[triangle2]

More generally, if an institution doesn't want its coaches to be jerks and damage kids who aren't helping them win, they should make clear that they don't tolerate that behavior from coaches, rather than tolerating it for many years and then firing the coach for what they've done all along.

Well, this is really the issue, isn’t it. We hear so often in these cases how often student-athletes tried to raise concerns and got belittled, cut, threatened, isolated, or gaslit. Happened to me in college with a swim coach. That was a life changing bad experience. And there were no law firm investigations back in the day.

I'm sorry that you went through what you did, it really sucks, and as you stated, life changing no doubt. My sixteen year old is going through a similar life changing situation now. 

I have to disagree with Murky, as it's not about those who aren't helping you win. The best player on my daughter's high school polo team last year (and arguably the best player in the school's history, certainly recent history) opted to not play this year, her senior year. Why? Because the coach has treated her so badly last year. 

Sadly the coach, for no apparent reason, turned her wrath towards my kid this year. The abuse this year has been brutal. Ironically, last year the coach called my daughter "the backbone of the defense" that won the first championship in school history. So no, it's not about those who aren't helping you win. There is a much deeper issue with some coaches.

Likewise, sorry to hear about how your daughter was treated.  

I'm forming conjecture without personal experience in highly competitive sports.

And to be clear, in my opinion, how important a player is to a team's success shouldn't factor into the question of whether it is okay for the coach to abuse him or her.  I just assumed in my post that a coach with competitive success would value players perceived as critical to winning.

Thanks. It's been a really, really tough road. My daughter quotes "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". And she's right, my daughter is incredibly tough right now. That said, it was incredibly precarious just a few months ago, and I still don't feel the worst is behind us.

I don’t know if this is helpful for you, but when I experienced institutional gaslighting, I really valued the support of adults who were able to say directly to me that my experience was genuine and genuinely bad. I don’t know if I would have survived otherwise. Thinking good thoughts for your daughter and your family.

[triangle2]

More generally, if an institution doesn't want its coaches to be jerks and damage kids who aren't helping them win, they should make clear that they don't tolerate that behavior from coaches, rather than tolerating it for many years and then firing the coach for what they've done all along.

Well, this is really the issue, isn’t it. We hear so often in these cases how often student-athletes tried to raise concerns and got belittled, cut, threatened, isolated, or gaslit. Happened to me in college with a swim coach. That was a life changing bad experience. And there were no law firm investigations back in the day.

I'm sorry that you went through what you did, it really sucks, and as you stated, life changing no doubt. My sixteen year old is going through a similar life changing situation now. 

I have to disagree with Murky, as it's not about those who aren't helping you win. The best player on my daughter's high school polo team last year (and arguably the best player in the school's history, certainly recent history) opted to not play this year, her senior year. Why? Because the coach has treated her so badly last year. 

Sadly the coach, for no apparent reason, turned her wrath towards my kid this year. The abuse this year has been brutal. Ironically, last year the coach called my daughter "the backbone of the defense" that won the first championship in school history. So no, it's not about those who aren't helping you win. There is a much deeper issue with some coaches.

Likewise, sorry to hear about how your daughter was treated.  

I'm forming conjecture without personal experience in highly competitive sports.

And to be clear, in my opinion, how important a player is to a team's success shouldn't factor into the question of whether it is okay for the coach to abuse him or her.  I just assumed in my post that a coach with competitive success would value players perceived as critical to winning.

Thanks. It's been a really, really tough road. My daughter quotes "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". And she's right, my daughter is incredibly tough right now. That said, it was incredibly precarious just a few months ago, and I still don't feel the worst is behind us.

I don’t know if this is helpful for you, but when I experienced institutional gaslighting, I really valued the support of adults who were able to say directly to me that my experience was genuine and genuinely bad. I don’t know if I would have survived otherwise. Thinking good thoughts for your daughter and your family.

[PersonalLegend]

Coaches can often be hardest on their best players because they see their best players not playing their best. 

We live in a weird world where our kids and some of our coaches have lost discernment between pushing for better play and just reacting to personalities.  A lot of my coaches growing up were grade A jerks on the field but there was a big difference between the guy being a jerk because he cared about you and your playing better and the guy being a jerk because he didn’t care about you at all. 

The Cal thing went on way too long. And I say that as a guy who firmly believes that on every D1 team there are enough disgruntled players whose dreams have been dashed to share stories that would get the coach fired in any classic HR regime.

[PersonalLegend]

Coaches can often be hardest on their best players because they see their best players not playing their best. 

We live in a weird world where our kids and some of our coaches have lost discernment between pushing for better play and just reacting to personalities.  A lot of my coaches growing up were grade A jerks on the field but there was a big difference between the guy being a jerk because he cared about you and your playing better and the guy being a jerk because he didn’t care about you at all. 

The Cal thing went on way too long. And I say that as a guy who firmly believes that on every D1 team there are enough disgruntled players whose dreams have been dashed to share stories that would get the coach fired in any classic HR regime.

[murky]

Coaches can often be hardest on their best players because they see their best players not playing their best. 

We live in a weird world where our kids and some of our coaches have lost discernment between pushing for better play and just reacting to personalities.  A lot of my coaches growing up were grade A jerks on the field but there was a big difference between the guy being a jerk because he cared about you and your playing better and the guy being a jerk because he didn’t care about you at all. 

The Cal thing went on way too long. And I say that as a guy who firmly believes that on every D1 team there are enough disgruntled players whose dreams have been dashed to share stories that would get the coach fired in any classic HR regime.

I think you've captured part of what I was trying to say, much more effectively than I did.

[murky]

Coaches can often be hardest on their best players because they see their best players not playing their best. 

We live in a weird world where our kids and some of our coaches have lost discernment between pushing for better play and just reacting to personalities.  A lot of my coaches growing up were grade A jerks on the field but there was a big difference between the guy being a jerk because he cared about you and your playing better and the guy being a jerk because he didn’t care about you at all. 

The Cal thing went on way too long. And I say that as a guy who firmly believes that on every D1 team there are enough disgruntled players whose dreams have been dashed to share stories that would get the coach fired in any classic HR regime.

I think you've captured part of what I was trying to say, much more effectively than I did.

[cardcrimson]

Well, this is really the issue, isn’t it. We hear so often in these cases how often student-athletes tried to raise concerns and got belittled, cut, threatened, isolated, or gaslit. Happened to me in college with a swim coach. That was a life changing bad experience. And there were no law firm investigations back in the day.

I'm sorry that you went through what you did, it really sucks, and as you stated, life changing no doubt. My sixteen year old is going through a similar life changing situation now. 

I have to disagree with Murky, as it's not about those who aren't helping you win. The best player on my daughter's high school polo team last year (and arguably the best player in the school's history, certainly recent history) opted to not play this year, her senior year. Why? Because the coach has treated her so badly last year. 

Sadly the coach, for no apparent reason, turned her wrath towards my kid this year. The abuse this year has been brutal. Ironically, last year the coach called my daughter "the backbone of the defense" that won the first championship in school history. So no, it's not about those who aren't helping you win. There is a much deeper issue with some coaches.

Likewise, sorry to hear about how your daughter was treated.  

I'm forming conjecture without personal experience in highly competitive sports.

And to be clear, in my opinion, how important a player is to a team's success shouldn't factor into the question of whether it is okay for the coach to abuse him or her.  I just assumed in my post that a coach with competitive success would value players perceived as critical to winning.

Thanks. It's been a really, really tough road. My daughter quotes "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". And she's right, my daughter is incredibly tough right now. That said, it was incredibly precarious just a few months ago, and I still don't feel the worst is behind us.

I don’t know if this is helpful for you, but when I experienced institutional gaslighting, I really valued the support of adults who were able to say directly to me that my experience was genuine and genuinely bad. I don’t know if I would have survived otherwise. Thinking good thoughts for your daughter and your family.

Thanks. Her friends and teammates, by and large, have been very supportive. Some of the parents too. Really helped her get through this. The sad thing, is that the kids and the parents are genuinely afraid of the coach. She's very well connected in the sport and with the administration.

[cardcrimson]

Well, this is really the issue, isn’t it. We hear so often in these cases how often student-athletes tried to raise concerns and got belittled, cut, threatened, isolated, or gaslit. Happened to me in college with a swim coach. That was a life changing bad experience. And there were no law firm investigations back in the day.

I'm sorry that you went through what you did, it really sucks, and as you stated, life changing no doubt. My sixteen year old is going through a similar life changing situation now. 

I have to disagree with Murky, as it's not about those who aren't helping you win. The best player on my daughter's high school polo team last year (and arguably the best player in the school's history, certainly recent history) opted to not play this year, her senior year. Why? Because the coach has treated her so badly last year. 

Sadly the coach, for no apparent reason, turned her wrath towards my kid this year. The abuse this year has been brutal. Ironically, last year the coach called my daughter "the backbone of the defense" that won the first championship in school history. So no, it's not about those who aren't helping you win. There is a much deeper issue with some coaches.

Likewise, sorry to hear about how your daughter was treated.  

I'm forming conjecture without personal experience in highly competitive sports.

And to be clear, in my opinion, how important a player is to a team's success shouldn't factor into the question of whether it is okay for the coach to abuse him or her.  I just assumed in my post that a coach with competitive success would value players perceived as critical to winning.

Thanks. It's been a really, really tough road. My daughter quotes "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". And she's right, my daughter is incredibly tough right now. That said, it was incredibly precarious just a few months ago, and I still don't feel the worst is behind us.

I don’t know if this is helpful for you, but when I experienced institutional gaslighting, I really valued the support of adults who were able to say directly to me that my experience was genuine and genuinely bad. I don’t know if I would have survived otherwise. Thinking good thoughts for your daughter and your family.

Thanks. Her friends and teammates, by and large, have been very supportive. Some of the parents too. Really helped her get through this. The sad thing, is that the kids and the parents are genuinely afraid of the coach. She's very well connected in the sport and with the administration.

[jonnyss]

here is the original story.  this is not everyday pushy coaching:

"you're a worthless piece of sh**" (apparently said dozens if not hundreds of times)

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

many more alarming examples.

intriguing that mckeever is threatening to sue the law firm that conducted the investigation, saying that they had no familiarity with gender bias in sports. not a good look as both of the munger, tolles attorneys are women, and one of the 2 was a high-level college athlete. appears that  mckeever is continuing her strategy of trying to get ahead by insulting highly competent women. can you successfully bring suit against an expert if you don't like their report? i thought you had to counter with a report from your own expert. not my profession but seems frivolous and possibly subject to a counter-claim for malicious prosecution.

[jonnyss]

here is the original story.  this is not everyday pushy coaching:

"you're a worthless piece of sh**" (apparently said dozens if not hundreds of times)

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

many more alarming examples.

intriguing that mckeever is threatening to sue the law firm that conducted the investigation, saying that they had no familiarity with gender bias in sports. not a good look as both of the munger, tolles attorneys are women, and one of the 2 was a high-level college athlete. appears that  mckeever is continuing her strategy of trying to get ahead by insulting highly competent women. can you successfully bring suit against an expert if you don't like their report? i thought you had to counter with a report from your own expert. not my profession but seems frivolous and possibly subject to a counter-claim for malicious prosecution.

[BobK]

here is the original story.  this is not everyday pushy coaching:

"you're a worthless piece of sh**" (apparently said dozens if not hundreds of times)

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

many more alarming examples.

intriguing that mckeever is threatening to sue the law firm that conducted the investigation, saying that they had no familiarity with gender bias in sports. not a good look as both of the munger, tolles attorneys are women, and one of the 2 was a high-level college athlete. appears that  mckeever is continuing her strategy of trying to get ahead by insulting highly competent women. can you successfully bring suit against an expert if you don't like their report? i thought you had to counter with a report from your own expert. not my profession but seems frivolous and likely subject to a counter-claim for malicious prosecution.

So disappointing that some here think this is Ok not bad whatever. McKeever’s words and actions are terrible. Thank you for the post Jonnyss.

[BobK]

here is the original story.  this is not everyday pushy coaching:

"you're a worthless piece of sh**" (apparently said dozens if not hundreds of times)

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

many more alarming examples.

intriguing that mckeever is threatening to sue the law firm that conducted the investigation, saying that they had no familiarity with gender bias in sports. not a good look as both of the munger, tolles attorneys are women, and one of the 2 was a high-level college athlete. appears that  mckeever is continuing her strategy of trying to get ahead by insulting highly competent women. can you successfully bring suit against an expert if you don't like their report? i thought you had to counter with a report from your own expert. not my profession but seems frivolous and likely subject to a counter-claim for malicious prosecution.

So disappointing that some here think this is Ok not bad whatever. McKeever’s words and actions are terrible. Thank you for the post Jonnyss.

[cardcrimson]

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

I find this one really perplexing and hard to fathom. Teri's assistant head coach was Kristen Cunnane, who was sexually abused by two teachers (one male, one female) starting in middle school. Kristen won a very large settlement from the Moraga School District and has spoken a lot about the emotional toll it took on her.

[cardcrimson]

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

I find this one really perplexing and hard to fathom. Teri's assistant head coach was Kristen Cunnane, who was sexually abused by two teachers (one male, one female) starting in middle school. Kristen won a very large settlement from the Moraga School District and has spoken a lot about the emotional toll it took on her.

