[gailtate]

Notre Dame, Stanford:

How long ago does Conrad Ukropina’s season-ending field goal against the Fighting Irish feel? One could make a very strong argument that the Cardinal was right at the same level as Notre Dame as a program at that moment. Since 2015, here is how they compare: 

Records: 
Notre Dame 37-14
Stanford 32-20
AP Final Ranks ‘16-’19:
Notre Dame: NR, 11, 5, 12
Stanford: 12, 20, NR, NR.
(Courtesy R.J. Abeytia)

Brian Kelly, in the wake of a 4-8 season in 2015, cleaned house and doubled-down on recruiting. Then there's our "What, Me Worry?" guy.

Gail, I suggest you immediately start a petition to get Shaw fired .  If you have a lot of money use it.  Because your obsession is obvious.  Post after Post after Post.  Saying essentially the same thing.  We get it, he can’t coach his way out of a paper bag.  Whose next. I’m sure that whomever you choose will return Stanford to its pre Harbaugh/Shaw prominence.

Lex, I then suggest that you avoid my tiresome, repetitive, etc. etc, posts, or be sure to do one or more of the following i(f you insist on subjecting yourself to such aggravation-driven heartburn:

1. wearing looser clothing.
   
2. standing up straight.
   
3. elevating your upper body.
   
4. mixing baking soda with water.
   
5. trying ginger.
   
6. taking licorice supplements.
   
7. sipping apple cider vinegar.
   
8. chewing gum to help dilute acid.
   

And while you're at it, take a flyin' leap.

[gailtate]

Notre Dame, Stanford:

How long ago does Conrad Ukropina’s season-ending field goal against the Fighting Irish feel? One could make a very strong argument that the Cardinal was right at the same level as Notre Dame as a program at that moment. Since 2015, here is how they compare: 

Records: 
Notre Dame 37-14
Stanford 32-20
AP Final Ranks ‘16-’19:
Notre Dame: NR, 11, 5, 12
Stanford: 12, 20, NR, NR.
(Courtesy R.J. Abeytia)

Brian Kelly, in the wake of a 4-8 season in 2015, cleaned house and doubled-down on recruiting. Then there's our "What, Me Worry?" guy.

Gail, I suggest you immediately start a petition to get Shaw fired .  If you have a lot of money use it.  Because your obsession is obvious.  Post after Post after Post.  Saying essentially the same thing.  We get it, he can’t coach his way out of a paper bag.  Whose next. I’m sure that whomever you choose will return Stanford to its pre Harbaugh/Shaw prominence.

Lex, I then suggest that you avoid my tiresome, repetitive, etc. etc, posts, or be sure to do one or more of the following i(f you insist on subjecting yourself to such aggravation-driven heartburn:

1. wearing looser clothing.
   
2. standing up straight.
   
3. elevating your upper body.
   
4. mixing baking soda with water.
   
5. trying ginger.
   
6. taking licorice supplements.
   
7. sipping apple cider vinegar.
   
8. chewing gum to help dilute acid.
   

And while you're at it, take a flyin' leap.

[VB Card]

My biggest beef with Shaw's recruiting is his inability to recruit redshirt seniors to return for their 5th year.  Last season, we had almost no 5th year seniors with guys like Barton et al retiring or transferring. This year, we have 11 former starters who are either playing for other teams (Eboh, Hattis, Costello, Hamilton, Powell, Williams, Swann) or not playing this season (Little, Adeebo, Pryts, Head). This doesn't count the non-starters who transferred out (Stewart, Speights, et al).  We didn't need or want all of those guys back and you can't fault Costello, Adeebo and Little who made NFL decisions, but this team would sure look different if we had 6 more 5th year seniors with 2 more experienced OL, 2 more DL, a ILB and starting CB. Those are positions of precarious depth that for various reasons our program wasn't attractive enough to retain those players. It bums me out and in my opinion not a good reflection of the state of the program.  Other programs don't have that kind of inability to retain 5th year seniors.  People will respond that we didn't have scholarships for them all and that they didn't get into grad school at Stanford, but the reality is most of them made football decisions and decided they were better off elsewhere and we had room for Swann, Williams, Hattis, Hamilton, Eboh, Pryts and Head who all would have seen playing time and most of them would have been starters.

 

Is it really Shaw's fault or is it that maybe Stanford's grad programs are the hardest to get into out of any other FBS school?

