[Phogge]

Lloyd Nolan (Bataan, etc.)
Adam West (Batman)
Bruno Banducci
Don Manoukian
Clark Gable

[Phogge]

Lloyd Nolan (Bataan, etc.)
Adam West (Batman)
Bruno Banducci
Don Manoukian
Clark Gable

[BobK]

Nope Phogge but thank ya thank ya kindly

At least 3 movies with Boone

[BobK]

Nope Phogge but thank ya thank ya kindly

At least 3 movies with Boone

[Mick]

What is the only NCAA championship where the squads contain members of both sexes competing for one championship? Meaning in this context Male and Female.

Fencing.

Rifle?

---

I agree that Pierzynski (together with Papelbon) is one of the weaker players on the ballot, although it doesn't really matter. But just out of curiosity, in what way does Range Factor measure a catcher's defensive ability?

It covers assists and putouts.  For catchers, strikeouts are credited to the catcher.

That's my point. Almost all of a catcher's putouts are strikeouts. If you are catching the Brewers staff then your "range" will be sky high and if you are  catching the Cardinals staff your "range" will be well below average. It's not relevant for catchers. There's plenty to ding Pierzynski with but that's a reach.

I don't know that it's all that much of a reach.  Catcher catches the pitches and frames the pitches and they have their own assists, putouts, double plays, etc.  But if it makes you feel better, AJP's fielding Sabrmetrics are almost uniformly negative (average is 0) across his career.  That's true for:

* Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average (-36)
* Total Zone Catcher Runs Above Average (-36)
* Defensive Runs Saved Above Average (-57)
* +/- Fielding Runs Above Average (-4)
* Catcher Runs Above Average (-15)
* Catcher Strike Zone Runs Above Average (-16)

There are 15 career defensive metrics assigned to catchers.  AJP has two that are positive, three that are neutral (0) and ten that are negative.  Doesn't really scream Hall of Fame to me.

I started off by saying that he was a weak candidate so saying "doesn't really scream Hall of Fame to me" and citing defensive statistics that are actually relevant is a weak attempt to reframe what I was arguing. The fact remains that "Range Factor" is essentially irrelevant to catcher defensive evaluation. All of the other inputs are other very minor or again not dependent on catcher ability.

Got it.  So what are the core, relevant inputs to elect a catcher into the Hall of Fame?

[Mick]

What is the only NCAA championship where the squads contain members of both sexes competing for one championship? Meaning in this context Male and Female.

Fencing.

Rifle?

---

I agree that Pierzynski (together with Papelbon) is one of the weaker players on the ballot, although it doesn't really matter. But just out of curiosity, in what way does Range Factor measure a catcher's defensive ability?

It covers assists and putouts.  For catchers, strikeouts are credited to the catcher.

That's my point. Almost all of a catcher's putouts are strikeouts. If you are catching the Brewers staff then your "range" will be sky high and if you are  catching the Cardinals staff your "range" will be well below average. It's not relevant for catchers. There's plenty to ding Pierzynski with but that's a reach.

I don't know that it's all that much of a reach.  Catcher catches the pitches and frames the pitches and they have their own assists, putouts, double plays, etc.  But if it makes you feel better, AJP's fielding Sabrmetrics are almost uniformly negative (average is 0) across his career.  That's true for:

* Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average (-36)
* Total Zone Catcher Runs Above Average (-36)
* Defensive Runs Saved Above Average (-57)
* +/- Fielding Runs Above Average (-4)
* Catcher Runs Above Average (-15)
* Catcher Strike Zone Runs Above Average (-16)

There are 15 career defensive metrics assigned to catchers.  AJP has two that are positive, three that are neutral (0) and ten that are negative.  Doesn't really scream Hall of Fame to me.

I started off by saying that he was a weak candidate so saying "doesn't really scream Hall of Fame to me" and citing defensive statistics that are actually relevant is a weak attempt to reframe what I was arguing. The fact remains that "Range Factor" is essentially irrelevant to catcher defensive evaluation. All of the other inputs are other very minor or again not dependent on catcher ability.

