[DC 86]

[quote author=French Rage link=topic=17300.msg199054#msg199054 date=1504545144]
12-8 in his career.  (Meanwhile our QBs are 22-5 in that same span.)

To be fair to Rosen, our QB's supporting cast is better, even though his was more highly recruited.

BC
[/quote]

Not to mention defense and coaching staff. Rosen has had three different offensive co-ordinators in three seasons.

Moreover, none of our QBs played as true freshmen, much less started all the games as a true freshman.

His skill position players were certainly more highly recruited, but none turned out to be McCaffrey. And our OL has consisted of a number of elite recruits.

Rosen may or may not have been a good fit for Stanford, but his talent is undeniable.

[DC 86]

[quote author=French Rage link=topic=17300.msg199054#msg199054 date=1504545144]
12-8 in his career.  (Meanwhile our QBs are 22-5 in that same span.)

To be fair to Rosen, our QB's supporting cast is better, even though his was more highly recruited.

BC
[/quote]

Not to mention defense and coaching staff. Rosen has had three different offensive co-ordinators in three seasons.

Moreover, none of our QBs played as true freshmen, much less started all the games as a true freshman.

His skill position players were certainly more highly recruited, but none turned out to be McCaffrey. And our OL has consisted of a number of elite recruits.

Rosen may or may not have been a good fit for Stanford, but his talent is undeniable.

[lex24]

Yes. The discussion was boring starting about two years ago.

[quote author=lex24 link=topic=17297.msg199052#msg199052 date=1504544412]
Ah a Rosen thread. Gee I missed those.

Isn't there a whole message board dedicated to that on TOS?

BC
[/quote]

[lex24]

Yes. The discussion was boring starting about two years ago.

[quote author=lex24 link=topic=17297.msg199052#msg199052 date=1504544412]
Ah a Rosen thread. Gee I missed those.

Isn't there a whole message board dedicated to that on TOS?

BC
[/quote]

[GoodGrief]

OKAFOR

[GoodGrief]

OKAFOR

[Treebound]

I love that one GoodGrief!

Can't get them all.  Did Okafor actually fill out the application?  I can't remember, but I think his parents were big on Stanford. 

As for Rosen, like Okafor, that ship has sailed.  The key for me is what has Shaw learned during his tenure?  I think he's learned a fair bit  and he's our coach and I'm thankful for that fact.  You make the best decisions you can and move on and learn from each one.  I think Shaw is about continuous improvement, for himself, for his staff and for his players.  I think he would be the first one to admit that he still has much to learn.  I'm fine with that because nobody is going to get it right every single time. 

[Treebound]

I love that one GoodGrief!

Can't get them all.  Did Okafor actually fill out the application?  I can't remember, but I think his parents were big on Stanford. 

As for Rosen, like Okafor, that ship has sailed.  The key for me is what has Shaw learned during his tenure?  I think he's learned a fair bit  and he's our coach and I'm thankful for that fact.  You make the best decisions you can and move on and learn from each one.  I think Shaw is about continuous improvement, for himself, for his staff and for his players.  I think he would be the first one to admit that he still has much to learn.  I'm fine with that because nobody is going to get it right every single time. 

[BostonCard]

The issue with Okafor is that we were waiting for one of the twins to decide if he was going pro or not.  By the time the decision was made, Okafor had already committed to UConn.

BC

[BostonCard]

The issue with Okafor is that we were waiting for one of the twins to decide if he was going pro or not.  By the time the decision was made, Okafor had already committed to UConn.

BC

[Langdude]

Coulda had Trajan Langdon, too.

-m.

[Langdude]

Coulda had Trajan Langdon, too.

-m.

[GoodGrief]

Let me give a little more background on We Coulda Had Okafor.

