[Giants]

Which regular starting pitcher won his league's ERA title with the fewest wins over the course of a season?  The worst winning percentage?

Phil Niekro?  

Always a good to great ERA with oddball seasons with lots of wins and losses and I am guessing he also may have had years in which he won few games.  Knuckleballers. What can you say.....

[Giants]

Which regular starting pitcher won his league's ERA title with the fewest wins over the course of a season?  The worst winning percentage?

Phil Niekro?  

Always a good to great ERA with oddball seasons with lots of wins and losses and I am guessing he also may have had years in which he won few games.  Knuckleballers. What can you say.....

[lex24]

Your 2020 wins co-leaders were Shane Bieber and Yu Darvish with 8.
Bieber was the ERA leader at 1.63, so if last season counted, I'm fairly sure Bieber would have won with 8.

1994 was another shortened season (due to the strike).  Greg Maddux was the ERA leader that year (1.56).  He went 16-6 that year.

I wouldn't be surprised if the winner had an injury-shortened season.  To qualify for the ERA title, the pitcher would have to pitch at least 1 inning for each of its team's game (so, typically 162 innings), which a player could reach in <30 starts.

BC

I’m pretty sure Slide is right.

[lex24]

Your 2020 wins co-leaders were Shane Bieber and Yu Darvish with 8.
Bieber was the ERA leader at 1.63, so if last season counted, I'm fairly sure Bieber would have won with 8.

1994 was another shortened season (due to the strike).  Greg Maddux was the ERA leader that year (1.56).  He went 16-6 that year.

I wouldn't be surprised if the winner had an injury-shortened season.  To qualify for the ERA title, the pitcher would have to pitch at least 1 inning for each of its team's game (so, typically 162 innings), which a player could reach in <30 starts.

BC

I’m pretty sure Slide is right.

[BostonCard]

Rob Nen
Koufax
Clemons

Nope on Nen and Clemens.

We have Koufax and Ryan, a reliever not named Rivera, Gossage, or Nen, and two others.
As a hint, the other three are all more recent than Koufax or Ryan.

Nolan Ryan won the ERA title twice, in 1981 (1.69) and 1987 (2.76).  His record those two years were 11-5 and 8-16, so slide may well be right.  Man, talk about poor run support.

BC

---

One other hint, all three (plus obviously Ryan and Koufax) are in the Hall of Fame.

BC

[BostonCard]

Rob Nen
Koufax
Clemons

Nope on Nen and Clemens.

We have Koufax and Ryan, a reliever not named Rivera, Gossage, or Nen, and two others.
As a hint, the other three are all more recent than Koufax or Ryan.

Nolan Ryan won the ERA title twice, in 1981 (1.69) and 1987 (2.76).  His record those two years were 11-5 and 8-16, so slide may well be right.  Man, talk about poor run support.

BC

---

One other hint, all three (plus obviously Ryan and Koufax) are in the Hall of Fame.

BC

[Phogge]

Been away for two days due to a power pole snapping in two in 90 mph winds.

The reliever must be Trevor Hoffman and the others perhaps Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. Can’t think of anyone else in the HOF.

[Phogge]

Been away for two days due to a power pole snapping in two in 90 mph winds.

The reliever must be Trevor Hoffman and the others perhaps Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. Can’t think of anyone else in the HOF.

[BostonCard]

Been away for two days due to a power pole snapping in two in 90 mph winds.

The reliever must be Trevor Hoffman and the others perhaps Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. Can’t think of anyone else in the HOF.

Well done!  Hoffman, the Big Unit and Pedro (plus Ryan and Koufax) are the five pitchers who have had more strikeouts than innings.

BC

[BostonCard]

Been away for two days due to a power pole snapping in two in 90 mph winds.

The reliever must be Trevor Hoffman and the others perhaps Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. Can’t think of anyone else in the HOF.

Well done!  Hoffman, the Big Unit and Pedro (plus Ryan and Koufax) are the five pitchers who have had more strikeouts than innings.

BC

[Mick]

Joe Magrane of the Cardinals won the league ERA title in 1988 as a 23-year old starting pitcher with 24 starts.  His league-leading ERA was 2.18, and his overall record 5-9.  Just five wins.

