[Rally]

It's the soapbox that is objectionable, and the power to fail students who dare object.  "Welcome to American History 101/psych101/poliSci101/Anthro101, now sit down and I will tell you why George Bush and Condolezza Rice are war criminals."  Bad stuff and it happens.  Maybe not as bluntly expressed but it happens.  Happened to me in one class in HS, and a few times in college.  In college I dropped the class.  In HS I was stuck.

[Rally]

It's the soapbox that is objectionable, and the power to fail students who dare object.  "Welcome to American History 101/psych101/poliSci101/Anthro101, now sit down and I will tell you why George Bush and Condolezza Rice are war criminals."  Bad stuff and it happens.  Maybe not as bluntly expressed but it happens.  Happened to me in one class in HS, and a few times in college.  In college I dropped the class.  In HS I was stuck.

[CTcard]

"Welcome to American History 101/psych101/poliSci101/Anthro101, now sit down and I will tell you why George Bush and Condolezza Rice are war criminals."  ... Happened to me in one class in HS, and a few times in college. 

You seem to have had remarkably strident, politically-partisan instructors but even more impressively prescient.

[CTcard]

"Welcome to American History 101/psych101/poliSci101/Anthro101, now sit down and I will tell you why George Bush and Condolezza Rice are war criminals."  ... Happened to me in one class in HS, and a few times in college. 

You seem to have had remarkably strident, politically-partisan instructors but even more impressively prescient.

[Rally]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=13066.msg133156#msg133156 date=1444190850]
"Welcome to American History 101/psych101/poliSci101/Anthro101, now sit down and I will tell you why George Bush and Condolezza Rice are war criminals."  ... Happened to me in one class in HS, and a few times in college. 

You seem to have had a remarkably strident, politically-partisan instructors but even more impressively prescient.
[/quote]

Shirley, you understood me better than that.

[Rally]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=13066.msg133156#msg133156 date=1444190850]
"Welcome to American History 101/psych101/poliSci101/Anthro101, now sit down and I will tell you why George Bush and Condolezza Rice are war criminals."  ... Happened to me in one class in HS, and a few times in college. 

You seem to have had a remarkably strident, politically-partisan instructors but even more impressively prescient.
[/quote]

Shirley, you understood me better than that.

[81alum]

There have been quite a few thoughtful posts in this thread.  When I typed out my thoughts this morning, I feared what would happen and almost didn't hit "post."  But the Cardboard came through again with intelligent and civil conversation--even with some disagreement along the way.

Just like a good classroom.

[81alum]

There have been quite a few thoughtful posts in this thread.  When I typed out my thoughts this morning, I feared what would happen and almost didn't hit "post."  But the Cardboard came through again with intelligent and civil conversation--even with some disagreement along the way.

Just like a good classroom.

[Rally]

There have been quite a few thoughtful posts in this thread.  When I typed out my thoughts this morning, I feared what would happen and almost didn't hit "post."  But the Cardboard come through again with intelligent and civil conversation--even with some disagreement along the way.

Just like a good classroom.

Exactly.

[Rally]

There have been quite a few thoughtful posts in this thread.  When I typed out my thoughts this morning, I feared what would happen and almost didn't hit "post."  But the Cardboard come through again with intelligent and civil conversation--even with some disagreement along the way.

Just like a good classroom.

Exactly.

[Mick]

All your comments were nails.  I applaud them.

WIM...I don't think you understand where I'm coming from.  In your response, you rendered half a dozen "opinions" in the form of facts...these are systems that other countries have evaluated and selected.  That's great, that's what a kid needs to know.  What a kid doesn't need to hear is "the <name of country> health care system is the only system that works, all others stink" followed by a few cherry-picked bits of evidence.

That's all I'm saying, that rendering a narrow point of view within the scope of a class while a prof is supposed to be objectively teaching is flat wrong.

Let me give you an example from the other side.  A religious studies class that I took, in fact, taught by a Catholic priest.  Said class was titled "The Person of Christ."  This Jesuit, who had been raised and taught and fully believed as a Catholic priest that faith in Jesus and all his miracles was the only way to believe.  He gets up in front of our class and splits the explanation down the middle...half the answers were from the Bible, half the answers are all the secular explanations you'll find from any atheist/agnostic/nonbeliever or whatever.  He highlights the inconsistencies between the synoptic gospels which I guarantee you no parish priest does unless prompted.  On the last day, he leans forward and said, "Class, I told you on the first day of class I would tell you the Truth on the last day of class.  Well, here I am to do just that.  Here's what it is:  It's all about faith.  If you believe it happened, it happened.  If you don't believe it, it didn't."  Then, he said "Boom" and dropped the mike.  Well, he didn't, but 25 years later he would have.  He just walked out of the class, and I felt fully informed.  It was a great class.

