[Langdude]

Drake Nugent now in the portal. https://twitter.com/max_olson/status/159...pOQwmWMBRA

See SMF's post above...

-m.

Nope, now BOTH Drakes are in the portal.

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

[Langdude]

Drake Nugent now in the portal. https://twitter.com/max_olson/status/159...pOQwmWMBRA

See SMF's post above...

-m.

Nope, now BOTH Drakes are in the portal.

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

[Austroturf]

See SMF's post above...

-m.

Nope, now BOTH Drakes are in the portal.

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

OK, found it there.  Great work.  Do any of the 5th year players have a 6th year of eligibility (due to the Covid year).  If so, are any of them expected to return?  

So far, it appears that only Metcalf is a non-graduate portal entrant.

[Austroturf]

See SMF's post above...

-m.

Nope, now BOTH Drakes are in the portal.

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

OK, found it there.  Great work.  Do any of the 5th year players have a 6th year of eligibility (due to the Covid year).  If so, are any of them expected to return?  

So far, it appears that only Metcalf is a non-graduate portal entrant.

[msqueri]

Nope, now BOTH Drakes are in the portal.

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

OK, found it there.  Great work.  Do any of the 5th year players have a 6th year of eligibility (due to the Covid year).  If so, are any of them expected to return?  

So far, it appears that only Metcalf is a non-graduate portal entrant.

Literally everybody except for Fields and Williamson has eligibility and people talking about guys graduating as a reason to move on have the mentality that has led to the gutting of Stanford football’s roster for the foreseeable future.

[msqueri]

Nope, now BOTH Drakes are in the portal.

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

OK, found it there.  Great work.  Do any of the 5th year players have a 6th year of eligibility (due to the Covid year).  If so, are any of them expected to return?  

So far, it appears that only Metcalf is a non-graduate portal entrant.

Literally everybody except for Fields and Williamson has eligibility and people talking about guys graduating as a reason to move on have the mentality that has led to the gutting of Stanford football’s roster for the foreseeable future.

[TonyLima]

Damuni in portal as grad transfer per his social media. DL Jacob Katona in portal per 24/7 portal tracker. PWO who is an academic sophomore?

Seven others are also graduating, will play somewhere as grad students. Shame on the Mercury-News for this clickbait headline.
[url=https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/12/02/several-stanford-players-set-to-transfer-as-search-for-david-shaws-replacement-continues][/url]

Puzzled as to why you're shaming the Merc-News. Is the headline factually incorrect or misleading?  As for click-bait, headline writers are valued and remain employed by their skill to attract readership. It's in the business model.  :)

Here’s the email I got. IMHO players who will be grad students nexy year should be treated differently. Not all Stanford grads can get in to Stanford grad school. Stanford may not offer the field they want to pursue. Some don’t have the grades, recommendations, etc.  I have stories but I won’t tell them because I respect their privacy. 

Re the headline, it should have included the very important info that all eight of the players mentioned were graduating. If that violates the contract terms of headline writers, so be it. You might look into the subscription options for the Merc. PM me and I’ll send you a link to one of my articles about this.

---

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

OK, found it there.  Great work.  Do any of the 5th year players have a 6th year of eligibility (due to the Covid year).  If so, are any of them expected to return?  

So far, it appears that only Metcalf is a non-graduate portal entrant.

Literally everybody except for Fields and Williamson has eligibility and people talking about guys graduating as a reason to move on have the mentality that has led to the gutting of Stanford football’s roster for the foreseeable future.

See my reply above.

[TonyLima]

Damuni in portal as grad transfer per his social media. DL Jacob Katona in portal per 24/7 portal tracker. PWO who is an academic sophomore?

Seven others are also graduating, will play somewhere as grad students. Shame on the Mercury-News for this clickbait headline.
[url=https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/12/02/several-stanford-players-set-to-transfer-as-search-for-david-shaws-replacement-continues][/url]

Puzzled as to why you're shaming the Merc-News. Is the headline factually incorrect or misleading?  As for click-bait, headline writers are valued and remain employed by their skill to attract readership. It's in the business model.  :)

Here’s the email I got. IMHO players who will be grad students nexy year should be treated differently. Not all Stanford grads can get in to Stanford grad school. Stanford may not offer the field they want to pursue. Some don’t have the grades, recommendations, etc.  I have stories but I won’t tell them because I respect their privacy. 

Re the headline, it should have included the very important info that all eight of the players mentioned were graduating. If that violates the contract terms of headline writers, so be it. You might look into the subscription options for the Merc. PM me and I’ll send you a link to one of my articles about this.

---

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

OK, found it there.  Great work.  Do any of the 5th year players have a 6th year of eligibility (due to the Covid year).  If so, are any of them expected to return?  

So far, it appears that only Metcalf is a non-graduate portal entrant.

Literally everybody except for Fields and Williamson has eligibility and people talking about guys graduating as a reason to move on have the mentality that has led to the gutting of Stanford football’s roster for the foreseeable future.

See my reply above.

[Austroturf]

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

OK, found it there.  Great work.  Do any of the 5th year players have a 6th year of eligibility (due to the Covid year).  If so, are any of them expected to return?  

So far, it appears that only Metcalf is a non-graduate portal entrant.

Literally everybody except for Fields and Williamson has eligibility and people talking about guys graduating as a reason to move on have the mentality that has led to the gutting of Stanford football’s roster for the foreseeable future.

I am also trying to wrap my head around that.  5th-year seniors are not a new phenomenon.  At least they used to be fairly common.  Is a 5th-year senior some kind of oddity today?  Assuming a player redshirts his freshman year (relatively standard practice during Shaw's tenure) and has four years of eligibility at the beginning of his academic sophomore year, then full usage of that eligibility requires a 5th academic year.  What did all those previous 5th-year seniors do?  Did they push some undergraduate courses into their 5th years to remain enrolled?  What, other than the portal, has changed?

[Austroturf]

OH! My bad, Jamesy. I should have read more carefully.

Holy crap. What a mess.

By the by, I am demarcating all declared transfer portals in the personnel grid.

-m.

Where can we see this?

If you look on the 2022 Stanford Football Personnel grid, you'll see in the footnote legend that a carat (^) after a name signifies that they are in the transfer portal.

-m.

OK, found it there.  Great work.  Do any of the 5th year players have a 6th year of eligibility (due to the Covid year).  If so, are any of them expected to return?  

So far, it appears that only Metcalf is a non-graduate portal entrant.

Literally everybody except for Fields and Williamson has eligibility and people talking about guys graduating as a reason to move on have the mentality that has led to the gutting of Stanford football’s roster for the foreseeable future.

I am also trying to wrap my head around that.  5th-year seniors are not a new phenomenon.  At least they used to be fairly common.  Is a 5th-year senior some kind of oddity today?  Assuming a player redshirts his freshman year (relatively standard practice during Shaw's tenure) and has four years of eligibility at the beginning of his academic sophomore year, then full usage of that eligibility requires a 5th academic year.  What did all those previous 5th-year seniors do?  Did they push some undergraduate courses into their 5th years to remain enrolled?  What, other than the portal, has changed?

[msqueri]

Fifth year seniors have become an oddity at Stanford but they happen elsewhere. In the COVID era sixth and seventh year players are pretty common.

What's changed is manifold. A few of those things:

* Stanford football players now enroll in summer school. If you take AP credits plus early summer school enrollment plus summer schools in subsequent years plus load up on classes it's amazing how quickly you can graduate. If anybody among David Bailey, Sam Roush, or Mudia Reuben - who all enrolled not one, not two, but three academic quarters early (essentially an academic year) - stay at Stanford long enough they might set the record for quickest to graduation in school history.