Got it.  So what are the core, relevant inputs to elect a catcher into the Hall of Fame?

[DC 86]

What is the only NCAA championship where the squads contain members of both sexes competing for one championship? Meaning in this context Male and Female.

Fencing.

Rifle?

---

It covers assists and putouts.  For catchers, strikeouts are credited to the catcher.

That's my point. Almost all of a catcher's putouts are strikeouts. If you are catching the Brewers staff then your "range" will be sky high and if you are  catching the Cardinals staff your "range" will be well below average. It's not relevant for catchers. There's plenty to ding Pierzynski with but that's a reach.

I don't know that it's all that much of a reach.  Catcher catches the pitches and frames the pitches and they have their own assists, putouts, double plays, etc.  But if it makes you feel better, AJP's fielding Sabrmetrics are almost uniformly negative (average is 0) across his career.  That's true for:

* Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average (-36)
* Total Zone Catcher Runs Above Average (-36)
* Defensive Runs Saved Above Average (-57)
* +/- Fielding Runs Above Average (-4)
* Catcher Runs Above Average (-15)
* Catcher Strike Zone Runs Above Average (-16)

There are 15 career defensive metrics assigned to catchers.  AJP has two that are positive, three that are neutral (0) and ten that are negative.  Doesn't really scream Hall of Fame to me.

I started off by saying that he was a weak candidate so saying "doesn't really scream Hall of Fame to me" and citing defensive statistics that are actually relevant is a weak attempt to reframe what I was arguing. The fact remains that "Range Factor" is essentially irrelevant to catcher defensive evaluation. All of the other inputs are other very minor or again not dependent on catcher ability.

Got it.  So what are the core, relevant inputs to elect a catcher into the Hall of Fame?

This was a discussion about the irrelevancy of catcher Range Factor, which you disputed and doubled down on, not about the criteria for Hall of Fame election. It was never disputed that Pierzynski is nowhere near serious HoF consideration.

But to answer your question, the objective inputs for evaluating a catcher's HoF candidacy (acknowledging that subjective inputs are legitimate as well) are the obvious ones: the player's net offensive and defensive contributions. The issue is what metrics are the most accurate at capturing what a player's net value is/was. Specifically for catcher defense the best publicly available metric is the BIS version of DRS. There's a reason why both versions of WAR (B-Ref and FanGraphs) use DRS as the catcher defense component. bWAR uses DRS while fWAR uses DRS as well as a proprietary metric for blocking. FanGraphs uses Ultimate Zone Rating for non-catchers but not for catchers since it was never meant to be applied to that position. Range Factor was considered obsolete years ago and in any case was never intended to be used for catchers either, since over 95% of the inputs are external to a catcher's influence.

As you pointed out Pierzynski's DRS Above Average was -57, meaning that he was a poor catcher to the point that his below average offensive performance is not outweighed by superior defensive contribution. But ZR and RF are irrelevant metrics for catchers whether you believe me or not, and there's not a single front office analyst who uses anything akin to those calculations in their evaluations or projections. Of course front offices don't use publicly available models at all but the base defensive modeling that they use for catchers is essentially a proprietary version of DRS. Referencing any versions of Zone Rating or Range Factor is just unnecessary noise that shows a misunderstanding of how to evaluate catcher defense.

[DC 86]

What is the only NCAA championship where the squads contain members of both sexes competing for one championship? Meaning in this context Male and Female.

Fencing.

Rifle?

---

It covers assists and putouts.  For catchers, strikeouts are credited to the catcher.

That's my point. Almost all of a catcher's putouts are strikeouts. If you are catching the Brewers staff then your "range" will be sky high and if you are  catching the Cardinals staff your "range" will be well below average. It's not relevant for catchers. There's plenty to ding Pierzynski with but that's a reach.

I don't know that it's all that much of a reach.  Catcher catches the pitches and frames the pitches and they have their own assists, putouts, double plays, etc.  But if it makes you feel better, AJP's fielding Sabrmetrics are almost uniformly negative (average is 0) across his career.  That's true for:

* Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average (-36)
* Total Zone Catcher Runs Above Average (-36)
* Defensive Runs Saved Above Average (-57)
* +/- Fielding Runs Above Average (-4)
* Catcher Runs Above Average (-15)
* Catcher Strike Zone Runs Above Average (-16)

There are 15 career defensive metrics assigned to catchers.  AJP has two that are positive, three that are neutral (0) and ten that are negative.  Doesn't really scream Hall of Fame to me.

I started off by saying that he was a weak candidate so saying "doesn't really scream Hall of Fame to me" and citing defensive statistics that are actually relevant is a weak attempt to reframe what I was arguing. The fact remains that "Range Factor" is essentially irrelevant to catcher defensive evaluation. All of the other inputs are other very minor or again not dependent on catcher ability.

Got it.  So what are the core, relevant inputs to elect a catcher into the Hall of Fame?

This was a discussion about the irrelevancy of catcher Range Factor, which you disputed and doubled down on, not about the criteria for Hall of Fame election. It was never disputed that Pierzynski is nowhere near serious HoF consideration.

But to answer your question, the objective inputs for evaluating a catcher's HoF candidacy (acknowledging that subjective inputs are legitimate as well) are the obvious ones: the player's net offensive and defensive contributions. The issue is what metrics are the most accurate at capturing what a player's net value is/was. Specifically for catcher defense the best publicly available metric is the BIS version of DRS. There's a reason why both versions of WAR (B-Ref and FanGraphs) use DRS as the catcher defense component. bWAR uses DRS while fWAR uses DRS as well as a proprietary metric for blocking. FanGraphs uses Ultimate Zone Rating for non-catchers but not for catchers since it was never meant to be applied to that position. Range Factor was considered obsolete years ago and in any case was never intended to be used for catchers either, since over 95% of the inputs are external to a catcher's influence.

As you pointed out Pierzynski's DRS Above Average was -57, meaning that he was a poor catcher to the point that his below average offensive performance is not outweighed by superior defensive contribution. But ZR and RF are irrelevant metrics for catchers whether you believe me or not, and there's not a single front office analyst who uses anything akin to those calculations in their evaluations or projections. Of course front offices don't use publicly available models at all but the base defensive modeling that they use for catchers is essentially a proprietary version of DRS. Referencing any versions of Zone Rating or Range Factor is just unnecessary noise that shows a misunderstanding of how to evaluate catcher defense.

[Mick]

This was a discussion about the irrelevancy of catcher Range Factor, which you disputed and doubled down on, not about the criteria for Hall of Fame election. It was never disputed that Pierzynski is nowhere near serious HoF consideration.

But to answer your question, the objective inputs for evaluating a catcher's HoF candidacy (acknowledging that subjective inputs are legitimate as well) are the obvious ones: the player's net offensive and defensive contributions. The issue is what metrics are the most accurate at capturing what a player's net value is/was. Specifically for catcher defense the best publicly available metric is the BIS version of DRS. There's a reason why both versions of WAR (B-Ref and FanGraphs) use DRS as the catcher defense component. bWAR uses DRS while fWAR uses DRS as well as a proprietary metric for blocking. FanGraphs uses Ultimate Zone Rating for non-catchers but not for catchers since it was never meant to be applied to that position. Range Factor was considered obsolete years ago and in any case was never intended to be used for catchers either, since over 95% of the inputs are external to a catcher's influence.

As you pointed out Pierzynski's DRS Above Average was -57, meaning that he was a poor catcher to the point that his below average offensive performance is not outweighed by superior defensive contribution. But ZR and RF are irrelevant metrics for catchers whether you believe me or not, and there's not a single front office analyst who uses anything akin to those calculations in their evaluations or projections. Of course front offices don't use publicly available models at all but the base defensive modeling that they use for catchers is essentially a proprietary version of DRS. Referencing any versions of Zone Rating or Range Factor is just unnecessary noise that shows a misunderstanding of how to evaluate catcher defense.

