[Cardinal96]

Let me guess.  You aren't a professional hockey player?

Do you have a job where you routinely shower with, travel with, and engage in tackling drills with you coworkers?

I am not a professional hockey player or professional nfl player.  But I will guarantee you if you ask Roger Goodell what a NFL GM should do if a player approaches him complaining of bullying and harassment, the answer is not to tell the player to punch the bully.  Step back and think, really think, about how absurd that is.  You experience workplace harassment and bullying, you report it to your superior and they tell you to toughen up and punch the bully.

There are so many things wrong with that and I don't care if it is an NFL team or Wal-Mart.  That response condones the bullying behavior.  It puts the onus on the victim to fix the situation.  And how does he do that exactly?  A fight with Richie won't solve it.  First, it is criminal (assault and/or battery).  Second, it isn't just Richie Incognito.  Richie's bullying was clearly condoned by his teammates and, apparently, his coaches.

I agree with everyone that his is harassment, Martin was correct, Incogito should be fired, etc. but a boardroom is not a call center is not an NFL players lounge is not an oil rig.  An NFL GM telling an offensive lineman to punch another player is akin to a call center manager telling one of his employees to tell the harasser "no!".    Both are arguably a dereliction of duty but one clearly is not as shocking. 

(Punching another employee is grounds for immediate termination at most companies.  I'm sure that is a bit less rigid on football teams.

I am truly lost at what point you are trying to make here.  Are we in bizarro world where US criminal and civil laws don't apply to US football teams?  A NFL GM telling a player to punch another player is wrong.  Full stop.  That is advocating criminal behavior to respond to bullying and harassment.  It also ignores the duty on the part of the employer to try and maintain a workplace free of harassment.

Really step back and think about what you are saying here.  You are trying to rationalize behavior that is unsupportable.

[Cardinal96]

Let me guess.  You aren't a professional hockey player?

Do you have a job where you routinely shower with, travel with, and engage in tackling drills with you coworkers?

I am not a professional hockey player or professional nfl player.  But I will guarantee you if you ask Roger Goodell what a NFL GM should do if a player approaches him complaining of bullying and harassment, the answer is not to tell the player to punch the bully.  Step back and think, really think, about how absurd that is.  You experience workplace harassment and bullying, you report it to your superior and they tell you to toughen up and punch the bully.

There are so many things wrong with that and I don't care if it is an NFL team or Wal-Mart.  That response condones the bullying behavior.  It puts the onus on the victim to fix the situation.  And how does he do that exactly?  A fight with Richie won't solve it.  First, it is criminal (assault and/or battery).  Second, it isn't just Richie Incognito.  Richie's bullying was clearly condoned by his teammates and, apparently, his coaches.

I agree with everyone that his is harassment, Martin was correct, Incogito should be fired, etc. but a boardroom is not a call center is not an NFL players lounge is not an oil rig.  An NFL GM telling an offensive lineman to punch another player is akin to a call center manager telling one of his employees to tell the harasser "no!".    Both are arguably a dereliction of duty but one clearly is not as shocking. 

(Punching another employee is grounds for immediate termination at most companies.  I'm sure that is a bit less rigid on football teams.

I am truly lost at what point you are trying to make here.  Are we in bizarro world where US criminal and civil laws don't apply to US football teams?  A NFL GM telling a player to punch another player is wrong.  Full stop.  That is advocating criminal behavior to respond to bullying and harassment.  It also ignores the duty on the part of the employer to try and maintain a workplace free of harassment.

Really step back and think about what you are saying here.  You are trying to rationalize behavior that is unsupportable.

[oman]

I am not a professional hockey player or professional nfl player.  But I will guarantee you if you ask Roger Goodell what a NFL GM should do if a player approaches him complaining of bullying and harassment, the answer is not to tell the player to punch the bully.

Oh, seriously, because I was clearly advocating that this should be SOP.  I was clearly advocating a requirement of punching before someone could bring a harassment suit.

  Step back and think, really think, about how absurd that is.  You experience workplace harassment and bullying, you report it to your superior and they tell you to toughen up and punch the bully.

I was focusing on the absolute absurdity of you comparing the working environment of NFL players with your own working environment. 

There are so many things wrong with that and I don't care if it is an NFL team or Wal-Mart.

Well, you should because legally (both civilly and criminally) it's going to have a big effect on any case.  If the response had been "Incognito is going to keep this up until you beat his ass on the field.  The next time you are out there, destroy him and he will stop."