* Shaw fetishized the 40 year decision, value of the Stanford degree, ability to leverage football into not only undergrad degrees but grad degrees as well, and so forth to such an extreme extent, not to mention his strong predisposition to Stanford Men and self-selectors generally, that the composition of the roster over time became heavily tilted to the types who would load up on classes (and thus focus on football less....sorry), bolt from their brothers to get additional professional credentials, and so forth.

* The pre-NIL period/changing of the zeitgeist in college football exacerbated the sense among Stanford football players (more cerebral/analytical than most) that their labor was not being properly compensated, feeding into "looking out for number one" and "I'm gonna get mine" sentiments. Importantly, these were not just individual views but an overall vibe shift across the locker room. Recall that when McCaffrey bailed on the bowl game his teammates actually supported him. It was the most natural thing in the world for them to view his economic decision as a reasonable career decision. It's not about team goals, they all understand this is transactional and support one another in that.

* Tying those points together a bit, Shaw seemed to actively encourage the transactional aspects. Coming to Stanford was about the 40 year decision, not what you build with your brothers. You can get a master's at Indiana rather than shore up Stanford's DL? Good for you!

* For these reasons and because of the ease of graduate transferring, norms shifted to make getting a masters degree much more normal for Stanford football players. Since it's difficult to get into Stanford grad programs, that created a push factor away from the team for players to seek the now normal grad degree elsewhere, rather than majoring in football for a super senior sole quarter of a fifth year like normal football players at Stanford and across the country have done since time immemorial.

* As players started accumulating units to graduate earlier and quicker in reaction to these trends, they were in a position to graduate earlier. Out of understandable pride, they applied to graduate when able, creating a fait accompli on needing to go elsewhere if they couldn't get into grad school at Stanford. That essentially pushed them out the door by default, given the trends/zeitgeist/incentives that prevail. Whereas players since time immemorial spread out units across their time at Stanford to make the workload more manageable, knowing an extra quarter existed in the fifth year, now players load up on units throughout their career to graduate earlier and give themselves more options. [This also presumably has serious effects on the football focus/energy/dedication/etc. of the team as it's a lot harder to juggle 20 units than 15 or whatever it is. As a wise man said on TOS, "the thought that guys that used to hit the weight room hard in the offseason to get better are now hitting the library hard to get out is sobering."]

* As Shaw surveyed the changing landscape both at Stanford and nationally (as well as with rules changes related to redshirts, transfers, the COVID year, etc.), he confronted a confounding "roster management" situation, as he frequently reminded us. It's so hard to know how many scholarship spots you have in this environment. To make this more manageable, he leaned into the shifting norms above and encouraged players to go to the NFL when they could, to get masters degrees elsewhere when they could. Win-win, his high-minded, deontological, football loser mentality thought.

I actually think I can think of more reasons but will stop there. Major change in how we operate and truly devastating to systematically deprive yourself of the best football years of your players.

Tony Lima, I did read your post. I just think your mentality is reflective of Shaw's, which got us in this place. Straight-up loser from a football perspective. Not saying it's not high-minded, but it's not how Ralston, Walsh, Harbaugh or coaches across America built their teams. These guys are here to play football. Sorry, they just are. Only playing football until you graduate is not what college football is.

[msqueri]

Fifth year seniors have become an oddity at Stanford but they happen elsewhere. In the COVID era sixth and seventh year players are pretty common.

What's changed is manifold. A few of those things:

* Stanford football players now enroll in summer school. If you take AP credits plus early summer school enrollment plus summer schools in subsequent years plus load up on classes it's amazing how quickly you can graduate. If anybody among David Bailey, Sam Roush, or Mudia Reuben - who all enrolled not one, not two, but three academic quarters early (essentially an academic year) - stay at Stanford long enough they might set the record for quickest to graduation in school history.

* Shaw fetishized the 40 year decision, value of the Stanford degree, ability to leverage football into not only undergrad degrees but grad degrees as well, and so forth to such an extreme extent, not to mention his strong predisposition to Stanford Men and self-selectors generally, that the composition of the roster over time became heavily tilted to the types who would load up on classes (and thus focus on football less....sorry), bolt from their brothers to get additional professional credentials, and so forth.

* The pre-NIL period/changing of the zeitgeist in college football exacerbated the sense among Stanford football players (more cerebral/analytical than most) that their labor was not being properly compensated, feeding into "looking out for number one" and "I'm gonna get mine" sentiments. Importantly, these were not just individual views but an overall vibe shift across the locker room. Recall that when McCaffrey bailed on the bowl game his teammates actually supported him. It was the most natural thing in the world for them to view his economic decision as a reasonable career decision. It's not about team goals, they all understand this is transactional and support one another in that.

* Tying those points together a bit, Shaw seemed to actively encourage the transactional aspects. Coming to Stanford was about the 40 year decision, not what you build with your brothers. You can get a master's at Indiana rather than shore up Stanford's DL? Good for you!

* For these reasons and because of the ease of graduate transferring, norms shifted to make getting a masters degree much more normal for Stanford football players. Since it's difficult to get into Stanford grad programs, that created a push factor away from the team for players to seek the now normal grad degree elsewhere, rather than majoring in football for a super senior sole quarter of a fifth year like normal football players at Stanford and across the country have done since time immemorial.

* As players started accumulating units to graduate earlier and quicker in reaction to these trends, they were in a position to graduate earlier. Out of understandable pride, they applied to graduate when able, creating a fait accompli on needing to go elsewhere if they couldn't get into grad school at Stanford. That essentially pushed them out the door by default, given the trends/zeitgeist/incentives that prevail. Whereas players since time immemorial spread out units across their time at Stanford to make the workload more manageable, knowing an extra quarter existed in the fifth year, now players load up on units throughout their career to graduate earlier and give themselves more options. [This also presumably has serious effects on the football focus/energy/dedication/etc. of the team as it's a lot harder to juggle 20 units than 15 or whatever it is. As a wise man said on TOS, "the thought that guys that used to hit the weight room hard in the offseason to get better are now hitting the library hard to get out is sobering."]

* As Shaw surveyed the changing landscape both at Stanford and nationally (as well as with rules changes related to redshirts, transfers, the COVID year, etc.), he confronted a confounding "roster management" situation, as he frequently reminded us. It's so hard to know how many scholarship spots you have in this environment. To make this more manageable, he leaned into the shifting norms above and encouraged players to go to the NFL when they could, to get masters degrees elsewhere when they could. Win-win, his high-minded, deontological, football loser mentality thought.

I actually think I can think of more reasons but will stop there. Major change in how we operate and truly devastating to systematically deprive yourself of the best football years of your players.

Tony Lima, I did read your post. I just think your mentality is reflective of Shaw's, which got us in this place. Straight-up loser from a football perspective. Not saying it's not high-minded, but it's not how Ralston, Walsh, Harbaugh or coaches across America built their teams. These guys are here to play football. Sorry, they just are. Only playing football until you graduate is not what college football is.

[Goose]

I am also trying to wrap my head around that.  5th-year seniors are not a new phenomenon.  At least they used to be fairly common.  Is a 5th-year senior some kind of oddity today?  Assuming a player redshirts his freshman year (relatively standard practice during Shaw's tenure) and has four years of eligibility at the beginning of his academic sophomore year, then full usage of that eligibility requires a 5th academic year.  What did all those previous 5th-year seniors do?  Did they push some undergraduate courses into their 5th years to remain enrolled?  What, other than the portal, has changed?