[murky]

here is the original story.  this is not everyday pushy coaching:

"you're a worthless piece of sh**" (apparently said dozens if not hundreds of times)

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

many more alarming examples.

intriguing that mckeever is threatening to sue the law firm that conducted the investigation, saying that they had no familiarity with gender bias in sports. not a good look as both of the munger, tolles attorneys are women, and one of the 2 was a high-level college athlete. appears that  mckeever is continuing her strategy of trying to get ahead by insulting highly competent women. can you successfully bring suit against an expert if you don't like their report? i thought you had to counter with a report from your own expert. not my profession but seems frivolous and likely subject to a counter-claim for malicious prosecution.

So disappointing that some here think this is Ok not bad whatever.  McKeever’s words and actions are terrible.  Thank you for the post Jonnyss.

Who here thinks it OK not bad whatever?

I hadn't seen the "step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" part.   Pretty damning.

[murky]

here is the original story.  this is not everyday pushy coaching:

"you're a worthless piece of sh**" (apparently said dozens if not hundreds of times)

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

many more alarming examples.

intriguing that mckeever is threatening to sue the law firm that conducted the investigation, saying that they had no familiarity with gender bias in sports. not a good look as both of the munger, tolles attorneys are women, and one of the 2 was a high-level college athlete. appears that  mckeever is continuing her strategy of trying to get ahead by insulting highly competent women. can you successfully bring suit against an expert if you don't like their report? i thought you had to counter with a report from your own expert. not my profession but seems frivolous and likely subject to a counter-claim for malicious prosecution.

So disappointing that some here think this is Ok not bad whatever.  McKeever’s words and actions are terrible.  Thank you for the post Jonnyss.

Who here thinks it OK not bad whatever?

I hadn't seen the "step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" part.   Pretty damning.

[Mick]

here is the original story.  this is not everyday pushy coaching:

"you're a worthless piece of sh**" (apparently said dozens if not hundreds of times)

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

many more alarming examples.

intriguing that mckeever is threatening to sue the law firm that conducted the investigation, saying that they had no familiarity with gender bias in sports. not a good look as both of the munger, tolles attorneys are women, and one of the 2 was a high-level college athlete. appears that  mckeever is continuing her strategy of trying to get ahead by insulting highly competent women. can you successfully bring suit against an expert if you don't like their report? i thought you had to counter with a report from your own expert. not my profession but seems frivolous and possibly subject to a counter-claim for malicious prosecution.

After having been in the legal profession for a few decades, I have run across MTO on a number of occasions, and I can assure you that Munger Tolles is an extraordinary law firm with truly exceptional litigators. 32 Stanford law grads, 30 from Harvard, 29 from Yale. Good luck with that argument, I don't think it's a winner.

[Mick]

here is the original story.  this is not everyday pushy coaching:

"you're a worthless piece of sh**" (apparently said dozens if not hundreds of times)

"step forward if you've ever been sexually assaulted" (in a mandatory team exercise, then used to demean the athlete)

many more alarming examples.

intriguing that mckeever is threatening to sue the law firm that conducted the investigation, saying that they had no familiarity with gender bias in sports. not a good look as both of the munger, tolles attorneys are women, and one of the 2 was a high-level college athlete. appears that  mckeever is continuing her strategy of trying to get ahead by insulting highly competent women. can you successfully bring suit against an expert if you don't like their report? i thought you had to counter with a report from your own expert. not my profession but seems frivolous and possibly subject to a counter-claim for malicious prosecution.

After having been in the legal profession for a few decades, I have run across MTO on a number of occasions, and I can assure you that Munger Tolles is an extraordinary law firm with truly exceptional litigators. 32 Stanford law grads, 30 from Harvard, 29 from Yale. Good luck with that argument, I don't think it's a winner.

[fullmetal]

Cal won its fourth and most recent national team title in 2015. Shortly thereafter Missy Franklin, winner of four gold medals between her junior and senior years in high school at the 2012 Olympic Games, announced she was leaving the Cal program after two seasons to turn pro. Franklin later returned to Cal to finish her degree and train with Golden Bears men’s head coach Dave Durden in 2016. Earlier Coughlin made a similar move, leaving McKeever to train with Durden. Franklin declined to be interviewed for this article.

When two of your most decorated swimmers decline to train with you and bail for the men's coach at the same school...I think your best athletes are voting with their feet.

[fullmetal]

Cal won its fourth and most recent national team title in 2015. Shortly thereafter Missy Franklin, winner of four gold medals between her junior and senior years in high school at the 2012 Olympic Games, announced she was leaving the Cal program after two seasons to turn pro. Franklin later returned to Cal to finish her degree and train with Golden Bears men’s head coach Dave Durden in 2016. Earlier Coughlin made a similar move, leaving McKeever to train with Durden. Franklin declined to be interviewed for this article.

When two of your most decorated swimmers decline to train with you and bail for the men's coach at the same school...I think your best athletes are voting with their feet.