[petersalas]

I don’t know why I’m so bothered, but sitting behind Duke bench and one of the assistant coaches yelling, that’s dirty, that’s dirty by a play involving Kiki.. she has never been a dirty player!! Don’t start with the nonsense now!

[petersalas]

I don’t know why I’m so bothered, but sitting behind Duke bench and one of the assistant coaches yelling, that’s dirty, that’s dirty by a play involving Kiki.. she has never been a dirty player!! Don’t start with the nonsense now!

[Card10Fan]

Glad we gritted out a win. Duke is no push over. It’s good for us to be tested in a close game late and find a way to win. Concerns are lack of perimeter scoring. With Jump being heavily guarded, Lepolo and Demetre/Agara were not aggressive. Too much standing around and forcing the ball inside. I think Bosgana can help but she didn’t get much playing time for some reason.

[Card10Fan]

Glad we gritted out a win. Duke is no push over. It’s good for us to be tested in a close game late and find a way to win. Concerns are lack of perimeter scoring. With Jump being heavily guarded, Lepolo and Demetre/Agara were not aggressive. Too much standing around and forcing the ball inside. I think Bosgana can help but she didn’t get much playing time for some reason.

[mbdude]

71 of 82 pts scored by 3 players.

[mbdude]

71 of 82 pts scored by 3 players.

[jonnyss]

71 of 82 pts scored by 3 players.

i notice that as well. fortunately those 3 players are really good.

[jonnyss]

71 of 82 pts scored by 3 players.

i notice that as well. fortunately those 3 players are really good.

[81alum]

I have some questions about our offense for sure.  But here are some interesting stats that reflect on Tara's scouting report defense.

Duke's points leader, Reigen Richardson, was held to 3 points in an extended game.
Their go-to post, Kennedy Brown, had only 1 basket in the game.

What went wrong, then, when we were so wildly successful with our defensive plan?  Ashlon Jackson is what went wrong.  She was 6/10 from three point range.  She was 0/4 against Davidson and 0/4 against Columbia.  Her unexpected 18 points turned what would have been a blowout into a nail biter.

Yes, our three point defense is not good.  It was not good against Indiana, either, although Indiana missed some open shots.  Even Cal Poly managed to get some open three point shots.  Late in the game Tara sent Clardy in to guard Jackson and it seemed to work.

I am more concerned about our offense.  Duke's defense will be studied and replicated by many other teams that will face us in the future.  The physicality is similar to what we saw last year from Colorado, USC, etc.  I worry that our continuity offenses (triangle, Princeton) work best when the game is called tightly and there is freedom of movement.  But in the mugging that was this game, pretty offense didn't work.

But one thing did work:  getting the ball inside to Iriafen and Brink.  27 and 29 points oh my.  I can't remember a game I've seen with two such high scorers.  They are each going to have a lot of bruises tomorrow, but this was "smash-mouth basketball" and Duke's two bigs could not stop our two bigs when either of them got the ball down low.

Jump was Jump, but it is concerning that the rest of the offense went missing--everyone beyond those three were 3/17.  Note that Agara had 4 assists, however.  Demetre had the one trey at an absolutely critical time.  Let's hope that gets her started out of her slump.

It was nice to see Erica "Bird" McCall at the chalk talk, to meet the freshmen at the behind-the-bench, and to hear from the Hulls and Alyssa Jerome also at the behind-the-bench.  Tara was optimistic that playing in this kind of game will help our team get better.  At a minimum, it tells us some important things we need to work on.

At the chalk-talk McCall seemed to indicate that we have a variety of offenses we can call on depending on the opponent.  It did not sound as if we were locked into one system for the whole season, but rather that there were elements of various offenses that all would play a role depending on the situation.

At the behind-the-bench, Tara noted that we had a terrific play to end the game, before overtime.  She did not say it was mis-called by the refs, but I certainly thought so from my seat and the fact that Tara brought it up makes me think that she saw it that way too.  It was similar to the play we ran a number of years ago to tie Colorado at the last second and make it into overtime--Prechtel got the layup on a long pass from the out of bounds play.

[81alum]

I have some questions about our offense for sure.  But here are some interesting stats that reflect on Tara's scouting report defense.

