It is terrrible that Elijah Brown has been out for weeks. What I want to know is what happened to him and why it was able to happen. I seem to recall that the injury happened during our bye week. Unless it was a freak or contact-free injury, I can't fathom why TT would allow EB to be a live target in practice. Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4. He is a precious resource for Stanford football at this juncture, one to be carefully protected from serious injury in practice. If TT did not protect him in practice, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person. But I must question why a rare talent like EB was not explicitly protected in practice -- again, assuming he did not injure himself or have a freak accident. I'd be interested in knowing what others think about this matter.
Elijah Brown's injury
It is terrrible that Elijah Brown has been out for weeks. What I want to know is what happened to him and why it was able to happen. I seem to recall that the injury happened during our bye week. Unless it was a freak or contact-free injury, I can't fathom why TT would allow EB to be a live target in practice. Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4. He is a precious resource for Stanford football at this juncture, one to be carefully protected from serious injury in practice. If TT did not protect him in practice, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person. But I must question why a rare talent like EB was not explicitly protected in practice -- again, assuming he did not injure himself or have a freak accident. I'd be interested in knowing what others think about this matter.
10-06-2024, 02:02 PM
I can’t imagine that the injury happened in practice. But I was reminded of what happened to the baseball team a few years ago. Star catcher Maverick Handley had a skateboard accident and missed the entire postseason.
I can’t imagine that the injury happened in practice. But I was reminded of what happened to the baseball team a few years ago. Star catcher Maverick Handley had a skateboard accident and missed the entire postseason.
10-06-2024, 02:23 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2024, 02:24 PM by CardinalSagehen.)
Brown injured a finger. I imagine he hit a helmet or something else after throwing the ball. QBs sometimes even hit an offensive player during the follow-through.
This is not an uncommon injury for a quarterback. As I recall, Luck injured a finger before the 2009 Sun Bowl, although his injury occurred during the final game (back when we started regularly beating Notre Dame).
It's a little questionable that Brown was injured in practice (unless he wasn't), but we don't have the details. I'd rather stick to other facts related to on-field performance when criticizing TT.
This is not an uncommon injury for a quarterback. As I recall, Luck injured a finger before the 2009 Sun Bowl, although his injury occurred during the final game (back when we started regularly beating Notre Dame).
It's a little questionable that Brown was injured in practice (unless he wasn't), but we don't have the details. I'd rather stick to other facts related to on-field performance when criticizing TT.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2024, 02:24 PM by CardinalSagehen.)
Brown injured a finger. I imagine he hit a helmet or something else after throwing the ball. QBs sometimes even hit an offensive player during the follow-through.
This is not an uncommon injury for a quarterback. As I recall, Luck injured a finger before the 2009 Sun Bowl, although his injury occurred during the final game (back when we started regularly beating Notre Dame).
It's a little questionable that Brown was injured in practice (unless he wasn't), but we don't have the details. I'd rather stick to other facts related to on-field performance when criticizing TT.
This is not an uncommon injury for a quarterback. As I recall, Luck injured a finger before the 2009 Sun Bowl, although his injury occurred during the final game (back when we started regularly beating Notre Dame).
It's a little questionable that Brown was injured in practice (unless he wasn't), but we don't have the details. I'd rather stick to other facts related to on-field performance when criticizing TT.
10-06-2024, 02:29 PM
(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: It is terrrible that Elijah Brown has been out for weeks. What I want to know is what happened to him and why it was able to happen. I seem to recall that the injury happened during our bye week. Unless it was a freak or contact-free injury, I can't fathom why TT would allow EB to be a live target in practice. Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4. He is a precious resource for Stanford football at this juncture, one to be carefully protected from serious injury in practice. If TT did not protect him in practice, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person. But I must question why a rare talent like EB was not explicitly protected in practice -- again, assuming he did not injure himself or have a freak accident. I'd be interested in knowing what others think about this matter.
Given that QB’s wear different colored jerseys from everyone else in practice to denote they are “untouchable”, the likelihood of an QB practice injury due to tackling or “blasting” is extraordinarily rare.
However, as Sagehen suggested, a “follow through finger injury” is not unusual whether in practice or a game.
IMO, stating that Taylor may be responsible for the current status of Brown is poor form.
