[76lsjumb]

In case you're wondering why this kind of stuff is tolerated: http://m.si.com/3553360/the-wrong-response/

Man, Martin was real soft at Stanford. Buried guys under an avalanche of the softest toilet paper, that guy.

Let me get this straight.  A bunch of "NFL personnel" people are happy to criticize Martin for being "soft" because he didn't  deal with it "in house." 

And these "NFL personnel" people would be ...?  Oh wait, we don't know, because they all SPOKE ON CONDITION OF ANONYMITY!!!

Yeah, that's real stand-up -- tell everyone how they would have handled it like a man [but, hey, no way you can use my name!]  >:(

As for wanting Incognito, rather than Martin, next to you in a bar fight, I've got a better idea:  Don't get involved in bar fights in the first place ...

[76lsjumb]

In case you're wondering why this kind of stuff is tolerated: http://m.si.com/3553360/the-wrong-response/

Man, Martin was real soft at Stanford. Buried guys under an avalanche of the softest toilet paper, that guy.

Let me get this straight.  A bunch of "NFL personnel" people are happy to criticize Martin for being "soft" because he didn't  deal with it "in house." 

And these "NFL personnel" people would be ...?  Oh wait, we don't know, because they all SPOKE ON CONDITION OF ANONYMITY!!!

Yeah, that's real stand-up -- tell everyone how they would have handled it like a man [but, hey, no way you can use my name!]  >:(

As for wanting Incognito, rather than Martin, next to you in a bar fight, I've got a better idea:  Don't get involved in bar fights in the first place ...

[SUBuddha]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=8717.msg73529#msg73529 date=1383618283]
In case you're wondering why this kind of stuff is tolerated: http://m.si.com/3553360/the-wrong-response/

Man, Martin was real soft at Stanford. Buried guys under an avalanche of the softest toilet paper, that guy.

Let me get this straight.  A bunch of "NFL personnel" people are happy to criticize Martin for being "soft" because he didn't  deal with it "in house." 

And these "NFL personnel" people would be ...?  Oh wait, we don't know, because they all SPOKE ON CONDITION OF ANONYMITY!!!

Yeah, that's real stand-up -- tell everyone how they would have handled it like a man [but, hey, no way you can use my name!]  >:(

As for wanting Incognito, rather than Martin, next to you in a bar fight, I've got a better idea:  Don't get involved in bar fights in the first place ...
[/quote]

There in lies the problem. I am going to come clean here, I may get negative feedback, and that is fine, but this is an issue Mrs. Buddha and I have been talking about a lot since this came to light. This may get long and convoluted, but I ask you to hear me out. I teach developmental and evolutionary psychology for a living, so I know the data on bullying from a developmental side quite well (I am actually giving a lecture on that next week). At the same time I have been a bouncer/bartender since my freshman year at LSJU and occasionally have fought in cages and boxing rings since my sophomore year in high school. As an aside, I have been dealing with a ton of crap from the U of A athletic department this year over failing athletes, so I have had a couple Beam and Cokes. "Forgive me if I go astray".

The back story: I was a big kid growing up. By the time I reached 7th grade (7-9 Jr. High in my area) I was 5'2" 150, I hit a major growth spurt in 8th grade and entered 9th grade at 5'9" 154lbs, and then I hit the weight room and started So. year at 6'1" 210. I had bigger boobs than most of the girls in my school in 7th grade, and had been bullied since the 5th grade. In part, this was due to the fact that I am emotional, have your brother commit suicide at age 10 and tell me you would not be. I was consistently beat up from 5th-8th grade and developed a temper, but also a very real crying reflex. My father (class of '65) and the previous generations of my family worked construction to pay for life on the farm. When the bullying got to a point he could not tolerate, he enrolled me in boxing courses at the a local youth gym. As I learned to hold my own, he told me "son, never start a fight, but if they threaten you, put them down and put them down hard!" At age 11 one of my constant tormentors jumped me after school and, for the first time, instead of running, I turned and punched him square in the nose. As he fell, I stood over him and every time he moved to get up, I kicked him (I ran home feeling very proud, but my mom still gave me a ration of shit). He did not bother me again until 9th grade, when he and some of his sophomore friends jumped me after a football game at the HS. I took him down and 2 of his friends, then two others grabbed me and held me while he pummeled me until a recent alum, and friend of my deceased brother, stepped in and broke it up. The issue here is, for me, I had learned that if I get picked on, pick back, and harder than they do to you.