Assuming there were no prior complaints, the above would not be surprising in a competitive, physical sport environment.  Would it be bad advice?  Yeah.  But this would not be remotely defensible in a WalMart scenario.  If the GM had one or two people who could testify that pushing back or punching Incognito forced him to back down. 

That response condones the bullying behavior.  It puts the onus on the victim to fix the situation.

There is almost always an onus on the victim to fix the situation.  The onus if for the victim to show that it is unwanted.  The onus in certain situations might well be for the victim to complain or protest or ask the harasser to stop.  These were fellow players and the standard on harassment is different if it would have been harassment by a coach or manager.  (This ignores whatever union contract provisions might apply. 

I am truly lost at what point you are trying to make here.

It's easy.  Your comparison of your work environment to the work environment of an NFL team is silly.

Really step back and think about what you are saying here.  You are trying to rationalize behavior that is unsupportable.

I'm not remotely rationalizing the behavior.  I am saying that all behavior has to be viewed in its context. 

[oman]

I am not a professional hockey player or professional nfl player.  But I will guarantee you if you ask Roger Goodell what a NFL GM should do if a player approaches him complaining of bullying and harassment, the answer is not to tell the player to punch the bully.

Oh, seriously, because I was clearly advocating that this should be SOP.  I was clearly advocating a requirement of punching before someone could bring a harassment suit.

  Step back and think, really think, about how absurd that is.  You experience workplace harassment and bullying, you report it to your superior and they tell you to toughen up and punch the bully.

I was focusing on the absolute absurdity of you comparing the working environment of NFL players with your own working environment. 

There are so many things wrong with that and I don't care if it is an NFL team or Wal-Mart.

Well, you should because legally (both civilly and criminally) it's going to have a big effect on any case.  If the response had been "Incognito is going to keep this up until you beat his ass on the field.  The next time you are out there, destroy him and he will stop."

Assuming there were no prior complaints, the above would not be surprising in a competitive, physical sport environment.  Would it be bad advice?  Yeah.  But this would not be remotely defensible in a WalMart scenario.  If the GM had one or two people who could testify that pushing back or punching Incognito forced him to back down. 

That response condones the bullying behavior.  It puts the onus on the victim to fix the situation.

There is almost always an onus on the victim to fix the situation.  The onus if for the victim to show that it is unwanted.  The onus in certain situations might well be for the victim to complain or protest or ask the harasser to stop.  These were fellow players and the standard on harassment is different if it would have been harassment by a coach or manager.  (This ignores whatever union contract provisions might apply. 

I am truly lost at what point you are trying to make here.

It's easy.  Your comparison of your work environment to the work environment of an NFL team is silly.

Really step back and think about what you are saying here.  You are trying to rationalize behavior that is unsupportable.

I'm not remotely rationalizing the behavior.  I am saying that all behavior has to be viewed in its context. 

[Cardinal96]

I was focusing on the absolute absurdity of you comparing the working environment of NFL players with your own working environment.

I never claimed that a corporate working environment is the same working environment as an NFL team.  However, I absolutely claim that repeated bullying and harrassing behavior has no place on an NFL team just like it has no place in a corporate working environment.  The NFL is not an island.  US laws still apply to the workplace.  NFL policies towards creating a harassment-free workplace still apply. 

Well, you should because legally (both civilly and criminally) it's going to have a big effect on any case.  If the response had been "Incognito is going to keep this up until you beat his ass on the field.  The next time you are out there, destroy him and he will stop."

Assuming there were no prior complaints, the above would not be surprising in a competitive, physical sport environment.  Would it be bad advice?  Yeah.  But this would not be remotely defensible in a WalMart scenario.  If the GM had one or two people who could testify that pushing back or punching Incognito forced him to back down.

A lot of assumptions there.  We don't have all the facts right now so conjecture about a legal case is silly. 

There is almost always an onus on the victim to fix the situation.  The onus if for the victim to show that it is unwanted.  The onus in certain situations might well be for the victim to complain or protest or ask the harasser to stop.  These were fellow players and the standard on harassment is different if it would have been harassment by a coach or manager.  (This ignores whatever union contract provisions might apply. 

Actually, no.  There is not always an onus on the victim to fix the situation.  The onus is on the victim to report alleged bullying and demand the right to a workplace free of harassment.  The more we learn about this case, the more we understand why Jonathan Martin left the situation.  Bullying was condoned by his teammates and appeared to have support from coaches and the GM.

I'm not remotely rationalizing the behavior.  I am saying that all behavior has to be viewed in its context.

In what context, is repeated harassment and bullying acceptable?  When it is ok to use racial epithets, threaten violence against someone's family and threaten to kill someone, particularly when the recipient didn't welcome this behavior?  I am all ears.