(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: It is terrrible that Elijah Brown has been out for weeks. What I want to know is what happened to him and why it was able to happen. I seem to recall that the injury happened during our bye week. Unless it was a freak or contact-free injury, I can't fathom why TT would allow EB to be a live target in practice. Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4. He is a precious resource for Stanford football at this juncture, one to be carefully protected from serious injury in practice. If TT did not protect him in practice, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person. But I must question why a rare talent like EB was not explicitly protected in practice -- again, assuming he did not injure himself or have a freak accident. I'd be interested in knowing what others think about this matter.
Given that QB’s wear different colored jerseys from everyone else in practice to denote they are “untouchable”, the likelihood of an QB practice injury due to tackling or “blasting” is extraordinarily rare.
However, as Sagehen suggested, a “follow through finger injury” is not unusual whether in practice or a game.
IMO, stating that Taylor may be responsible for the current status of Brown is poor form.
10-06-2024, 02:54 PM
(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
We all agree that Brown needs more playing time so that we (by which I mean, the coaches) can see exactly what we have. Let's get more data to support all kinds of decisions about NIL money and the portal.
While I agree that we don't yet have enough data to anoint Brown, we do have several indicators outside of the Cal Poly game that he's likely to be the best QB on our roster or in our pipeline.
1) Highest recruiting rating on our roster (score of 92 on 247, 11th-ranked QB). Daniels and Lamson were in the range of 40-60th ranked.
2) Heavy and consistent praise from TT.
3) Playing time ahead of Lamson (as a passer, for a whole drive) and Myles Jackson, who has the 2nd-best recruiting profile on the team at QB and has been in the program one year longer.
4) Playing time as a true freshman.
5) The eye test during his brief stint vs. Cal Poly. (I might also add that he was impressive in the Spring Game, for what little it's worth. I noted that his deep ball was very accurate. This has been a major problem for Daniels this season.)
Escapability as a QB is important, but it's overrated compared to pocket presence and the ability to process the field and make quick decisions. Our pass protection has been decent over the last few games - we're taking sacks mostly because our QBs are not getting rid of the ball quickly enough.
In any case, Daniels and Lamson were never expected to be the answer, and it turns out that they are not. The information value of playing Brown is extremely high, and I think we all agree that it needs to happen as soon as he's ready.
(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
We all agree that Brown needs more playing time so that we (by which I mean, the coaches) can see exactly what we have. Let's get more data to support all kinds of decisions about NIL money and the portal.
While I agree that we don't yet have enough data to anoint Brown, we do have several indicators outside of the Cal Poly game that he's likely to be the best QB on our roster or in our pipeline.
1) Highest recruiting rating on our roster (score of 92 on 247, 11th-ranked QB). Daniels and Lamson were in the range of 40-60th ranked.
2) Heavy and consistent praise from TT.
3) Playing time ahead of Lamson (as a passer, for a whole drive) and Myles Jackson, who has the 2nd-best recruiting profile on the team at QB and has been in the program one year longer.
4) Playing time as a true freshman.
5) The eye test during his brief stint vs. Cal Poly. (I might also add that he was impressive in the Spring Game, for what little it's worth. I noted that his deep ball was very accurate. This has been a major problem for Daniels this season.)
Escapability as a QB is important, but it's overrated compared to pocket presence and the ability to process the field and make quick decisions. Our pass protection has been decent over the last few games - we're taking sacks mostly because our QBs are not getting rid of the ball quickly enough.
In any case, Daniels and Lamson were never expected to be the answer, and it turns out that they are not. The information value of playing Brown is extremely high, and I think we all agree that it needs to happen as soon as he's ready.
10-06-2024, 02:59 PM
(10-06-2024, 02:54 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: In any case, Daniels and Lamson were never expected to be the answer, and it turns out that they are not. The information value of playing Brown is extremely high, and I think we all agree that it needs to happen as soon as he's ready.Absolutely.
10-06-2024, 03:41 PM
Given what we saw yesterday I was shocked tt didn’t try Jackson or even mirer for a series or two. If they dont play yesterday I guess as long as 8 can walk we don’t go past him.
Jackson came in pretty highly regarded. Anyone seen him practice? Is he in the doghouse?
Jackson came in pretty highly regarded. Anyone seen him practice? Is he in the doghouse?
Given what we saw yesterday I was shocked tt didn’t try Jackson or even mirer for a series or two. If they dont play yesterday I guess as long as 8 can walk we don’t go past him.