I think JAWs (Jaffe WAR scoring system) is a good, one-size-fits-all assessment tool career total WAR with the total WAR from his seven year peak, consecutive or non-consecutive).  Will Leitch called it the "definitive statistical measure" in evaluating Hall of Fame cases, Craig Edwards of FanGraphs described JAWS as "the standard-bearer for Hall of Fame analysis over the last decade."  It doesn't account for post season performance or awards, and it probably undervalues individual outstanding seasons.  But it seems worthwhile.

Hall of Fame ballot: Explaining Jay Jaffe's JAWS stat - Sports Illustrated

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

Top 11 are in the HoF (except Mauer, not eligible until 2022), Skips Munson and Tenace, Posey not eligible for a while, Buck Ewing is in, skips Freehan (11x all-star in 15 year career), then Campanella.  Schang and Posada, not in.  Former Giant Bresnahan is in.  Skips a bunch of good eligible catchers not in HoF (Kendall, Porter, Sundberg, Parrish) then Josh Gibson, Ernie Lombardi and Ray Schalk who are members.  Skips a whooooole lot of good catchers, including Del Crandall, Javy Lopez, Mickey Tettleton, Manny Sanguillen and others, but Rick Ferrell (41st on the list), then skips a bunch more including Bob Boone to Biz Mackey, #60 and last on the list save for Al Lopez (#129), Connie Mack (#232), and Wilbert Robinson (#249) who made the hall as managers.

[Mick]

This was a discussion about the irrelevancy of catcher Range Factor, which you disputed and doubled down on, not about the criteria for Hall of Fame election. It was never disputed that Pierzynski is nowhere near serious HoF consideration.

But to answer your question, the objective inputs for evaluating a catcher's HoF candidacy (acknowledging that subjective inputs are legitimate as well) are the obvious ones: the player's net offensive and defensive contributions. The issue is what metrics are the most accurate at capturing what a player's net value is/was. Specifically for catcher defense the best publicly available metric is the BIS version of DRS. There's a reason why both versions of WAR (B-Ref and FanGraphs) use DRS as the catcher defense component. bWAR uses DRS while fWAR uses DRS as well as a proprietary metric for blocking. FanGraphs uses Ultimate Zone Rating for non-catchers but not for catchers since it was never meant to be applied to that position. Range Factor was considered obsolete years ago and in any case was never intended to be used for catchers either, since over 95% of the inputs are external to a catcher's influence.

As you pointed out Pierzynski's DRS Above Average was -57, meaning that he was a poor catcher to the point that his below average offensive performance is not outweighed by superior defensive contribution. But ZR and RF are irrelevant metrics for catchers whether you believe me or not, and there's not a single front office analyst who uses anything akin to those calculations in their evaluations or projections. Of course front offices don't use publicly available models at all but the base defensive modeling that they use for catchers is essentially a proprietary version of DRS. Referencing any versions of Zone Rating or Range Factor is just unnecessary noise that shows a misunderstanding of how to evaluate catcher defense.

I think JAWs (Jaffe WAR scoring system) is a good, one-size-fits-all assessment tool career total WAR with the total WAR from his seven year peak, consecutive or non-consecutive).  Will Leitch called it the "definitive statistical measure" in evaluating Hall of Fame cases, Craig Edwards of FanGraphs described JAWS as "the standard-bearer for Hall of Fame analysis over the last decade."  It doesn't account for post season performance or awards, and it probably undervalues individual outstanding seasons.  But it seems worthwhile.

Hall of Fame ballot: Explaining Jay Jaffe's JAWS stat - Sports Illustrated

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

Top 11 are in the HoF (except Mauer, not eligible until 2022), Skips Munson and Tenace, Posey not eligible for a while, Buck Ewing is in, skips Freehan (11x all-star in 15 year career), then Campanella.  Schang and Posada, not in.  Former Giant Bresnahan is in.  Skips a bunch of good eligible catchers not in HoF (Kendall, Porter, Sundberg, Parrish) then Josh Gibson, Ernie Lombardi and Ray Schalk who are members.  Skips a whooooole lot of good catchers, including Del Crandall, Javy Lopez, Mickey Tettleton, Manny Sanguillen and others, but Rick Ferrell (41st on the list), then skips a bunch more including Bob Boone to Biz Mackey, #60 and last on the list save for Al Lopez (#129), Connie Mack (#232), and Wilbert Robinson (#249) who made the hall as managers.