[VB Card]

My biggest beef with Shaw's recruiting is his inability to recruit redshirt seniors to return for their 5th year.  Last season, we had almost no 5th year seniors with guys like Barton et al retiring or transferring. This year, we have 11 former starters who are either playing for other teams (Eboh, Hattis, Costello, Hamilton, Powell, Williams, Swann) or not playing this season (Little, Adeebo, Pryts, Head). This doesn't count the non-starters who transferred out (Stewart, Speights, et al).  We didn't need or want all of those guys back and you can't fault Costello, Adeebo and Little who made NFL decisions, but this team would sure look different if we had 6 more 5th year seniors with 2 more experienced OL, 2 more DL, a ILB and starting CB. Those are positions of precarious depth that for various reasons our program wasn't attractive enough to retain those players. It bums me out and in my opinion not a good reflection of the state of the program.  Other programs don't have that kind of inability to retain 5th year seniors.  People will respond that we didn't have scholarships for them all and that they didn't get into grad school at Stanford, but the reality is most of them made football decisions and decided they were better off elsewhere and we had room for Swann, Williams, Hattis, Hamilton, Eboh, Pryts and Head who all would have seen playing time and most of them would have been starters.

 

Is it really Shaw's fault or is it that maybe Stanford's grad programs are the hardest to get into out of any other FBS school?

[Farm93]

My biggest beef with Shaw's recruiting is his inability to recruit redshirt seniors to return for their 5th year.  Last season, we had almost no 5th year seniors with guys like Barton et al retiring or transferring. This year, we have 11 former starters who are either playing for other teams (Eboh, Hattis, Costello, Hamilton, Powell, Williams, Swann) or not playing this season (Little, Adeebo, Pryts, Head). This doesn't count the non-starters who transferred out (Stewart, Speights, et al).  We didn't need or want all of those guys back and you can't fault Costello, Adeebo and Little who made NFL decisions, but this team would sure look different if we had 6 more 5th year seniors with 2 more experienced OL, 2 more DL, a ILB and starting CB. Those are positions of precarious depth that for various reasons our program wasn't attractive enough to retain those players. It bums me out and in my opinion not a good reflection of the state of the program.  Other programs don't have that kind of inability to retain 5th year seniors.  People will respond that we didn't have scholarships for them all and that they didn't get into grad school at Stanford, but the reality is most of them made football decisions and decided they were better off elsewhere and we had room for Swann, Williams, Hattis, Hamilton, Eboh, Pryts and Head who all would have seen playing time and most of them would have been starters.

 

Is it really Shaw's fault or is it that maybe Stanford's grad programs are the hardest to get into out of any other FBS school?

The grad transfer is going to be a long term challenge.

Players come for a Stanford degree, and they get that degree.  
If they have NFL aspirations there can be a lot of reasons to go somewhere else for a year.  
Easier academic load, better CFP prospects, opportunity to show an ability to thrive, or thrive in a different system, play a year closer to home.   The list goes on and on.

Getting a player into Stanford for one year feels like a tough deal.   The coaching staff may need to spend a lot of time to potentially get a non-starter from another program for a single year.   There are probably some times it makes sense and it might be easier than JuCos.   Still, would think most Stanford programs will need to get and succeed by finding qualified incoming freshmen.  

I think Shaw has done the right thing by publicly supporting those that want to test the waters in other places because that approach probably reassures....potential incoming freshmen.

[Farm93]

My biggest beef with Shaw's recruiting is his inability to recruit redshirt seniors to return for their 5th year.  Last season, we had almost no 5th year seniors with guys like Barton et al retiring or transferring. This year, we have 11 former starters who are either playing for other teams (Eboh, Hattis, Costello, Hamilton, Powell, Williams, Swann) or not playing this season (Little, Adeebo, Pryts, Head). This doesn't count the non-starters who transferred out (Stewart, Speights, et al).  We didn't need or want all of those guys back and you can't fault Costello, Adeebo and Little who made NFL decisions, but this team would sure look different if we had 6 more 5th year seniors with 2 more experienced OL, 2 more DL, a ILB and starting CB. Those are positions of precarious depth that for various reasons our program wasn't attractive enough to retain those players. It bums me out and in my opinion not a good reflection of the state of the program.  Other programs don't have that kind of inability to retain 5th year seniors.  People will respond that we didn't have scholarships for them all and that they didn't get into grad school at Stanford, but the reality is most of them made football decisions and decided they were better off elsewhere and we had room for Swann, Williams, Hattis, Hamilton, Eboh, Pryts and Head who all would have seen playing time and most of them would have been starters.

 

Is it really Shaw's fault or is it that maybe Stanford's grad programs are the hardest to get into out of any other FBS school?

The grad transfer is going to be a long term challenge.

Players come for a Stanford degree, and they get that degree.  
If they have NFL aspirations there can be a lot of reasons to go somewhere else for a year.  
Easier academic load, better CFP prospects, opportunity to show an ability to thrive, or thrive in a different system, play a year closer to home.   The list goes on and on.

Getting a player into Stanford for one year feels like a tough deal.   The coaching staff may need to spend a lot of time to potentially get a non-starter from another program for a single year.   There are probably some times it makes sense and it might be easier than JuCos.   Still, would think most Stanford programs will need to get and succeed by finding qualified incoming freshmen.  

I think Shaw has done the right thing by publicly supporting those that want to test the waters in other places because that approach probably reassures....potential incoming freshmen.

[oregontim]

I'm going to chime in here as alumnus of both, and a longtime fan of both Stanford and Notre Dame.

Neutral or biased? I'm not sure. Notre Dame was my first degree, undergrad, 50 years ago. One of my brothers graduated there, and one of my daughters graduated from Notre Dame. Stanford for me was an MBA 11 years later. One of my daughters graduated from Stanford, and my dad taught in the medical school as an adjunct. And I grew up in Los Altos, going to Stanford games regularly throughout my childhood. I watched John Brodie way back when.

I'm not claiming any special insight as an alum of both. This is an opportunity to voice some long-held opinions about college football and football coaches. All of this just opinions.

1. With college-level coaches it ought to be a hierarchy of values, in which winning isn't everything. The coach of the football team isn't just about the team and the wins; it ought to be about what the institution values.
   
2. The ideal is a football coach who stands for integrity, work effort, and honor; but also wins. During my years at Notre Dame we had Ara Parseghian, who excelled at football and as a leader. At Stanford we had Bill Walsh, who, like Parseghian, was both.
   
3. I've disliked Brian Kelly since the first time I saw him humiliate a player on national TV, shouting abuse at a 20-year-old boy from close range. He does that less these days, but he still does it. If I were in charge, that behavior (and several other questionable decisions, like the death of a kid who was filming practice for Kelly during high winds; and some recruitment ethics questions) would rule him out. Even if ND were to win a national championship, I'd still rather have David Shaw than Brian Kelly.
   
4. This is not just a fair weather opinion. I've stood for this point of view even when my teams weren't winning. I've swallowed the bad years when the coach wasn't an ahole in public. For example, Lou Holtz also won, but I was never proud of him. 
   
5. That many years later, I hated ND for its dealings with Tyrone Willingham. When they fired him after only two years to get Charlie Weiss. I would have hated that even if Weiss had done well. He didn't. I still resent that ND decision.
   
6. The ND community overvalues football, IMO. The campus atmosphere on Saturdays at ND is entirely, like 100%, about the game. Nothing else matters to anybody. The place of the game at Stanford is more appropriate. Let the football fans (me included) focus on football; football is a sport, not a symbol of ultimate value. And I love football. I even played in the intramural league at ND, which is full pads and full tackle football. And I love watching games.
   
7. ND has a recruiting advantage over Stanford because of its tradition of football, which I hope I've made clear is not necessarily the best thing for an educational institution, but does give it an advantage competing for the best high school players. I see stats that indicate that players recruited by both schools tend to go to Stanford. That's what I'd want for a grandson of mine who was in that position. But the stats don't show how many players across the country want to go to ND, compared to those who want to go to Stanford. ND is perceived to be a better path to the pros. ND and the golden dome, and touchdown Jesus, all stand for football. Stanford stands for education, and, the last couple decades, Silicon Valley. I like the latter better.
   
8. I'd like David Shaw to get a new offensive coordinator and listen to him or her. I'd like him to channel Bill Walsh, with his innovative short-pass screen-pass offense, updated to 2020. I still shudder to think of that 2012 Fiesta Bowl when we sat down for a field goal with a minute still to play. I like the man, and what he stands for; but not his football strategy.
   
9. I'd like ND to let Brian Kelly go.
   

[oregontim]

I'm going to chime in here as alumnus of both, and a longtime fan of both Stanford and Notre Dame.

Neutral or biased? I'm not sure. Notre Dame was my first degree, undergrad, 50 years ago. One of my brothers graduated there, and one of my daughters graduated from Notre Dame. Stanford for me was an MBA 11 years later. One of my daughters graduated from Stanford, and my dad taught in the medical school as an adjunct. And I grew up in Los Altos, going to Stanford games regularly throughout my childhood. I watched John Brodie way back when.

I'm not claiming any special insight as an alum of both. This is an opportunity to voice some long-held opinions about college football and football coaches. All of this just opinions.