Jackson came in pretty highly regarded. Anyone seen him practice? Is he in the doghouse?
Jackson came in pretty highly regarded. Anyone seen him practice? Is he in the doghouse?
10-06-2024, 03:47 PM
(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
Neither Daniels nor Lamson are in the same stratosphere as Costello.
(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
Neither Daniels nor Lamson are in the same stratosphere as Costello.
(10-06-2024, 02:39 PM)Giants Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: It is terrrible that Elijah Brown has been out for weeks. What I want to know is what happened to him and why it was able to happen. I seem to recall that the injury happened during our bye week. Unless it was a freak or contact-free injury, I can't fathom why TT would allow EB to be a live target in practice. Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4. He is a precious resource for Stanford football at this juncture, one to be carefully protected from serious injury in practice. If TT did not protect him in practice, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person. But I must question why a rare talent like EB was not explicitly protected in practice -- again, assuming he did not injure himself or have a freak accident. I'd be interested in knowing what others think about this matter.
Given that QB’s wear different colored jerseys from everyone else in practice to denote they are “untouchable”, the likelihood of an QB practice injury due to tackling or “blasting” is extraordinarily rare.
However, as Sagehen suggested, a “follow through finger injury” is not unusual whether in practice or a game.
IMO, stating that Taylor may be responsible for the current status of Brown is poor form.
My claim was CONDITIONAL. I wrote: "If TT did not protect him in practice, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person." There's an important difference between a conditional claim and a categorical claim. It could well be that, as another poster suggested, the injury was caused by a hand accidentally hitting a helmet, which I would not blame TT for at all. e, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person.
(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
(10-06-2024, 02:39 PM)Giants Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: It is terrrible that Elijah Brown has been out for weeks. What I want to know is what happened to him and why it was able to happen. I seem to recall that the injury happened during our bye week. Unless it was a freak or contact-free injury, I can't fathom why TT would allow EB to be a live target in practice. Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4. He is a precious resource for Stanford football at this juncture, one to be carefully protected from serious injury in practice. If TT did not protect him in practice, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person. But I must question why a rare talent like EB was not explicitly protected in practice -- again, assuming he did not injure himself or have a freak accident. I'd be interested in knowing what others think about this matter.
Given that QB’s wear different colored jerseys from everyone else in practice to denote they are “untouchable”, the likelihood of an QB practice injury due to tackling or “blasting” is extraordinarily rare.
However, as Sagehen suggested, a “follow through finger injury” is not unusual whether in practice or a game.
IMO, stating that Taylor may be responsible for the current status of Brown is poor form.
My claim was CONDITIONAL. I wrote: "If TT did not protect him in practice, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person." There's an important difference between a conditional claim and a categorical claim. It could well be that, as another poster suggested, the injury was caused by a hand accidentally hitting a helmet, which I would not blame TT for at all. e, e.g, by making tackling or otherwise blasting him off limits, then I'd criticize TT, whom I still like as a person.
(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
10-06-2024, 04:15 PM
(10-06-2024, 03:47 PM)lex24 Wrote:True, but we were discussing Brown. Brown may be in the same stratosphere as Costello, we don't know yet. He may even be "better". My point was that even if he is as good as Costello, relying on throwing to receivers that are not separated from the defender carries large risks. Even a QB as accurate as KJ Costello couldn't "make a living" doing it.(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
Neither Daniels nor Lamson are in the same stratosphere as Costello.
(10-06-2024, 03:47 PM)lex24 Wrote:True, but we were discussing Brown. Brown may be in the same stratosphere as Costello, we don't know yet. He may even be "better". My point was that even if he is as good as Costello, relying on throwing to receivers that are not separated from the defender carries large risks. Even a QB as accurate as KJ Costello couldn't "make a living" doing it.(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
Neither Daniels nor Lamson are in the same stratosphere as Costello.
(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
Goose, "the answer" is your phrase, not mine. And I'm not into 'anointing' anyone for anything. I simply stated that "Elihah is by far the most the most talented QB we have." I agree with you that he doesn't have the wheels of Gene Washington, but the balls he throws are much better and more accurately placed than any other QB on this roster. I also agree that he looks to be a dropback passer albeit with a quick release and that the fact that our O line is porous makes him a vulnerable target.