What has changed is that before the portal existed the football players who redshirted had no alternative other than delay graduation to play another year at Stanford. They couldn't go elsewhere. Now they can. It is that simple. Back in the day some guys actually went to graduate school at Stanford if they could, but most couldn't. Grad transfers have been possible even longer than the current wild west and indeed they have changed the landscape. The ability to grad transfer is a GREAT thing for the players, as they can get all or part of a master's paid for that before they themselves would have to pay for. In many cases I fear the new, "improved" system where anybody can transfer will make it more difficult for the grad transfers to find a gig. A good player you can use for two years is better than an equivalent player you only can use for one.

[Goose]

I am also trying to wrap my head around that.  5th-year seniors are not a new phenomenon.  At least they used to be fairly common.  Is a 5th-year senior some kind of oddity today?  Assuming a player redshirts his freshman year (relatively standard practice during Shaw's tenure) and has four years of eligibility at the beginning of his academic sophomore year, then full usage of that eligibility requires a 5th academic year.  What did all those previous 5th-year seniors do?  Did they push some undergraduate courses into their 5th years to remain enrolled?  What, other than the portal, has changed?

What has changed is that before the portal existed the football players who redshirted had no alternative other than delay graduation to play another year at Stanford. They couldn't go elsewhere. Now they can. It is that simple. Back in the day some guys actually went to graduate school at Stanford if they could, but most couldn't. Grad transfers have been possible even longer than the current wild west and indeed they have changed the landscape. The ability to grad transfer is a GREAT thing for the players, as they can get all or part of a master's paid for that before they themselves would have to pay for. In many cases I fear the new, "improved" system where anybody can transfer will make it more difficult for the grad transfers to find a gig. A good player you can use for two years is better than an equivalent player you only can use for one.

[lex24]

Fifth year seniors have become an oddity at Stanford but they happen elsewhere. In the COVID era sixth and seventh year players are pretty common.

What's changed is manifold. A few of those things:

* Stanford football players now enroll in summer school. If you take AP credits plus early summer school enrollment plus summer schools in subsequent years plus load up on classes it's amazing how quickly you can graduate. If anybody among David Bailey, Sam Roush, or Mudia Reuben - who all enrolled not one, not two, but three academic quarters early (essentially an academic year) - stay at Stanford long enough they might set the record for quickest to graduation in school history.

* Shaw fetishized the 40 year decision, value of the Stanford degree, ability to leverage football into not only undergrad degrees but grad degrees as well, and so forth to such an extreme extent, not to mention his strong predisposition to Stanford Men and self-selectors generally, that the composition of the roster over time became heavily tilted to the types who would load up on classes (and thus focus on football less....sorry), bolt from their brothers to get additional professional credentials, and so forth.

* The pre-NIL period/changing of the zeitgeist in college football exacerbated the sense among Stanford football players (more cerebral/analytical than most) that their labor was not being properly compensated, feeding into "looking out for number one" and "I'm gonna get mine" sentiments. Importantly, these were not just individual views but an overall vibe shift across the locker room. Recall that when McCaffrey bailed on the bowl game his teammates actually supported him. It was the most natural thing in the world for them to view his economic decision as a reasonable career decision. It's not about team goals, they all understand this is transactional and support one another in that.

* Tying those points together a bit, Shaw seemed to actively encourage the transactional aspects. Coming to Stanford was about the 40 year decision, not what you build with your brothers. You can get a master's at Indiana rather than shore up Stanford's DL? Good for you!

* For these reasons and because of the ease of graduate transferring, norms shifted to make getting a masters degree much more normal for Stanford football players. Since it's difficult to get into Stanford grad programs, that created a push factor away from the team for players to seek the now normal grad degree elsewhere, rather than majoring in football for a super senior sole quarter of a fifth year like normal football players at Stanford and across the country have done since time immemorial.

* As players started accumulating units to graduate earlier and quicker in reaction to these trends, they were in a position to graduate earlier. Out of understandable pride, they applied to graduate when able, creating a fait accompli on needing to go elsewhere if they couldn't get into grad school at Stanford. That essentially pushed them out the door by default, given the trends/zeitgeist/incentives that prevail. Whereas players since time immemorial spread out units across their time at Stanford to make the workload more manageable, knowing an extra quarter existed in the fifth year, now players load up on units throughout their career to graduate earlier and give themselves more options. [This also presumably has serious effects on the football focus/energy/dedication/etc. of the team as it's a lot harder to juggle 20 units than 15 or whatever it is. As a wise man said on TOS, "the thought that guys that used to hit the weight room hard in the offseason to get better are now hitting the library hard to get out is sobering."]

* As Shaw surveyed the changing landscape both at Stanford and nationally (as well as with rules changes related to redshirts, transfers, the COVID year, etc.), he confronted a confounding "roster management" situation, as he frequently reminded us. It's so hard to know how many scholarship spots you have in this environment. To make this more manageable, he leaned into the shifting norms above and encouraged players to go to the NFL when they could, to get masters degrees elsewhere when they could. Win-win, his high-minded, deontological, football loser mentality thought.

I actually think I can think of more reasons but will stop there. Major change in how we operate and truly devastating to systematically deprive yourself of the best football years of your players.

Tony Lima, I did read your post. I just think your mentality is reflective of Shaw's, which got us in this place. Straight-up loser from a football perspective. Not saying it's not high-minded, but it's not how Ralston, Walsh, Harbaugh or coaches across America built their teams. These guys are here to play football. Sorry, they just are. Only playing football until you graduate is not what college football is.

Shaw is now gone.   New HC will have to figure out how to navigate with the New World Order of College football and Stanford admin/admissions.  Won’t be easy.

Reading between the lines of your “discussion “, it seems that Shaw actually cared about his players. As human beings. And believed in the quaint but anachronistic notion of “student-athlete.” Foolish, perhaps. But somewhat admirable. (For all but a few, btw, that Masters at Indiana is considerably more more valuable than a fifth year of football.)

Shaw’s legacy is simple - he took the program to heights none of us had seen or ( if honest with ourselves) believed possible. Then horrifically crashed and burned. He wears both. Credit for the former. Blame for the latter.

In any event, time to move on.

[lex24]

Fifth year seniors have become an oddity at Stanford but they happen elsewhere. In the COVID era sixth and seventh year players are pretty common.

What's changed is manifold. A few of those things:

* Stanford football players now enroll in summer school. If you take AP credits plus early summer school enrollment plus summer schools in subsequent years plus load up on classes it's amazing how quickly you can graduate. If anybody among David Bailey, Sam Roush, or Mudia Reuben - who all enrolled not one, not two, but three academic quarters early (essentially an academic year) - stay at Stanford long enough they might set the record for quickest to graduation in school history.

* Shaw fetishized the 40 year decision, value of the Stanford degree, ability to leverage football into not only undergrad degrees but grad degrees as well, and so forth to such an extreme extent, not to mention his strong predisposition to Stanford Men and self-selectors generally, that the composition of the roster over time became heavily tilted to the types who would load up on classes (and thus focus on football less....sorry), bolt from their brothers to get additional professional credentials, and so forth.

* The pre-NIL period/changing of the zeitgeist in college football exacerbated the sense among Stanford football players (more cerebral/analytical than most) that their labor was not being properly compensated, feeding into "looking out for number one" and "I'm gonna get mine" sentiments. Importantly, these were not just individual views but an overall vibe shift across the locker room. Recall that when McCaffrey bailed on the bowl game his teammates actually supported him. It was the most natural thing in the world for them to view his economic decision as a reasonable career decision. It's not about team goals, they all understand this is transactional and support one another in that.

* Tying those points together a bit, Shaw seemed to actively encourage the transactional aspects. Coming to Stanford was about the 40 year decision, not what you build with your brothers. You can get a master's at Indiana rather than shore up Stanford's DL? Good for you!

