11-18-2021, 12:58 PM
Just trying to start a rumor. Beat Kal!
Wilcox to UW?
(11-18-2021, 12:58 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote: Just trying to start a rumor. Beat Kal!
I suspect that this is valid. When a coach's central message is "I really like our guys," in answer to the question, instead of a firm and unequivocal denial, the rumor floodgates open -- where they are right now. Wilcox has too great a future to be subjected to the City of Berkeley's Pecksniffian sentinels, which is exactly what he had to endure when the $C game was postponed. We want the weenie coaching door to be perpetually revolving.
Life is too short to waste on crap football.
(11-18-2021, 12:58 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote: Just trying to start a rumor. Beat Kal!
I suspect that this is valid. When a coach's central message is "I really like our guys," in answer to the question, instead of a firm and unequivocal denial, the rumor floodgates open -- where they are right now. Wilcox has too great a future to be subjected to the City of Berkeley's Pecksniffian sentinels, which is exactly what he had to endure when the $C game was postponed. We want the weenie coaching door to be perpetually revolving.
Life is too short to waste on crap football.
11-18-2021, 01:36 PM
Quote:WILCOX AND WASHINGTON: In the wake of Washington firing head coach Jimmy Lake on Sunday, Wilcox’s name has been floated — among many others — as a potential candidate for the Huskies.
Asked about that chatter, Wilcox said, “I don’t get chatter from anywhere other than on this call. Here’s what I’d say: I’m very, very fortunate to have the job I have. I think extremely highly of our players, not only their ability as football players but I love coaching these guys.
“A million people would love to have my job and I don’t take that for granted. In our profession it seems you’re either on one of two lists (to be hired or fired) and that could change by the week.”
Without actually saying he has no interest in the job, Wilcox added, “Getting into my own job security or other jobs, I just never talk about that. It doesn’t serve anybody. The hypotheticals are not something I spend any time on.
“What do you do?” he said about how he handles the talk. “We just coach football. I love coaching these guys and coaching with our staff.”
https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/11/16/c...-outbreak/
Eric
"the older we get the better we were"
Quote:WILCOX AND WASHINGTON: In the wake of Washington firing head coach Jimmy Lake on Sunday, Wilcox’s name has been floated — among many others — as a potential candidate for the Huskies.
Asked about that chatter, Wilcox said, “I don’t get chatter from anywhere other than on this call. Here’s what I’d say: I’m very, very fortunate to have the job I have. I think extremely highly of our players, not only their ability as football players but I love coaching these guys.
“A million people would love to have my job and I don’t take that for granted. In our profession it seems you’re either on one of two lists (to be hired or fired) and that could change by the week.”
Without actually saying he has no interest in the job, Wilcox added, “Getting into my own job security or other jobs, I just never talk about that. It doesn’t serve anybody. The hypotheticals are not something I spend any time on.
“What do you do?” he said about how he handles the talk. “We just coach football. I love coaching these guys and coaching with our staff.”
https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/11/16/c...-outbreak/
Eric
"the older we get the better we were"
11-18-2021, 01:42 PM
Too bad that the rumors flooding to the plains of Upper Northern California are not about another Bay Area university.
11-18-2021, 03:41 PM
(11-18-2021, 01:36 PM)82lsju Wrote:Wilcox could actually win a bunch of games at UW, and UW is in the Pac-12 North. So that's not ideal.Quote:WILCOX AND WASHINGTON: In the wake of Washington firing head coach Jimmy Lake on Sunday, Wilcox’s name has been floated — among many others — as a potential candidate for the Huskies.
Asked about that chatter, Wilcox said, “I don’t get chatter from anywhere other than on this call. Here’s what I’d say: I’m very, very fortunate to have the job I have. I think extremely highly of our players, not only their ability as football players but I love coaching these guys.
“A million people would love to have my job and I don’t take that for granted. In our profession it seems you’re either on one of two lists (to be hired or fired) and that could change by the week.”
Without actually saying he has no interest in the job, Wilcox added, “Getting into my own job security or other jobs, I just never talk about that. It doesn’t serve anybody. The hypotheticals are not something I spend any time on.