(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
Goose, "the answer" is your phrase, not mine. And I'm not into 'anointing' anyone for anything. I simply stated that "Elihah is by far the most the most talented QB we have." I agree with you that he doesn't have the wheels of Gene Washington, but the balls he throws are much better and more accurately placed than any other QB on this roster. I also agree that he looks to be a dropback passer albeit with a quick release and that the fact that our O line is porous makes him a vulnerable target.
(10-06-2024, 04:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Goose, "the answer" is your phrase, not mine. And I'm not into 'anointing' anyone for anything. I simply stated that "Elihah is by far the most the most talented QB we have." I agree with you that he doesn't look like Gene Washington out there at all, but the balls he throws are much better and more accurately placed than any other QB on this roster.I haven't seen enough of him to know that he is universally more accurate than any other QB on the roster, but given the anecdotal evidence and the lack of accuracy of the current QBs there is reason to believe he is, at least under some conditions. For that reason it will be great to see what he can do in extended game action. However, even if he is more accurate it may not matter if we can't protect him. Right now we have QBs that must be accounted for in the run game and who are (hopefully) much lesser threats in the passing game. Defenses will play us different if we have a QB that can't/won't run much but is a passing threat. IMO we will need to see how it all fits together before we know how much Brown can help us and how important he can be to the success of our offense. If we can't protect him the results may well be worse than our current horrible situation, even if he is an accurate QB.
FWIW I am impressed that you knew Gene Washington was originally a QB :-). Of course, he had a 34.3% completion percentage at Stanford in 1966. He rushed for a grand total of 362 yards that year. As a QB he definitely was not "the answer". https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla...g_standard I hope Brown is indeed better in at least the passing game. :-).
(10-06-2024, 04:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Goose, "the answer" is your phrase, not mine. And I'm not into 'anointing' anyone for anything. I simply stated that "Elihah is by far the most the most talented QB we have." I agree with you that he doesn't look like Gene Washington out there at all, but the balls he throws are much better and more accurately placed than any other QB on this roster.I haven't seen enough of him to know that he is universally more accurate than any other QB on the roster, but given the anecdotal evidence and the lack of accuracy of the current QBs there is reason to believe he is, at least under some conditions. For that reason it will be great to see what he can do in extended game action. However, even if he is more accurate it may not matter if we can't protect him. Right now we have QBs that must be accounted for in the run game and who are (hopefully) much lesser threats in the passing game. Defenses will play us different if we have a QB that can't/won't run much but is a passing threat. IMO we will need to see how it all fits together before we know how much Brown can help us and how important he can be to the success of our offense. If we can't protect him the results may well be worse than our current horrible situation, even if he is an accurate QB.
FWIW I am impressed that you knew Gene Washington was originally a QB :-). Of course, he had a 34.3% completion percentage at Stanford in 1966. He rushed for a grand total of 362 yards that year. As a QB he definitely was not "the answer". https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla...g_standard I hope Brown is indeed better in at least the passing game. :-).
10-07-2024, 10:25 AM
(10-06-2024, 04:41 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 04:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Goose, "the answer" is your phrase, not mine. And I'm not into 'anointing' anyone for anything. I simply stated that "Elihah is by far the most the most talented QB we have." I agree with you that he doesn't look like Gene Washington out there at all, but the balls he throws are much better and more accurately placed than any other QB on this roster.I haven't seen enough of him to know that he is universally more accurate than any other QB on the roster, but given the anecdotal evidence and the lack of accuracy of the current QBs there is reason to believe he is, at least under some conditions. For that reason it will be great to see what he can do in extended game action. However, even if he is more accurate it may not matter if we can't protect him. Right now we have QBs that must be accounted for in the run game and who are (hopefully) much lesser threats in the passing game. Defenses will play us different if we have a QB that can't/won't run much but is a passing threat. IMO we will need to see how it all fits together before we know how much Brown can help us and how important he can be to the success of our offense. If we can't protect him the results may well be worse than our current horrible situation, even if he is an accurate QB.
FWIW I am impressed that you knew Gene Washington was originally a QB :-). Of course, he had a 34.3% completion percentage at Stanford in 1966. He rushed for a grand total of 362 yards that year. As a QB he definitely was not "the answer". https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla...g_standard I hope Brown is indeed better in at least the passing game. :-).
Yep, we would have been better off in 1966 if they had left Dave Lewis at QB and had Gene immediately play wide receiver. I don't know how he would have liked that though or even come to Stanford if that was the plan.