[BobK]

This Stanford actor. The great Hank Worden

https://youtu.be/UYuyO5k0o08

[BobK]

This Stanford actor. The great Hank Worden

https://youtu.be/UYuyO5k0o08

[DC 86]

I think JAWs (Jaffe WAR scoring system) is a good, one-size-fits-all assessment tool career total WAR with the total WAR from his seven year peak, consecutive or non-consecutive).  Will Leitch called it the "definitive statistical measure" in evaluating Hall of Fame cases, Craig Edwards of FanGraphs described JAWS as "the standard-bearer for Hall of Fame analysis over the last decade."  It doesn't account for post season performance or awards, and it probably undervalues individual outstanding seasons.  But it seems worthwhile.

Hall of Fame ballot: Explaining Jay Jaffe's JAWS stat - Sports Illustrated

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

Top 11 are in the HoF (except Mauer, not eligible until 2022), Skips Munson and Tenace, Posey not eligible for a while, Buck Ewing is in, skips Freehan (11x all-star in 15 year career), then Campanella.  Schang and Posada, not in.  Former Giant Bresnahan is in.  Skips a bunch of good eligible catchers not in HoF (Kendall, Porter, Sundberg, Parrish) then Josh Gibson, Ernie Lombardi and Ray Schalk who are members.  Skips a whooooole lot of good catchers, including Del Crandall, Javy Lopez, Mickey Tettleton, Manny Sanguillen and others, but Rick Ferrell (41st on the list), then skips a bunch more including Bob Boone to Biz Mackey, #60 and last on the list save for Al Lopez (#129), Connie Mack (#232), and Wilbert Robinson (#249) who made the hall as managers.

I agree; it's the best starting point for HoF evaluation.

The subjective element comes in for someone like Posey, leader on three world champions and quality over quantity; should and likely will be elected. Or Campanella, who started his career late because of the color line (the same reason why I advocate for Minoso in the upcoming vote).

[DC 86]

I think JAWs (Jaffe WAR scoring system) is a good, one-size-fits-all assessment tool career total WAR with the total WAR from his seven year peak, consecutive or non-consecutive).  Will Leitch called it the "definitive statistical measure" in evaluating Hall of Fame cases, Craig Edwards of FanGraphs described JAWS as "the standard-bearer for Hall of Fame analysis over the last decade."  It doesn't account for post season performance or awards, and it probably undervalues individual outstanding seasons.  But it seems worthwhile.

Hall of Fame ballot: Explaining Jay Jaffe's JAWS stat - Sports Illustrated

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

Top 11 are in the HoF (except Mauer, not eligible until 2022), Skips Munson and Tenace, Posey not eligible for a while, Buck Ewing is in, skips Freehan (11x all-star in 15 year career), then Campanella.  Schang and Posada, not in.  Former Giant Bresnahan is in.  Skips a bunch of good eligible catchers not in HoF (Kendall, Porter, Sundberg, Parrish) then Josh Gibson, Ernie Lombardi and Ray Schalk who are members.  Skips a whooooole lot of good catchers, including Del Crandall, Javy Lopez, Mickey Tettleton, Manny Sanguillen and others, but Rick Ferrell (41st on the list), then skips a bunch more including Bob Boone to Biz Mackey, #60 and last on the list save for Al Lopez (#129), Connie Mack (#232), and Wilbert Robinson (#249) who made the hall as managers.

I agree; it's the best starting point for HoF evaluation.

The subjective element comes in for someone like Posey, leader on three world champions and quality over quantity; should and likely will be elected. Or Campanella, who started his career late because of the color line (the same reason why I advocate for Minoso in the upcoming vote).