“What do you do?” he said about how he handles the talk. “We just coach football. I love coaching these guys and coaching with our staff.”
https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/11/16/c...-outbreak/
Maybe he could go to TCU. TCU is a football upgrade from UCB, and TCU has a realistic chance at winning the Big12 after OU and UT leave the conference.
I don't think he is good enough to get the LSU job, but perhaps Virginia Tech. That'd be fine too.
(11-18-2021, 01:36 PM)82lsju Wrote:Wilcox could actually win a bunch of games at UW, and UW is in the Pac-12 North. So that's not ideal.Quote:WILCOX AND WASHINGTON: In the wake of Washington firing head coach Jimmy Lake on Sunday, Wilcox’s name has been floated — among many others — as a potential candidate for the Huskies.
Asked about that chatter, Wilcox said, “I don’t get chatter from anywhere other than on this call. Here’s what I’d say: I’m very, very fortunate to have the job I have. I think extremely highly of our players, not only their ability as football players but I love coaching these guys.
“A million people would love to have my job and I don’t take that for granted. In our profession it seems you’re either on one of two lists (to be hired or fired) and that could change by the week.”
Without actually saying he has no interest in the job, Wilcox added, “Getting into my own job security or other jobs, I just never talk about that. It doesn’t serve anybody. The hypotheticals are not something I spend any time on.
“What do you do?” he said about how he handles the talk. “We just coach football. I love coaching these guys and coaching with our staff.”
https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/11/16/c...-outbreak/
Maybe he could go to TCU. TCU is a football upgrade from UCB, and TCU has a realistic chance at winning the Big12 after OU and UT leave the conference.
I don't think he is good enough to get the LSU job, but perhaps Virginia Tech. That'd be fine too.
11-18-2021, 09:08 PM
(11-18-2021, 03:41 PM)Farm93 Wrote: ]
Wilcox could actually win a bunch of games at UW, and UW is in the Pac-12 North. So that's not ideal.
Maybe he could go to TCU. TCU is a football upgrade from UCB, and TCU has a realistic chance at winning the Big12 after OU and UT leave the conference.
I don't think he is good enough to get the LSU job, but perhaps Virginia Tech. That'd be fine too.
TCU and VT are both aiming higher than Wilcox. So is UW but there is a connection there so he is a fallback option if their top targets don't work out.
(11-18-2021, 03:41 PM)Farm93 Wrote: ]
Wilcox could actually win a bunch of games at UW, and UW is in the Pac-12 North. So that's not ideal.
Maybe he could go to TCU. TCU is a football upgrade from UCB, and TCU has a realistic chance at winning the Big12 after OU and UT leave the conference.
I don't think he is good enough to get the LSU job, but perhaps Virginia Tech. That'd be fine too.
TCU and VT are both aiming higher than Wilcox. So is UW but there is a connection there so he is a fallback option if their top targets don't work out.
11-18-2021, 10:07 PM
(11-18-2021, 09:08 PM)DC 86 Wrote:He's a Duck alum. He is not allowed to go to UW. That's just the way it must be.(11-18-2021, 03:41 PM)Farm93 Wrote: ]
Wilcox could actually win a bunch of games at UW, and UW is in the Pac-12 North. So that's not ideal.
Maybe he could go to TCU. TCU is a football upgrade from UCB, and TCU has a realistic chance at winning the Big12 after OU and UT leave the conference.
I don't think he is good enough to get the LSU job, but perhaps Virginia Tech. That'd be fine too.
TCU and VT are both aiming higher than Wilcox. So is UW but there is a connection there so he is a fallback option if their top targets don't work out.
Mr. Knight will never forgive him if UW starts beating Oregon (and Stanford). So perhaps he can go to another Nike school in the USA. I am not too concerned where he goes, but at $3 million per year he will be easy for most Power 5 coaches to poach.
UCB's odds of landing another better than average coach are pretty slim given they suffer also have the same miserable local demographic challenges that Stanford deals with and they have budget and debt issues that will drive away most coaches.
(11-18-2021, 09:08 PM)DC 86 Wrote:He's a Duck alum. He is not allowed to go to UW. That's just the way it must be.(11-18-2021, 03:41 PM)Farm93 Wrote: ]
Wilcox could actually win a bunch of games at UW, and UW is in the Pac-12 North. So that's not ideal.