That's what I want from a college professor.  A full and balanced discussion of issues.  I don't care if opinions are voiced, so long as they are within context and in balance.  I want to hear about all the health systems, and the pros and cons of each.  I don't want to hear just ideology, of any stripe.

[Mick]

All your comments were nails.  I applaud them.

WIM...I don't think you understand where I'm coming from.  In your response, you rendered half a dozen "opinions" in the form of facts...these are systems that other countries have evaluated and selected.  That's great, that's what a kid needs to know.  What a kid doesn't need to hear is "the <name of country> health care system is the only system that works, all others stink" followed by a few cherry-picked bits of evidence.

That's all I'm saying, that rendering a narrow point of view within the scope of a class while a prof is supposed to be objectively teaching is flat wrong.

Let me give you an example from the other side.  A religious studies class that I took, in fact, taught by a Catholic priest.  Said class was titled "The Person of Christ."  This Jesuit, who had been raised and taught and fully believed as a Catholic priest that faith in Jesus and all his miracles was the only way to believe.  He gets up in front of our class and splits the explanation down the middle...half the answers were from the Bible, half the answers are all the secular explanations you'll find from any atheist/agnostic/nonbeliever or whatever.  He highlights the inconsistencies between the synoptic gospels which I guarantee you no parish priest does unless prompted.  On the last day, he leans forward and said, "Class, I told you on the first day of class I would tell you the Truth on the last day of class.  Well, here I am to do just that.  Here's what it is:  It's all about faith.  If you believe it happened, it happened.  If you don't believe it, it didn't."  Then, he said "Boom" and dropped the mike.  Well, he didn't, but 25 years later he would have.  He just walked out of the class, and I felt fully informed.  It was a great class.

That's what I want from a college professor.  A full and balanced discussion of issues.  I don't care if opinions are voiced, so long as they are within context and in balance.  I want to hear about all the health systems, and the pros and cons of each.  I don't want to hear just ideology, of any stripe.

[stupac2]

Mick, the thing I think you're missing is that one person's fact can be another person's opinion. Global warming is a great example, it would be utterly impossible to teach a class on the science of global warming without saying dozens of things per day that most movement conservatives would consider flagrant falsehoods. In WiM's health policy example, the professor could say something like "It's the responsibility of every person working in this field to consider cost tradeoffs, to grapple with what's actually worth paying", which is again something that many many people consider way out of bounds.

Hell, even something that's as anodyne to me as "In the modern USA white men count more than anyone else" sets off tons of people. Acting like there's a simple boundary here is wrong.

[stupac2]

Mick, the thing I think you're missing is that one person's fact can be another person's opinion. Global warming is a great example, it would be utterly impossible to teach a class on the science of global warming without saying dozens of things per day that most movement conservatives would consider flagrant falsehoods. In WiM's health policy example, the professor could say something like "It's the responsibility of every person working in this field to consider cost tradeoffs, to grapple with what's actually worth paying", which is again something that many many people consider way out of bounds.

Hell, even something that's as anodyne to me as "In the modern USA white men count more than anyone else" sets off tons of people. Acting like there's a simple boundary here is wrong.

[CornFed]

The examples of grandstanding profs browbeating their students with their slant on any given issue are fairly rare.  Such explicit attempts to brainwash are frequently unsuccessful and even risk creating a backlash from students who resent the attempt to manipulate them.  I think the bigger impact results from the inherent personal bias of the teachers, which is probably more powerful because the speaker sincerely believes he/she is giving impartial perspectives.  There is probably very little one can do about this effect other than trying to find more balance in faculty outlooks and the areas of inquiry they are pursuing in their own career.  At this point, faculties at all but a handful of schools skew very hard in one direction and the output is, not surprisingly, skewed as well.

[CornFed]

The examples of grandstanding profs browbeating their students with their slant on any given issue are fairly rare.  Such explicit attempts to brainwash are frequently unsuccessful and even risk creating a backlash from students who resent the attempt to manipulate them.  I think the bigger impact results from the inherent personal bias of the teachers, which is probably more powerful because the speaker sincerely believes he/she is giving impartial perspectives.  There is probably very little one can do about this effect other than trying to find more balance in faculty outlooks and the areas of inquiry they are pursuing in their own career.  At this point, faculties at all but a handful of schools skew very hard in one direction and the output is, not surprisingly, skewed as well.