Three other starting pitchers who won their league ERA titles had eight wins, the next fewest wins.  And just one year earlier, Nolan Ryan (as slide, Bob, BC and others mentioned) went 8-16 for the Houston Astros for the lowest winning percentage among pitchers who won their league's ERA title (in this case, Ryan led the NL with a 2.76 ERA).

[Mick]

Joe Magrane of the Cardinals won the league ERA title in 1988 as a 23-year old starting pitcher with 24 starts.  His league-leading ERA was 2.18, and his overall record 5-9.  Just five wins.

Three other starting pitchers who won their league ERA titles had eight wins, the next fewest wins.  And just one year earlier, Nolan Ryan (as slide, Bob, BC and others mentioned) went 8-16 for the Houston Astros for the lowest winning percentage among pitchers who won their league's ERA title (in this case, Ryan led the NL with a 2.76 ERA).

[Phogge]

Joc Pederson and Eddie Rosario have signed elsewhere so it looks like Jackie Brantley May be the last remaining left hand hitting outfielder they are interested in barring a trade. Many clubs have inquired about Joey Bart.

[Phogge]

Joc Pederson and Eddie Rosario have signed elsewhere so it looks like Jackie Brantley May be the last remaining left hand hitting outfielder they are interested in barring a trade. Many clubs have inquired about Joey Bart.

[Mick]

Joc Pederson and Eddie Rosario have signed elsewhere so it looks like Jackie Brantley May be the last remaining left hand hitting outfielder they are interested in barring a trade. Many clubs have inquired about Joey Bart.

What do you think they could get for Joey Bart?  He was overwhelmed by major league pitching his first year (.233), but so was Buster (.118 in 17 ABs in 2009).

BTW, Buster's career splits are considerably better as a first baseman (.330/.389/.515/.904) versus catcher (.297/.366/.447/.813).  Just sayin'.

[Mick]

Joc Pederson and Eddie Rosario have signed elsewhere so it looks like Jackie Brantley May be the last remaining left hand hitting outfielder they are interested in barring a trade. Many clubs have inquired about Joey Bart.

What do you think they could get for Joey Bart?  He was overwhelmed by major league pitching his first year (.233), but so was Buster (.118 in 17 ABs in 2009).

BTW, Buster's career splits are considerably better as a first baseman (.330/.389/.515/.904) versus catcher (.297/.366/.447/.813).  Just sayin'.

[Phogge]

It’s all about potential. The good news is that other teams see it too. I think back to Matty Alou. The Giants were infused with power... Mays, Cepeda, McCovey, Haller and Bailey. They had two good second place hitters, Davenport and Harvey Kuenn but inadequate lead off guys. Apparently Chub Feeney and others didn’t see the value in a guy who had little power but could get on base so they ultimately traded Matty who went on to a batting title with the Pirates.

If Bart could bring in a healthy starter (with three years under contract) who could go 16-6 with a 3.00 then make the deal but that won’t happen. They still have the switch hitting kid from North Carolina in the system. I would rather trade Belt but the stats guys on this board love him.

[Phogge]

It’s all about potential. The good news is that other teams see it too. I think back to Matty Alou. The Giants were infused with power... Mays, Cepeda, McCovey, Haller and Bailey. They had two good second place hitters, Davenport and Harvey Kuenn but inadequate lead off guys. Apparently Chub Feeney and others didn’t see the value in a guy who had little power but could get on base so they ultimately traded Matty who went on to a batting title with the Pirates.

If Bart could bring in a healthy starter (with three years under contract) who could go 16-6 with a 3.00 then make the deal but that won’t happen. They still have the switch hitting kid from North Carolina in the system. I would rather trade Belt but the stats guys on this board love him.

[Mick]

It’s all about potential. The good news is that other teams see it too. I think back to Matty Alou. The Giants were infused with power... Mays, Cepeda, McCovey, Haller and Bailey. They had two good second place hitters, Davenport and Harvey Kuenn but inadequate lead off guys. Apparently Chub Feeney and others didn’t see the value in a guy who had little power but could get on base so they ultimately traded Matty who went on to a batting title with the Pirates.

If Bart could bring in a healthy starter (with three years under contract) who could go 16-6 with a 3.00 then make the deal but that won’t happen. They still have the switch hitting kid from North Carolina in the system. I would rather trade Belt but the stats guys on this board love him.

