[dabigv13]

So you thought Mbappe and France were classless losers for not staying on the field in 2022 to clap for Argentina lifting the trophy?

I'm not sure why you focus on this one narrow point while ignoring the bigger picture (and numerous incidents) regarding Argentina's behavior on Sunday, and I know that your passion for the team will not allow me to convince you, but here goes:

You were the one who brought it up in the first place, and it's a dumb story I've seen repeated in many other places. And it's hypocritical of you to have likely never even pondered what the second place team does during the WC trophy presentation before, but you care now because it's Argentina.

I have not defended the other antics after the game because I didn't like them either. The Spanish player who got the throat shot said something nasty to Paredes but that is not an excuse for violence. But Spain were not some shining white knights of ethical football during the game either. Cubarsi did a triple axel to draw Enzo's second yellow. Yamal dove without contact. Messi got kicked in the knee twice without drawing fouls let alone cards. Spain were constantly whining to the ref for cards, but Messi does it once and he's a villain.

As I already said, Spain were deserved winners and the best in the game and the world cup overall. Part of what they did better than Argentina in the game were the "dark arts", but people overlook those things when it's their team doing it well.

[dabigv13]

So you thought Mbappe and France were classless losers for not staying on the field in 2022 to clap for Argentina lifting the trophy?

I'm not sure why you focus on this one narrow point while ignoring the bigger picture (and numerous incidents) regarding Argentina's behavior on Sunday, and I know that your passion for the team will not allow me to convince you, but here goes:

You were the one who brought it up in the first place, and it's a dumb story I've seen repeated in many other places. And it's hypocritical of you to have likely never even pondered what the second place team does during the WC trophy presentation before, but you care now because it's Argentina.

I have not defended the other antics after the game because I didn't like them either. The Spanish player who got the throat shot said something nasty to Paredes but that is not an excuse for violence. But Spain were not some shining white knights of ethical football during the game either. Cubarsi did a triple axel to draw Enzo's second yellow. Yamal dove without contact. Messi got kicked in the knee twice without drawing fouls let alone cards. Spain were constantly whining to the ref for cards, but Messi does it once and he's a villain.

As I already said, Spain were deserved winners and the best in the game and the world cup overall. Part of what they did better than Argentina in the game were the "dark arts", but people overlook those things when it's their team doing it well.

[BostonCard]

Argentine fans got panned for being obnoxious and offensive, but AFAIK they weren’t hurling homophobic insults at the opponents goalies.  That was not Mexico’s finest moment, but I don’t want the actions of some fans to prejudice my feelings for El Tri, which is one of my favorite teams.  And I found it rich for the English fans to be complaining about the conduct of any other country’s fans.

BC

Speaking only for myself, as someone who has attended many international matches in person, I have no issue with Argentina fans. I think they are fun and add a lot to the atmosphere. There are other fan bases that are truly toxic. My criticisms are strictly about the team on the field itself.

When I was about 4 years old until I was almost 7, my family lived in Buenos Aires for three years.  My father thought it would be cool to take me to a soccer match, but was dissuaded from doing so having been told that the stands were no place for a child and there was a not insubstantial risk of being hit by a bottle.  From Wikipedia, between 1922 and 2022, 300 people died in conjunction with football-related violence tied to Argentina.  But then again, at that time (the late 70’s) it wouldn’t have been safe to go to a Premier league match either.  So it’s not like Argentine fans can’t be toxic.

With regards to the team itself, would you believe that over the course of the tournament, two Spanish players amassed more fouls than Fernandez, Alvarez, or Paredes (or any of the other Argentine players)?https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/worldcup/canadamexicousa2026/statistics/player-statistics

Yamal had 14 fouls over the course of the tournament (which, for a striker, is pretty bad), and Baena had 13.  Fernandez, Argentina’s biggest fouler was at 12.  All told, Argentina had 113 fouls throughout the tournament, while Spain had 100.  OTOH, Argentina drew more fouls than any other team (100 vs. 89 for Spain).  Argentina did have more yellow cards than anyone else (15) but played more matches than anyone but Spain, England, or France.  In terms of yellow cards per match, they had just under 2, but Egypt (12 in 5 matches) and Canada (11 in 5; I thought they were supposed to be nice!) had more on a per match basis.  Bottom line, despite a pretty bad match against Spain, their overall showing was not an anomaly, unless you are really bothered by the whining to the refs, which is not recorded (and, in any case, they are hardly alone in doing).