Maybe he could go to TCU. TCU is a football upgrade from UCB, and TCU has a realistic chance at winning the Big12 after OU and UT leave the conference.
I don't think he is good enough to get the LSU job, but perhaps Virginia Tech. That'd be fine too.
TCU and VT are both aiming higher than Wilcox. So is UW but there is a connection there so he is a fallback option if their top targets don't work out.
Mr. Knight will never forgive him if UW starts beating Oregon (and Stanford). So perhaps he can go to another Nike school in the USA. I am not too concerned where he goes, but at $3 million per year he will be easy for most Power 5 coaches to poach.
UCB's odds of landing another better than average coach are pretty slim given they suffer also have the same miserable local demographic challenges that Stanford deals with and they have budget and debt issues that will drive away most coaches.
11-19-2021, 09:46 AM
(11-18-2021, 10:07 PM)Farm93 Wrote:(11-18-2021, 09:08 PM)DC 86 Wrote:He's a Duck alum. He is not allowed to go to UW. That's just the way it must be.(11-18-2021, 03:41 PM)Farm93 Wrote: ]
Wilcox could actually win a bunch of games at UW, and UW is in the Pac-12 North. So that's not ideal.
Maybe he could go to TCU. TCU is a football upgrade from UCB, and TCU has a realistic chance at winning the Big12 after OU and UT leave the conference.
I don't think he is good enough to get the LSU job, but perhaps Virginia Tech. That'd be fine too.
TCU and VT are both aiming higher than Wilcox. So is UW but there is a connection there so he is a fallback option if their top targets don't work out.
Mr. Knight will never forgive him if UW starts beating Oregon (and Stanford). So perhaps he can go to another Nike school in the USA. I am not too concerned where he goes, but at $3 million per year he will be easy for most Power 5 coaches to poach.
UCB's odds of landing another better than average coach are pretty slim given they suffer also have the same miserable local demographic challenges that Stanford deals with and they have budget and debt issues that will drive away most coaches.
Good points, well put. The Berkeley baggage grows worse as time goes by. Not exactly a plum job today, all things considered.
Life is too short to waste on crap football.
(11-18-2021, 10:07 PM)Farm93 Wrote:(11-18-2021, 09:08 PM)DC 86 Wrote:He's a Duck alum. He is not allowed to go to UW. That's just the way it must be.(11-18-2021, 03:41 PM)Farm93 Wrote: ]
Wilcox could actually win a bunch of games at UW, and UW is in the Pac-12 North. So that's not ideal.
Maybe he could go to TCU. TCU is a football upgrade from UCB, and TCU has a realistic chance at winning the Big12 after OU and UT leave the conference.
I don't think he is good enough to get the LSU job, but perhaps Virginia Tech. That'd be fine too.
TCU and VT are both aiming higher than Wilcox. So is UW but there is a connection there so he is a fallback option if their top targets don't work out.
Mr. Knight will never forgive him if UW starts beating Oregon (and Stanford). So perhaps he can go to another Nike school in the USA. I am not too concerned where he goes, but at $3 million per year he will be easy for most Power 5 coaches to poach.
UCB's odds of landing another better than average coach are pretty slim given they suffer also have the same miserable local demographic challenges that Stanford deals with and they have budget and debt issues that will drive away most coaches.
Good points, well put. The Berkeley baggage grows worse as time goes by. Not exactly a plum job today, all things considered.
Life is too short to waste on crap football.
11-19-2021, 09:49 AM
Wait, why do we want Wilcox to leave Berkeley? He’s been there five years and his best record is 8-5 with a trip to the Redbox bowl. He’s 4-9 the last two years.
BC
BC
Wait, why do we want Wilcox to leave Berkeley? He’s been there five years and his best record is 8-5 with a trip to the Redbox bowl. He’s 4-9 the last two years.
BC
BC
11-19-2021, 09:54 AM
I don't think we have to worry much about UW selecting Wilcox. Whether he is a good coach or a bad coach totally set aside, the idea of poaching a coach from Kal who never won anything just wouldn't make it with the UW fan base. There would also be a buyout to UCB (although not a real big one). I just don't see how the UW "brain trust" could justify that to their fans. That isn't to say nobody would take Wilcox, just that UW won't.