Emeka Okafor wanted to come to Stanford, and he had the grades. The problem was that Rob Little had already accepted a scholarship offer, and we would only have another to give if Jason Collins decided to forgo his senior year for the NBA. And Mike Montgomery, bless his heart, gave Jason WAAAAAAY too much time to decide. So Emeka had to commit to UConn, Jason eventually decided to go pro, and we were left with an unused scholarship.

And let's return to the 2004 season. We had a starting lineup of, I believe, Chris Hernandez at Point, Matt Lottich at SG, Josh Childress at SF, Matt Haryasaz at PF, and Rob Little at C. And Rob Little did fine, but he was the only one of the 5 that was not exceptional. We went like 26-1 in the regular season and had a #1 seed in the tournament. And we were handily beating Alabama in the 2nd round and then had a heart-breaking late collapse. Emeka Okafor with UConn (and one of the most obnoxious basketball coaches in the NCAA) went on to win the National Championship, Player Of The Year, and graduated in 3 years including heading up some special student Economics project. He is also apparently a very smart, respectful, and good person, so I can't even hate him.

We coulda had Okafor.



For me, the Brass Ring has always been a National Championship, in football or basketball. And to come that close knowing that the last piece of the puzzle could have been ours is a super bummer. And that is why Chryst and/or Costello needs to lead us to a National Championship this year.

[GoodGrief]

Let me give a little more background on We Coulda Had Okafor.

Emeka Okafor wanted to come to Stanford, and he had the grades. The problem was that Rob Little had already accepted a scholarship offer, and we would only have another to give if Jason Collins decided to forgo his senior year for the NBA. And Mike Montgomery, bless his heart, gave Jason WAAAAAAY too much time to decide. So Emeka had to commit to UConn, Jason eventually decided to go pro, and we were left with an unused scholarship.

And let's return to the 2004 season. We had a starting lineup of, I believe, Chris Hernandez at Point, Matt Lottich at SG, Josh Childress at SF, Matt Haryasaz at PF, and Rob Little at C. And Rob Little did fine, but he was the only one of the 5 that was not exceptional. We went like 26-1 in the regular season and had a #1 seed in the tournament. And we were handily beating Alabama in the 2nd round and then had a heart-breaking late collapse. Emeka Okafor with UConn (and one of the most obnoxious basketball coaches in the NCAA) went on to win the National Championship, Player Of The Year, and graduated in 3 years including heading up some special student Economics project. He is also apparently a very smart, respectful, and good person, so I can't even hate him.

We coulda had Okafor.



For me, the Brass Ring has always been a National Championship, in football or basketball. And to come that close knowing that the last piece of the puzzle could have been ours is a super bummer. And that is why Chryst and/or Costello needs to lead us to a National Championship this year.

[dabigv13]

That UCONN team was stacked. I think they had like 7 or 8 players drafted from that roster. Even without him they couldve won the NT. Still, he was a beast that year; I was surprised he didn't do more in NBA.

[dabigv13]

That UCONN team was stacked. I think they had like 7 or 8 players drafted from that roster. Even without him they couldve won the NT. Still, he was a beast that year; I was surprised he didn't do more in NBA.

[Hank 91]

I know this has been discussed to death, but I can't help myself. I have to respond to the question. Rosen could certainly help us, just as any good quarterback could help any team. Last night's game was pretty amazing, and Rosen has done other amazing things also, but here's the thing. No matter how many insiders any of us talks to, we can never, ever have all the information that the coaches have. Let me echo what some have said earlier on this thread -- I trust this coaching staff, and not just because I have no other choice. Let's assume that the whispers we've heard are true, namely that the staff didn't like Rosen's attitude and didn't feel like he'd be a fit for the program. Just as those rumors were flying around, Trent Dilfer said essentially the same thing on national television. I know we all know this, but again, let's not debate that. Let's assume it's all true.