Alou had it tough.  He played with the Giants for the first six seasons of his career, batting a collective .244 with a .304 OBP -- not quite leadoff material, and he bats .231 in his last year with the Giants.  The next year with the Pirates, he works with legendary hitting coach Harry "The Hat" Walker, gets lit on fire and leads the league with a .342 batting average and .373 OBP.  His 15-year career slash line of .307/.344/.381/.726 is startling when compared with the first six years of his career with the Giants (.260/.304/.338/.642).

[Mick]

It’s all about potential. The good news is that other teams see it too. I think back to Matty Alou. The Giants were infused with power... Mays, Cepeda, McCovey, Haller and Bailey. They had two good second place hitters, Davenport and Harvey Kuenn but inadequate lead off guys. Apparently Chub Feeney and others didn’t see the value in a guy who had little power but could get on base so they ultimately traded Matty who went on to a batting title with the Pirates.

If Bart could bring in a healthy starter (with three years under contract) who could go 16-6 with a 3.00 then make the deal but that won’t happen. They still have the switch hitting kid from North Carolina in the system. I would rather trade Belt but the stats guys on this board love him.

Alou had it tough.  He played with the Giants for the first six seasons of his career, batting a collective .244 with a .304 OBP -- not quite leadoff material, and he bats .231 in his last year with the Giants.  The next year with the Pirates, he works with legendary hitting coach Harry "The Hat" Walker, gets lit on fire and leads the league with a .342 batting average and .373 OBP.  His 15-year career slash line of .307/.344/.381/.726 is startling when compared with the first six years of his career with the Giants (.260/.304/.338/.642).

[lex24]

Joc Pederson and Eddie Rosario have signed elsewhere so it looks like Jackie Brantley May be the last remaining left hand hitting outfielder they are interested in barring a trade. Many clubs have inquired about Joey Bart.

What do you think they could get for Joey Bart?  He was overwhelmed by major league pitching his first year (.233), but so was Buster (.118 in 17 ABs in 2009).

BTW, Buster's career splits are considerably better as a first baseman (.330/.389/.515/.904) versus catcher (.297/.366/.447/.813).  Just sayin'.

17 ABs don’t tell you anything. Mays was 0 for his first 20. (Edit - actually 0-12 and 1-26. The one being an HR off Spahn).

The question on Bart is if he ever will be able to make enough contact.  He has power.  But he had a hard time with contact.  Still, he’s got potential at a position that has value. So if they decide to trade him, they might be able to get some value. And they may do so.  He’s not Farhans Guy.  Patrick Bailey is.  If they conclude Bailey has more upside, Bart becomes expendable. 

Glad the Giants passed on Peterson.

[lex24]

Joc Pederson and Eddie Rosario have signed elsewhere so it looks like Jackie Brantley May be the last remaining left hand hitting outfielder they are interested in barring a trade. Many clubs have inquired about Joey Bart.

What do you think they could get for Joey Bart?  He was overwhelmed by major league pitching his first year (.233), but so was Buster (.118 in 17 ABs in 2009).

BTW, Buster's career splits are considerably better as a first baseman (.330/.389/.515/.904) versus catcher (.297/.366/.447/.813).  Just sayin'.

17 ABs don’t tell you anything. Mays was 0 for his first 20. (Edit - actually 0-12 and 1-26. The one being an HR off Spahn).

The question on Bart is if he ever will be able to make enough contact.  He has power.  But he had a hard time with contact.  Still, he’s got potential at a position that has value. So if they decide to trade him, they might be able to get some value. And they may do so.  He’s not Farhans Guy.  Patrick Bailey is.  If they conclude Bailey has more upside, Bart becomes expendable. 

Glad the Giants passed on Peterson.

[magnus]

The question on Bart is if he ever will be able to make enough contact.  He has power.  But he had a hard time with contact. 

Sounds like Mike Zunino.

[magnus]

The question on Bart is if he ever will be able to make enough contact.  He has power.  But he had a hard time with contact. 

Sounds like Mike Zunino.

[Phogge]

The Giants signed power over everything. While Alou was there they signed a power hitting third baseman, Jim Ray Hart. Alou never was really given a chance. After 1962 second place finishes were the norm. Many trade mistakes were made... Felipe for Bob Shaw, Cepeda for Sadecki, Manny Mota, Jose Cardenal, Jackie Brandt...