* For these reasons and because of the ease of graduate transferring, norms shifted to make getting a masters degree much more normal for Stanford football players. Since it's difficult to get into Stanford grad programs, that created a push factor away from the team for players to seek the now normal grad degree elsewhere, rather than majoring in football for a super senior sole quarter of a fifth year like normal football players at Stanford and across the country have done since time immemorial.

* As players started accumulating units to graduate earlier and quicker in reaction to these trends, they were in a position to graduate earlier. Out of understandable pride, they applied to graduate when able, creating a fait accompli on needing to go elsewhere if they couldn't get into grad school at Stanford. That essentially pushed them out the door by default, given the trends/zeitgeist/incentives that prevail. Whereas players since time immemorial spread out units across their time at Stanford to make the workload more manageable, knowing an extra quarter existed in the fifth year, now players load up on units throughout their career to graduate earlier and give themselves more options. [This also presumably has serious effects on the football focus/energy/dedication/etc. of the team as it's a lot harder to juggle 20 units than 15 or whatever it is. As a wise man said on TOS, "the thought that guys that used to hit the weight room hard in the offseason to get better are now hitting the library hard to get out is sobering."]

* As Shaw surveyed the changing landscape both at Stanford and nationally (as well as with rules changes related to redshirts, transfers, the COVID year, etc.), he confronted a confounding "roster management" situation, as he frequently reminded us. It's so hard to know how many scholarship spots you have in this environment. To make this more manageable, he leaned into the shifting norms above and encouraged players to go to the NFL when they could, to get masters degrees elsewhere when they could. Win-win, his high-minded, deontological, football loser mentality thought.

I actually think I can think of more reasons but will stop there. Major change in how we operate and truly devastating to systematically deprive yourself of the best football years of your players.

Tony Lima, I did read your post. I just think your mentality is reflective of Shaw's, which got us in this place. Straight-up loser from a football perspective. Not saying it's not high-minded, but it's not how Ralston, Walsh, Harbaugh or coaches across America built their teams. These guys are here to play football. Sorry, they just are. Only playing football until you graduate is not what college football is.

Shaw is now gone.   New HC will have to figure out how to navigate with the New World Order of College football and Stanford admin/admissions.  Won’t be easy.

Reading between the lines of your “discussion “, it seems that Shaw actually cared about his players. As human beings. And believed in the quaint but anachronistic notion of “student-athlete.” Foolish, perhaps. But somewhat admirable. (For all but a few, btw, that Masters at Indiana is considerably more more valuable than a fifth year of football.)

Shaw’s legacy is simple - he took the program to heights none of us had seen or ( if honest with ourselves) believed possible. Then horrifically crashed and burned. He wears both. Credit for the former. Blame for the latter.

In any event, time to move on.

[Jamesy]

Metcalf will graduate so only Katona and Harris are non grad transfers. Myles Hinton and nic toomer now also in portal. Not sure if they are graduating or not. https://twitter.com/on3sports/status/159...Dfhjj6czNg

[Jamesy]

Metcalf will graduate so only Katona and Harris are non grad transfers. Myles Hinton and nic toomer now also in portal. Not sure if they are graduating or not. https://twitter.com/on3sports/status/159...Dfhjj6czNg

[BostonCard]

* As Shaw surveyed the changing landscape both at Stanford and nationally (as well as with rules changes related to redshirts, transfers, the COVID year, etc.), he confronted a confounding "roster management" situation, as he frequently reminded us. It's so hard to know how many scholarship spots you have in this environment. To make this more manageable, he leaned into the shifting norms above and encouraged players to go to the NFL when they could, to get masters degrees elsewhere when they could. Win-win, his high-minded, deontological, football loser mentality thought.

This doesn't make sense.  Roster management is a lot easier when you can pick amongst a plethora of seniors who have eligibility left and you can decide after signing day who to offer a fifth year based on the number of remaining scholarships and positional need.  The current system increases roster uncertainty, because you don't know who will be available for a fifth year until after the early signing period, so there is the possibility both of having to turn away potential contributors or (more likely) having a player you may have counted on enter the portal or decide to move on.

BC

[BostonCard]

* As Shaw surveyed the changing landscape both at Stanford and nationally (as well as with rules changes related to redshirts, transfers, the COVID year, etc.), he confronted a confounding "roster management" situation, as he frequently reminded us. It's so hard to know how many scholarship spots you have in this environment. To make this more manageable, he leaned into the shifting norms above and encouraged players to go to the NFL when they could, to get masters degrees elsewhere when they could. Win-win, his high-minded, deontological, football loser mentality thought.

This doesn't make sense.  Roster management is a lot easier when you can pick amongst a plethora of seniors who have eligibility left and you can decide after signing day who to offer a fifth year based on the number of remaining scholarships and positional need.  The current system increases roster uncertainty, because you don't know who will be available for a fifth year until after the early signing period, so there is the possibility both of having to turn away potential contributors or (more likely) having a player you may have counted on enter the portal or decide to move on.

BC

[TonyLima]

Fifth year seniors have become an oddity at Stanford but they happen elsewhere. In the COVID era sixth and seventh year players are pretty common.

What's changed is manifold. A few of those things:

* Stanford football players now enroll in summer school. If you take AP credits plus early summer school enrollment plus summer schools in subsequent years plus load up on classes it's amazing how quickly you can graduate. If anybody among David Bailey, Sam Roush, or Mudia Reuben - who all enrolled not one, not two, but three academic quarters early (essentially an academic year) - stay at Stanford long enough they might set the record for quickest to graduation in school history.

* Shaw fetishized the 40 year decision, value of the Stanford degree, ability to leverage football into not only undergrad degrees but grad degrees as well, and so forth to such an extreme extent, not to mention his strong predisposition to Stanford Men and self-selectors generally, that the composition of the roster over time became heavily tilted to the types who would load up on classes (and thus focus on football less....sorry), bolt from their brothers to get additional professional credentials, and so forth.

* The pre-NIL period/changing of the zeitgeist in college football exacerbated the sense among Stanford football players (more cerebral/analytical than most) that their labor was not being properly compensated, feeding into "looking out for number one" and "I'm gonna get mine" sentiments. Importantly, these were not just individual views but an overall vibe shift across the locker room. Recall that when McCaffrey bailed on the bowl game his teammates actually supported him. It was the most natural thing in the world for them to view his economic decision as a reasonable career decision. It's not about team goals, they all understand this is transactional and support one another in that.

* Tying those points together a bit, Shaw seemed to actively encourage the transactional aspects. Coming to Stanford was about the 40 year decision, not what you build with your brothers. You can get a master's at Indiana rather than shore up Stanford's DL? Good for you!

* For these reasons and because of the ease of graduate transferring, norms shifted to make getting a masters degree much more normal for Stanford football players. Since it's difficult to get into Stanford grad programs, that created a push factor away from the team for players to seek the now normal grad degree elsewhere, rather than majoring in football for a super senior sole quarter of a fifth year like normal football players at Stanford and across the country have done since time immemorial.

* As players started accumulating units to graduate earlier and quicker in reaction to these trends, they were in a position to graduate earlier. Out of understandable pride, they applied to graduate when able, creating a fait accompli on needing to go elsewhere if they couldn't get into grad school at Stanford. That essentially pushed them out the door by default, given the trends/zeitgeist/incentives that prevail. Whereas players since time immemorial spread out units across their time at Stanford to make the workload more manageable, knowing an extra quarter existed in the fifth year, now players load up on units throughout their career to graduate earlier and give themselves more options. [This also presumably has serious effects on the football focus/energy/dedication/etc. of the team as it's a lot harder to juggle 20 units than 15 or whatever it is. As a wise man said on TOS, "the thought that guys that used to hit the weight room hard in the offseason to get better are now hitting the library hard to get out is sobering."]