In college: The biggest negative about me learning to fight, and win, in Jr. High and High School, is I went from emotional to highly volatile. I became the bully. I remember freshman year going to Sigma Chi and looking to start a fight, I thought it would help me find friends, or at the least, help me to find my place at a school where everyone was, to my mind, much smarter than a guy who got in on legacy status. Add to this, that as I learned that clinical depression was a fact of my life, I hated the idea that I was weak, and would further seek out altercations to get the endorphins going to help end the depressive cycle. Ask 2 for 28, I was not a pleasant, nor even keeled person, in college. I, in fact, started bouncing in college (Half Time anyone) to learn to control my temper. I figured you cannot start a fight when you are tasked with preventing them. Best decision of my life. I learned to keep my anger in check, lost the bully and the bullied child in me.

My point: Part of me says, dude you are a 300+lb man, knock him the F out. He won't mess with you again if you do that. But, I also know that had Moose done that, he would be the bad guy. He would be the pariah of the locker room, the guy who fought a teammate, bringing bad blood into the locker room. Though, that said, other teams might look at him and say, "that is the fighting spirit we want on our line" much as they talk about DeCastro's mean streak. In the end, he would be a bad guy, but a bad guy with a future. On the flip side, going to the "principal" may make his future tougher in the NFL, he will now be the NARC that did not stand up for himself in the physical way expected in this environment. His actions, that I know intellectually, are the right ones, make him a target at this level. His future may be in jeopardy as a player in the NFL simply because he did not do the very thing that would be antithetical to a thinking person. Fight the bully. Win or lose, had he fought he would have had a better chance in this culture of violence.

I respect Moose for his actions. They are the right road as far as the data on the issue. Further, who on the team enabled this, and what does that say about them,  but my upbringing, and life experiences, almost urge me to say fighting would have been better. The victim in these situations never win.

TL;DR I am torn on the issue of bullying after being bullied and being a bully growing up.

[SUBuddha]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=8717.msg73529#msg73529 date=1383618283]
In case you're wondering why this kind of stuff is tolerated: http://m.si.com/3553360/the-wrong-response/

Man, Martin was real soft at Stanford. Buried guys under an avalanche of the softest toilet paper, that guy.

Let me get this straight.  A bunch of "NFL personnel" people are happy to criticize Martin for being "soft" because he didn't  deal with it "in house." 

And these "NFL personnel" people would be ...?  Oh wait, we don't know, because they all SPOKE ON CONDITION OF ANONYMITY!!!

Yeah, that's real stand-up -- tell everyone how they would have handled it like a man [but, hey, no way you can use my name!]  >:(

As for wanting Incognito, rather than Martin, next to you in a bar fight, I've got a better idea:  Don't get involved in bar fights in the first place ...
[/quote]

There in lies the problem. I am going to come clean here, I may get negative feedback, and that is fine, but this is an issue Mrs. Buddha and I have been talking about a lot since this came to light. This may get long and convoluted, but I ask you to hear me out. I teach developmental and evolutionary psychology for a living, so I know the data on bullying from a developmental side quite well (I am actually giving a lecture on that next week). At the same time I have been a bouncer/bartender since my freshman year at LSJU and occasionally have fought in cages and boxing rings since my sophomore year in high school. As an aside, I have been dealing with a ton of crap from the U of A athletic department this year over failing athletes, so I have had a couple Beam and Cokes. "Forgive me if I go astray".

The back story: I was a big kid growing up. By the time I reached 7th grade (7-9 Jr. High in my area) I was 5'2" 150, I hit a major growth spurt in 8th grade and entered 9th grade at 5'9" 154lbs, and then I hit the weight room and started So. year at 6'1" 210. I had bigger boobs than most of the girls in my school in 7th grade, and had been bullied since the 5th grade. In part, this was due to the fact that I am emotional, have your brother commit suicide at age 10 and tell me you would not be. I was consistently beat up from 5th-8th grade and developed a temper, but also a very real crying reflex. My father (class of '65) and the previous generations of my family worked construction to pay for life on the farm. When the bullying got to a point he could not tolerate, he enrolled me in boxing courses at the a local youth gym. As I learned to hold my own, he told me "son, never start a fight, but if they threaten you, put them down and put them down hard!" At age 11 one of my constant tormentors jumped me after school and, for the first time, instead of running, I turned and punched him square in the nose. As he fell, I stood over him and every time he moved to get up, I kicked him (I ran home feeling very proud, but my mom still gave me a ration of shit). He did not bother me again until 9th grade, when he and some of his sophomore friends jumped me after a football game at the HS. I took him down and 2 of his friends, then two others grabbed me and held me while he pummeled me until a recent alum, and friend of my deceased brother, stepped in and broke it up. The issue here is, for me, I had learned that if I get picked on, pick back, and harder than they do to you.