So then Shaw, et al, have to make a choice. Do they take a supremely talented quarterback whose attitude might poison the program? I don't think there's even a decision to make there, to be honest. I don't have the access that some people on this board enjoy, but I've been able to interview eight players over the past five years, and I've asked each one of them why he chose Stanford. The answer has always been a variation of the same thing -- it's the locker room. When they came for Junior Day or Big Visit Weekend, they saw themselves in the players on the roster and the players being recruited. I'm not so delusional to think that all Stanford players are angels, just the same as not all the kids in my various dorms were angels, but the fact remains that something different is happening here. So wouldn't it be a good idea for the coaches to maintain that level of character? To do otherwise would be to go back on the challenge laid down by Harbaugh and Shaw when they arrived: "If you recruit great kids who are also great football players and get them all in the same locker room, what might happen?"

I don't think Josh Rosen is a bad kid, and I'm genuinely happy that he's found success at UCLA. But not for a single second -- not when he threw for three hundred yards in his debut, not when he was hanging out with an Arizona coed in his dorm-room jacuzzi, and not when he threw four touchdown passes in the fourth quarter last night -- have I ever wished he had come to Stanford. Would he have corrupted the locker room? We'll never know. We do know, however, that he hasn't.

(In case you're wondering, I strongly wish that Emeka Okafor had come.)

[Hank 91]

I know this has been discussed to death, but I can't help myself. I have to respond to the question. Rosen could certainly help us, just as any good quarterback could help any team. Last night's game was pretty amazing, and Rosen has done other amazing things also, but here's the thing. No matter how many insiders any of us talks to, we can never, ever have all the information that the coaches have. Let me echo what some have said earlier on this thread -- I trust this coaching staff, and not just because I have no other choice. Let's assume that the whispers we've heard are true, namely that the staff didn't like Rosen's attitude and didn't feel like he'd be a fit for the program. Just as those rumors were flying around, Trent Dilfer said essentially the same thing on national television. I know we all know this, but again, let's not debate that. Let's assume it's all true.

So then Shaw, et al, have to make a choice. Do they take a supremely talented quarterback whose attitude might poison the program? I don't think there's even a decision to make there, to be honest. I don't have the access that some people on this board enjoy, but I've been able to interview eight players over the past five years, and I've asked each one of them why he chose Stanford. The answer has always been a variation of the same thing -- it's the locker room. When they came for Junior Day or Big Visit Weekend, they saw themselves in the players on the roster and the players being recruited. I'm not so delusional to think that all Stanford players are angels, just the same as not all the kids in my various dorms were angels, but the fact remains that something different is happening here. So wouldn't it be a good idea for the coaches to maintain that level of character? To do otherwise would be to go back on the challenge laid down by Harbaugh and Shaw when they arrived: "If you recruit great kids who are also great football players and get them all in the same locker room, what might happen?"

I don't think Josh Rosen is a bad kid, and I'm genuinely happy that he's found success at UCLA. But not for a single second -- not when he threw for three hundred yards in his debut, not when he was hanging out with an Arizona coed in his dorm-room jacuzzi, and not when he threw four touchdown passes in the fourth quarter last night -- have I ever wished he had come to Stanford. Would he have corrupted the locker room? We'll never know. We do know, however, that he hasn't.

(In case you're wondering, I strongly wish that Emeka Okafor had come.)

[fullmetal]

As long as Rosen is playing college ball, it's absolutely fair to evaluate the effectiveness of our coaching staff's decision making w.r.t. offers.  It's not often that the coaches pass on a player of Rosen's talent--usually it's really talented players who leave Stanford (or decline Stanford) to go elsewhere to success of varying degrees (Zumwalt, Najver, Winston, Okafor).

Yes, it's an exercise in navel-gazing for fans, but you usually hope that the coaches are making offers to the right kids, especially given how important recruiting can be for college programs.

[fullmetal]

As long as Rosen is playing college ball, it's absolutely fair to evaluate the effectiveness of our coaching staff's decision making w.r.t. offers.  It's not often that the coaches pass on a player of Rosen's talent--usually it's really talented players who leave Stanford (or decline Stanford) to go elsewhere to success of varying degrees (Zumwalt, Najver, Winston, Okafor).