[Cardinal96]

I was focusing on the absolute absurdity of you comparing the working environment of NFL players with your own working environment.

I never claimed that a corporate working environment is the same working environment as an NFL team.  However, I absolutely claim that repeated bullying and harrassing behavior has no place on an NFL team just like it has no place in a corporate working environment.  The NFL is not an island.  US laws still apply to the workplace.  NFL policies towards creating a harassment-free workplace still apply. 

Well, you should because legally (both civilly and criminally) it's going to have a big effect on any case.  If the response had been "Incognito is going to keep this up until you beat his ass on the field.  The next time you are out there, destroy him and he will stop."

Assuming there were no prior complaints, the above would not be surprising in a competitive, physical sport environment.  Would it be bad advice?  Yeah.  But this would not be remotely defensible in a WalMart scenario.  If the GM had one or two people who could testify that pushing back or punching Incognito forced him to back down.

A lot of assumptions there.  We don't have all the facts right now so conjecture about a legal case is silly. 

There is almost always an onus on the victim to fix the situation.  The onus if for the victim to show that it is unwanted.  The onus in certain situations might well be for the victim to complain or protest or ask the harasser to stop.  These were fellow players and the standard on harassment is different if it would have been harassment by a coach or manager.  (This ignores whatever union contract provisions might apply. 

Actually, no.  There is not always an onus on the victim to fix the situation.  The onus is on the victim to report alleged bullying and demand the right to a workplace free of harassment.  The more we learn about this case, the more we understand why Jonathan Martin left the situation.  Bullying was condoned by his teammates and appeared to have support from coaches and the GM.

I'm not remotely rationalizing the behavior.  I am saying that all behavior has to be viewed in its context.

In what context, is repeated harassment and bullying acceptable?  When it is ok to use racial epithets, threaten violence against someone's family and threaten to kill someone, particularly when the recipient didn't welcome this behavior?  I am all ears.

[76lsjumb]

After what I heard this morning from the Miami players interviewed on ESPN, and even acknowledging that there are probably a lot of facts still to emerge, if the Dolphins never win another game, you can count me among those who would be smiling.


Oh, one other thing:  The Shermanator notwithstanding, I'll bet Skip Bayless is better at life than Richie Incognito.

[76lsjumb]

After what I heard this morning from the Miami players interviewed on ESPN, and even acknowledging that there are probably a lot of facts still to emerge, if the Dolphins never win another game, you can count me among those who would be smiling.


Oh, one other thing:  The Shermanator notwithstanding, I'll bet Skip Bayless is better at life than Richie Incognito.

[rudruff]

Well, we have gotten to the GM level then.

Awaiting the picture of the smoking crater that will be Dolphins HQ soon.

Will Martin's settlement count against the salary cap?

What if it exceeds it?

[rudruff]

Well, we have gotten to the GM level then.

Awaiting the picture of the smoking crater that will be Dolphins HQ soon.

Will Martin's settlement count against the salary cap?

What if it exceeds it?

[Spiny_Norman]

This article had me from the headline - "Declaring a war on warrior culture."  Big props to the author Brian Phillips.

Warriors make war on warriors. There's no room for crying in this game. You have a problem, you handle it on the field. Handle it as a man. Go down swinging. I hear you, NFL, and that's why I'm not here to move you or persuade you. If you have a penis and feelings, you'd better cut one of them off. I'm here to start a fight.

Because this — this idea that Jonathan Martin is a weakling for seeking emotional help — this is some room-temperature faux-macho alpha-pansy nonsense, and I am here to beat it bloody and leave it on the ground.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9939...ng-scandal

[Spiny_Norman]

This article had me from the headline - "Declaring a war on warrior culture."  Big props to the author Brian Phillips.

Warriors make war on warriors. There's no room for crying in this game. You have a problem, you handle it on the field. Handle it as a man. Go down swinging. I hear you, NFL, and that's why I'm not here to move you or persuade you. If you have a penis and feelings, you'd better cut one of them off. I'm here to start a fight.

Because this — this idea that Jonathan Martin is a weakling for seeking emotional help — this is some room-temperature faux-macho alpha-pansy nonsense, and I am here to beat it bloody and leave it on the ground.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9939...ng-scandal

[fullmetal]

Great article.

[fullmetal]

Great article.

[Hulk01]

Let more of the world know that Stanford stands behind Moose. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...=1&theater

I'd love if you'd just hit like or make a comment or retweet it to others, or all three.  Would love to let the world--and Moose--know that we are family.