BC

[BostonCard]

Argentine fans got panned for being obnoxious and offensive, but AFAIK they weren’t hurling homophobic insults at the opponents goalies.  That was not Mexico’s finest moment, but I don’t want the actions of some fans to prejudice my feelings for El Tri, which is one of my favorite teams.  And I found it rich for the English fans to be complaining about the conduct of any other country’s fans.

BC

Speaking only for myself, as someone who has attended many international matches in person, I have no issue with Argentina fans. I think they are fun and add a lot to the atmosphere. There are other fan bases that are truly toxic. My criticisms are strictly about the team on the field itself.

When I was about 4 years old until I was almost 7, my family lived in Buenos Aires for three years.  My father thought it would be cool to take me to a soccer match, but was dissuaded from doing so having been told that the stands were no place for a child and there was a not insubstantial risk of being hit by a bottle.  From Wikipedia, between 1922 and 2022, 300 people died in conjunction with football-related violence tied to Argentina.  But then again, at that time (the late 70’s) it wouldn’t have been safe to go to a Premier league match either.  So it’s not like Argentine fans can’t be toxic.

With regards to the team itself, would you believe that over the course of the tournament, two Spanish players amassed more fouls than Fernandez, Alvarez, or Paredes (or any of the other Argentine players)?https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/worldcup/canadamexicousa2026/statistics/player-statistics

Yamal had 14 fouls over the course of the tournament (which, for a striker, is pretty bad), and Baena had 13.  Fernandez, Argentina’s biggest fouler was at 12.  All told, Argentina had 113 fouls throughout the tournament, while Spain had 100.  OTOH, Argentina drew more fouls than any other team (100 vs. 89 for Spain).  Argentina did have more yellow cards than anyone else (15) but played more matches than anyone but Spain, England, or France.  In terms of yellow cards per match, they had just under 2, but Egypt (12 in 5 matches) and Canada (11 in 5; I thought they were supposed to be nice!) had more on a per match basis.  Bottom line, despite a pretty bad match against Spain, their overall showing was not an anomaly, unless you are really bothered by the whining to the refs, which is not recorded (and, in any case, they are hardly alone in doing).

BC

[jacket3ree]

Kinda thought Spain was better at, I don't know, shooting the ball at the goal. 12-0 on target. Total attempts 20-2. 

But my futbol experience is limited to refereeing a bunch of AYSO kids (really their parents), so what do I know?

[jacket3ree]

Kinda thought Spain was better at, I don't know, shooting the ball at the goal. 12-0 on target. Total attempts 20-2. 

But my futbol experience is limited to refereeing a bunch of AYSO kids (really their parents), so what do I know?

[BostonCard]

Kinda thought Spain was better at, I don't know, shooting the ball at the goal. 12-0 on target. Total attempts 20-2. 

But my futbol experience is limited to refereeing a bunch of AYSO kids (really their parents), so what do I know?

Was I disputing that?  I’d be hard pressed to find anyone who thought that Argentina should have won.

BC

[BostonCard]

Kinda thought Spain was better at, I don't know, shooting the ball at the goal. 12-0 on target. Total attempts 20-2. 

But my futbol experience is limited to refereeing a bunch of AYSO kids (really their parents), so what do I know?

Was I disputing that?  I’d be hard pressed to find anyone who thought that Argentina should have won.

BC

[jacket3ree]

You were not, BC. Apologies for not quoting. (I expect y'all to match my wife's expectation that I know to what she is referring at all times, without further explanation.) I was responding to dabigv's statement that Spain was better at the dark arts than Argentina was and we just didn't notice because we were all rooting for Spain. My lightly needling point is that you have a better chance of putting a ball in the back of the net if you actually get a ball near the front of the net. I'm not sure how dark of an art that is.

I haven't seen anyone anywhere who thought Argentina should have won, including dabigv. Just varying degrees of how disgraceful Argentina's performance was or wasn't. Sure some punches were thrown and some liberties were taken with their female party guests, but I don't think Argentina sits in disgrace or anything like that. They clearly ran a gauntlet to the final and that is impressive. Spain was just better, clearly better, and I started to root for them not to go home 0-0 penalty kick losers after all that.

[jacket3ree]

You were not, BC. Apologies for not quoting. (I expect y'all to match my wife's expectation that I know to what she is referring at all times, without further explanation.) I was responding to dabigv's statement that Spain was better at the dark arts than Argentina was and we just didn't notice because we were all rooting for Spain. My lightly needling point is that you have a better chance of putting a ball in the back of the net if you actually get a ball near the front of the net. I'm not sure how dark of an art that is.

I haven't seen anyone anywhere who thought Argentina should have won, including dabigv. Just varying degrees of how disgraceful Argentina's performance was or wasn't. Sure some punches were thrown and some liberties were taken with their female party guests, but I don't think Argentina sits in disgrace or anything like that. They clearly ran a gauntlet to the final and that is impressive. Spain was just better, clearly better, and I started to root for them not to go home 0-0 penalty kick losers after all that.

[PVTree]

Argentine fans got panned for being obnoxious and offensive, but AFAIK they weren’t hurling homophobic insults at the opponents goalies.  That was not Mexico’s finest moment, but I don’t want the actions of some fans to prejudice my feelings for El Tri, which is one of my favorite teams.  And I found it rich for the English fans to be complaining about the conduct of any other country’s fans.

BC

Speaking only for myself, as someone who has attended many international matches in person, I have no issue with Argentina fans. I think they are fun and add a lot to the atmosphere. There are other fan bases that are truly toxic. My criticisms are strictly about the team on the field itself.

When I was about 4 years old until I was almost 7, my family lived in Buenos Aires for three years.  My father thought it would be cool to take me to a soccer match, but was dissuaded from doing so having been told that the stands were no place for a child and there was a not insubstantial risk of being hit by a bottle.  From Wikipedia, between 1922 and 2022, 300 people died in conjunction with football-related violence tied to Argentina.  But then again, at that time (the late 70’s) it wouldn’t have been safe to go to a Premier league match either.  So it’s not like Argentine fans can’t be toxic.

With regards to the team itself, would you believe that over the course of the tournament, two Spanish players amassed more fouls than Fernandez, Alvarez, or Paredes (or any of the other Argentine players)?https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/worldcup/canadamexicousa2026/statistics/player-statistics

Yamal had 14 fouls over the course of the tournament (which, for a striker, is pretty bad), and Baena had 13.  Fernandez, Argentina’s biggest fouler was at 12.  All told, Argentina had 113 fouls throughout the tournament, while Spain had 100.  OTOH, Argentina drew more fouls than any other team (100 vs. 89 for Spain).  Argentina did have more yellow cards than anyone else (15) but played more matches than anyone but Spain, England, or France.  In terms of yellow cards per match, they had just under 2, but Egypt (12 in 5 matches) and Canada (11 in 5; I thought they were supposed to be nice!) had more on a per match basis.  Bottom line, despite a pretty bad match against Spain, their overall showing was not an anomaly, unless you are really bothered by the whining to the refs, which is not recorded (and, in any case, they are hardly alone in doing).

BC

Those foul statistics don't count the fouls that were not called that they committed... One of the beefs brought up by the tango-haters.

[PVTree]

Argentine fans got panned for being obnoxious and offensive, but AFAIK they weren’t hurling homophobic insults at the opponents goalies.  That was not Mexico’s finest moment, but I don’t want the actions of some fans to prejudice my feelings for El Tri, which is one of my favorite teams.  And I found it rich for the English fans to be complaining about the conduct of any other country’s fans.

BC

Speaking only for myself, as someone who has attended many international matches in person, I have no issue with Argentina fans. I think they are fun and add a lot to the atmosphere. There are other fan bases that are truly toxic. My criticisms are strictly about the team on the field itself.