I don't think we have to worry much about UW selecting Wilcox. Whether he is a good coach or a bad coach totally set aside, the idea of poaching a coach from Kal who never won anything just wouldn't make it with the UW fan base. There would also be a buyout to UCB (although not a real big one). I just don't see how the UW "brain trust" could justify that to their fans. That isn't to say nobody would take Wilcox, just that UW won't.
11-19-2021, 10:06 AM
(11-19-2021, 09:54 AM)Goose Wrote: I don't think we have to worry much about UW selecting Wilcox. Whether he is a good coach or a bad coach totally set aside, the idea of poaching a coach from Kal who never won anything just wouldn't make it with the UW fan base. There would also be a buyout to UCB (although not a real big one). I just don't see how the UW "brain trust" could justify that to their fans. That isn't to say nobody would take Wilcox, just that UW won't.
Well said.
If you were Fickell (or some other coach-in-demand), which job would you rather have: USC or UW? I don't think it's that crazy a question because UW has real program history and a fan base that is solid (as opposed to . . . well . . .LA-ish). Still, I'd probably take the former, if only because I think the prospect of beating Utah/winning the south regularly is much greater than beating Oregon/winning the north. And you have to win the division before you can do BIG THINGS.
(11-19-2021, 09:54 AM)Goose Wrote: I don't think we have to worry much about UW selecting Wilcox. Whether he is a good coach or a bad coach totally set aside, the idea of poaching a coach from Kal who never won anything just wouldn't make it with the UW fan base. There would also be a buyout to UCB (although not a real big one). I just don't see how the UW "brain trust" could justify that to their fans. That isn't to say nobody would take Wilcox, just that UW won't.
Well said.
If you were Fickell (or some other coach-in-demand), which job would you rather have: USC or UW? I don't think it's that crazy a question because UW has real program history and a fan base that is solid (as opposed to . . . well . . .LA-ish). Still, I'd probably take the former, if only because I think the prospect of beating Utah/winning the south regularly is much greater than beating Oregon/winning the north. And you have to win the division before you can do BIG THINGS.
11-19-2021, 11:06 AM
(11-19-2021, 10:06 AM)teejers1 Wrote: If you were Fickell (or some other coach-in-demand), which job would you rather have: USC or UW?Probably I would say the correct answer is neither, but for different reasons.
Quote: I don't think it's that crazy a question because UW has real program history and a fan base that is solid (as opposed to . . . well . . .LA-ish). Still, I'd probably take the former, if only because I think the prospect of beating Utah/winning the south regularly is much greater than beating Oregon/winning the north. And you have to win the division before you can do BIG THINGS.I would really like to hear from Coach Petersen (off the record) about the UW fan base. Both the U$C fan base and the UW fan base seem to think they are entitled to championships every year. Assuming you aren't going to cheat in some fashion that probably just isn't possible. I think the UW fan base gets ugly about it much faster than the U$C fan base does (after all, it is LA). Both schools have significant internal tensions about football, but I think the UW situation is also worse in that regard. Both fan bases seem to get madder when the team is close but not quite there. If they are mediocre (certainly at U$C) there is lots of bitching but not rancor. It seems that if you get close and fall short it is worse and more bitter.
(11-19-2021, 10:06 AM)teejers1 Wrote: If you were Fickell (or some other coach-in-demand), which job would you rather have: USC or UW?Probably I would say the correct answer is neither, but for different reasons.
Quote: I don't think it's that crazy a question because UW has real program history and a fan base that is solid (as opposed to . . . well . . .LA-ish). Still, I'd probably take the former, if only because I think the prospect of beating Utah/winning the south regularly is much greater than beating Oregon/winning the north. And you have to win the division before you can do BIG THINGS.I would really like to hear from Coach Petersen (off the record) about the UW fan base. Both the U$C fan base and the UW fan base seem to think they are entitled to championships every year. Assuming you aren't going to cheat in some fashion that probably just isn't possible. I think the UW fan base gets ugly about it much faster than the U$C fan base does (after all, it is LA). Both schools have significant internal tensions about football, but I think the UW situation is also worse in that regard. Both fan bases seem to get madder when the team is close but not quite there. If they are mediocre (certainly at U$C) there is lots of bitching but not rancor. It seems that if you get close and fall short it is worse and more bitter.