Shout out to Doug Baldwin and Zach Ertz for doing just that, and in their own, sincere, unmanufactured and strong words. .

[Hulk01]

Let more of the world know that Stanford stands behind Moose. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...=1&theater

I'd love if you'd just hit like or make a comment or retweet it to others, or all three.  Would love to let the world--and Moose--know that we are family.

Shout out to Doug Baldwin and Zach Ertz for doing just that, and in their own, sincere, unmanufactured and strong words. .

[stupac2]

This article had me from the headline - "Declaring a war on warrior culture."  Big props to the author Brian Phillips.

Warriors make war on warriors. There's no room for crying in this game. You have a problem, you handle it on the field. Handle it as a man. Go down swinging. I hear you, NFL, and that's why I'm not here to move you or persuade you. If you have a penis and feelings, you'd better cut one of them off. I'm here to start a fight.

Because this — this idea that Jonathan Martin is a weakling for seeking emotional help — this is some room-temperature faux-macho alpha-pansy nonsense, and I am here to beat it bloody and leave it on the ground.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9939...ng-scandal

Grantland's writing on this has been by far the best I've seen. The other article was great too.

[stupac2]

This article had me from the headline - "Declaring a war on warrior culture."  Big props to the author Brian Phillips.

Warriors make war on warriors. There's no room for crying in this game. You have a problem, you handle it on the field. Handle it as a man. Go down swinging. I hear you, NFL, and that's why I'm not here to move you or persuade you. If you have a penis and feelings, you'd better cut one of them off. I'm here to start a fight.

Because this — this idea that Jonathan Martin is a weakling for seeking emotional help — this is some room-temperature faux-macho alpha-pansy nonsense, and I am here to beat it bloody and leave it on the ground.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9939...ng-scandal

Grantland's writing on this has been by far the best I've seen. The other article was great too.

[Cardinal96]

After what I heard this morning from the Miami players interviewed on ESPN, and even acknowledging that there are probably a lot of facts still to emerge, if the Dolphins never win another game, you can count me among those who would be smiling.


Oh, one other thing:  The Shermanator notwithstanding, I'll bet Skip Bayless is better at life than Richie Incognito.

I agree 100%.

I now have two favorite NFL teams.

1.  Indianapolis Colts (Stanford East).
2.  Whoever is playing the Miami Dolphins.

[Cardinal96]

After what I heard this morning from the Miami players interviewed on ESPN, and even acknowledging that there are probably a lot of facts still to emerge, if the Dolphins never win another game, you can count me among those who would be smiling.


Oh, one other thing:  The Shermanator notwithstanding, I'll bet Skip Bayless is better at life than Richie Incognito.

I agree 100%.

I now have two favorite NFL teams.

1.  Indianapolis Colts (Stanford East).
2.  Whoever is playing the Miami Dolphins.

[oman]

In what context, is repeated harassment and bullying acceptable?  When it is ok to use racial epithets, threaten violence against someone's family and threaten to kill someone, particularly when the recipient didn't welcome this behavior?  I am all ears.

If it involves your mom.  Then it is acceptable.

[oman]

In what context, is repeated harassment and bullying acceptable?  When it is ok to use racial epithets, threaten violence against someone's family and threaten to kill someone, particularly when the recipient didn't welcome this behavior?  I am all ears.

If it involves your mom.  Then it is acceptable.

[FarmBoy]

An interesting, but non-scientific, survey of players on the incident: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/994588...-incognito

To the question of which player, Martin or Incognito, would they rather have as a teammate, 15 of the players who responded (20.8 percent) said they would rather have Incognito as a teammate, while 34 (47.2 percent) said they would rather have Martin as a teammate.

However, 23 of those who responded, or 31.9 percent, said they would want neither as a teammate. In all, the results showed that 57 of those who answered (79.2 percent) would not want Incognito as a teammate.

[FarmBoy]

An interesting, but non-scientific, survey of players on the incident: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/994588...-incognito

To the question of which player, Martin or Incognito, would they rather have as a teammate, 15 of the players who responded (20.8 percent) said they would rather have Incognito as a teammate, while 34 (47.2 percent) said they would rather have Martin as a teammate.

However, 23 of those who responded, or 31.9 percent, said they would want neither as a teammate. In all, the results showed that 57 of those who answered (79.2 percent) would not want Incognito as a teammate.

[Nan3cy]

That Grantland article is terrific.

[Nan3cy]

That Grantland article is terrific.