[Mick]

Which six sports have been dropped the most by collegiate athletic programs since 1990? I'll save the suspense. Here are the top six, with the percentage of 1990 collegiate programs that have dropped the sport since then. By the way, this nets out the college programs that have added those same sports, so the following represents a net reduction:

Men's Tennis (-21.7%)
Wrestling (-16.8%)
Men's Swimming (-15.9%)
Men's Gymnastics (-9.0%)
Baseball (-6.9%)
Men's Soccer (-6.4%)

[Mick]

Which six sports have been dropped the most by collegiate athletic programs since 1990? I'll save the suspense. Here are the top six, with the percentage of 1990 collegiate programs that have dropped the sport since then. By the way, this nets out the college programs that have added those same sports, so the following represents a net reduction:

Men's Tennis (-21.7%)
Wrestling (-16.8%)
Men's Swimming (-15.9%)
Men's Gymnastics (-9.0%)
Baseball (-6.9%)
Men's Soccer (-6.4%)

[Phogge]

Football, gymnastics, track and field, cross country, golf and field hockey.

[Phogge]

Football, gymnastics, track and field, cross country, golf and field hockey.

[Phogge]

Nine of the top ten World Series career leaders in RBI are Yankees. Who is the only non-Yankee?

[Phogge]

Nine of the top ten World Series career leaders in RBI are Yankees. Who is the only non-Yankee?

[Sophomoric]

Nine of the top ten World Series career leaders in RBI are Yankees. Who is the only non-Yankee?

Panda.

---

Ten players have hit their 300th home run in a Giants uniform.  Name them.

Mel Ott
Johnny Mize
Willie Mays
Willie McCovey
Barry Bonds
Steve Finley 
Evan Longoria 
Reggie Smith 
Carlos Beltran
Moises Alou

By the way, the Giants are the second team to hit double digits in this category. The Yankees have 15 players who have had their 300th home run in a Yankee uniform.

[Sophomoric]

Nine of the top ten World Series career leaders in RBI are Yankees. Who is the only non-Yankee?

Panda.

---

Ten players have hit their 300th home run in a Giants uniform.  Name them.

Mel Ott
Johnny Mize
Willie Mays
Willie McCovey
Barry Bonds
Steve Finley 
Evan Longoria 
Reggie Smith 
Carlos Beltran
Moises Alou

By the way, the Giants are the second team to hit double digits in this category. The Yankees have 15 players who have had their 300th home run in a Yankee uniform.

[Phogge]

Nope. The Duke of Flatbush.

[Phogge]

Nope. The Duke of Flatbush.

[BobK]

The Duke a former Giant.
Welcome to the Board sophomoric

[BobK]

The Duke a former Giant.
Welcome to the Board sophomoric

[Mick]

Reggie Jackson tied for 10th.  2/3 of his WS RBIs were in a Yankee uniform.

[Mick]

Reggie Jackson tied for 10th.  2/3 of his WS RBIs were in a Yankee uniform.

[Phogge]

In career WS hits two National Leaguers cracked the top ten. Who?

Both worked on NBC’s Game of the Week in the Fifties.

[Phogge]

In career WS hits two National Leaguers cracked the top ten. Who?

Both worked on NBC’s Game of the Week in the Fifties.

[BobK]

That's right Pee Wee
Pee wee Reese

[BobK]

That's right Pee Wee
Pee wee Reese

[Phogge]

That’s one.

---

Who is the all time leader for sacrifice bunts?

Who is the all time leader for sacrifice flies?

[Phogge]

That’s one.

---

Who is the all time leader for sacrifice bunts?

Who is the all time leader for sacrifice flies?

[BobK]

Well not Dizzy Dean or Buddy Blatner

[BobK]

Well not Dizzy Dean or Buddy Blatner

[qwerty49]

We can probably eliminate Lanier and Lemaster too.

[qwerty49]

We can probably eliminate Lanier and Lemaster too.

[Phogge]

The other National Leaguer had a short stint between Blattner and Reese.

[Phogge]

The other National Leaguer had a short stint between Blattner and Reese.