Duke's points leader, Reigen Richardson, was held to 3 points in an extended game.
Their go-to post, Kennedy Brown, had only 1 basket in the game.

What went wrong, then, when we were so wildly successful with our defensive plan?  Ashlon Jackson is what went wrong.  She was 6/10 from three point range.  She was 0/4 against Davidson and 0/4 against Columbia.  Her unexpected 18 points turned what would have been a blowout into a nail biter.

Yes, our three point defense is not good.  It was not good against Indiana, either, although Indiana missed some open shots.  Even Cal Poly managed to get some open three point shots.  Late in the game Tara sent Clardy in to guard Jackson and it seemed to work.

I am more concerned about our offense.  Duke's defense will be studied and replicated by many other teams that will face us in the future.  The physicality is similar to what we saw last year from Colorado, USC, etc.  I worry that our continuity offenses (triangle, Princeton) work best when the game is called tightly and there is freedom of movement.  But in the mugging that was this game, pretty offense didn't work.

But one thing did work:  getting the ball inside to Iriafen and Brink.  27 and 29 points oh my.  I can't remember a game I've seen with two such high scorers.  They are each going to have a lot of bruises tomorrow, but this was "smash-mouth basketball" and Duke's two bigs could not stop our two bigs when either of them got the ball down low.

Jump was Jump, but it is concerning that the rest of the offense went missing--everyone beyond those three were 3/17.  Note that Agara had 4 assists, however.  Demetre had the one trey at an absolutely critical time.  Let's hope that gets her started out of her slump.

It was nice to see Erica "Bird" McCall at the chalk talk, to meet the freshmen at the behind-the-bench, and to hear from the Hulls and Alyssa Jerome also at the behind-the-bench.  Tara was optimistic that playing in this kind of game will help our team get better.  At a minimum, it tells us some important things we need to work on.

At the chalk-talk McCall seemed to indicate that we have a variety of offenses we can call on depending on the opponent.  It did not sound as if we were locked into one system for the whole season, but rather that there were elements of various offenses that all would play a role depending on the situation.

At the behind-the-bench, Tara noted that we had a terrific play to end the game, before overtime.  She did not say it was mis-called by the refs, but I certainly thought so from my seat and the fact that Tara brought it up makes me think that she saw it that way too.  It was similar to the play we ran a number of years ago to tie Colorado at the last second and make it into overtime--Prechtel got the layup on a long pass from the out of bounds play.

[WBB fan]

In the Bosgana vs Demetre in the game debate, for what it's worth, the +/- stats are +17 when Bosgana was in the game (for 12:46 min), -18 when Demetre was (27:17).  I'm in the camp of those who question Demetre getting so much playing time. Maybe it was a question of Tara feeling she was stronger defensively. Maybe . . .

BTW, Cam is now at 70 straight made free throws. That's making me get nervous every time she steps to the free throw line. Will this be the one that misses at last? Stanford certainly needed her 100% today.

[WBB fan]

In the Bosgana vs Demetre in the game debate, for what it's worth, the +/- stats are +17 when Bosgana was in the game (for 12:46 min), -18 when Demetre was (27:17).  I'm in the camp of those who question Demetre getting so much playing time. Maybe it was a question of Tara feeling she was stronger defensively. Maybe . . .

BTW, Cam is now at 70 straight made free throws. That's making me get nervous every time she steps to the free throw line. Will this be the one that misses at last? Stanford certainly needed her 100% today.

[PVTree]

Announcers said Brink has 72 in a row. The record is 75. 

I'm glad that my great fear for this game did not come through. I saw visions of last year's SCarolina game where we lead early on, list the lead, went to OT, and lost.

[PVTree]

Announcers said Brink has 72 in a row. The record is 75. 

I'm glad that my great fear for this game did not come through. I saw visions of last year's SCarolina game where we lead early on, list the lead, went to OT, and lost.

[81alum]

I also wondered why Iriafen sat for quite a few minutes in the 3rd and 4th when she had only one foul.  But she and Brink each wound up at 30 minutes, which is probably where they should be so as not to wear them down in such a bruising game.

My take on the otherwise odd substitutions is that Demetre and Agara are bigger, sturdier players and more capable of replacing Brink or Iriafen when one of them had to sit.  That is 20 minutes right there--and with Duke's two tall players I don't think Tara wanted Bosgana on 6'5" Embro or 6'6" Brown.  Ogden is tall enough and big enough to take that slot too, but she seems to be adjusting to the college level still. 