(10-06-2024, 04:41 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 04:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Goose, "the answer" is your phrase, not mine. And I'm not into 'anointing' anyone for anything. I simply stated that "Elihah is by far the most the most talented QB we have." I agree with you that he doesn't look like Gene Washington out there at all, but the balls he throws are much better and more accurately placed than any other QB on this roster.I haven't seen enough of him to know that he is universally more accurate than any other QB on the roster, but given the anecdotal evidence and the lack of accuracy of the current QBs there is reason to believe he is, at least under some conditions. For that reason it will be great to see what he can do in extended game action. However, even if he is more accurate it may not matter if we can't protect him. Right now we have QBs that must be accounted for in the run game and who are (hopefully) much lesser threats in the passing game. Defenses will play us different if we have a QB that can't/won't run much but is a passing threat. IMO we will need to see how it all fits together before we know how much Brown can help us and how important he can be to the success of our offense. If we can't protect him the results may well be worse than our current horrible situation, even if he is an accurate QB.
FWIW I am impressed that you knew Gene Washington was originally a QB :-). Of course, he had a 34.3% completion percentage at Stanford in 1966. He rushed for a grand total of 362 yards that year. As a QB he definitely was not "the answer". https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/pla...g_standard I hope Brown is indeed better in at least the passing game. :-).
Yep, we would have been better off in 1966 if they had left Dave Lewis at QB and had Gene immediately play wide receiver. I don't know how he would have liked that though or even come to Stanford if that was the plan.
10-07-2024, 02:11 PM
(10-06-2024, 04:15 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 03:47 PM)lex24 Wrote:True, but we were discussing Brown. Brown may be in the same stratosphere as Costello, we don't know yet. He may even be "better". My point was that even if he is as good as Costello, relying on throwing to receivers that are not separated from the defender carries large risks. Even a QB as accurate as KJ Costello couldn't "make a living" doing it.(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
Neither Daniels nor Lamson are in the same stratosphere as Costello.
Keller Chryst is way better than Daniels or Lamson. I'm not sure Costello would have gotten the starting QB position over him if Chryst didn't injure his knee in the Sun Bowl.
(10-06-2024, 04:15 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 03:47 PM)lex24 Wrote:True, but we were discussing Brown. Brown may be in the same stratosphere as Costello, we don't know yet. He may even be "better". My point was that even if he is as good as Costello, relying on throwing to receivers that are not separated from the defender carries large risks. Even a QB as accurate as KJ Costello couldn't "make a living" doing it.(10-06-2024, 02:29 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: Elijah is by far the most talented QB we have. He throws a beautiful, accurate, catchable ball. (And, given that our receivers have considerable difficulty gaining significant separation from the D backs covering them, EB's accurate throws are even more important to our O being successful.) Remember how accurate he was against Cal Poly SLO, completing 7 of 7 in Q4.Sorry, but I am not willing to anoint any QB as "the answer" because he completed 7 of 7 against a clearly inferior team in garbage time. Yes, he did well. There is reason to believe he is in fact a much better passer than either Daniels or Lamson. However his recruiting evaluations seem to indicate that while he is relatively elusive in the pocket he is not a running threat. He was classified as a "drop-back" passer. If we had a better OL that might be just fine. With the one we have, he might not have the protection he needs to excel, or even survive. That may be why he wasn't out there already. We just don't know yet. We will know a lot more when TT is willing and able to put him out there as "the QB". We haven't seen that yet. The injury undoubtedly postpones that date considerably.
I would also like to caution that as KJ Costello proved it is very difficult to have a good passing offense if your receivers can't get significant separation at least a meaningful percentage of the time. Costello was generally pretty accurate. However, 50/50 balls are just that and the defense wins the battle often enough it becomes very difficult to win games throwing those passes. The QB inevitably becomes overly aggressive, because otherwise he would almost never throw the ball at all. For example Ayomanor has great body control, can jump very high, and battles for the ball pretty well. However expecting him to "win" that battle on every play is unrealistic. The losses are often interceptions. Hard to sustain drives that way.
Neither Daniels nor Lamson are in the same stratosphere as Costello.
Keller Chryst is way better than Daniels or Lamson. I'm not sure Costello would have gotten the starting QB position over him if Chryst didn't injure his knee in the Sun Bowl.
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