In college: The biggest negative about me learning to fight, and win, in Jr. High and High School, is I went from emotional to highly volatile. I became the bully. I remember freshman year going to Sigma Chi and looking to start a fight, I thought it would help me find friends, or at the least, help me to find my place at a school where everyone was, to my mind, much smarter than a guy who got in on legacy status. Add to this, that as I learned that clinical depression was a fact of my life, I hated the idea that I was weak, and would further seek out altercations to get the endorphins going to help end the depressive cycle. Ask 2 for 28, I was not a pleasant, nor even keeled person, in college. I, in fact, started bouncing in college (Half Time anyone) to learn to control my temper. I figured you cannot start a fight when you are tasked with preventing them. Best decision of my life. I learned to keep my anger in check, lost the bully and the bullied child in me.

My point: Part of me says, dude you are a 300+lb man, knock him the F out. He won't mess with you again if you do that. But, I also know that had Moose done that, he would be the bad guy. He would be the pariah of the locker room, the guy who fought a teammate, bringing bad blood into the locker room. Though, that said, other teams might look at him and say, "that is the fighting spirit we want on our line" much as they talk about DeCastro's mean streak. In the end, he would be a bad guy, but a bad guy with a future. On the flip side, going to the "principal" may make his future tougher in the NFL, he will now be the NARC that did not stand up for himself in the physical way expected in this environment. His actions, that I know intellectually, are the right ones, make him a target at this level. His future may be in jeopardy as a player in the NFL simply because he did not do the very thing that would be antithetical to a thinking person. Fight the bully. Win or lose, had he fought he would have had a better chance in this culture of violence.

I respect Moose for his actions. They are the right road as far as the data on the issue. Further, who on the team enabled this, and what does that say about them,  but my upbringing, and life experiences, almost urge me to say fighting would have been better. The victim in these situations never win.

TL;DR I am torn on the issue of bullying after being bullied and being a bully growing up.

[82 Card]

The comments about being soft, different and not handling it like a man strike me as code words for "gay". Regardless of how Martin reacted, these neanderthals would be using these same words.

From a better time, the "softy" and the guy who's back he guarded:

[82 Card]

The comments about being soft, different and not handling it like a man strike me as code words for "gay". Regardless of how Martin reacted, these neanderthals would be using these same words.

From a better time, the "softy" and the guy who's back he guarded:

[OutsiderFan]

What if an NFL player was being bullied because of his perceived or actual sexual orientation?  Would we see a guy playing the Incognito role refrain from calling the bullied player a "fag" because that is unacceptable when the N-word isn't?  Or given the "meatheads" in the NFL, if a player were suspected to be gay, would we see that word being thrown around by a NFL bully with impunity against a suspected gay football player?

It would seem likely this episode pretty much ensures that no NFL player is going to be openly homosexual.  What a cruel reality for aspiring gay football players.  Not only can you not be who you are in the NFL, you have to hide it and live a lie through high school and college, because if you are suspected as gay, this demonstrates what might happen to you if you are open about it.

But back to the Martin case...  I'm not a trained psychologist, but it sure seems there is a profound difference between someone being physically engaged by a bully and fighting back physically to put one down, and threats and intimidation that as far as the bullied one knows could lead to something much more serious, like home being vandalized, actually fearing for safety all the time.  That manifests itself in excruciating stress and to me, takes bullying to another level that absolutely warrants what some might call "ratting" out the bully.

The reporting suggests Martin did not "go running to his mommy."  He walked out of a situation he couldn't stand, and when a party, in this case his employer, came to him to assess why he did, Martin was honest.  And this brands him as "soft" or "a pussy?"  What, if someone murders your loved one, and you know who did it, the suggested course of action is to refrain from saying who did it because that's being a narc?  Ridiculous.

The only one who has done anything right in the ugly situation is Jonathan Martin.  He tried to go along with the hazing, but when it continued after he was no longer a rookie, it was uncharted territory that made him feel unsafe and unwanted.  Nobody, in any situation should stay in an environment where threatened and unwanted.  This whole he "should have resorted to violence" meme is from the same unevolved place that brands people with mental health issues as weak.  It's just simply unacceptable for us to condone violence as a solution to bullying and dismiss mental illness as just being "soft" when the knowledge now exists for us to know better.

Maybe bullying doesn't go away because too many people say ratting out the bully makes someone look weak?  To me, this is the same dynamic that is created when those experiments are done to see how people act when put in charge of another person in isolation for too long.  Invariably, the one in power slowly de-humanizes the prisoner and before you know it, you've got Abu Ghraib prison.  And we see it today with NSA spying, as it has been made clear the agency has been allowed to do whatever it wants, and so just keeps pushing further and further, minus any limitations or  consequences for doing anything.  We simply must demonstrate there are limits to behavior we will not tolerate, and create regulations and social norms to foster the behavior we want, or we will continue getting the behavior we say we abhor.