[fullmetal]

Some more locker room perspective, but not from the Dolphins' locker room.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/football/n...z2k3wiT73m

[fullmetal]

Some more locker room perspective, but not from the Dolphins' locker room.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/football/n...z2k3wiT73m

[fullmetal]

Hints that Richie Incognito broke the code in some fashion from his end.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/new...zing-code/

If everything here is true, the hazing did not stop once preseason/training camp was over.  This extended into the rookie season during business hours and on into the next season.

Also, classy move by Incognito to hold team meetings at strip clubs: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Inco...-club.html

[fullmetal]

Hints that Richie Incognito broke the code in some fashion from his end.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/new...zing-code/

If everything here is true, the hazing did not stop once preseason/training camp was over.  This extended into the rookie season during business hours and on into the next season.

Also, classy move by Incognito to hold team meetings at strip clubs: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Inco...-club.html

[76lsjumb]

Hints that Richie Incognito broke the code in some fashion from his end.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/new...zing-code/

From the article:

Seven years later, when Cleeland was playing for St. Louis, the Rams drafted Incognito, who had been kicked off his college teams at Nebraska and Oregon.

"I'm not afraid to say that he was an immature, unrealistic scumbag," Cleeland said. "When it came down to it, he had no personality, he was a locker-room cancer, and he just wanted to fight everybody all the time. It was bizarre beyond belief."t]

Well, okay then...  Scratch Cleeland off the character witness list for Incognito.

[76lsjumb]

Hints that Richie Incognito broke the code in some fashion from his end.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/new...zing-code/

From the article:

Seven years later, when Cleeland was playing for St. Louis, the Rams drafted Incognito, who had been kicked off his college teams at Nebraska and Oregon.

"I'm not afraid to say that he was an immature, unrealistic scumbag," Cleeland said. "When it came down to it, he had no personality, he was a locker-room cancer, and he just wanted to fight everybody all the time. It was bizarre beyond belief."t]

Well, okay then...  Scratch Cleeland off the character witness list for Incognito.

[Mick]

I am getting more and more sickened the more I hear about this.  Dolphins players supporting Incognito's behavior.  Now the latest twist.  When Martin discussed this issue with the GM, Jeff Ireland, he was told to punch Incognito.  Let that sink in for a moment.  The General Manager of your organization is advocating workplace violence as a dispute to workplace harassment and bullying.  At what other HR department would you get this advice?  If I do that at my job I am out of a job and am likely facing legal action. 

I have moved past Incognito in my anger.  He was the ringleader but this was only possible because of a culture of intimidation and bullying that was supported by the highest levels.  This is institutional rot.  And it needs an enema from the top down.

You wouldn't give that advice at any other workplace.  And yet... the entire point of that specific workplace is violence....

[Mick]

I am getting more and more sickened the more I hear about this.  Dolphins players supporting Incognito's behavior.  Now the latest twist.  When Martin discussed this issue with the GM, Jeff Ireland, he was told to punch Incognito.  Let that sink in for a moment.  The General Manager of your organization is advocating workplace violence as a dispute to workplace harassment and bullying.  At what other HR department would you get this advice?  If I do that at my job I am out of a job and am likely facing legal action. 

I have moved past Incognito in my anger.  He was the ringleader but this was only possible because of a culture of intimidation and bullying that was supported by the highest levels.  This is institutional rot.  And it needs an enema from the top down.

You wouldn't give that advice at any other workplace.  And yet... the entire point of that specific workplace is violence....

[76lsjumb]

For the Board's older viewers [or younger ones who spent a lot of time watching Nickelodeon, I guess], seeing snippets of the Incognito interview on Fox over the weekend led me to the following thought:

Richie Incognito seems kind of like Eddie Haskell...on steroids.  ;D

[76lsjumb]

For the Board's older viewers [or younger ones who spent a lot of time watching Nickelodeon, I guess], seeing snippets of the Incognito interview on Fox over the weekend led me to the following thought:

Richie Incognito seems kind of like Eddie Haskell...on steroids.  ;D

[washingtonismoney]

That Fox interview was ridiculous journalism -- http://m.theatlanticwire.com/entertainme...iew/71437/

I don't understand how an organization could allow someone with a financial relationship to conduct an interview like that.

[washingtonismoney]

That Fox interview was ridiculous journalism -- http://m.theatlanticwire.com/entertainme...iew/71437/

I don't understand how an organization could allow someone with a financial relationship to conduct an interview like that.

[stupac2]

On a lighter side of this whole mess: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/13/sports...orts&_r=2&

[stupac2]

On a lighter side of this whole mess: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/13/sports...orts&_r=2&