11-19-2021, 01:46 PM
(11-19-2021, 11:06 AM)Goose Wrote:(11-19-2021, 10:06 AM)teejers1 Wrote: If you were Fickell (or some other coach-in-demand), which job would you rather have: USC or UW?Probably I would say the correct answer is neither, but for different reasons.
Quote: I don't think it's that crazy a question because UW has real program history and a fan base that is solid (as opposed to . . . well . . .LA-ish). Still, I'd probably take the former, if only because I think the prospect of beating Utah/winning the south regularly is much greater than beating Oregon/winning the north. And you have to win the division before you can do BIG THINGS.I would really like to hear from Coach Petersen (off the record) about the UW fan base. Both the U$C fan base and the UW fan base seem to think they are entitled to championships every year. Assuming you aren't going to cheat in some fashion that probably just isn't possible. I think the UW fan base gets ugly about it much faster than the U$C fan base does (after all, it is LA). Both schools have significant internal tensions about football, but I think the UW situation is also worse in that regard. Both fan bases seem to get madder when the team is close but not quite there. If they are mediocre (certainly at U$C) there is lots of bitching but not rancor. It seems that if you get close and fall short it is worse and more bitter.
What little personal exposure (FtF) I have had to Husky Nation has not been all that pleasant, but it's limited. Frankly, the most blatantly obnoxious encounters--far and away--have been Cal fans. Year in and year out. Really crude, ugly behavior by old and young alike. Very strange.
Life is too short to waste on crap football.
(11-19-2021, 11:06 AM)Goose Wrote:(11-19-2021, 10:06 AM)teejers1 Wrote: If you were Fickell (or some other coach-in-demand), which job would you rather have: USC or UW?Probably I would say the correct answer is neither, but for different reasons.
Quote: I don't think it's that crazy a question because UW has real program history and a fan base that is solid (as opposed to . . . well . . .LA-ish). Still, I'd probably take the former, if only because I think the prospect of beating Utah/winning the south regularly is much greater than beating Oregon/winning the north. And you have to win the division before you can do BIG THINGS.I would really like to hear from Coach Petersen (off the record) about the UW fan base. Both the U$C fan base and the UW fan base seem to think they are entitled to championships every year. Assuming you aren't going to cheat in some fashion that probably just isn't possible. I think the UW fan base gets ugly about it much faster than the U$C fan base does (after all, it is LA). Both schools have significant internal tensions about football, but I think the UW situation is also worse in that regard. Both fan bases seem to get madder when the team is close but not quite there. If they are mediocre (certainly at U$C) there is lots of bitching but not rancor. It seems that if you get close and fall short it is worse and more bitter.
What little personal exposure (FtF) I have had to Husky Nation has not been all that pleasant, but it's limited. Frankly, the most blatantly obnoxious encounters--far and away--have been Cal fans. Year in and year out. Really crude, ugly behavior by old and young alike. Very strange.
Life is too short to waste on crap football.
11-19-2021, 02:16 PM
(11-19-2021, 09:49 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Wait, why do we want Wilcox to leave Berkeley? He’s been there five years and his best record is 8-5 with a trip to the Redbox bowl. He’s 4-9 the last two years.
BC
Yeah, I have a hard time understanding why so many people seem to think Wilcox is this great and upcoming coach. His record at Beserkley is, IMO, fairly mediocre.
(11-19-2021, 09:49 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Wait, why do we want Wilcox to leave Berkeley? He’s been there five years and his best record is 8-5 with a trip to the Redbox bowl. He’s 4-9 the last two years.
BC
Yeah, I have a hard time understanding why so many people seem to think Wilcox is this great and upcoming coach. His record at Beserkley is, IMO, fairly mediocre.
11-19-2021, 02:58 PM
(11-19-2021, 02:16 PM)JohnR34231 Wrote:(11-19-2021, 09:49 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Wait, why do we want Wilcox to leave Berkeley? He’s been there five years and his best record is 8-5 with a trip to the Redbox bowl. He’s 4-9 the last two years.
BC
Yeah, I have a hard time understanding why so many people seem to think Wilcox is this great and upcoming coach. His record at Beserkley is, IMO, fairly mediocre.