When I was about 4 years old until I was almost 7, my family lived in Buenos Aires for three years.  My father thought it would be cool to take me to a soccer match, but was dissuaded from doing so having been told that the stands were no place for a child and there was a not insubstantial risk of being hit by a bottle.  From Wikipedia, between 1922 and 2022, 300 people died in conjunction with football-related violence tied to Argentina.  But then again, at that time (the late 70’s) it wouldn’t have been safe to go to a Premier league match either.  So it’s not like Argentine fans can’t be toxic.

With regards to the team itself, would you believe that over the course of the tournament, two Spanish players amassed more fouls than Fernandez, Alvarez, or Paredes (or any of the other Argentine players)?https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/worldcup/canadamexicousa2026/statistics/player-statistics

Yamal had 14 fouls over the course of the tournament (which, for a striker, is pretty bad), and Baena had 13.  Fernandez, Argentina’s biggest fouler was at 12.  All told, Argentina had 113 fouls throughout the tournament, while Spain had 100.  OTOH, Argentina drew more fouls than any other team (100 vs. 89 for Spain).  Argentina did have more yellow cards than anyone else (15) but played more matches than anyone but Spain, England, or France.  In terms of yellow cards per match, they had just under 2, but Egypt (12 in 5 matches) and Canada (11 in 5; I thought they were supposed to be nice!) had more on a per match basis.  Bottom line, despite a pretty bad match against Spain, their overall showing was not an anomaly, unless you are really bothered by the whining to the refs, which is not recorded (and, in any case, they are hardly alone in doing).

BC

Those foul statistics don't count the fouls that were not called that they committed... One of the beefs brought up by the tango-haters.

[BostonCard]

The flip side is they also count the fouls that were induced by flopping.  We know of at least one that was overturned by VAR (because it would have led to a yellow card), but there were clearly others, and I think Argentina’s reputation probably offset any bias.

BC

[BostonCard]

The flip side is they also count the fouls that were induced by flopping.  We know of at least one that was overturned by VAR (because it would have led to a yellow card), but there were clearly others, and I think Argentina’s reputation probably offset any bias.

BC

[dabigv13]

Yeah, sure, Argentina is the only team that fouls and gets away with it. *wanking hand motion*.

If it weren't such a pointless exercise it would be trivial to find 5, maybe 10 fouls Spain got away with, some that legitimately could have changed the game like Messi being fouled just outside the box deep in ET down 1-0. For the third or fourth time I will reiterate that Argentina was outplayed and deserved to lose the game to Spain.

Hate who you want to hate, but what rankles me is the idea that there is some moral or ethical superiority implied by your sporting preference. The Argentina hate this WC has really gotten out of hand. The New Yorker, The Nation, Jacobin have all done articles about the merits or not of supporting or rooting against Argentina for various political or racial reasons. Even Palestine got dragged into this somehow (Netanyahu supported Argentina so supporting Argentina is anti-Palestinian). The New York Post did a manufactured outrage story about that dirty Messi leading Argentina in turning their backs on Spain during the trophy presentation (of course, they did not do a story in 2018 or 2022 when the second place team had already left the field).

And as a postscript to the Paredes incident, Gavi the Spanish player who Paredes shoved to the ground (after Gavi shoved him) said that he didn't think there should be any suspensions or discipline.

"Should the Argentine players be sanctioned? I don't think they should be suspended. I understand that it's not a good image for children, but there's that part of football that's a bit more violent.

It's all football and it has to always be that way."

https://x.com/sudanalytics_/status/20796...42458?s=20

Personally I think a game or three is reasonable. But Paredes is not some unique evil player. Gattuso, Pepe, Sergio Ramos, De Jong, do the people calling Paredes a thug think those guys were thugs too? (To me, and I love Rino Gattuso, they are perhaps all thugs, but also the hard man enforcer is a part of football, not a uniquely Argentinian one).

[dabigv13]

Yeah, sure, Argentina is the only team that fouls and gets away with it. *wanking hand motion*.

If it weren't such a pointless exercise it would be trivial to find 5, maybe 10 fouls Spain got away with, some that legitimately could have changed the game like Messi being fouled just outside the box deep in ET down 1-0. For the third or fourth time I will reiterate that Argentina was outplayed and deserved to lose the game to Spain.