* As Shaw surveyed the changing landscape both at Stanford and nationally (as well as with rules changes related to redshirts, transfers, the COVID year, etc.), he confronted a confounding "roster management" situation, as he frequently reminded us. It's so hard to know how many scholarship spots you have in this environment. To make this more manageable, he leaned into the shifting norms above and encouraged players to go to the NFL when they could, to get masters degrees elsewhere when they could. Win-win, his high-minded, deontological, football loser mentality thought.

I actually think I can think of more reasons but will stop there. Major change in how we operate and truly devastating to systematically deprive yourself of the best football years of your players.

Tony Lima, I did read your post. I just think your mentality is reflective of Shaw's, which got us in this place. Straight-up loser from a football perspective. Not saying it's not high-minded, but it's not how Ralston, Walsh, Harbaugh or coaches across America built their teams. These guys are here to play football. Sorry, they just are. Only playing football until you graduate is not what college football is.

My apologies for not writing more clearly. When a player gets a bachelor’s degree, if they want to continue playing they have to be in grad school. That means they must be admitted. Stanford students are, by definition, academically gifted. But some will still not be adnitted to the Stanford program they want. If they want a degree in that field and they also want to continue playing, Stanford is out. And they enter the transfer portal. FYI I spent a few years in the econ PhD program about a century ago. I have stories …

I’ll just add that academics still matter to these kids. They want a grad degree. They won’t take a fifth year senior deal.

[TonyLima]

Fifth year seniors have become an oddity at Stanford but they happen elsewhere. In the COVID era sixth and seventh year players are pretty common.

What's changed is manifold. A few of those things:

* Stanford football players now enroll in summer school. If you take AP credits plus early summer school enrollment plus summer schools in subsequent years plus load up on classes it's amazing how quickly you can graduate. If anybody among David Bailey, Sam Roush, or Mudia Reuben - who all enrolled not one, not two, but three academic quarters early (essentially an academic year) - stay at Stanford long enough they might set the record for quickest to graduation in school history.

* Shaw fetishized the 40 year decision, value of the Stanford degree, ability to leverage football into not only undergrad degrees but grad degrees as well, and so forth to such an extreme extent, not to mention his strong predisposition to Stanford Men and self-selectors generally, that the composition of the roster over time became heavily tilted to the types who would load up on classes (and thus focus on football less....sorry), bolt from their brothers to get additional professional credentials, and so forth.

* The pre-NIL period/changing of the zeitgeist in college football exacerbated the sense among Stanford football players (more cerebral/analytical than most) that their labor was not being properly compensated, feeding into "looking out for number one" and "I'm gonna get mine" sentiments. Importantly, these were not just individual views but an overall vibe shift across the locker room. Recall that when McCaffrey bailed on the bowl game his teammates actually supported him. It was the most natural thing in the world for them to view his economic decision as a reasonable career decision. It's not about team goals, they all understand this is transactional and support one another in that.

* Tying those points together a bit, Shaw seemed to actively encourage the transactional aspects. Coming to Stanford was about the 40 year decision, not what you build with your brothers. You can get a master's at Indiana rather than shore up Stanford's DL? Good for you!

* For these reasons and because of the ease of graduate transferring, norms shifted to make getting a masters degree much more normal for Stanford football players. Since it's difficult to get into Stanford grad programs, that created a push factor away from the team for players to seek the now normal grad degree elsewhere, rather than majoring in football for a super senior sole quarter of a fifth year like normal football players at Stanford and across the country have done since time immemorial.

* As players started accumulating units to graduate earlier and quicker in reaction to these trends, they were in a position to graduate earlier. Out of understandable pride, they applied to graduate when able, creating a fait accompli on needing to go elsewhere if they couldn't get into grad school at Stanford. That essentially pushed them out the door by default, given the trends/zeitgeist/incentives that prevail. Whereas players since time immemorial spread out units across their time at Stanford to make the workload more manageable, knowing an extra quarter existed in the fifth year, now players load up on units throughout their career to graduate earlier and give themselves more options. [This also presumably has serious effects on the football focus/energy/dedication/etc. of the team as it's a lot harder to juggle 20 units than 15 or whatever it is. As a wise man said on TOS, "the thought that guys that used to hit the weight room hard in the offseason to get better are now hitting the library hard to get out is sobering."]

* As Shaw surveyed the changing landscape both at Stanford and nationally (as well as with rules changes related to redshirts, transfers, the COVID year, etc.), he confronted a confounding "roster management" situation, as he frequently reminded us. It's so hard to know how many scholarship spots you have in this environment. To make this more manageable, he leaned into the shifting norms above and encouraged players to go to the NFL when they could, to get masters degrees elsewhere when they could. Win-win, his high-minded, deontological, football loser mentality thought.

I actually think I can think of more reasons but will stop there. Major change in how we operate and truly devastating to systematically deprive yourself of the best football years of your players.

Tony Lima, I did read your post. I just think your mentality is reflective of Shaw's, which got us in this place. Straight-up loser from a football perspective. Not saying it's not high-minded, but it's not how Ralston, Walsh, Harbaugh or coaches across America built their teams. These guys are here to play football. Sorry, they just are. Only playing football until you graduate is not what college football is.

My apologies for not writing more clearly. When a player gets a bachelor’s degree, if they want to continue playing they have to be in grad school. That means they must be admitted. Stanford students are, by definition, academically gifted. But some will still not be adnitted to the Stanford program they want. If they want a degree in that field and they also want to continue playing, Stanford is out. And they enter the transfer portal. FYI I spent a few years in the econ PhD program about a century ago. I have stories …

I’ll just add that academics still matter to these kids. They want a grad degree. They won’t take a fifth year senior deal.

[Goose]

* Stanford football players now enroll in summer school. If you take AP credits plus early summer school enrollment plus summer schools in subsequent years plus load up on classes it's amazing how quickly you can graduate. If anybody among David Bailey, Sam Roush, or Mudia Reuben - who all enrolled not one, not two, but three academic quarters early (essentially an academic year) - stay at Stanford long enough they might set the record for quickest to graduation in school history.

Totally agree. Don't forget that lots of these players got AP credits that they can get them Stanford credits. This is now much more common than it was in the past. 10 units is 10 units. Also, with the grade inflation that exists at Stanford the minimum standard in many classes is pretty low. That helps too.

* Shaw fetishized the 40 year decision, value of the Stanford degree, ability to leverage football into not only undergrad degrees but grad degrees as well, and so forth to such an extreme extent, not to mention his strong predisposition to Stanford Men and self-selectors generally, that the composition of the roster over time became heavily tilted to the types who would load up on classes (and thus focus on football less....sorry), bolt from their brothers to get additional professional credentials, and so forth.

IMO Shaw used the 40 year decision to attract players to Stanford. He didn't do this because he was trying to convert their thinking to match his, but rather to take advantage of what their thinking already was. It was an advantage Stanford had and he used it, just like every other coach has. What is different today is the players have options they can act on sooner, not that somehow Shaw influenced their thinking. You are absolutely correct that this dilutes the players level of commitment to football. The fact the NCAA now closely regulates the hours you can make a guy work at football prevents the coach from mandating things that often in the past he could. Given that, the players chose how many extra miles they will go. Often it is not enough.

* The pre-NIL period/changing of the zeitgeist in college football exacerbated the sense among Stanford football players (more cerebral/analytical than most) that their labor was not being properly compensated, feeding into "looking out for number one" and "I'm gonna get mine" sentiments. Importantly, these were not just individual views but an overall vibe shift across the locker room. Recall that when McCaffrey bailed on the bowl game his teammates actually supported him. It was the most natural thing in the world for them to view his economic decision as a reasonable career decision. It's not about team goals, they all understand this is transactional and support one another in that.

True, and it is not just at Stanford. Other players have bailed on the bowl games. It is becoming more common.

* Tying those points together a bit, Shaw seemed to actively encourage the transactional aspects. Coming to Stanford was about the 40 year decision, not what you build with your brothers. You can get a master's at Indiana rather than shore up Stanford's DL? Good for you!

I think you hoping that the problem was Shaw's "encouragement", not the fact that times have changed. Shaw could have gotten all irate and grumpy about it, but it was going to happen anyway. He felt it was better to try and manage it rather than look like an idiot standing in the way of the inevitable. He is, IMHO, right.

* For these reasons and because of the ease of graduate transferring, norms shifted to make getting a masters degree much more normal for Stanford football players. Since it's difficult to get into Stanford grad programs, that created a push factor away from the team for players to seek the now normal grad degree elsewhere, rather than majoring in football for a super senior sole quarter of a fifth year like normal football players at Stanford and across the country have done since time immemorial.

You seem to forget that back in "time immemorial" the players had no other choice. In fact, even back in the day some players did not take their 5th year even though the coach wanted them to. The guys who did take the 5th year were usually guys who had some hope of a pro contract. Obviously, they were "better than average" or the coach wouldn't want them back. They had no way to leverage their last year into a masters degree if they couldn't get into the one at Stanford, so that choice simply wasn't available.

* As players started accumulating units to graduate earlier and quicker in reaction to these trends, they were in a position to graduate earlier. Out of understandable pride, they applied to graduate when able, creating a fait accompli on needing to go elsewhere if they couldn't get into grad school at Stanford. That essentially pushed them out the door by default, given the trends/zeitgeist/incentives that prevail. Whereas players since time immemorial spread out units across their time at Stanford to make the workload more manageable, knowing an extra quarter existed in the fifth year, now players load up on units throughout their career to graduate earlier and give themselves more options. [This also presumably has serious effects on the football focus/energy/dedication/etc. of the team as it's a lot harder to juggle 20 units than 15 or whatever it is. As a wise man said on TOS, "the thought that guys that used to hit the weight room hard in the offseason to get better are now hitting the library hard to get out is sobering."]

Yes, it is amazing how quickly young people adapt to their environment to take advantage of new opportunities. The idea this isn't going to happen is simply silly. Actually, I am not certain that it requires them to take more units per quarter or "go to the library". These days they don't go to the library anyway. The UGLY is gone. Football players back in "time immemorial" didn't go to summer school every year and pick up units. They worked construction to get stronger. They didn't start with a pile of AP units on day 1. They also did have to worry about actually failing a class because they didn't turn in all the homework. They also had to take Western Civ :-). However, the coach today can't make them run a play until they get it right because after their hours are up, that is the end of practice.

<snip to fit>
Straight-up loser from a football perspective. Not saying it's not high-minded, but it's not how Ralston, Walsh, Harbaugh or coaches across America built their teams. These guys are here to play football. Sorry, they just are. Only playing football until you graduate is not what college football is.

Again, those coaches (Harbaugh today excepted) had players who had no options. They also could work them basically however many hours they wanted. Totally different deal. Today, these guys are here to play football until they are not, and that decision is theirs. In fact, that is what college football is today. Harbaugh has had lots of guys in the portal at Michigan. He is also going to have lots of trouble keeping guys. His current QB will be draft eligible after next year. Do you think he will stay around? If they win the championship this year, he would leave this year if he could.

[Goose]

* Stanford football players now enroll in summer school. If you take AP credits plus early summer school enrollment plus summer schools in subsequent years plus load up on classes it's amazing how quickly you can graduate. If anybody among David Bailey, Sam Roush, or Mudia Reuben - who all enrolled not one, not two, but three academic quarters early (essentially an academic year) - stay at Stanford long enough they might set the record for quickest to graduation in school history.

Totally agree. Don't forget that lots of these players got AP credits that they can get them Stanford credits. This is now much more common than it was in the past. 10 units is 10 units. Also, with the grade inflation that exists at Stanford the minimum standard in many classes is pretty low. That helps too.

* Shaw fetishized the 40 year decision, value of the Stanford degree, ability to leverage football into not only undergrad degrees but grad degrees as well, and so forth to such an extreme extent, not to mention his strong predisposition to Stanford Men and self-selectors generally, that the composition of the roster over time became heavily tilted to the types who would load up on classes (and thus focus on football less....sorry), bolt from their brothers to get additional professional credentials, and so forth.

IMO Shaw used the 40 year decision to attract players to Stanford. He didn't do this because he was trying to convert their thinking to match his, but rather to take advantage of what their thinking already was. It was an advantage Stanford had and he used it, just like every other coach has. What is different today is the players have options they can act on sooner, not that somehow Shaw influenced their thinking. You are absolutely correct that this dilutes the players level of commitment to football. The fact the NCAA now closely regulates the hours you can make a guy work at football prevents the coach from mandating things that often in the past he could. Given that, the players chose how many extra miles they will go. Often it is not enough.

* The pre-NIL period/changing of the zeitgeist in college football exacerbated the sense among Stanford football players (more cerebral/analytical than most) that their labor was not being properly compensated, feeding into "looking out for number one" and "I'm gonna get mine" sentiments. Importantly, these were not just individual views but an overall vibe shift across the locker room. Recall that when McCaffrey bailed on the bowl game his teammates actually supported him. It was the most natural thing in the world for them to view his economic decision as a reasonable career decision. It's not about team goals, they all understand this is transactional and support one another in that.

True, and it is not just at Stanford. Other players have bailed on the bowl games. It is becoming more common.

* Tying those points together a bit, Shaw seemed to actively encourage the transactional aspects. Coming to Stanford was about the 40 year decision, not what you build with your brothers. You can get a master's at Indiana rather than shore up Stanford's DL? Good for you!

I think you hoping that the problem was Shaw's "encouragement", not the fact that times have changed. Shaw could have gotten all irate and grumpy about it, but it was going to happen anyway. He felt it was better to try and manage it rather than look like an idiot standing in the way of the inevitable. He is, IMHO, right.

* For these reasons and because of the ease of graduate transferring, norms shifted to make getting a masters degree much more normal for Stanford football players. Since it's difficult to get into Stanford grad programs, that created a push factor away from the team for players to seek the now normal grad degree elsewhere, rather than majoring in football for a super senior sole quarter of a fifth year like normal football players at Stanford and across the country have done since time immemorial.

You seem to forget that back in "time immemorial" the players had no other choice. In fact, even back in the day some players did not take their 5th year even though the coach wanted them to. The guys who did take the 5th year were usually guys who had some hope of a pro contract. Obviously, they were "better than average" or the coach wouldn't want them back. They had no way to leverage their last year into a masters degree if they couldn't get into the one at Stanford, so that choice simply wasn't available.

* As players started accumulating units to graduate earlier and quicker in reaction to these trends, they were in a position to graduate earlier. Out of understandable pride, they applied to graduate when able, creating a fait accompli on needing to go elsewhere if they couldn't get into grad school at Stanford. That essentially pushed them out the door by default, given the trends/zeitgeist/incentives that prevail. Whereas players since time immemorial spread out units across their time at Stanford to make the workload more manageable, knowing an extra quarter existed in the fifth year, now players load up on units throughout their career to graduate earlier and give themselves more options. [This also presumably has serious effects on the football focus/energy/dedication/etc. of the team as it's a lot harder to juggle 20 units than 15 or whatever it is. As a wise man said on TOS, "the thought that guys that used to hit the weight room hard in the offseason to get better are now hitting the library hard to get out is sobering."]

Yes, it is amazing how quickly young people adapt to their environment to take advantage of new opportunities. The idea this isn't going to happen is simply silly. Actually, I am not certain that it requires them to take more units per quarter or "go to the library". These days they don't go to the library anyway. The UGLY is gone. Football players back in "time immemorial" didn't go to summer school every year and pick up units. They worked construction to get stronger. They didn't start with a pile of AP units on day 1. They also did have to worry about actually failing a class because they didn't turn in all the homework. They also had to take Western Civ :-). However, the coach today can't make them run a play until they get it right because after their hours are up, that is the end of practice.

<snip to fit>
Straight-up loser from a football perspective. Not saying it's not high-minded, but it's not how Ralston, Walsh, Harbaugh or coaches across America built their teams. These guys are here to play football. Sorry, they just are. Only playing football until you graduate is not what college football is.

Again, those coaches (Harbaugh today excepted) had players who had no options. They also could work them basically however many hours they wanted. Totally different deal. Today, these guys are here to play football until they are not, and that decision is theirs. In fact, that is what college football is today. Harbaugh has had lots of guys in the portal at Michigan. He is also going to have lots of trouble keeping guys. His current QB will be draft eligible after next year. Do you think he will stay around? If they win the championship this year, he would leave this year if he could.

[BostonCard]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stanfordrivals/status/1598900084015796224?s=46&t=9pTyBCpYIDNHWywTIc_j_w[/tweet]

BC

---

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stanfordrivals/status/1598898695235579904?s=46&t=9pTyBCpYIDNHWywTIc_j_w[/tweet]

Last one out, please turn out the lights.

BC

[BostonCard]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stanfordrivals/status/1598900084015796224?s=46&t=9pTyBCpYIDNHWywTIc_j_w[/tweet]

BC

---

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stanfordrivals/status/1598898695235579904?s=46&t=9pTyBCpYIDNHWywTIc_j_w[/tweet]

Last one out, please turn out the lights.

BC

[Maple Leaf]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stanfordrivals/status/1598900084015796224?s=46&t=9pTyBCpYIDNHWywTIc_j_w[/tweet]

BC

---

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stanfordrivals/status/1598898695235579904?s=46&t=9pTyBCpYIDNHWywTIc_j_w[/tweet]

Last one out, please turn out the lights.

BC

Are the lights still on?  Thought they went out some years ago.

[Maple Leaf]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stanfordrivals/status/1598900084015796224?s=46&t=9pTyBCpYIDNHWywTIc_j_w[/tweet]

BC

---

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stanfordrivals/status/1598898695235579904?s=46&t=9pTyBCpYIDNHWywTIc_j_w[/tweet]

Last one out, please turn out the lights.

BC

Are the lights still on?  Thought they went out some years ago.

[Austroturf]

Thanks for the insights, Matt, Goose and BC.  So on the whole, players that planned to complete their entire 5 years of eligibility simply delayed graduation in their bachelor's programs.  Got it.  

If I take Michael Rector as a classic 5th-year player, he came back after a very good 2015 to increase his draft stock in 2016 (which didn't really work out for him).  He got an undrafted free agent deal with the Lions, but was waived in the preseason of 2017.  He majored in Human Biology, so I have to imagine he simply delayed graduation to remain enrolled during the fall quarter of 2016.  Was that the way the vast majority of 5th-year players did it?  

Now let's take a current example.  Levani Damuni has been one of the better players this year on defense.  He redshirted as a freshman in 2019, so he has two more years of eligibility.  He would normally be a classic 5th-year player with his eye on the NFL draft.  Clearly, he decided that Stanford is not a place to position himself for a high draft pick.  He is also an LDS player, so is older than the standard 5th-year player, hence his sense of urgency.  But bottom-line: he probably would have done a Michael Rector if he thought the program was worth his time.  Clearly it isn't.  And that is the problem!

[Austroturf]

Thanks for the insights, Matt, Goose and BC.  So on the whole, players that planned to complete their entire 5 years of eligibility simply delayed graduation in their bachelor's programs.  Got it.  

If I take Michael Rector as a classic 5th-year player, he came back after a very good 2015 to increase his draft stock in 2016 (which didn't really work out for him).  He got an undrafted free agent deal with the Lions, but was waived in the preseason of 2017.  He majored in Human Biology, so I have to imagine he simply delayed graduation to remain enrolled during the fall quarter of 2016.  Was that the way the vast majority of 5th-year players did it?  

Now let's take a current example.  Levani Damuni has been one of the better players this year on defense.  He redshirted as a freshman in 2019, so he has two more years of eligibility.  He would normally be a classic 5th-year player with his eye on the NFL draft.  Clearly, he decided that Stanford is not a place to position himself for a high draft pick.  He is also an LDS player, so is older than the standard 5th-year player, hence his sense of urgency.  But bottom-line: he probably would have done a Michael Rector if he thought the program was worth his time.  Clearly it isn't.  And that is the problem!

[PersonalLegend]

Matt has it nailed. 

Shaw has clearly created a selfish culture that exceeds other programs. Why?  Because guys are now jamming themselves to graduate early (thereby not putting a Stanford degree at risk) and then getting grad school paid for elsewhere.  It’s a shame. 

Why would you want to leave Stanford quickly?  Seriously. Why?  Who is giving our players this advice?  Who is excited that they would take extra courses at the expense of being better on the field?  Their parents?  I sure hope not. 

Something tells me this isn’t the full story. Something tells me the program is rotten from the inside. Players are going to transfer, it’s a given these days, but we seem to be losing guys who we want to stay.

[PersonalLegend]

Matt has it nailed. 

Shaw has clearly created a selfish culture that exceeds other programs. Why?  Because guys are now jamming themselves to graduate early (thereby not putting a Stanford degree at risk) and then getting grad school paid for elsewhere.  It’s a shame. 

Why would you want to leave Stanford quickly?  Seriously. Why?  Who is giving our players this advice?  Who is excited that they would take extra courses at the expense of being better on the field?  Their parents?  I sure hope not. 

Something tells me this isn’t the full story. Something tells me the program is rotten from the inside. Players are going to transfer, it’s a given these days, but we seem to be losing guys who we want to stay.

[Goose]

If I take Michael Rector as a classic 5th-year player, he came back after a very good 2015 to increase his draft stock in 2016 (which didn't really work out for him).  He got an undrafted free agent deal with the Lions, but was waived in the preseason of 2017.  He majored in Human Biology, so I have to imagine he simply delayed graduation to remain enrolled during the fall quarter of 2016.  Was that the way the vast majority of 5th-year players did it?

My understanding is that it was prudent to avoid taking at least one required class in your major to ensure you had an iron-clad reason you needed to come back for a quarter. If you did that, it was pretty much assured there would be no issues with Stanford or the NCAA. Otherwise, yes, that was what guys did.

Now let's take a current example.  Levani Damuni has been one of the better players this year on defense.  He redshirted as a freshman in 2019, so he has two more years of eligibility.  He would normally be a classic 5th-year player with his eye on the NFL draft.  Clearly, he decided that Stanford is not a place to position himself for a high draft pick.  He is also an LDS player, so is older than the standard 5th-year player, hence his sense of urgency.  But bottom-line: he probably would have done a Michael Rector if he thought the program was worth his time.  Clearly it isn't.  And that is the problem!

