[Spiny_Norman]

How much did I want to see UConn lose?  They forced me to root for Notre Dame last night.  Almost caused my head to explode.

I loathe Domer football so much that I extend odious feelings to other ND teams.  But I cannot root for the Evil Geno Empire.  Gaaaaaaa!!

[Spiny_Norman]

How much did I want to see UConn lose?  They forced me to root for Notre Dame last night.  Almost caused my head to explode.

I loathe Domer football so much that I extend odious feelings to other ND teams.  But I cannot root for the Evil Geno Empire.  Gaaaaaaa!!

[Cardinal96]

[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=9813.msg87422#msg87422 date=1397050043]
I have come around on Auriemma.  At first, I couldn't stand him.  Yes, he is arrogant and can be an @ss.  But this prick has coached UConn to play basketball at another level in the womens' game. 

So what?  Even if you're an incredibly talented, hardworking, successful @ss, you're still an @ss.  I hate people like that.  And their success doesn't make me hate them any less (or any more).

I've heard the argument that a personality like that is necessary to be that successful, but it's just not true.  As an athlete, I competed against (and lost to) a number of people who are Olympic medalists.  Some were nice people, and some weren't.  In my career, I've known a substantial number of Nobel Prize winners.  Again, they run the range from arrogant SOBs to the nicest people you'd ever meet, and everywhere in between.  (To pick a Stanford example, Ken Arrow is both utterly brilliant -- someone who stands out as extraordinarily successful even among Economics Nobel winners -- and one of the nicest people around.)
[/quote]

5 years ago I would have agreed with you.  The older I get, the more respect I have for people who are straightforward and honest.  It is not polite to tell everyone your team is in another league.  But he said it.  And he was 100% correct.  They beat every team by double digits this year.  When I have seen UConn lose, I haven't seen Geno make excuses.  He is just as candid about his team's weaknesses as he is with respect to their strengths.

In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB".  My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

[Cardinal96]

[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=9813.msg87422#msg87422 date=1397050043]
I have come around on Auriemma.  At first, I couldn't stand him.  Yes, he is arrogant and can be an @ss.  But this prick has coached UConn to play basketball at another level in the womens' game. 

So what?  Even if you're an incredibly talented, hardworking, successful @ss, you're still an @ss.  I hate people like that.  And their success doesn't make me hate them any less (or any more).

I've heard the argument that a personality like that is necessary to be that successful, but it's just not true.  As an athlete, I competed against (and lost to) a number of people who are Olympic medalists.  Some were nice people, and some weren't.  In my career, I've known a substantial number of Nobel Prize winners.  Again, they run the range from arrogant SOBs to the nicest people you'd ever meet, and everywhere in between.  (To pick a Stanford example, Ken Arrow is both utterly brilliant -- someone who stands out as extraordinarily successful even among Economics Nobel winners -- and one of the nicest people around.)
[/quote]

5 years ago I would have agreed with you.  The older I get, the more respect I have for people who are straightforward and honest.  It is not polite to tell everyone your team is in another league.  But he said it.  And he was 100% correct.  They beat every team by double digits this year.  When I have seen UConn lose, I haven't seen Geno make excuses.  He is just as candid about his team's weaknesses as he is with respect to their strengths.

In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB".  My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

[Mick]

In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB". My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

The two things that amaze me is (1) how often that is true in real life and (2) how few people understand and appreciate that the drive and the achievement walk hand in hand.

[Mick]

In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB". My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

The two things that amaze me is (1) how often that is true in real life and (2) how few people understand and appreciate that the drive and the achievement walk hand in hand.

[CowboyIndian]

Hey Geno....drive this!

[CowboyIndian]

Hey Geno....drive this!

[terry]

[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=9813.msg87525#msg87525 date=1397145260]
In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB". My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

The two things that amaze me is (1) how often that is true in real life and (2) how few people understand and appreciate that the drive and the achievement walk hand in hand.
[/quote]

See Harbaugh, Jim.

[terry]

[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=9813.msg87525#msg87525 date=1397145260]
In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB". My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

The two things that amaze me is (1) how often that is true in real life and (2) how few people understand and appreciate that the drive and the achievement walk hand in hand.
[/quote]

See Harbaugh, Jim.

[washingtonismoney]

The other version of this is that "nice guys finish last." But I don't think either part of the idea -- that the jerks will finish first and the nice shall inherit the caboose -- is correct. Instead it's one of those heuristics -- we would like nice guys to finish first (or, rather, we believe that it's more socially acceptable to believe that nice guys finish first) -- and so jerks finishing first becomes notable and we exaggerate its frequencies. Jerks who finish last are of no real consequence and so are non-notable.

Still, I've observed some nice guys in positions of achievement and power and some jerks in position of achievement and power. My guess is no correlation. To be fair, that may be only slightly more comforting than the idea that the nice and the virtuous are destined to wither.

(Of course, there are a few caveats. One is that achievement and power change people, frequently in some not-so-nice ways. So the nice-guys-finish-last idea may be confusing cause with effect. Second, I think people have a bad definition of "nice." Most of the time people say "nice" when they're talking about someone who's so boring and bland that they have no real descriptors; not wanting to be mean -- or wanting to be "nice" -- they just reach for a somewhat bland compliment, and then confuse themselves that that's what they meant by "nice" all along. In reality really nice people are, well, really rare, like the vast majority of interesting compliments. Not everyone is smart, not everyone is funny and so not everyone is nice too. But I hear the third compliment far more than the first two. It's kind of meaningless at this point.)

[washingtonismoney]

The other version of this is that "nice guys finish last." But I don't think either part of the idea -- that the jerks will finish first and the nice shall inherit the caboose -- is correct. Instead it's one of those heuristics -- we would like nice guys to finish first (or, rather, we believe that it's more socially acceptable to believe that nice guys finish first) -- and so jerks finishing first becomes notable and we exaggerate its frequencies. Jerks who finish last are of no real consequence and so are non-notable.

Still, I've observed some nice guys in positions of achievement and power and some jerks in position of achievement and power. My guess is no correlation. To be fair, that may be only slightly more comforting than the idea that the nice and the virtuous are destined to wither.

(Of course, there are a few caveats. One is that achievement and power change people, frequently in some not-so-nice ways. So the nice-guys-finish-last idea may be confusing cause with effect. Second, I think people have a bad definition of "nice." Most of the time people say "nice" when they're talking about someone who's so boring and bland that they have no real descriptors; not wanting to be mean -- or wanting to be "nice" -- they just reach for a somewhat bland compliment, and then confuse themselves that that's what they meant by "nice" all along. In reality really nice people are, well, really rare, like the vast majority of interesting compliments. Not everyone is smart, not everyone is funny and so not everyone is nice too. But I hear the third compliment far more than the first two. It's kind of meaningless at this point.)

[CTcard]

In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB".  My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

From relatively close by, that appears to roughly be the case.

Another interesting aspect of Geno's and UConn's success is that for whatever reason, be it his personality or the rather strong "push" he gives his team towards perfection, UConn runs through a lot of players. They are almost perennially described as a team that is not deep. [For example, most of this year's tournament they used six players. Their entire listed roster is only 11 players. http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-bas...l-mtt.html] This despite also almost perennially having somewhere between the top and almost the top recruiting classes.

Now as far as I can tell this is not Geno directly running players off. And it's not academically failing out - the UConn women's team, unlike the men's, has respectable GSR and APR rates. However, it appears that he works the team relentlessly and only some can take it. The rest retire or transfer. For those that make it through it seems to make them very good players. However, as a team strategy that only gives good results if you are working from an initially very deep pool.

[CTcard]

In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB".  My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

From relatively close by, that appears to roughly be the case.

Another interesting aspect of Geno's and UConn's success is that for whatever reason, be it his personality or the rather strong "push" he gives his team towards perfection, UConn runs through a lot of players. They are almost perennially described as a team that is not deep. [For example, most of this year's tournament they used six players. Their entire listed roster is only 11 players. http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-bas...l-mtt.html] This despite also almost perennially having somewhere between the top and almost the top recruiting classes.

Now as far as I can tell this is not Geno directly running players off. And it's not academically failing out - the UConn women's team, unlike the men's, has respectable GSR and APR rates. However, it appears that he works the team relentlessly and only some can take it. The rest retire or transfer. For those that make it through it seems to make them very good players. However, as a team strategy that only gives good results if you are working from an initially very deep pool.

[StanFan88]

The other version of this is that "nice guys finish last."

There is a Grand Canyon between "nice guys" and Auriemma.

[StanFan88]

The other version of this is that "nice guys finish last."

There is a Grand Canyon between "nice guys" and Auriemma.

[TreeWeird]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=9813.msg87558#msg87558 date=1397158755]
[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=9813.msg87525#msg87525 date=1397145260]
In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB". My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

The two things that amaze me is (1) how often that is true in real life and (2) how few people understand and appreciate that the drive and the achievement walk hand in hand.
[/quote]

See Harbaugh, Jim.
[/quote]

But See Shaw, David. (I forget my blue book citation rules)

[TreeWeird]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=9813.msg87558#msg87558 date=1397158755]
[quote author=NYCCardinalFan link=topic=9813.msg87525#msg87525 date=1397145260]
In Geno's case, I don't think he would be as successful if he were not such a "SOB". My read is that what drives him to push his team to perfection is the same thing that drives the behavior that gets on some folks' nerves.

The two things that amaze me is (1) how often that is true in real life and (2) how few people understand and appreciate that the drive and the achievement walk hand in hand.
[/quote]

See Harbaugh, Jim.
[/quote]

But See Shaw, David. (I forget my blue book citation rules)