Yes, it's an exercise in navel-gazing for fans, but you usually hope that the coaches are making offers to the right kids, especially given how important recruiting can be for college programs.

[Treebound]

Thank you Good Grief (and Hank too),
That's exactly how I remember the Okafor saga.  He clearly would have helped us. 

Do I think Monty learned a lesson in the process - absolutely! 

Time will tell if Shaw has a lesson to learn with Rosen, but like MOST here, I trust his decision making on this subject.  Andrew Luck was and is a class act.  Winning with Class is much better than winning at all costs, in my book.  Do I want an NC in Football (and hoops), YES, but not if it means we do it like $C or Bama.  We are better than that and we always should be.  I think we can win it all and I think we can win it the right way!   

[Treebound]

Thank you Good Grief (and Hank too),
That's exactly how I remember the Okafor saga.  He clearly would have helped us. 

Do I think Monty learned a lesson in the process - absolutely! 

Time will tell if Shaw has a lesson to learn with Rosen, but like MOST here, I trust his decision making on this subject.  Andrew Luck was and is a class act.  Winning with Class is much better than winning at all costs, in my book.  Do I want an NC in Football (and hoops), YES, but not if it means we do it like $C or Bama.  We are better than that and we always should be.  I think we can win it all and I think we can win it the right way!   

[fullmetal]

johnnyO's point is that Rosen is winning without tarnish.  Rosen may be outspoken, but he's not contributing Fulmer Cup points or anything.  johnnyO contends that Rosen's field performance is far and away more valuable than the controversy of Rosen's public opinions.  Indeed, who knows if Rosen would even be speaking publicly under David Shaw?

On the other hand, you have to trust David Shaw's judgment of who he trusts at QB.  The QB is an extension of the coach in a sense, and in that regard, the trust has to be absolute.  Game execution, field observations, locker room culture, etc. are all elements over which QBs can have major influence.

[fullmetal]

johnnyO's point is that Rosen is winning without tarnish.  Rosen may be outspoken, but he's not contributing Fulmer Cup points or anything.  johnnyO contends that Rosen's field performance is far and away more valuable than the controversy of Rosen's public opinions.  Indeed, who knows if Rosen would even be speaking publicly under David Shaw?

On the other hand, you have to trust David Shaw's judgment of who he trusts at QB.  The QB is an extension of the coach in a sense, and in that regard, the trust has to be absolute.  Game execution, field observations, locker room culture, etc. are all elements over which QBs can have major influence.

[CTcard]

And Muncie if Mike White hadn't stolen him when he left.

This is the most intriguing post I have seen in a while. Can't believe nobody has commented.
Care to elaborate?

I am very surprised Muncie was a candidate for Stanford, but that was before I was paying attention. He certainly had his troubles, though that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't have acceptable grades. He started out in junior college, but back in those days Stanford took a lot more of those.

[CTcard]

And Muncie if Mike White hadn't stolen him when he left.

This is the most intriguing post I have seen in a while. Can't believe nobody has commented.
Care to elaborate?

I am very surprised Muncie was a candidate for Stanford, but that was before I was paying attention. He certainly had his troubles, though that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't have acceptable grades. He started out in junior college, but back in those days Stanford took a lot more of those.

[stupac2]

johnnyO's point is that Rosen is winning without tarnish.  Rosen may be outspoken, but he's not contributing Fulmer Cup points or anything.  johnnyO contends that Rosen's field performance is far and away more valuable than the controversy of Rosen's public opinions.  Indeed, who knows if Rosen would even be speaking publicly under David Shaw?

On the other hand, you have to trust David Shaw's judgment of who he trusts at QB.  The QB is an extension of the coach in a sense, and in that regard, the trust has to be absolute.  Game execution, field observations, locker room culture, etc. are all elements over which QBs can have major influence.

The problem here is that you have to explore the counterfactual. If we grant the premise that Rosen wasn't offered because Shaw was worried about his personality, that means Rosen suffered a pretty humiliating and fairly public rebuke. Perhaps that changed him. Perhaps if we had offered he would have thought that he was doing nothing wrong, and whatever personality trait Shaw identified as a concern would have grown. We can't say.

[stupac2]

johnnyO's point is that Rosen is winning without tarnish.  Rosen may be outspoken, but he's not contributing Fulmer Cup points or anything.  johnnyO contends that Rosen's field performance is far and away more valuable than the controversy of Rosen's public opinions.  Indeed, who knows if Rosen would even be speaking publicly under David Shaw?

On the other hand, you have to trust David Shaw's judgment of who he trusts at QB.  The QB is an extension of the coach in a sense, and in that regard, the trust has to be absolute.  Game execution, field observations, locker room culture, etc. are all elements over which QBs can have major influence.

The problem here is that you have to explore the counterfactual. If we grant the premise that Rosen wasn't offered because Shaw was worried about his personality, that means Rosen suffered a pretty humiliating and fairly public rebuke. Perhaps that changed him. Perhaps if we had offered he would have thought that he was doing nothing wrong, and whatever personality trait Shaw identified as a concern would have grown. We can't say.

[fullmetal]

That's not true--I remember reading about how outspoken Rosen was in high school, though perhaps about less controversial issues and certainly from a less far-reaching platform.  I highly doubt Rosen is trying to act out against a coach who didn't offer him. 

Having said that, Rosen hasn't really said anything wrong.  He's just been loud.

[fullmetal]

That's not true--I remember reading about how outspoken Rosen was in high school, though perhaps about less controversial issues and certainly from a less far-reaching platform.  I highly doubt Rosen is trying to act out against a coach who didn't offer him. 

Having said that, Rosen hasn't really said anything wrong.  He's just been loud.

[Mick]

That's not true--I remember reading about how outspoken Rosen was in high school, though perhaps about less controversial issues and certainly from a less far-reaching platform.  I highly doubt Rosen is trying to act out against a coach who didn't offer him. 

Having said that, Rosen hasn't really said anything wrong.  He's just been loud.

I don't recall where I read it, but I read an interview with Rosen while he was in high school that was remarkably, almost extraordinarily tone deaf.  I just remember pitying whatever college coach he ended up with.  It was beyond high school ego, beyond BMOC stuff.

[Mick]

That's not true--I remember reading about how outspoken Rosen was in high school, though perhaps about less controversial issues and certainly from a less far-reaching platform.  I highly doubt Rosen is trying to act out against a coach who didn't offer him. 

Having said that, Rosen hasn't really said anything wrong.  He's just been loud.

I don't recall where I read it, but I read an interview with Rosen while he was in high school that was remarkably, almost extraordinarily tone deaf.  I just remember pitying whatever college coach he ended up with.  It was beyond high school ego, beyond BMOC stuff.

[SF_Cardinal_Fan]

[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=17297.msg199177#msg199177 date=1504626346]
That's not true--I remember reading about how outspoken Rosen was in high school, though perhaps about less controversial issues and certainly from a less far-reaching platform.  I highly doubt Rosen is trying to act out against a coach who didn't offer him. 

Having said that, Rosen hasn't really said anything wrong.  He's just been loud.

I don't recall where I read it, but I read an interview with Rosen while he was in high school that was remarkably, almost extraordinarily tone deaf.  I just remember pitying whatever college coach he ended up with.  It was beyond high school ego, beyond BMOC stuff.
[/quote]

Please clarify what you mean by "tone deaf" ?

[SF_Cardinal_Fan]

[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=17297.msg199177#msg199177 date=1504626346]
That's not true--I remember reading about how outspoken Rosen was in high school, though perhaps about less controversial issues and certainly from a less far-reaching platform.  I highly doubt Rosen is trying to act out against a coach who didn't offer him. 

Having said that, Rosen hasn't really said anything wrong.  He's just been loud.

I don't recall where I read it, but I read an interview with Rosen while he was in high school that was remarkably, almost extraordinarily tone deaf.  I just remember pitying whatever college coach he ended up with.  It was beyond high school ego, beyond BMOC stuff.
[/quote]

Please clarify what you mean by "tone deaf" ?

[Mick]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=17297.msg199284#msg199284 date=1504672140]
[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=17297.msg199177#msg199177 date=1504626346]
That's not true--I remember reading about how outspoken Rosen was in high school, though perhaps about less controversial issues and certainly from a less far-reaching platform.  I highly doubt Rosen is trying to act out against a coach who didn't offer him. 

Having said that, Rosen hasn't really said anything wrong.  He's just been loud.

I don't recall where I read it, but I read an interview with Rosen while he was in high school that was remarkably, almost extraordinarily tone deaf.  I just remember pitying whatever college coach he ended up with.  It was beyond high school ego, beyond BMOC stuff.
[/quote]

Please clarify what you mean by "tone deaf" ?
[/quote]


He was the height of obnoxious in this interview, and implied that coaches should listen to him rather than the other way around.  The lasting impression I had was that he'd be a nightmare to coach...an opinion that, I suspect, Coach Mora would agree with.

[Mick]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=17297.msg199284#msg199284 date=1504672140]
[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=17297.msg199177#msg199177 date=1504626346]
That's not true--I remember reading about how outspoken Rosen was in high school, though perhaps about less controversial issues and certainly from a less far-reaching platform.  I highly doubt Rosen is trying to act out against a coach who didn't offer him. 

Having said that, Rosen hasn't really said anything wrong.  He's just been loud.

I don't recall where I read it, but I read an interview with Rosen while he was in high school that was remarkably, almost extraordinarily tone deaf.  I just remember pitying whatever college coach he ended up with.  It was beyond high school ego, beyond BMOC stuff.
[/quote]

Please clarify what you mean by "tone deaf" ?
[/quote]


He was the height of obnoxious in this interview, and implied that coaches should listen to him rather than the other way around.  The lasting impression I had was that he'd be a nightmare to coach...an opinion that, I suspect, Coach Mora would agree with.

[JohnR34231]

Here's one draft analysis that thinks Rosen's brash, outspoken personality may hurt him come draft time.
http://walterfootball.com/draft2018.php

[JohnR34231]

Here's one draft analysis that thinks Rosen's brash, outspoken personality may hurt him come draft time.
http://walterfootball.com/draft2018.php

[GoodGrief]

NFL coaches and owners are wary of the sort of things Rosen has discussed to the media, and his open views could hurt him. Scouts have told us that his teammates don't like him either, so that's a major strike against him. And for the cherry on top, even if his high school coach criticized him. However, Rosen's epic comeback against Texas A&M almost certainly has helped repair his draft stock a bit.
Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2018.php#...7hoYz5s.99

Interesting that enough of Rosen's teammates don't like him that it's known to scouts. Reminds me of what I've heard of the Casey Jacobsen situation. I know nothing firsthand, but I had heard that an explanation for the team's relative underperformance during Jacbosen's last year was lack of chemistry due to his ego.

[GoodGrief]

NFL coaches and owners are wary of the sort of things Rosen has discussed to the media, and his open views could hurt him. Scouts have told us that his teammates don't like him either, so that's a major strike against him. And for the cherry on top, even if his high school coach criticized him. However, Rosen's epic comeback against Texas A&M almost certainly has helped repair his draft stock a bit.
Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2018.php#...7hoYz5s.99

Interesting that enough of Rosen's teammates don't like him that it's known to scouts. Reminds me of what I've heard of the Casey Jacobsen situation. I know nothing firsthand, but I had heard that an explanation for the team's relative underperformance during Jacbosen's last year was lack of chemistry due to his ego.