I would have to amend your text a bit to agree. First, what was "normal" in 2015 no longer is. While you could grad transfer back then, it wasn't common. You might be viewed with a jaundiced eye by many programs. It is common now. Second, the "worth his time" aspect of the program is an interesting issue. It is true that playing on a high-profile successful team beats the heck out of playing on a 3-9 team from a visibility point of view. OTOH, it is quite possible to take a grad transfer, go to another school, and sit on the bench. This can happen even if you are pretty good. That is a real risk as some of our transfers (both grad and otherwise) have discovered. It is also possible that (back when we were good) you would be surpassed by a undergraduate who was already on the team or would be arriving as a recruit (through the portal or a freshman). The coach (if/when he exists) may still want you as "insurance" but not be willing to guarantee how much you will play.

We don't have a coach right now, and coaches in a rebuild often want to play their younger players because that will help them in the future. The new guy may not want you at all or may not use you as much as you need to improve your draft stock. All in all, grad transferring this year is probably LESS risky than staying around. At Stanford, you really don't know what you are going to get. As a transfer, you can look over lots of options and chose the best one. Oh, and in addition you can get a paid-for masters in case the NFL thing doesn't work out.

There will be in the future 5th year players at Stanford, but many fewer of them than in the past. If Stanford returns to "prominence" there will be more than if we do not, because the visibility will be better to the NFL scouts at a better team. You will be on TV more. However, the grad transfer will also be much more common than in the past because it provides the athlete an opportunity to maximize his opportunities. He may be better off elsewhere for "fit" reasons.

[Goose]

If I take Michael Rector as a classic 5th-year player, he came back after a very good 2015 to increase his draft stock in 2016 (which didn't really work out for him).  He got an undrafted free agent deal with the Lions, but was waived in the preseason of 2017.  He majored in Human Biology, so I have to imagine he simply delayed graduation to remain enrolled during the fall quarter of 2016.  Was that the way the vast majority of 5th-year players did it?

My understanding is that it was prudent to avoid taking at least one required class in your major to ensure you had an iron-clad reason you needed to come back for a quarter. If you did that, it was pretty much assured there would be no issues with Stanford or the NCAA. Otherwise, yes, that was what guys did.

Now let's take a current example.  Levani Damuni has been one of the better players this year on defense.  He redshirted as a freshman in 2019, so he has two more years of eligibility.  He would normally be a classic 5th-year player with his eye on the NFL draft.  Clearly, he decided that Stanford is not a place to position himself for a high draft pick.  He is also an LDS player, so is older than the standard 5th-year player, hence his sense of urgency.  But bottom-line: he probably would have done a Michael Rector if he thought the program was worth his time.  Clearly it isn't.  And that is the problem!

I would have to amend your text a bit to agree. First, what was "normal" in 2015 no longer is. While you could grad transfer back then, it wasn't common. You might be viewed with a jaundiced eye by many programs. It is common now. Second, the "worth his time" aspect of the program is an interesting issue. It is true that playing on a high-profile successful team beats the heck out of playing on a 3-9 team from a visibility point of view. OTOH, it is quite possible to take a grad transfer, go to another school, and sit on the bench. This can happen even if you are pretty good. That is a real risk as some of our transfers (both grad and otherwise) have discovered. It is also possible that (back when we were good) you would be surpassed by a undergraduate who was already on the team or would be arriving as a recruit (through the portal or a freshman). The coach (if/when he exists) may still want you as "insurance" but not be willing to guarantee how much you will play.

We don't have a coach right now, and coaches in a rebuild often want to play their younger players because that will help them in the future. The new guy may not want you at all or may not use you as much as you need to improve your draft stock. All in all, grad transferring this year is probably LESS risky than staying around. At Stanford, you really don't know what you are going to get. As a transfer, you can look over lots of options and chose the best one. Oh, and in addition you can get a paid-for masters in case the NFL thing doesn't work out.

There will be in the future 5th year players at Stanford, but many fewer of them than in the past. If Stanford returns to "prominence" there will be more than if we do not, because the visibility will be better to the NFL scouts at a better team. You will be on TV more. However, the grad transfer will also be much more common than in the past because it provides the athlete an opportunity to maximize his opportunities. He may be better off elsewhere for "fit" reasons.

[cardcrimson]

Matt has it nailed. 

Shaw has clearly created a selfish culture that exceeds other programs. Why?  Because guys are now jamming themselves to graduate early (thereby not putting a Stanford degree at risk) and then getting grad school paid for elsewhere.  It’s a shame. 

Why would you want to leave Stanford quickly?  Seriously. Why?  Who is giving our players this advice?  Who is excited that they would take extra courses at the expense of being better on the field?  Their parents?  I sure hope not. 

Something tells me this isn’t the full story. Something tells me the program is rotten from the inside. Players are going to transfer, it’s a given these days, but we seem to be losing guys who we want to stay.

In all seriousness, I wonder if the "Stanford Hates Fun" issue has anything to do with the culture of the team. Back in the day, the football players, and the baseball players, and the water polo players all seemed to, shall we say, enjoy life to the fullest. Is that even allowed anymore?

[cardcrimson]

Matt has it nailed. 

Shaw has clearly created a selfish culture that exceeds other programs. Why?  Because guys are now jamming themselves to graduate early (thereby not putting a Stanford degree at risk) and then getting grad school paid for elsewhere.  It’s a shame. 

Why would you want to leave Stanford quickly?  Seriously. Why?  Who is giving our players this advice?  Who is excited that they would take extra courses at the expense of being better on the field?  Their parents?  I sure hope not. 

Something tells me this isn’t the full story. Something tells me the program is rotten from the inside. Players are going to transfer, it’s a given these days, but we seem to be losing guys who we want to stay.

In all seriousness, I wonder if the "Stanford Hates Fun" issue has anything to do with the culture of the team. Back in the day, the football players, and the baseball players, and the water polo players all seemed to, shall we say, enjoy life to the fullest. Is that even allowed anymore?

[TonyLima]

Matt has it nailed. 

Shaw has clearly created a selfish culture that exceeds other programs. Why?  Because guys are now jamming themselves to graduate early (thereby not putting a Stanford degree at risk) and then getting grad school paid for elsewhere.  It’s a shame. 

Why would you want to leave Stanford quickly?  Seriously. Why?  Who is giving our players this advice?  Who is excited that they would take extra courses at the expense of being better on the field?  Their parents?  I sure hope not. 

Something tells me this isn’t the full story. Something tells me the program is rotten from the inside. Players are going to transfer, it’s a given these days, but we seem to be losing guys who we want to stay.

In all seriousness, I wonder if the "Stanford Hates Fun" issue has anything to do with the culture of the team. Back in the day, the football players, and the baseball players, and the water polo players all seemed to, shall we say, enjoy life to the fullest. Is that even allowed anymore?

From various semi-reliable sources, Coach Esquer has restored fun to the baseball clubhouse.

[TonyLima]

Matt has it nailed. 

Shaw has clearly created a selfish culture that exceeds other programs. Why?  Because guys are now jamming themselves to graduate early (thereby not putting a Stanford degree at risk) and then getting grad school paid for elsewhere.  It’s a shame. 

Why would you want to leave Stanford quickly?  Seriously. Why?  Who is giving our players this advice?  Who is excited that they would take extra courses at the expense of being better on the field?  Their parents?  I sure hope not. 

Something tells me this isn’t the full story. Something tells me the program is rotten from the inside. Players are going to transfer, it’s a given these days, but we seem to be losing guys who we want to stay.

In all seriousness, I wonder if the "Stanford Hates Fun" issue has anything to do with the culture of the team. Back in the day, the football players, and the baseball players, and the water polo players all seemed to, shall we say, enjoy life to the fullest. Is that even allowed anymore?

From various semi-reliable sources, Coach Esquer has restored fun to the baseball clubhouse.

[BostonCard]

Also, the COVID year has messed with everything, including giving some players not one but two extra years.

BC

[BostonCard]

Also, the COVID year has messed with everything, including giving some players not one but two extra years.

BC