In short, Bosgana is more in the guard rotation while Demetre and Agara seem to be in the post rotation this year given our lack of posts to back up Brink and Iriafen.  Jump played all 45, Lepolo 43.  Not a lot of minutes left for the third guard position, which got carved up a lot of different ways.

Tara noted at behind-the-bench that Iriafen had a cramp in her leg and is fine.  Whew.  The one thing this team cannot afford is an injury to a key player.

---

My guess is that Stanford’s emphasis going in is going to be defensive, to keep Duke from recovering its three point shooting after the Davidson debacle. Our perimeter defense has been somewhat flawed so far this year. It was nice to beat Indiana, but we did give them a lot of open perimeter shots—we were fortunate that more of them did not go down. We don’t want to let Duke get its three point shooting back on track. In addition, I am sure Tara and the coaches know how to defend Kennedy Brown—and Cam in particular will have memories of playing her. Avoiding fouls will be important, given that Brown tends to pick up quite a few herself.  On offense, our players are going to be forced out of their normal systems and patterns.  It won't be comfortable for them.  But it will be excellent preparation for the likes of Colorado et al.

I feel like tooting my own horn a little.  I am actually very seldom right in my predictions--I am a rank amateur after all!  But this was probably my best prediction for a game in all my previews.  Too bad we failed the test of preventing Duke from getting its three point shooting on track.  And if you liked Duke's defense, just wait for Colorado, USC, and probably half a dozen others.

[81alum]

I also wondered why Iriafen sat for quite a few minutes in the 3rd and 4th when she had only one foul.  But she and Brink each wound up at 30 minutes, which is probably where they should be so as not to wear them down in such a bruising game.

My take on the otherwise odd substitutions is that Demetre and Agara are bigger, sturdier players and more capable of replacing Brink or Iriafen when one of them had to sit.  That is 20 minutes right there--and with Duke's two tall players I don't think Tara wanted Bosgana on 6'5" Embro or 6'6" Brown.  Ogden is tall enough and big enough to take that slot too, but she seems to be adjusting to the college level still. 

In short, Bosgana is more in the guard rotation while Demetre and Agara seem to be in the post rotation this year given our lack of posts to back up Brink and Iriafen.  Jump played all 45, Lepolo 43.  Not a lot of minutes left for the third guard position, which got carved up a lot of different ways.

Tara noted at behind-the-bench that Iriafen had a cramp in her leg and is fine.  Whew.  The one thing this team cannot afford is an injury to a key player.

---

My guess is that Stanford’s emphasis going in is going to be defensive, to keep Duke from recovering its three point shooting after the Davidson debacle. Our perimeter defense has been somewhat flawed so far this year. It was nice to beat Indiana, but we did give them a lot of open perimeter shots—we were fortunate that more of them did not go down. We don’t want to let Duke get its three point shooting back on track. In addition, I am sure Tara and the coaches know how to defend Kennedy Brown—and Cam in particular will have memories of playing her. Avoiding fouls will be important, given that Brown tends to pick up quite a few herself.  On offense, our players are going to be forced out of their normal systems and patterns.  It won't be comfortable for them.  But it will be excellent preparation for the likes of Colorado et al.

I feel like tooting my own horn a little.  I am actually very seldom right in my predictions--I am a rank amateur after all!  But this was probably my best prediction for a game in all my previews.  Too bad we failed the test of preventing Duke from getting its three point shooting on track.  And if you liked Duke's defense, just wait for Colorado, USC, and probably half a dozen others.

[WBB fan]

Announcers said Brink has 72 in a row. The record is 75. 

I'm glad that my great fear for this game did not come through. I saw visions of last year's SCarolina game where we lead early on, list the lead, went to OT, and lost.

My mistake. Yes, she does have 72 -- 48 to end last year, then 24 so far this year.  And I too was having the same visions about the SC game from last year. But this year's team seems to have more starch in it. Kiki isn't going to fold this year.

[WBB fan]

Announcers said Brink has 72 in a row. The record is 75. 

I'm glad that my great fear for this game did not come through. I saw visions of last year's SCarolina game where we lead early on, list the lead, went to OT, and lost.