Hate who you want to hate, but what rankles me is the idea that there is some moral or ethical superiority implied by your sporting preference. The Argentina hate this WC has really gotten out of hand. The New Yorker, The Nation, Jacobin have all done articles about the merits or not of supporting or rooting against Argentina for various political or racial reasons. Even Palestine got dragged into this somehow (Netanyahu supported Argentina so supporting Argentina is anti-Palestinian). The New York Post did a manufactured outrage story about that dirty Messi leading Argentina in turning their backs on Spain during the trophy presentation (of course, they did not do a story in 2018 or 2022 when the second place team had already left the field).

And as a postscript to the Paredes incident, Gavi the Spanish player who Paredes shoved to the ground (after Gavi shoved him) said that he didn't think there should be any suspensions or discipline.

"Should the Argentine players be sanctioned? I don't think they should be suspended. I understand that it's not a good image for children, but there's that part of football that's a bit more violent.

It's all football and it has to always be that way."

https://x.com/sudanalytics_/status/20796...42458?s=20

Personally I think a game or three is reasonable. But Paredes is not some unique evil player. Gattuso, Pepe, Sergio Ramos, De Jong, do the people calling Paredes a thug think those guys were thugs too? (To me, and I love Rino Gattuso, they are perhaps all thugs, but also the hard man enforcer is a part of football, not a uniquely Argentinian one).

[76lsjumb]

I’m confused. Is this a thread about the World Cup or the WNBA…?

[76lsjumb]

I’m confused. Is this a thread about the World Cup or the WNBA…?

[Hieronymus]

We have gotten unproductive at the end here; so these are my last thoughts.

I have generally not seen a lot of major incidents from Argentina’s fans over many years though we did for have some incidents of let’s say poor taste and politics this world cup. Argentina may be arrogant but that isn’t specifically a soccer thing and on the scale it’s barely a soccer misdemeanor. This is really a red herring anyway, and not relevant to me when analyzing the game.

The team though was badly outclassed in the final and dialed the dark arts up to 11. Minds can disagree on how bad that is - as I noted pregame, I expected it and wasn’t a fan of their earlier games. Fine. But arguing this was “normal” levels of dark arts just doesn’t fly at all. This was Uruguay on their worst days.

Finally, there isn’t any defense for the post game. Molina punches Rodri in the stomach to kick it off and it’s a full trainwreck from there including one or Argentina’s assistant coaches. Not ok.

Now again there apparently were no red cards at the end, but FIFA has brought in an investigator to review the tape. Practically, I think given Violent Conduct standards that say 3 games is the minimum, and considering this was seen by I expect well over a billion people, there are going to be major repercussions. Again I expect 5 games minimum for Parades. Molina would be at least 3 if he is suspended. And who knows on the coach since he is an easy target. A federation fine would also not be a surprise. It doesn’t make Argentina evil, but there will be consequences. As there should be.

[Hieronymus]

We have gotten unproductive at the end here; so these are my last thoughts.

I have generally not seen a lot of major incidents from Argentina’s fans over many years though we did for have some incidents of let’s say poor taste and politics this world cup. Argentina may be arrogant but that isn’t specifically a soccer thing and on the scale it’s barely a soccer misdemeanor. This is really a red herring anyway, and not relevant to me when analyzing the game.

The team though was badly outclassed in the final and dialed the dark arts up to 11. Minds can disagree on how bad that is - as I noted pregame, I expected it and wasn’t a fan of their earlier games. Fine. But arguing this was “normal” levels of dark arts just doesn’t fly at all. This was Uruguay on their worst days.

Finally, there isn’t any defense for the post game. Molina punches Rodri in the stomach to kick it off and it’s a full trainwreck from there including one or Argentina’s assistant coaches. Not ok.

Now again there apparently were no red cards at the end, but FIFA has brought in an investigator to review the tape. Practically, I think given Violent Conduct standards that say 3 games is the minimum, and considering this was seen by I expect well over a billion people, there are going to be major repercussions. Again I expect 5 games minimum for Parades. Molina would be at least 3 if he is suspended. And who knows on the coach since he is an easy target. A federation fine would also not be a surprise. It doesn’t make Argentina evil, but there will be consequences. As there should be.