[Rally]

"On the other hand, when I taught a course on the history of rock and roll (as part of a program called undergraduate specials, since abolished, that allowed students to teach courses if they could find a faculty sponsor), I told everybody the week before the final that the exam would include a one-point extra credit question asking for the name and performing artist of the greatest record in rock history. The correct answer, I explained, was Hooray for Hazel by Tommy Roe. Interestingly, everybody got it right on the exam, so there was no need to grapple with the issue of dissent."

I'm such a smart as, Garvin, I would have asked if you could hum a few bars.

[Rally]

"On the other hand, when I taught a course on the history of rock and roll (as part of a program called undergraduate specials, since abolished, that allowed students to teach courses if they could find a faculty sponsor), I told everybody the week before the final that the exam would include a one-point extra credit question asking for the name and performing artist of the greatest record in rock history. The correct answer, I explained, was Hooray for Hazel by Tommy Roe. Interestingly, everybody got it right on the exam, so there was no need to grapple with the issue of dissent."

I'm such a smart as, Garvin, I would have asked if you could hum a few bars.

[Rally]

I realize this is a tweet, not a classroom lecture, but I can't help but wonder how she treats any Carson support d foolish enough to take her class.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/10/...tcmp=hpbt3

[Rally]

I realize this is a tweet, not a classroom lecture, but I can't help but wonder how she treats any Carson support d foolish enough to take her class.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/10/...tcmp=hpbt3

[dabigv13]

I realize this is a tweet, not a classroom lecture, but I can't help but wonder how she treats any Carson support d foolish enough to take her class.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/10/...tcmp=hpbt3

Well, the professor who said it is black herself, I think that's a pretty necessary part of interpreting her comment.

I really hope Carson doesn't believe half the stuff he says, because he really ought to be smart enough to know better. If a medical student or resident I was working with parroted his idiotic vaccine response from the debate, I would certainly call them out on it.

And honestly how do you even respond to his comments in that article? What is his logic...if a swastika belongs in a museum, maybe the Confederate flag does as well? Does he want to see swastikas flying next to confederate flags at NASCAR events?

[dabigv13]

I realize this is a tweet, not a classroom lecture, but I can't help but wonder how she treats any Carson support d foolish enough to take her class.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/10/...tcmp=hpbt3

Well, the professor who said it is black herself, I think that's a pretty necessary part of interpreting her comment.

I really hope Carson doesn't believe half the stuff he says, because he really ought to be smart enough to know better. If a medical student or resident I was working with parroted his idiotic vaccine response from the debate, I would certainly call them out on it.

And honestly how do you even respond to his comments in that article? What is his logic...if a swastika belongs in a museum, maybe the Confederate flag does as well? Does he want to see swastikas flying next to confederate flags at NASCAR events?

[fullmetal]

On the other hand, when I taught a course on the history of rock and roll (as part of a program called undergraduate specials, since abolished, that allowed students to teach courses if they could find a faculty sponsor), I told everybody the week before the final that the exam would include a one-point extra credit question asking for the name and performing artist of the greatest record in rock history. The correct answer, I explained, was Hooray for Hazel by Tommy Roe. Interestingly, everybody got it right on the exam, so there was no need to grapple with the issue of dissent.

Student Initiated Courses are a thing.  One unit, pass/fail.

[fullmetal]

On the other hand, when I taught a course on the history of rock and roll (as part of a program called undergraduate specials, since abolished, that allowed students to teach courses if they could find a faculty sponsor), I told everybody the week before the final that the exam would include a one-point extra credit question asking for the name and performing artist of the greatest record in rock history. The correct answer, I explained, was Hooray for Hazel by Tommy Roe. Interestingly, everybody got it right on the exam, so there was no need to grapple with the issue of dissent.

Student Initiated Courses are a thing.  One unit, pass/fail.

[Rally]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=13066.msg133230#msg133230 date=1444250104]
I realize this is a tweet, not a classroom lecture, but I can't help but wonder how she treats any Carson support d foolish enough to take her class.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/10/...tcmp=hpbt3

Well, the professor who said it is black herself, I think that's a pretty necessary part of interpreting her comment.

I really hope Carson doesn't believe half the stuff he says, because he really ought to be smart enough to know better. If a medical student or resident I was working with parroted his idiotic vaccine response from the debate, I would certainly call them out on it.