I think the reasoning is that coaching instability (i.e., a perpetual revolving door) is generally a good thing to observe at your rival, as it disrupts the process of building a lasting, successful program. If Wilcox leaves, the Bear athletic department will be scrambling to find a replacement and may pick a lemon, which sets them back three to four years. All good for us, as we scramble to find our own direction out of the current malaise.
(11-19-2021, 02:16 PM)JohnR34231 Wrote:(11-19-2021, 09:49 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Wait, why do we want Wilcox to leave Berkeley? He’s been there five years and his best record is 8-5 with a trip to the Redbox bowl. He’s 4-9 the last two years.
BC
Yeah, I have a hard time understanding why so many people seem to think Wilcox is this great and upcoming coach. His record at Beserkley is, IMO, fairly mediocre.
I think the reasoning is that coaching instability (i.e., a perpetual revolving door) is generally a good thing to observe at your rival, as it disrupts the process of building a lasting, successful program. If Wilcox leaves, the Bear athletic department will be scrambling to find a replacement and may pick a lemon, which sets them back three to four years. All good for us, as we scramble to find our own direction out of the current malaise.
11-19-2021, 06:40 PM
(11-19-2021, 02:16 PM)JohnR34231 Wrote:(11-19-2021, 09:49 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Wait, why do we want Wilcox to leave Berkeley? He’s been there five years and his best record is 8-5 with a trip to the Redbox bowl. He’s 4-9 the last two years.
BC
Yeah, I have a hard time understanding why so many people seem to think Wilcox is this great and upcoming coach. His record at Beserkley is, IMO, fairly mediocre.
His proponents point to the whole Berkeley thing: ambivalence about big-time football, etc. But the sticking point is now all about the city's meddling and the Covid-related fiasco. No coach can perennially abide this nonsense and it's part of the zeitgeist over there. Could have been the last straw. We'll see.
Life is too short to waste on crap football.
(11-19-2021, 02:16 PM)JohnR34231 Wrote:(11-19-2021, 09:49 AM)BostonCard Wrote: Wait, why do we want Wilcox to leave Berkeley? He’s been there five years and his best record is 8-5 with a trip to the Redbox bowl. He’s 4-9 the last two years.
BC
Yeah, I have a hard time understanding why so many people seem to think Wilcox is this great and upcoming coach. His record at Beserkley is, IMO, fairly mediocre.
His proponents point to the whole Berkeley thing: ambivalence about big-time football, etc. But the sticking point is now all about the city's meddling and the Covid-related fiasco. No coach can perennially abide this nonsense and it's part of the zeitgeist over there. Could have been the last straw. We'll see.
Life is too short to waste on crap football.
11-19-2021, 06:53 PM
I get why Wilcox might want to leave Berkeley; I don’t get why that would necessarily be a good thing for us. Goose does make a good pint, that Wilcox leaving likely would sow some chaos and that is a good thing. However, there is always a chance that Cal would luck into a good coach, which would be bad for Stanford, IMHO.
BC
BC
I get why Wilcox might want to leave Berkeley; I don’t get why that would necessarily be a good thing for us. Goose does make a good pint, that Wilcox leaving likely would sow some chaos and that is a good thing. However, there is always a chance that Cal would luck into a good coach, which would be bad for Stanford, IMHO.
BC
BC
11-19-2021, 08:03 PM
I thought the premise of this thread was to upset the Weenies by starting a rumor their coach is leaving -- not that we want him to leave.
11-19-2021, 08:13 PM
(11-19-2021, 08:03 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: I thought the premise of this thread was to upset the Weenies by starting a rumor their coach is leaving -- not that we want him to leave.That horse left the barn on Sunday. In fact, several UW football folks (Brock Huard fir example) have suggested it. It was already a "rumor" in play. While I doubt it will happen, apparently it is a possibility. I wonder if Stanford winning tomorrow makes it more probable or less probable?
(11-19-2021, 08:03 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: I thought the premise of this thread was to upset the Weenies by starting a rumor their coach is leaving -- not that we want him to leave.That horse left the barn on Sunday. In fact, several UW football folks (Brock Huard fir example) have suggested it. It was already a "rumor" in play. While I doubt it will happen, apparently it is a possibility. I wonder if Stanford winning tomorrow makes it more probable or less probable?
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »