[Mick]

I know about the marketing collective, and I'm interested in the characterization of USA Fencing as an events company.  USA Fencing, according to the article, hosts a ton more events than other sports I'm familiar with.  I think the logistics of setting up a fencing event must be comparatively easy lol.

Not the same sport, but I'd say USA Volleyball operated in the same fashion, and I'm guessing most of the non-revenue sports are the same. They sponsored a series of regional and national events in which a portion of the revenues found its way to support USA Volleyball. So all those families that are seeking a college admissions edge are spending $5k to $10k per year on club sports are spending that money on travel, coach salaries, facility rentals and -- is kickback too strong a word? -- fees to the national organization.

La Mordida. It's the nature of the beast, one way they raise funds.

[Mick]

I know about the marketing collective, and I'm interested in the characterization of USA Fencing as an events company.  USA Fencing, according to the article, hosts a ton more events than other sports I'm familiar with.  I think the logistics of setting up a fencing event must be comparatively easy lol.

Not the same sport, but I'd say USA Volleyball operated in the same fashion, and I'm guessing most of the non-revenue sports are the same. They sponsored a series of regional and national events in which a portion of the revenues found its way to support USA Volleyball. So all those families that are seeking a college admissions edge are spending $5k to $10k per year on club sports are spending that money on travel, coach salaries, facility rentals and -- is kickback too strong a word? -- fees to the national organization.

La Mordida. It's the nature of the beast, one way they raise funds.

[fullmetal]

Not the same sport, but I'd say USA Volleyball operated in the same fashion, and I'm guessing most of the non-revenue sports are the same. They sponsored a series of regional and national events in which a portion of the revenues found its way to support USA Volleyball. So all those families that are seeking a college admissions edge are spending $5k to $10k per year on club sports are spending that money on travel, coach salaries, facility rentals and -- is kickback too strong a word? -- fees to the national organization.

La Mordida. It's the nature of the beast, one way they raise funds.

I wish that were a viable revenue stream for all sports since it's actually a relatively sustainable way to go.  But for rowing, you really cannot host that many events due to heavy logistical overhead (even the small/local regattas take a lot of effort).  Biathlon, marathon, cross-country skiing, etc are sports that have even greater overhead, and maybe I need to look at those NGB structures.

[fullmetal]

Not the same sport, but I'd say USA Volleyball operated in the same fashion, and I'm guessing most of the non-revenue sports are the same. They sponsored a series of regional and national events in which a portion of the revenues found its way to support USA Volleyball. So all those families that are seeking a college admissions edge are spending $5k to $10k per year on club sports are spending that money on travel, coach salaries, facility rentals and -- is kickback too strong a word? -- fees to the national organization.

La Mordida. It's the nature of the beast, one way they raise funds.

I wish that were a viable revenue stream for all sports since it's actually a relatively sustainable way to go.  But for rowing, you really cannot host that many events due to heavy logistical overhead (even the small/local regattas take a lot of effort).  Biathlon, marathon, cross-country skiing, etc are sports that have even greater overhead, and maybe I need to look at those NGB structures.

[BostonCard]

The end of squash and water polo is a good thing, actually, per this article (might be behind a paywall):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...mp/683764/

BC

[BostonCard]

The end of squash and water polo is a good thing, actually, per this article (might be behind a paywall):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...mp/683764/

BC

[CTcard]

The end of squash and water polo is a good thing, actually, per this article (might be behind a paywall):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...mp/683764/

BC

Since this is behind a paywall, I can only read the first two paragraphs. Already in the first paragraph I note it spouts common knowledge that is roughly correct but misleading. 

"A few sports at a few U.S. universities generate billions of dollars in total. The rest hemorrhage money." 
The statement is nominally true, as would be the statement that "Sports in the U.S. generate billions of dollars", but that isn't relevant to most universities. 
And with a generic "few sports" at "few universities" one can adjust the word few to make it all technically correct. 

However ... 
Football produces large revenues in total and requires large expenses everywhere. 
Basketball produces signficant revenues in total and requires large expenses. 
While it is impossible to exactly designate TV revenue to a particular sport, and AD budget statements are extremely suspect, serious estimates I have seen are that 20-30 football programs on their own at least break even* and possibly a few basketball programs. 
[* including designated donations]

Most football programs cost universities money, and most of those cost a lot of money. 
While essentially all niche sports cost money, most of those costs are small in comparison. 

The real subsidizers of most athletic programs are tuition dollars, mandatory student fees, and state appropriations for the general funds of unversities. 
By itself that isn't a problem. Lots of things universities do that aren't exactly providing education have a net cost - security, student health services, grounds upkeep, etc. 
The issue is the scale of the subsidy and how critical these items are to an institution's mission.  


The second paragraph has its own issues, but that's more than enough for now.

[CTcard]

The end of squash and water polo is a good thing, actually, per this article (might be behind a paywall):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...mp/683764/

BC

Since this is behind a paywall, I can only read the first two paragraphs. Already in the first paragraph I note it spouts common knowledge that is roughly correct but misleading. 

"A few sports at a few U.S. universities generate billions of dollars in total. The rest hemorrhage money." 
The statement is nominally true, as would be the statement that "Sports in the U.S. generate billions of dollars", but that isn't relevant to most universities. 
And with a generic "few sports" at "few universities" one can adjust the word few to make it all technically correct. 

However ... 
Football produces large revenues in total and requires large expenses everywhere. 
Basketball produces signficant revenues in total and requires large expenses. 
While it is impossible to exactly designate TV revenue to a particular sport, and AD budget statements are extremely suspect, serious estimates I have seen are that 20-30 football programs on their own at least break even* and possibly a few basketball programs. 
[* including designated donations]

Most football programs cost universities money, and most of those cost a lot of money. 
While essentially all niche sports cost money, most of those costs are small in comparison. 

The real subsidizers of most athletic programs are tuition dollars, mandatory student fees, and state appropriations for the general funds of unversities. 
By itself that isn't a problem. Lots of things universities do that aren't exactly providing education have a net cost - security, student health services, grounds upkeep, etc. 
The issue is the scale of the subsidy and how critical these items are to an institution's mission.  


The second paragraph has its own issues, but that's more than enough for now.

[BillBradley]

Are you assuming they won’t report third-party NIL payments to the Deloitte?  We will soon see how effective it is.

Looks like the answer to your question ChrisK is "not very". As suspected, the commission approving NIL deals doesn't seem to be weeding much out. 
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/stor...commission

[BillBradley]

Are you assuming they won’t report third-party NIL payments to the Deloitte?  We will soon see how effective it is.

Looks like the answer to your question ChrisK is "not very". As suspected, the commission approving NIL deals doesn't seem to be weeding much out. 
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/stor...commission

[M T]

Look what can happen if you don't have a football team...
   St. Mary's adds M&W Swimming  and M&W Water Polo
so they're up to 22 sports.

[M T]

Look what can happen if you don't have a football team...
   St. Mary's adds M&W Swimming  and M&W Water Polo
so they're up to 22 sports.

[Mick]

Look what can happen if you don't have a football team...
   St. Mary's adds M&W Swimming  and M&W Water Polo
so they're up to 22 sports.

22? I think they're at 20...which two am I missing?

1. Men's Baseball
   
2. Men's basketball
   
3. Men's cross country
   
4. Men's track and field
   
5. Men's golf
   
6. Men's soccer
   
7. Men's tennis
   
8. Men's water polo
   
9. Men's Swimming
   
10. Women's Swimming
    
11. Women's basketball
    
12. Women's beach vb
    
13. Women's cross country
    
14. Women's track and field
    
15. Women's rowing
    
16. Women's soccer
    
17. Women's softball
    
18. Women's tennis
    
19. Women's volleyball
    
20. Women's water polo
    

[Mick]

Look what can happen if you don't have a football team...
   St. Mary's adds M&W Swimming  and M&W Water Polo
so they're up to 22 sports.

22? I think they're at 20...which two am I missing?

1. Men's Baseball
   
2. Men's basketball
   
3. Men's cross country
   
4. Men's track and field
   
5. Men's golf
   
6. Men's soccer
   
7. Men's tennis
   
8. Men's water polo
   
9. Men's Swimming
   
10. Women's Swimming
    
11. Women's basketball
    
12. Women's beach vb
    
13. Women's cross country
    
14. Women's track and field
    
15. Women's rowing
    
16. Women's soccer
    
17. Women's softball
    
18. Women's tennis
    
19. Women's volleyball
    
20. Women's water polo
    

[M T]

Look what can happen if you don't have a football team...
   St. Mary's adds M&W Swimming  and M&W Water Polo
so they're up to 22 sports.

22? I think they're at 20...which two am I missing?

1. Men's Baseball
   
2. Men's basketball
   
3. Men's cross country
   
4. Men's track and field
   
5. Men's golf
   
6. Men's soccer
   
7. Men's tennis
   
8. Men's water polo
   
9. Men's Swimming
   
10. Women's Swimming
    
11. Women's basketball
    
12. Women's beach vb
    
13. Women's cross country
    
14. Women's track and field
    
15. Women's rowing
    
16. Women's soccer
    
17. Women's softball
    
18. Women's tennis
    
19. Women's volleyball
    
20. Women's water polo
    

22 is what the article said.  Their web site says 18, before the addition of 4 sport teams.

I suspect the difference is double counting T&F, which has an Indoor and Outdoor championship.

[M T]

Look what can happen if you don't have a football team...
   St. Mary's adds M&W Swimming  and M&W Water Polo
so they're up to 22 sports.

22? I think they're at 20...which two am I missing?

1. Men's Baseball
   
2. Men's basketball
   
3. Men's cross country
   
4. Men's track and field
   
5. Men's golf
   
6. Men's soccer
   
7. Men's tennis
   
8. Men's water polo
   
9. Men's Swimming
   
10. Women's Swimming
    
11. Women's basketball
    
12. Women's beach vb
    
13. Women's cross country
    
14. Women's track and field
    
15. Women's rowing
    
16. Women's soccer
    
17. Women's softball
    
18. Women's tennis
    
19. Women's volleyball
    
20. Women's water polo
    

22 is what the article said.  Their web site says 18, before the addition of 4 sport teams.

I suspect the difference is double counting T&F, which has an Indoor and Outdoor championship.

[Mick]

Look what can happen if you don't have a football team...
   St. Mary's adds M&W Swimming  and M&W Water Polo
so they're up to 22 sports.

22? I think they're at 20...which two am I missing?

1. Men's Baseball
   
2. Men's basketball
   
3. Men's cross country
   
4. Men's track and field
   
5. Men's golf
   
6. Men's soccer
   
7. Men's tennis
   
8. Men's water polo
   
9. Men's Swimming
   
10. Women's Swimming
    
11. Women's basketball
    
12. Women's beach vb
    
13. Women's cross country
    
14. Women's track and field
    
15. Women's rowing
    
16. Women's soccer
    
17. Women's softball
    
18. Women's tennis
    
19. Women's volleyball
    
20. Women's water polo
    

22 is what the article said.  Their web site says 18, before the addition of 4 sport teams.

I suspect the difference is double counting T&F, which has an Indoor and Outdoor championship.

Well, it's St. Mary's. Not surprising they have difficulty counting to 22...

SCU Mick...where the Broncos count T&F as one sport

[Mick]

Look what can happen if you don't have a football team...
   St. Mary's adds M&W Swimming  and M&W Water Polo
so they're up to 22 sports.

22? I think they're at 20...which two am I missing?

1. Men's Baseball
   
2. Men's basketball
   
3. Men's cross country
   
4. Men's track and field
   
5. Men's golf
   
6. Men's soccer
   
7. Men's tennis
   
8. Men's water polo
   
9. Men's Swimming
   
10. Women's Swimming
    
11. Women's basketball
    
12. Women's beach vb
    
13. Women's cross country
    
14. Women's track and field
    
15. Women's rowing
    
16. Women's soccer
    
17. Women's softball
    
18. Women's tennis
    
19. Women's volleyball
    
20. Women's water polo
    

22 is what the article said.  Their web site says 18, before the addition of 4 sport teams.

I suspect the difference is double counting T&F, which has an Indoor and Outdoor championship.

Well, it's St. Mary's. Not surprising they have difficulty counting to 22...

SCU Mick...where the Broncos count T&F as one sport

[Mick]

I know about the marketing collective, and I'm interested in the characterization of USA Fencing as an events company.  USA Fencing, according to the article, hosts a ton more events than other sports I'm familiar with.  I think the logistics of setting up a fencing event must be comparatively easy lol.

Not the same sport, but I'd say USA Volleyball operated in the same fashion, and I'm guessing most of the non-revenue sports are the same. They sponsored a series of regional and national events in which a portion of the revenues found its way to support USA Volleyball. So all those families that are seeking a college admissions edge are spending $5k to $10k per year on club sports are spending that money on travel, coach salaries, facility rentals and -- is kickback too strong a word? -- fees to the national organization.

La Mordida. It's the nature of the beast, one way they raise funds.

Organized club youth sports is growing like crazy.
The soaring price of youth sports: $50 to try out, $3,000 to play

My dad thought I was nuts to pay $7k a year for each kid to play club sports...and yet, it got both of them into an Ivy, and they both have successful, high-paying jobs that they wouldn't have had without the Ivy pedigree.

[Mick]

I know about the marketing collective, and I'm interested in the characterization of USA Fencing as an events company.  USA Fencing, according to the article, hosts a ton more events than other sports I'm familiar with.  I think the logistics of setting up a fencing event must be comparatively easy lol.

Not the same sport, but I'd say USA Volleyball operated in the same fashion, and I'm guessing most of the non-revenue sports are the same. They sponsored a series of regional and national events in which a portion of the revenues found its way to support USA Volleyball. So all those families that are seeking a college admissions edge are spending $5k to $10k per year on club sports are spending that money on travel, coach salaries, facility rentals and -- is kickback too strong a word? -- fees to the national organization.

La Mordida. It's the nature of the beast, one way they raise funds.

Organized club youth sports is growing like crazy.
The soaring price of youth sports: $50 to try out, $3,000 to play

My dad thought I was nuts to pay $7k a year for each kid to play club sports...and yet, it got both of them into an Ivy, and they both have successful, high-paying jobs that they wouldn't have had without the Ivy pedigree.

[BostonCard]

LOL, who could have possibly predicted this?

https://www.reuters.com/sports/report-wa...026-01-08/

The system is so ridiculous, that I’m looking forward to watching it implode.

BC

[BostonCard]

LOL, who could have possibly predicted this?

https://www.reuters.com/sports/report-wa...026-01-08/

The system is so ridiculous, that I’m looking forward to watching it implode.

BC

[fullmetal]

Organized club youth sports is growing like crazy.
The soaring price of youth sports: $50 to try out, $3,000 to play

What's crazy is how expensive normal sports are.  I can see to some extent why niche club sports for teens might be expensive: equipment, venue, coaching.  But for mainstream sports where the fixed/startup costs have long been amortized, whew.  As mentioned in the article, all the hallmarks of PE firms buying up leagues.  I wonder if the niche sports are in danger of such a takeover since the margins are already so small (and the target demographics are small).

[fullmetal]

Organized club youth sports is growing like crazy.
The soaring price of youth sports: $50 to try out, $3,000 to play

What's crazy is how expensive normal sports are.  I can see to some extent why niche club sports for teens might be expensive: equipment, venue, coaching.  But for mainstream sports where the fixed/startup costs have long been amortized, whew.  As mentioned in the article, all the hallmarks of PE firms buying up leagues.  I wonder if the niche sports are in danger of such a takeover since the margins are already so small (and the target demographics are small).

[BostonCard]

LOL, who could have possibly predicted this?

https://www.reuters.com/sports/report-wa...026-01-08/

The system is so ridiculous, that I’m looking forward to watching it implode.

BC

I guess contracts mean something after all. But of course, really hard to call college athletics anything other than professional-lite.


https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...washington

Gonna be an interesting locker room…

BC

[BostonCard]

LOL, who could have possibly predicted this?

https://www.reuters.com/sports/report-wa...026-01-08/

The system is so ridiculous, that I’m looking forward to watching it implode.

BC

I guess contracts mean something after all. But of course, really hard to call college athletics anything other than professional-lite.


https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...washington

Gonna be an interesting locker room…

BC