at all surprising.  Whether he is deserving or not of it is another question (and in any case, it will eventually be disclosed).

Maybe we can turn this around... it strikes me as equally ridiculous that you feel entitled to know.

BC

[teejers1]

I don't know, ask Clay Helton...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2758...0disclosed.

The University of Southern California announced Tuesday that it has signed head football coach Clay Helton to a contract extension through the 2023 season.

Financial terms were not disclosed.

I would think that most well compensated people have a strong desire for privacy about their compensation.  That may not be possible (for example, coaches of public schools generally have their salaries disclosed, and likewise Shaw's salary will eventually be disclosed in Stanford's tax filings, but honestly Shaw's desire for privacy is not at all surprising.  Whether he is deserving or not of it is another question (and in any case, it will eventually be disclosed).

Maybe we can turn this around... it strikes me as equally ridiculous that you feel entitled to know.

BC

You can try and turn it around, but I have enough info already to believe that Shaw is MASSIVELY overpaid.  Whether he makes $3, $4, or $6M per year, my mind won't be changed.  What about yours?

Also, alums who get constant requests for donations to the university - and the Athletic Department, in particular - might want to know if the AD is spending its money wisely before making a donation.  Or is that totally out of the realm of reasonableness?

[teejers1]

I don't know, ask Clay Helton...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2758...0disclosed.

The University of Southern California announced Tuesday that it has signed head football coach Clay Helton to a contract extension through the 2023 season.

Financial terms were not disclosed.

I would think that most well compensated people have a strong desire for privacy about their compensation.  That may not be possible (for example, coaches of public schools generally have their salaries disclosed, and likewise Shaw's salary will eventually be disclosed in Stanford's tax filings, but honestly Shaw's desire for privacy is not at all surprising.  Whether he is deserving or not of it is another question (and in any case, it will eventually be disclosed).

Maybe we can turn this around... it strikes me as equally ridiculous that you feel entitled to know.

BC

You can try and turn it around, but I have enough info already to believe that Shaw is MASSIVELY overpaid.  Whether he makes $3, $4, or $6M per year, my mind won't be changed.  What about yours?

Also, alums who get constant requests for donations to the university - and the Athletic Department, in particular - might want to know if the AD is spending its money wisely before making a donation.  Or is that totally out of the realm of reasonableness?

[BostonCard]

I think all coaches are massively overpaid.  Our priorities are screwed up.  But I still was paying for season tickets until this year, so I recognize I'm part of the problem.

ADD: That being said, if you go by winning percentage, it looks like (based on his old contract), he was being paid fairly:

https://www.coacheshotseat.com/Winninges...chesIA.htm

Shaw is 17th among active coaches in winning percentage (11th among P5 coaches).  Among P5 coaches with a better winning percentage, only Chris Klieman at KSU and Eliah Drinkwitz at Missou (both of who accrued wins before their current position) are relative bargains.  On the other hand, Shaw has a better winning percentage than five coaches who make more money than he did and three who have the same salary.

But as I said, all coaches are overpaid.

BC

[BostonCard]

I think all coaches are massively overpaid.  Our priorities are screwed up.  But I still was paying for season tickets until this year, so I recognize I'm part of the problem.

ADD: That being said, if you go by winning percentage, it looks like (based on his old contract), he was being paid fairly:

https://www.coacheshotseat.com/Winninges...chesIA.htm

Shaw is 17th among active coaches in winning percentage (11th among P5 coaches).  Among P5 coaches with a better winning percentage, only Chris Klieman at KSU and Eliah Drinkwitz at Missou (both of who accrued wins before their current position) are relative bargains.  On the other hand, Shaw has a better winning percentage than five coaches who make more money than he did and three who have the same salary.

But as I said, all coaches are overpaid.

BC

[Phogge]

I'm not paying a cent until proper entertainment is given. Right now there are at least 50 teams playing entertaining football. If you are entertained by missed tackles, QB's having all day to pick apart a secondary, safeties turning a 15 yard slant into a 55 yard TD and running backs averaging one yard a carry I'm sorry for you. It's the total package and as a former ticket holder I'm bothered by the "Execution" excuse.

[Phogge]

I'm not paying a cent until proper entertainment is given. Right now there are at least 50 teams playing entertaining football. If you are entertained by missed tackles, QB's having all day to pick apart a secondary, safeties turning a 15 yard slant into a 55 yard TD and running backs averaging one yard a carry I'm sorry for you. It's the total package and as a former ticket holder I'm bothered by the "Execution" excuse.

[teejers1]

I think all coaches are massively overpaid.  Our priorities are screwed up.  But I still was paying for season tickets until this year, so I recognize I'm part of the problem.

ADD: That being said, if you go by winning percentage, it looks like (based on his old contract), he was being paid fairly:

https://www.coacheshotseat.com/Winninges...chesIA.htm

Shaw is 17th among active coaches in winning percentage (11th among P5 coaches).  Among P5 coaches with a better winning percentage, only Chris Klieman at KSU and Eliah Drinkwitz at Missou (both of who accrued wins before their current position) are relative bargains.  On the other hand, Shaw has a better winning percentage than five coaches who make more money than he did and three who have the same salary.

But as I said, all coaches are overpaid.

BC

Just wait.  We still haven't reached Shaw's "sea level" when it comes to his stewardship over Stanford football.  But we're getting there . . .

[teejers1]

I think all coaches are massively overpaid.  Our priorities are screwed up.  But I still was paying for season tickets until this year, so I recognize I'm part of the problem.

ADD: That being said, if you go by winning percentage, it looks like (based on his old contract), he was being paid fairly:

https://www.coacheshotseat.com/Winninges...chesIA.htm

Shaw is 17th among active coaches in winning percentage (11th among P5 coaches).  Among P5 coaches with a better winning percentage, only Chris Klieman at KSU and Eliah Drinkwitz at Missou (both of who accrued wins before their current position) are relative bargains.  On the other hand, Shaw has a better winning percentage than five coaches who make more money than he did and three who have the same salary.

But as I said, all coaches are overpaid.

BC

Just wait.  We still haven't reached Shaw's "sea level" when it comes to his stewardship over Stanford football.  But we're getting there . . .

[Treebound]

TJ's correct.  Shaw is not leaving until his last child makes it past Old Union.   
He's too damn stubborn to hire a solid OC that can help this program.  I had hoped he would grow into the role and evolve and improve...I had hoped that the journey would begin after the Fiesta Bowl debacle.  It's been painful to watch...call it "death by a thousand punts" or by too many trick plays/formations that turn into delay of game calls.  He's needed to look in the mirror for too long, but I now think he's not capable of that humility.

[Treebound]

TJ's correct.  Shaw is not leaving until his last child makes it past Old Union.   
He's too damn stubborn to hire a solid OC that can help this program.  I had hoped he would grow into the role and evolve and improve...I had hoped that the journey would begin after the Fiesta Bowl debacle.  It's been painful to watch...call it "death by a thousand punts" or by too many trick plays/formations that turn into delay of game calls.  He's needed to look in the mirror for too long, but I now think he's not capable of that humility.