I didn't initially see Edward Snowden as a hero, more of a self-promoter, but now it is clear he is a hero, because he has shined a light on behavior that if left unchecked, could have done much more harm to everyone.  He took a courageous leap to "rat out" the most powerful country (bully) on Earth.  To me, in his own world, Jonathan Martin is a lot like Edward Snowden, and should be celebrated because look how many cases of bullying won't start in the future because even a 6-5 315 NFL football player can be bullied, and even he can stand up to it by simply calling it out. 

[OutsiderFan]

What if an NFL player was being bullied because of his perceived or actual sexual orientation?  Would we see a guy playing the Incognito role refrain from calling the bullied player a "fag" because that is unacceptable when the N-word isn't?  Or given the "meatheads" in the NFL, if a player were suspected to be gay, would we see that word being thrown around by a NFL bully with impunity against a suspected gay football player?

It would seem likely this episode pretty much ensures that no NFL player is going to be openly homosexual.  What a cruel reality for aspiring gay football players.  Not only can you not be who you are in the NFL, you have to hide it and live a lie through high school and college, because if you are suspected as gay, this demonstrates what might happen to you if you are open about it.

But back to the Martin case...  I'm not a trained psychologist, but it sure seems there is a profound difference between someone being physically engaged by a bully and fighting back physically to put one down, and threats and intimidation that as far as the bullied one knows could lead to something much more serious, like home being vandalized, actually fearing for safety all the time.  That manifests itself in excruciating stress and to me, takes bullying to another level that absolutely warrants what some might call "ratting" out the bully.

The reporting suggests Martin did not "go running to his mommy."  He walked out of a situation he couldn't stand, and when a party, in this case his employer, came to him to assess why he did, Martin was honest.  And this brands him as "soft" or "a pussy?"  What, if someone murders your loved one, and you know who did it, the suggested course of action is to refrain from saying who did it because that's being a narc?  Ridiculous.

The only one who has done anything right in the ugly situation is Jonathan Martin.  He tried to go along with the hazing, but when it continued after he was no longer a rookie, it was uncharted territory that made him feel unsafe and unwanted.  Nobody, in any situation should stay in an environment where threatened and unwanted.  This whole he "should have resorted to violence" meme is from the same unevolved place that brands people with mental health issues as weak.  It's just simply unacceptable for us to condone violence as a solution to bullying and dismiss mental illness as just being "soft" when the knowledge now exists for us to know better.

Maybe bullying doesn't go away because too many people say ratting out the bully makes someone look weak?  To me, this is the same dynamic that is created when those experiments are done to see how people act when put in charge of another person in isolation for too long.  Invariably, the one in power slowly de-humanizes the prisoner and before you know it, you've got Abu Ghraib prison.  And we see it today with NSA spying, as it has been made clear the agency has been allowed to do whatever it wants, and so just keeps pushing further and further, minus any limitations or  consequences for doing anything.  We simply must demonstrate there are limits to behavior we will not tolerate, and create regulations and social norms to foster the behavior we want, or we will continue getting the behavior we say we abhor.

I didn't initially see Edward Snowden as a hero, more of a self-promoter, but now it is clear he is a hero, because he has shined a light on behavior that if left unchecked, could have done much more harm to everyone.  He took a courageous leap to "rat out" the most powerful country (bully) on Earth.  To me, in his own world, Jonathan Martin is a lot like Edward Snowden, and should be celebrated because look how many cases of bullying won't start in the future because even a 6-5 315 NFL football player can be bullied, and even he can stand up to it by simply calling it out. 

[Farm93]

Fight or Walk -
I know the football culture says stand your ground and fight, but I think it takes more courage to get up and walk away.  I am rather proud of Martin for doing the right thing.  It may not be the right thing for his NFL career, but it is the right thing.

What happens if you go the other way?  No need to look very far away for the answer.

http://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/arti...955383.php

You risk getting a hospital visit and a criminal record!

[Farm93]

Fight or Walk -
I know the football culture says stand your ground and fight, but I think it takes more courage to get up and walk away.  I am rather proud of Martin for doing the right thing.  It may not be the right thing for his NFL career, but it is the right thing.

What happens if you go the other way?  No need to look very far away for the answer.

http://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/arti...955383.php

You risk getting a hospital visit and a criminal record!

[Trevmiesterj]

As a football fan and a youth football coach, this incident has made me think deeply about players, team psyche and the human condition.  The posts here on the Cardboard are relevant and thoughtful and take this matter beyond some of the current media scramble. 