[Phogge]

The Giants signed power over everything. While Alou was there they signed a power hitting third baseman, Jim Ray Hart. Alou never was really given a chance. After 1962 second place finishes were the norm. Many trade mistakes were made... Felipe for Bob Shaw, Cepeda for Sadecki, Manny Mota, Jose Cardenal, Jackie Brandt...

[Mick]

The Giants signed power over everything. 

They definitely had power, but their pitching was vastly underrated.  The Dodgers had Koufax and Drysdale and Osteen and Podres and Perranoski and Miller and Brewer, but the Giants had Marichal, McCormick, Perry, Bolin, Sanford, O'Dell, Pierce, Jones, Gomez, O'Dell.  In the 1960s, the Giants finished 2nd in the NL in runs, then 1st, 1st, 2nd, 6th, 4th, 5th and last in 1967 (though they still finished 2nd in the league), 3rd, and 4th.  Pitching, they finished 6th, 9th, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd and 4th.

By way of comparison, the 2010, 2012 and 2014 Giants finished 1st, 5th and 8th in the NL in pitching.

[Mick]

The Giants signed power over everything. 

They definitely had power, but their pitching was vastly underrated.  The Dodgers had Koufax and Drysdale and Osteen and Podres and Perranoski and Miller and Brewer, but the Giants had Marichal, McCormick, Perry, Bolin, Sanford, O'Dell, Pierce, Jones, Gomez, O'Dell.  In the 1960s, the Giants finished 2nd in the NL in runs, then 1st, 1st, 2nd, 6th, 4th, 5th and last in 1967 (though they still finished 2nd in the league), 3rd, and 4th.  Pitching, they finished 6th, 9th, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd and 4th.

By way of comparison, the 2010, 2012 and 2014 Giants finished 1st, 5th and 8th in the NL in pitching.

[BobK]

Bill White and Jackie Brandt had both been in the Army prior to SF and also 1958. Both traded. Of course the Giants had Cepeda at first base when White got out of the Army.

Who were they traded for ?

[BobK]

Bill White and Jackie Brandt had both been in the Army prior to SF and also 1958. Both traded. Of course the Giants had Cepeda at first base when White got out of the Army.

Who were they traded for ?

[lex24]

While the pandemic was mostly to blame for the 60 game season, the inability of the Players Association and Management to agree killed other proposals that would have meant more games.

Now the Owners have floated what sounds like a reasonable plan:  delay spring training a month.Open April 28th with a 154 game schedule. Players paid for 162.  DH in NL.  You can play up to 12 (or14 I forget) games as split DHs. Expanded playoffs like last year. With (an idea I like) a “selection show” where the top seed  gets to pick who they play, then the 2 seed picks etc.

But the Players Asso turned it down.  Reportedly because Manfred retains expanded control to stop play if certain pandemic measures hit:  such as  govt restrictions shutting down 5 or more teams from playing at home; if travel is restricted; if after consultation with medical experts and the Union the risk to players,staff etc is deemed to be unreasonable; or, if the number of regular major leaguers unavailable undermines competitive integrity.

Sounds reasonable.  Except there is no salary or service time protection in the event of delays, interruptions etc.  If the players trusted Manfred, this would be fairly easy to work through. But they don’t.  A possible work stoppage looms after ‘21 as they will need a new CBA.

Baseball is poorly run from the top. Manfred makes Larry Scott look good.  At least Scott never referred to a Pac-12 Championship trophy as “ just a piece of metal”. Which is what Manfred called the WS trophy while essentially washing his hands of the Houston cheating scandal. 

This will be interesting to follow.  Baseball already has problems attracting fans. Particularly amongst the younger set. Having a labor dispute in the middle of a pandemic is not exactly good public relations.

[lex24]

While the pandemic was mostly to blame for the 60 game season, the inability of the Players Association and Management to agree killed other proposals that would have meant more games.

Now the Owners have floated what sounds like a reasonable plan:  delay spring training a month.Open April 28th with a 154 game schedule. Players paid for 162.  DH in NL.  You can play up to 12 (or14 I forget) games as split DHs. Expanded playoffs like last year. With (an idea I like) a “selection show” where the top seed  gets to pick who they play, then the 2 seed picks etc.

But the Players Asso turned it down.  Reportedly because Manfred retains expanded control to stop play if certain pandemic measures hit:  such as  govt restrictions shutting down 5 or more teams from playing at home; if travel is restricted; if after consultation with medical experts and the Union the risk to players,staff etc is deemed to be unreasonable; or, if the number of regular major leaguers unavailable undermines competitive integrity.

Sounds reasonable.  Except there is no salary or service time protection in the event of delays, interruptions etc.  If the players trusted Manfred, this would be fairly easy to work through. But they don’t.  A possible work stoppage looms after ‘21 as they will need a new CBA.

Baseball is poorly run from the top. Manfred makes Larry Scott look good.  At least Scott never referred to a Pac-12 Championship trophy as “ just a piece of metal”. Which is what Manfred called the WS trophy while essentially washing his hands of the Houston cheating scandal. 

This will be interesting to follow.  Baseball already has problems attracting fans. Particularly amongst the younger set. Having a labor dispute in the middle of a pandemic is not exactly good public relations.

[Phogge]

I prefer 154 games. That way it does provide a degree of fairness to the records made pre-expansion in the 60's. I also would return to no inter-league play which has cheapened the Series.

Where has this left the NL DH, seven inning nitecaps and the 10th inning faux double?

I would also implement no leaving the box unless you've fouled one off and a pitch timer that is enforced by an off field ump. Delays would bring a warning, then a ball, then two balls.... I'd bring back IF and OF drills before the games and pepper. I never played with a guy who didn't enjoy a good pepper game.

[Phogge]

I prefer 154 games. That way it does provide a degree of fairness to the records made pre-expansion in the 60's. I also would return to no inter-league play which has cheapened the Series.

Where has this left the NL DH, seven inning nitecaps and the 10th inning faux double?

I would also implement no leaving the box unless you've fouled one off and a pitch timer that is enforced by an off field ump. Delays would bring a warning, then a ball, then two balls.... I'd bring back IF and OF drills before the games and pepper. I never played with a guy who didn't enjoy a good pepper game.

[Phogge]

The White trade was good but only short term. Sam Jones had one great year and then faded.

Didn't the Giants get Jack Fisher and Bob Hendley in the Brandt trade? Maybe I remember it incorrectly. Or maybe it was O'Dell who had one great year and quickly faded.

[Phogge]

The White trade was good but only short term. Sam Jones had one great year and then faded.

Didn't the Giants get Jack Fisher and Bob Hendley in the Brandt trade? Maybe I remember it incorrectly. Or maybe it was O'Dell who had one great year and quickly faded.

[qwerty49]

The White trade was good but only short term. Sam Jones had one great year and then faded.

Didn't the Giants get Jack Fisher and Bob Hendley in the Brandt trade? Maybe I remember it incorrectly. Or maybe it was O'Dell who had one great year and quickly faded.

O'Dell and Loes came together, if that was the trade.

[qwerty49]

The White trade was good but only short term. Sam Jones had one great year and then faded.

Didn't the Giants get Jack Fisher and Bob Hendley in the Brandt trade? Maybe I remember it incorrectly. Or maybe it was O'Dell who had one great year and quickly faded.

O'Dell and Loes came together, if that was the trade.

[Phogge]

Mick, Gomez was basically done after '58, McCormick was one of the Bonus Babies and hard throwing. Very promising but lost his fastball and was traded. Reacquired in '67 as a project and holy crap won the Cy Young. Pierce was a mainstay of the '62 pennant winners and would have won 20 if he hadn't been disabled for weeks in mid season. Almost unbeatable at CP. Bolin was serviceable but never close to an ace, Sanford had one of the best years ever but faded and Pierce, Jones and O'Dell were at the end of their career.

The Giants traded away the future (2nd place wizards) for the present and it worked out in '62 but there wasn't another WS until 1989.

[Phogge]

Mick, Gomez was basically done after '58, McCormick was one of the Bonus Babies and hard throwing. Very promising but lost his fastball and was traded. Reacquired in '67 as a project and holy crap won the Cy Young. Pierce was a mainstay of the '62 pennant winners and would have won 20 if he hadn't been disabled for weeks in mid season. Almost unbeatable at CP. Bolin was serviceable but never close to an ace, Sanford had one of the best years ever but faded and Pierce, Jones and O'Dell were at the end of their career.

The Giants traded away the future (2nd place wizards) for the present and it worked out in '62 but there wasn't another WS until 1989.