My mistake. Yes, she does have 72 -- 48 to end last year, then 24 so far this year.  And I too was having the same visions about the SC game from last year. But this year's team seems to have more starch in it. Kiki isn't going to fold this year.

[Card10Fan]

I thought Talana looked tired in the 2nd half especially defensively leading to some openish 3 pointers for Ashlon Jackson. If anyone remember, we were one of her finalists before she chose Duke. She was only averaging 9 points per game coming into todays game. 

Duke is definitely on the up and up with Lawson. I foresee more recruiting battles with them and Notre Dame in the future.

[Card10Fan]

I thought Talana looked tired in the 2nd half especially defensively leading to some openish 3 pointers for Ashlon Jackson. If anyone remember, we were one of her finalists before she chose Duke. She was only averaging 9 points per game coming into todays game. 

Duke is definitely on the up and up with Lawson. I foresee more recruiting battles with them and Notre Dame in the future.

[MV72018]

71 of 82 pts scored by 3 players.

Beyond the starters, and perhaps Agara, Stanford doesn't have much quality depth. The non-starters were 1 for 10 from the field and totaled 5 points in 64 minutes. And two of the 5 starters, Bosgana and Lepolo, were 2 for 7 and totaled 6 points in 56 minutes. Critically important that neither Brink nor Iriafin foul out going forward, especially against good teams.

[MV72018]

71 of 82 pts scored by 3 players.

Beyond the starters, and perhaps Agara, Stanford doesn't have much quality depth. The non-starters were 1 for 10 from the field and totaled 5 points in 64 minutes. And two of the 5 starters, Bosgana and Lepolo, were 2 for 7 and totaled 6 points in 56 minutes. Critically important that neither Brink nor Iriafin foul out going forward, especially against good teams.

[WBB fan]

[quote="mbdude" pid='403536' dateline='1700433702']
71 of 82 pts scored by 3 players.

Perhaps a reasonable conclusion based on this one game. But as a counter to this, see the Indiana game. In short, I'm not prepared to make this assessment of the team at this point in the season.

[WBB fan]

[quote="mbdude" pid='403536' dateline='1700433702']
71 of 82 pts scored by 3 players.

Perhaps a reasonable conclusion based on this one game. But as a counter to this, see the Indiana game. In short, I'm not prepared to make this assessment of the team at this point in the season.

[BillBradley]

Highly entertaining game and a great confidence builder for the team! Tough to beat a team that hits 10 3's but we found a way. Totally in sync w/your post 81 how it seemed like the gameplan was to win the interior and make them hit shots to beat us. They almost did. Feel like we should have been able to stop Jackson, but not going to complain. Great win.

Cam stepped up big time for us. There are going to be games where you need your star to take over and this was one of them. In the post game interview, Cam said Tara told her "Hey, you really need to put us on your back". She sure did. Just for fun, here are all the positive plays Cam made in the 4th Quarter and in OT <apologies for the length of the post, but it's pretty outstanding>: 


9:18 - OBoard and bucket
8:53 - Block
8:49 - DBoard
8:09 - Bucket
7:52 - Block
7:46 - DBoard
7:13 - Block
5:35 - Bucket
5:10 - Foul <NOT!>
2:48 - Bucket
:22 -  2 FT's
4:59 - Won tip
4:34 - OBoard
4:17 - 2 FT's
2:14 - 2 FT's
1:56 - DBoard
1:32 - Bucket
:11 -  2 FT's

18 points, 5 boards, 3 blocks. These don't show other contributions like altered shots and deflections which she had multiple.

While it's great to have such a phenom, we can't expect bacon-saving performances like that all the time. We desperately need other players to raise their level. I think Demetre has it in her to be a game changer. She's a great rebounder and passer, but she has to hit shots. If she's hitting and with Jump on the floor, we are so tough to guard. Really, all that happened after the first quarter is they tightened up on Jump and played more scrappy down low. I really didn't think they were mugging us or playing bully ball. Cam flails a lot which makes it look bad, but I didn't think Duke played like some of the Colorado games, for example. As others have mentioned, when teams crowd Cam or Kiki and Hannah isn't open, someone else has to make them pay. I think it's less about standing and hitting an open shot on a kickout and more about moving to the right spots and having the willingness/confidence to attack, cut, slash, etc. Sometimes a cut to the basket is wide open and our perimeter players just stand. Frustrating.

Doesn't look like Lepolo is ever going to be able to do anything offensively other than hit an open shot every once in awhile. Sorry, but it's a major disadvantage to play 43 minutes and only score 2 points as a guard these days. But fine, if all Tara expects is for Lepolo to take care of the ball and initiate the offense, then so be it. In the end, we can be great if we can find one other consistent scorer. Maybe it's Elena, but it doesn't seem like Tara trusts her yet defensively. Maybe one of the freshmen can get there by season's end. For now, it looks like it needs to be Demetre. 

Even with Cam, Kiki, and Hannah doing the heavy lifting, these players all made BIG plays:
- Demetre - Monster 3 with a minute left in the 4th.
- Bosgana - Great OBoard and made 1 FT with a minute left in OT. 
- Clardy - Fantastic play with :45 left in the game where she tipped the ball off the Duke guard into the backcourt for an over and back. Might have been the play of the game.

[BillBradley]

Highly entertaining game and a great confidence builder for the team! Tough to beat a team that hits 10 3's but we found a way. Totally in sync w/your post 81 how it seemed like the gameplan was to win the interior and make them hit shots to beat us. They almost did. Feel like we should have been able to stop Jackson, but not going to complain. Great win.

Cam stepped up big time for us. There are going to be games where you need your star to take over and this was one of them. In the post game interview, Cam said Tara told her "Hey, you really need to put us on your back". She sure did. Just for fun, here are all the positive plays Cam made in the 4th Quarter and in OT <apologies for the length of the post, but it's pretty outstanding>: 


9:18 - OBoard and bucket
8:53 - Block
8:49 - DBoard
8:09 - Bucket
7:52 - Block
7:46 - DBoard
7:13 - Block
5:35 - Bucket
5:10 - Foul <NOT!>
2:48 - Bucket
:22 -  2 FT's
4:59 - Won tip
4:34 - OBoard
4:17 - 2 FT's
2:14 - 2 FT's
1:56 - DBoard
1:32 - Bucket
:11 -  2 FT's

18 points, 5 boards, 3 blocks. These don't show other contributions like altered shots and deflections which she had multiple.

While it's great to have such a phenom, we can't expect bacon-saving performances like that all the time. We desperately need other players to raise their level. I think Demetre has it in her to be a game changer. She's a great rebounder and passer, but she has to hit shots. If she's hitting and with Jump on the floor, we are so tough to guard. Really, all that happened after the first quarter is they tightened up on Jump and played more scrappy down low. I really didn't think they were mugging us or playing bully ball. Cam flails a lot which makes it look bad, but I didn't think Duke played like some of the Colorado games, for example. As others have mentioned, when teams crowd Cam or Kiki and Hannah isn't open, someone else has to make them pay. I think it's less about standing and hitting an open shot on a kickout and more about moving to the right spots and having the willingness/confidence to attack, cut, slash, etc. Sometimes a cut to the basket is wide open and our perimeter players just stand. Frustrating.

Doesn't look like Lepolo is ever going to be able to do anything offensively other than hit an open shot every once in awhile. Sorry, but it's a major disadvantage to play 43 minutes and only score 2 points as a guard these days. But fine, if all Tara expects is for Lepolo to take care of the ball and initiate the offense, then so be it. In the end, we can be great if we can find one other consistent scorer. Maybe it's Elena, but it doesn't seem like Tara trusts her yet defensively. Maybe one of the freshmen can get there by season's end. For now, it looks like it needs to be Demetre. 

Even with Cam, Kiki, and Hannah doing the heavy lifting, these players all made BIG plays:
- Demetre - Monster 3 with a minute left in the 4th.
- Bosgana - Great OBoard and made 1 FT with a minute left in OT. 
- Clardy - Fantastic play with :45 left in the game where she tipped the ball off the Duke guard into the backcourt for an over and back. Might have been the play of the game.

[BobK]

Does Stanford consistently break the press without Lepolo. She was a difference maker

[BobK]

Does Stanford consistently break the press without Lepolo. She was a difference maker

[petersalas]

Thank you! I’ve read time and time again how Stanford cannot get the ball over when pressed and for a long time it was true. Actually many of those Stanford teams would have lost the game. But I did not see any panic in this team and although there was quite a bit of turnovers, it wasn’t due to the press. I think this team can still and will still get better but winning these types of games bodes well!

1700453661[/url]']
Does Stanford consistently break the press without Lepolo. She was a difference maker

[petersalas]

Thank you! I’ve read time and time again how Stanford cannot get the ball over when pressed and for a long time it was true. Actually many of those Stanford teams would have lost the game. But I did not see any panic in this team and although there was quite a bit of turnovers, it wasn’t due to the press. I think this team can still and will still get better but winning these types of games bodes well!

1700453661[/url]']
Does Stanford consistently break the press without Lepolo. She was a difference maker

[BillBradley]

Does Stanford consistently break the press without Lepolo. She was a difference maker

She does take care of the ball, for sure. Also, credit the coaching staff for figuring out that it's easier to break the press with the bigs. Cam and Demetre especially played a big part in bringing the ball up.

[BillBradley]

Does Stanford consistently break the press without Lepolo. She was a difference maker

She does take care of the ball, for sure. Also, credit the coaching staff for figuring out that it's easier to break the press with the bigs. Cam and Demetre especially played a big part in bringing the ball up.

[scorecard]

These two clips of the locker room celebration were great! Team chemistry means something

https://x.com/StanfordWBB/status/1726381...98309?s=20

https://x.com/JFP32/status/1726396516276019618?s=20

[scorecard]

These two clips of the locker room celebration were great! Team chemistry means something

https://x.com/StanfordWBB/status/1726381...98309?s=20

https://x.com/JFP32/status/1726396516276019618?s=20

[81alum]

The presser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9whAPlhuzM

Highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNgEhnwRM0

---

Cam:  "For the first time in my life a ref came up to me and told me they called a foul on me that wasn't a foul.  So that felt good."

I presume she means the one where the Duke player went over her back and they called it on Cam, producing a chorus of boos.

Tara confirmed that Iriafen was held out for a spell while they worked on her leg cramp and got electrolytes into her.  That explains one of my questions about why Cam was in defending with 4 fouls when Kiki was out with 1.

On the Brooke question, Tara said: "I don't know that Brooke feels she has played that well so far, but [her game tying 3 point shot] that was a h.uge confidence builder for her and for us.  But we know she can do that.  Brooke's rebounding was good, her defense was good, she knows what we are doing out there and she talks, so she helps us organize the floor and run our offense, and she did a great job."

[81alum]

The presser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9whAPlhuzM

Highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNgEhnwRM0

---

Cam:  "For the first time in my life a ref came up to me and told me they called a foul on me that wasn't a foul.  So that felt good."

I presume she means the one where the Duke player went over her back and they called it on Cam, producing a chorus of boos.

Tara confirmed that Iriafen was held out for a spell while they worked on her leg cramp and got electrolytes into her.  That explains one of my questions about why Cam was in defending with 4 fouls when Kiki was out with 1.

On the Brooke question, Tara said: "I don't know that Brooke feels she has played that well so far, but [her game tying 3 point shot] that was a h.uge confidence builder for her and for us.  But we know she can do that.  Brooke's rebounding was good, her defense was good, she knows what we are doing out there and she talks, so she helps us organize the floor and run our offense, and she did a great job."

[81alum]

Much longer highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VEdmG9Bh9w

And ESPN full game replay here:
https://www.espn.com/watch/player/_/id/f...68abc85587

[81alum]

Much longer highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VEdmG9Bh9w

And ESPN full game replay here:
https://www.espn.com/watch/player/_/id/f...68abc85587

[SkiBum80]

As exhilarating a fabulous win this was,
I’m reminded that a 3 legged table is a risky table. Take one leg away, due to injury, foul trouble, or just off night, and the table falls.
Adding other really strong legs (Demetre, guard shooting, bench) would make the table so much more enduring that you take one leg away & it still stands

[SkiBum80]

As exhilarating a fabulous win this was,
I’m reminded that a 3 legged table is a risky table. Take one leg away, due to injury, foul trouble, or just off night, and the table falls.
Adding other really strong legs (Demetre, guard shooting, bench) would make the table so much more enduring that you take one leg away & it still stands