And honestly how do you even respond to his comments in that article? What is his logic...if a swastika belongs in a museum, maybe the Confederate flag does as well? Does he want to see swastikas flying next to confederate flags at NASCAR events?
[/quote]

I'm not defending him nor do I necessarily support him.  Neither do I care what color the prof is.  I fail to see the relevance, regardless of what rappers and thugs say.  If Carson were to call Obama a "coon" does his color excuse it?  Can Fiorina call Clinton a whose and get away with it because she is a woman?  Or vice versa? 

[Rally]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=13066.msg133230#msg133230 date=1444250104]
I realize this is a tweet, not a classroom lecture, but I can't help but wonder how she treats any Carson support d foolish enough to take her class.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/10/...tcmp=hpbt3

Well, the professor who said it is black herself, I think that's a pretty necessary part of interpreting her comment.

I really hope Carson doesn't believe half the stuff he says, because he really ought to be smart enough to know better. If a medical student or resident I was working with parroted his idiotic vaccine response from the debate, I would certainly call them out on it.

And honestly how do you even respond to his comments in that article? What is his logic...if a swastika belongs in a museum, maybe the Confederate flag does as well? Does he want to see swastikas flying next to confederate flags at NASCAR events?
[/quote]

I'm not defending him nor do I necessarily support him.  Neither do I care what color the prof is.  I fail to see the relevance, regardless of what rappers and thugs say.  If Carson were to call Obama a "coon" does his color excuse it?  Can Fiorina call Clinton a whose and get away with it because she is a woman?  Or vice versa? 

[dabigv13]

I'm not defending him nor do I necessarily support him.  Neither do I care what color the prof is.  I fail to see the relevance, regardless of what rappers and thugs say.

I mean, really?

[dabigv13]

I'm not defending him nor do I necessarily support him.  Neither do I care what color the prof is.  I fail to see the relevance, regardless of what rappers and thugs say.

I mean, really?

[Rally]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=13066.msg133253#msg133253 date=1444254463]
I'm not defending him nor do I necessarily support him.  Neither do I care what color the prof is.  I fail to see the relevance, regardless of what rappers and thugs say.

I mean, really?
[/quote]

Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe all blacks call other blacks N** and Coon.  Do they?

[Rally]

[quote author=ferrari link=topic=13066.msg133253#msg133253 date=1444254463]
I'm not defending him nor do I necessarily support him.  Neither do I care what color the prof is.  I fail to see the relevance, regardless of what rappers and thugs say.

I mean, really?
[/quote]

Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe all blacks call other blacks N** and Coon.  Do they?

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=dabigv link=topic=13066.msg133263#msg133263 date=1444255747]
[quote author=ferrari link=topic=13066.msg133253#msg133253 date=1444254463]
I'm not defending him nor do I necessarily support him.  Neither do I care what color the prof is.  I fail to see the relevance, regardless of what rappers and thugs say.

I mean, really?
[/quote]

Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe all blacks call other blacks N** and Coon.  Do they?
[/quote]

Many do. So you are wrong.

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=dabigv link=topic=13066.msg133263#msg133263 date=1444255747]
[quote author=ferrari link=topic=13066.msg133253#msg133253 date=1444254463]
I'm not defending him nor do I necessarily support him.  Neither do I care what color the prof is.  I fail to see the relevance, regardless of what rappers and thugs say.

I mean, really?
[/quote]

Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe all blacks call other blacks N** and Coon.  Do they?
[/quote]

Many do. So you are wrong.

[TreesAndBirds]

If you want to know what (some) Penn students think of  Professor Butler.

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRati...id=1551168

[TreesAndBirds]

If you want to know what (some) Penn students think of  Professor Butler.

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRati...id=1551168

[martyup]

Can Fiorina call Clinton a whose and get away with it because she is a woman?  Or vice versa?

Would that mean that she's from Who-ville?  That would be a pretty big insult, calling her smaller than a speck.

[martyup]

Can Fiorina call Clinton a whose and get away with it because she is a woman?  Or vice versa?

Would that mean that she's from Who-ville?  That would be a pretty big insult, calling her smaller than a speck.

[yvonne]

But maybe Fiorina's heart is three sizes too small.

[yvonne]

But maybe Fiorina's heart is three sizes too small.

[82lsju]

But maybe Fiorina's heart is three sizes too small.

that would be news, most assumed she had no heart.........

[82lsju]

But maybe Fiorina's heart is three sizes too small.

that would be news, most assumed she had no heart.........