Here is a quote from the well written USA Today article by Brent Schrotenboer.  I think it speaks to SUBuddha's excellent post about his personal experience with bullying and how it shaped him.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl...n/3439819/

In previous interviews with reporters, Incognito and his father indicated other students ridiculed him for being overweight as a child, especially during sixth grade in Glendale, Ariz. His father, Richie Sr., a Vietnam veteran, told NFL.com that he gave his son advice: "If you let anyone give you (expletive) now, you're going to take (expletive) your entire life."

It's a common cycle for victims of various kinds of abuse, including bullying. Those who suffered often repeat the abuse themselves, especially when they accumulate power over others when they get older.

What I find interesting is that while Incognito was most responsible for the intimidation, hazing and other negative behaviors perpetuated on Martin, I would suspect this wasn't a situation of man vs man. 

The entire offensive line got up from that table the day that Martin slammed down his tray and walked out.  If a young player was up against the entire Dolphin O-line and other veterans in the inner circle, it would be a formidable entity to stand up to. 

Couple that with a player that sticks outs because of their schooling and intelligence and they become an obvious and constant mark to pick on.  Players like Jonathan Martin are different because of their intelligence.  And having a keen intellect AND graduating from an institution like Stanford or Harvard brings with it an unspoken belief that these players have had an easy, pampered life and fit into this hazy category of "soft".

So they have little choice but to conform, endure abuse or be cast out.

[Trevmiesterj]

As a football fan and a youth football coach, this incident has made me think deeply about players, team psyche and the human condition.  The posts here on the Cardboard are relevant and thoughtful and take this matter beyond some of the current media scramble. 

Here is a quote from the well written USA Today article by Brent Schrotenboer.  I think it speaks to SUBuddha's excellent post about his personal experience with bullying and how it shaped him.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl...n/3439819/

In previous interviews with reporters, Incognito and his father indicated other students ridiculed him for being overweight as a child, especially during sixth grade in Glendale, Ariz. His father, Richie Sr., a Vietnam veteran, told NFL.com that he gave his son advice: "If you let anyone give you (expletive) now, you're going to take (expletive) your entire life."

It's a common cycle for victims of various kinds of abuse, including bullying. Those who suffered often repeat the abuse themselves, especially when they accumulate power over others when they get older.

What I find interesting is that while Incognito was most responsible for the intimidation, hazing and other negative behaviors perpetuated on Martin, I would suspect this wasn't a situation of man vs man. 

The entire offensive line got up from that table the day that Martin slammed down his tray and walked out.  If a young player was up against the entire Dolphin O-line and other veterans in the inner circle, it would be a formidable entity to stand up to. 

Couple that with a player that sticks outs because of their schooling and intelligence and they become an obvious and constant mark to pick on.  Players like Jonathan Martin are different because of their intelligence.  And having a keen intellect AND graduating from an institution like Stanford or Harvard brings with it an unspoken belief that these players have had an easy, pampered life and fit into this hazy category of "soft".

So they have little choice but to conform, endure abuse or be cast out.

[Kathy]

Players like Jonathan Martin are different because of their intelligence.  And having a keen intellect AND graduating from an institution like Stanford or Harvard brings with it an unspoken belief that these players have had an easy, pampered life and fit into this hazy category of "soft".

The view from Harvard grad Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former Seattle Seahawks linebacker:
http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg...956081.php

[Kathy]

Players like Jonathan Martin are different because of their intelligence.  And having a keen intellect AND graduating from an institution like Stanford or Harvard brings with it an unspoken belief that these players have had an easy, pampered life and fit into this hazy category of "soft".

The view from Harvard grad Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former Seattle Seahawks linebacker:
http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg...956081.php

[76lsjumb]

[quote author=Trevmiesterj link=topic=8717.msg73551#msg73551 date=1383667558]
Players like Jonathan Martin are different because of their intelligence.  And having a keen intellect AND graduating from an institution like Stanford or Harvard brings with it an unspoken belief that these players have had an easy, pampered life and fit into this hazy category of "soft".

The view from Harvard grad Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former Seattle Seahawks linebacker:
http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg...956081.php
[/quote]

Wholly apart from the ramifications of this story on the personal level of the players involved [which are obviously very serious], as a Stanford fan, the emergence of this storyline, if it gains much traction, strikes me as particularly problematic for our football recruiting.

[76lsjumb]

[quote author=Trevmiesterj link=topic=8717.msg73551#msg73551 date=1383667558]
Players like Jonathan Martin are different because of their intelligence.  And having a keen intellect AND graduating from an institution like Stanford or Harvard brings with it an unspoken belief that these players have had an easy, pampered life and fit into this hazy category of "soft".

The view from Harvard grad Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former Seattle Seahawks linebacker:
http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg...956081.php
[/quote]

Wholly apart from the ramifications of this story on the personal level of the players involved [which are obviously very serious], as a Stanford fan, the emergence of this storyline, if it gains much traction, strikes me as particularly problematic for our football recruiting.

[stupac2]

Wholly apart from the ramifications of this story on the personal level of the players involved [which are obviously very serious], as a Stanford fan, the emergence of this storyline, if it gains much traction, strikes me as particularly problematic for our football recruiting.

I doubt it will have any effect whatsoever on our recruiting.

[stupac2]

Wholly apart from the ramifications of this story on the personal level of the players involved [which are obviously very serious], as a Stanford fan, the emergence of this storyline, if it gains much traction, strikes me as particularly problematic for our football recruiting.

I doubt it will have any effect whatsoever on our recruiting.

[oman]

I thought the whole "beat up your partner for too much soy sauce and stealing your underwear" thing was much worse for recruiting. 

[oman]

I thought the whole "beat up your partner for too much soy sauce and stealing your underwear" thing was much worse for recruiting. 

[FarmBoy]

I can think of far worse negative PR that Stanford football has overcome, but I won't bother reposting here. Some things are best left in the past. I think Shaw's points are the most relevant: Stanford currently has some very successful players in the NFL and that's only increasing with every draft class.

It really sucks for Martin that he (and Miami management) couldn't find a way to resolve this issue without having to resort to this kind of visible action. Resorting to physical confrontation would have been the wrong choice (although in some ways easier to recover his reputation over if it had come to that, though i wouldn't be surprised if Incognito has more experience and is therefore more dangerous.) Nor could Martin remain in that atmosphere and continue to be abused. But it's easy to believe that this is going to be a hard reputation for Martin to overcome, unless he joins a team with a built in network (Colts?) I can imagine it will be hard for him to make friends in most locker rooms after this. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[FarmBoy]

I can think of far worse negative PR that Stanford football has overcome, but I won't bother reposting here. Some things are best left in the past. I think Shaw's points are the most relevant: Stanford currently has some very successful players in the NFL and that's only increasing with every draft class.

It really sucks for Martin that he (and Miami management) couldn't find a way to resolve this issue without having to resort to this kind of visible action. Resorting to physical confrontation would have been the wrong choice (although in some ways easier to recover his reputation over if it had come to that, though i wouldn't be surprised if Incognito has more experience and is therefore more dangerous.) Nor could Martin remain in that atmosphere and continue to be abused. But it's easy to believe that this is going to be a hard reputation for Martin to overcome, unless he joins a team with a built in network (Colts?) I can imagine it will be hard for him to make friends in most locker rooms after this. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[terry]

The positive publicity for Stanford from Luck, Sherman, Baldwin, DeCastro, et al. overwhelms any potential negative publicity of this situation. And in any event, this story is quickly becoming a story about Incognito, not Martin.

[terry]

The positive publicity for Stanford from Luck, Sherman, Baldwin, DeCastro, et al. overwhelms any potential negative publicity of this situation. And in any event, this story is quickly becoming a story about Incognito, not Martin.

[2 for 2028]

[quote author=76lsjumb link=topic=8717.msg73558#msg73558 date=1383670958]Wholly apart from the ramifications of this story on the personal level of the players involved [which are obviously very serious], as a Stanford fan, the emergence of this storyline, if it gains much traction, strikes me as particularly problematic for our football recruiting.

I doubt it will have any effect whatsoever on our recruiting.
[/quote]

I agree.  The irony here is that, according to Shaw, he won't recruit a kid unless his coach says that he's the toughest guy on his team.

[2 for 2028]

[quote author=76lsjumb link=topic=8717.msg73558#msg73558 date=1383670958]Wholly apart from the ramifications of this story on the personal level of the players involved [which are obviously very serious], as a Stanford fan, the emergence of this storyline, if it gains much traction, strikes me as particularly problematic for our football recruiting.

I doubt it will have any effect whatsoever on our recruiting.
[/quote]

I agree.  The irony here is that, according to Shaw, he won't recruit a kid unless his coach says that he's the toughest guy on his team.

[Trevmiesterj]

[quote author=Trevmiesterj link=topic=8717.msg73551#msg73551 date=1383667558]
Players like Jonathan Martin are different because of their intelligence.  And having a keen intellect AND graduating from an institution like Stanford or Harvard brings with it an unspoken belief that these players have had an easy, pampered life and fit into this hazy category of "soft".

The view from Harvard grad Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former Seattle Seahawks linebacker:
http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg...956081.php
[/quote]

Kacyvenski seems to confirm this type of labeling.  I hadn't seen that story but was reading another and came upon this quote from him.  Apparently he also played for the Rams and with Incognito.

Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former Rams linebacker, considered Incognito an upbeat prankster in the locker room. “But I can see how things could get out of hand at times, though I’ve never seen anything this vicious,” he said, referring to the allegations involving Martin. Incognito’s sense of humor “revolved around ribbing guys,” Kacyvenski said. “If you live it day to day to day, you could reach a breaking point.”

[Trevmiesterj]

[quote author=Trevmiesterj link=topic=8717.msg73551#msg73551 date=1383667558]
Players like Jonathan Martin are different because of their intelligence.  And having a keen intellect AND graduating from an institution like Stanford or Harvard brings with it an unspoken belief that these players have had an easy, pampered life and fit into this hazy category of "soft".

The view from Harvard grad Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former Seattle Seahawks linebacker:
http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg...956081.php
[/quote]

Kacyvenski seems to confirm this type of labeling.  I hadn't seen that story but was reading another and came upon this quote from him.  Apparently he also played for the Rams and with Incognito.

Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former Rams linebacker, considered Incognito an upbeat prankster in the locker room. “But I can see how things could get out of hand at times, though I’ve never seen anything this vicious,” he said, referring to the allegations involving Martin. Incognito’s sense of humor “revolved around ribbing guys,” Kacyvenski said. “If you live it day to day to day, you could reach a breaking point.”

[Hey]

I'm behind Martin on this one 100%.  He tried for a year and a half to adapt to this dismal situation.  He realized nothing was going to change, in fact, only get worse.  Who could he ask for help?  Incognito was already on the Dolphins "Leadership Council". 

It will look really bad to some recruits, it will look really good to other recruits.  Hopefully society has evolved enough where people will appreciate how courageous Martin is to do what he did.  Took a lot of guts to take a stand like he did. 

On a side note, as much as I dislike Incognito, I hope he grows from this too.  I doubt it, but there's always a chance.  He's already used up about seven or eight of his lives.

[Hey]

I'm behind Martin on this one 100%.  He tried for a year and a half to adapt to this dismal situation.  He realized nothing was going to change, in fact, only get worse.  Who could he ask for help?  Incognito was already on the Dolphins "Leadership Council". 

It will look really bad to some recruits, it will look really good to other recruits.  Hopefully society has evolved enough where people will appreciate how courageous Martin is to do what he did.  Took a lot of guts to take a stand like he did. 

On a side note, as much as I dislike Incognito, I hope he grows from this too.  I doubt it, but there's always a chance.  He's already used up about seven or eight of his lives.

[76lsjumb]

The positive publicity for Stanford from Luck, Sherman, Baldwin, DeCastro, et al. overwhelms any potential negative publicity of this situation. And in any event, this story is quickly becoming a story about Incognito, not Martin.

Just to make clear:  The storyline that concerned me has nothing to do with Martin personally or what he did here -- based on what I've read/heard, his actions appear entirely justifiable and correct to me, and I have very little, if any, worry that this specific situation will create a recruiting issue. 

The storyline I was referring to is the perception that a degree from a highly-ranked academic institution is considered a negative in the NFL that could make your life tangibly less enjoyable on a daily basis and, in extreme circumstances, end up in a situation like this.  If that is really the case -- and if it is something that isn't already sufficiently well-known among prospective NFL players [i.e., "old news"] such that it has already been factored into the decision-making process for recruits -- it just strikes me as a potential problem, not just for Stanford, but for a number of schools.

Is it unreasonable to think that an elite, smart HS player who is good enough to legitimately anticipate having a long NFL career [say, 10 years] might consider that factor, even as part of his "40-year decision"?  Maybe so, but I'm not as confident of that fact as others appear to be.  Hope I'm wrong.

[76lsjumb]

The positive publicity for Stanford from Luck, Sherman, Baldwin, DeCastro, et al. overwhelms any potential negative publicity of this situation. And in any event, this story is quickly becoming a story about Incognito, not Martin.

Just to make clear:  The storyline that concerned me has nothing to do with Martin personally or what he did here -- based on what I've read/heard, his actions appear entirely justifiable and correct to me, and I have very little, if any, worry that this specific situation will create a recruiting issue. 

The storyline I was referring to is the perception that a degree from a highly-ranked academic institution is considered a negative in the NFL that could make your life tangibly less enjoyable on a daily basis and, in extreme circumstances, end up in a situation like this.  If that is really the case -- and if it is something that isn't already sufficiently well-known among prospective NFL players [i.e., "old news"] such that it has already been factored into the decision-making process for recruits -- it just strikes me as a potential problem, not just for Stanford, but for a number of schools.

Is it unreasonable to think that an elite, smart HS player who is good enough to legitimately anticipate having a long NFL career [say, 10 years] might consider that factor, even as part of his "40-year decision"?  Maybe so, but I'm not as confident of that fact as others appear to be.  Hope I'm wrong.

[fullmetal]

[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=8717.msg73559#msg73559 date=1383672041]
[quote author=76lsjumb link=topic=8717.msg73558#msg73558 date=1383670958]Wholly apart from the ramifications of this story on the personal level of the players involved [which are obviously very serious], as a Stanford fan, the emergence of this storyline, if it gains much traction, strikes me as particularly problematic for our football recruiting.

I doubt it will have any effect whatsoever on our recruiting.
[/quote]

I agree.  The irony here is that, according to Shaw, he won't recruit a kid unless his coach says that he's the toughest guy on his team.
[/quote]

Tough isn't defined by willingness to throw punches.

[fullmetal]

[quote author=stupac2 link=topic=8717.msg73559#msg73559 date=1383672041]
[quote author=76lsjumb link=topic=8717.msg73558#msg73558 date=1383670958]Wholly apart from the ramifications of this story on the personal level of the players involved [which are obviously very serious], as a Stanford fan, the emergence of this storyline, if it gains much traction, strikes me as particularly problematic for our football recruiting.

I doubt it will have any effect whatsoever on our recruiting.
[/quote]

I agree.  The irony here is that, according to Shaw, he won't recruit a kid unless his coach says that he's the toughest guy on his team.
[/quote]

Tough isn't defined by willingness to throw punches.

[oman]

The idea that a degree from a great university somehow puts one at a disadvantage seems silly to me.  All of us who have left the Bay Area have been teased about being the Stanford or Ivy League guy.  However most of us don't have the advantage of being able to crack the teaser across the head now and again. 

Everyone gets teased for something or other and we learn to adapt to it or deflect it.  I think any attempt to label this as based on his school is simply a roundabout way for us to throw around the fact that we are elite.  If Martin was harassed, it surely had a whole lot more to do with his own personality and his method of deflection than it did on his alma mater.

In short, I doubt there is any evidence that this would be different story if Martin came from Nebraska or Rutgers or Florida State. This is about veterans harassing new guys, and taking it to extreme. 

And it could be about Martin having an eggshell skull or not liking his situation.  I'm a management side employment lawyer, and I have a good degree of cynicism about all the parties involved.  And a firm belief that every every unhappy football team is unhappy in its own (unique) way.

[oman]

The idea that a degree from a great university somehow puts one at a disadvantage seems silly to me.  All of us who have left the Bay Area have been teased about being the Stanford or Ivy League guy.  However most of us don't have the advantage of being able to crack the teaser across the head now and again. 

Everyone gets teased for something or other and we learn to adapt to it or deflect it.  I think any attempt to label this as based on his school is simply a roundabout way for us to throw around the fact that we are elite.  If Martin was harassed, it surely had a whole lot more to do with his own personality and his method of deflection than it did on his alma mater.

In short, I doubt there is any evidence that this would be different story if Martin came from Nebraska or Rutgers or Florida State. This is about veterans harassing new guys, and taking it to extreme. 

And it could be about Martin having an eggshell skull or not liking his situation.  I'm a management side employment lawyer, and I have a good degree of cynicism about all the parties involved.  And a firm belief that every every unhappy football team is unhappy in its own (unique) way.

[Roberton3]

If Martin was harassed, it surely had a whole lot more to do with his own personality and his method of deflection than it did on his alma mater.

IF he was harassed?  It's pretty damn clear he was harassed.  And the rest of that sentence does a great job of blaming the victim -- while your entire email says nothing about the possibility that this was entirely Incogito's fault (which admittedly is just a possibility at this point, but it's a possibility that seems increasingly likely the more information we get).

[Roberton3]

If Martin was harassed, it surely had a whole lot more to do with his own personality and his method of deflection than it did on his alma mater.

IF he was harassed?  It's pretty damn clear he was harassed.  And the rest of that sentence does a great job of blaming the victim -- while your entire email says nothing about the possibility that this was entirely Incogito's fault (which admittedly is just a possibility at this point, but it's a possibility that seems increasingly likely the more information we get).

[oman]

Tough isn't defined by willingness to throw punches.

And y'all thought you could make it to your grave without every being reminded of this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sraL5ERiwZ4

[oman]

Tough isn't defined by willingness to throw punches.

And y'all thought you could make it to your grave without every being reminded of this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sraL5ERiwZ4