1. With college-level coaches it ought to be a hierarchy of values, in which winning isn't everything. The coach of the football team isn't just about the team and the wins; it ought to be about what the institution values.
   
2. The ideal is a football coach who stands for integrity, work effort, and honor; but also wins. During my years at Notre Dame we had Ara Parseghian, who excelled at football and as a leader. At Stanford we had Bill Walsh, who, like Parseghian, was both.
   
3. I've disliked Brian Kelly since the first time I saw him humiliate a player on national TV, shouting abuse at a 20-year-old boy from close range. He does that less these days, but he still does it. If I were in charge, that behavior (and several other questionable decisions, like the death of a kid who was filming practice for Kelly during high winds; and some recruitment ethics questions) would rule him out. Even if ND were to win a national championship, I'd still rather have David Shaw than Brian Kelly.
   
4. This is not just a fair weather opinion. I've stood for this point of view even when my teams weren't winning. I've swallowed the bad years when the coach wasn't an ahole in public. For example, Lou Holtz also won, but I was never proud of him. 
   
5. That many years later, I hated ND for its dealings with Tyrone Willingham. When they fired him after only two years to get Charlie Weiss. I would have hated that even if Weiss had done well. He didn't. I still resent that ND decision.
   
6. The ND community overvalues football, IMO. The campus atmosphere on Saturdays at ND is entirely, like 100%, about the game. Nothing else matters to anybody. The place of the game at Stanford is more appropriate. Let the football fans (me included) focus on football; football is a sport, not a symbol of ultimate value. And I love football. I even played in the intramural league at ND, which is full pads and full tackle football. And I love watching games.
   
7. ND has a recruiting advantage over Stanford because of its tradition of football, which I hope I've made clear is not necessarily the best thing for an educational institution, but does give it an advantage competing for the best high school players. I see stats that indicate that players recruited by both schools tend to go to Stanford. That's what I'd want for a grandson of mine who was in that position. But the stats don't show how many players across the country want to go to ND, compared to those who want to go to Stanford. ND is perceived to be a better path to the pros. ND and the golden dome, and touchdown Jesus, all stand for football. Stanford stands for education, and, the last couple decades, Silicon Valley. I like the latter better.
   
8. I'd like David Shaw to get a new offensive coordinator and listen to him or her. I'd like him to channel Bill Walsh, with his innovative short-pass screen-pass offense, updated to 2020. I still shudder to think of that 2012 Fiesta Bowl when we sat down for a field goal with a minute still to play. I like the man, and what he stands for; but not his football strategy.
   
9. I'd like ND to let Brian Kelly go.
   

[gailtate]

I'm going to chime in here as alumnus of both, and a longtime fan of both Stanford and Notre Dame.

Neutral or biased? I'm not sure. Notre Dame was my first degree, undergrad, 50 years ago. One of my brothers graduated there, and one of my daughters graduated from Notre Dame. Stanford for me was an MBA 11 years later. One of my daughters graduated from Stanford, and my dad taught in the medical school as an adjunct. And I grew up in Los Altos, going to Stanford games regularly throughout my childhood. I watched John Brodie way back when.

I'm not claiming any special insight as an alum of both. This is an opportunity to voice some long-held opinions about college football and football coaches. All of this just opinions.

1. With college-level coaches it ought to be a hierarchy of values, in which winning isn't everything. The coach of the football team isn't just about the team and the wins; it ought to be about what the institution values.
   
2. The ideal is a football coach who stands for integrity, work effort, and honor; but also wins. During my years at Notre Dame we had Ara Parseghian, who excelled at football and as a leader. At Stanford we had Bill Walsh, who, like Parseghian, was both.
   
3. I've disliked Brian Kelly since the first time I saw him humiliate a player on national TV, shouting abuse at a 20-year-old boy from close range. He does that less these days, but he still does it. If I were in charge, that behavior (and several other questionable decisions, like the death of a kid who was filming practice for Kelly during high winds; and some recruitment ethics questions) would rule him out. Even if ND were to win a national championship, I'd still rather have David Shaw than Brian Kelly.
   
4. This is not just a fair weather opinion. I've stood for this point of view even when my teams weren't winning. I've swallowed the bad years when the coach wasn't an ahole in public. For example, Lou Holtz also won, but I was never proud of him. 
   
5. That many years later, I hated ND for its dealings with Tyrone Willingham. When they fired him after only two years to get Charlie Weiss. I would have hated that even if Weiss had done well. He didn't. I still resent that ND decision.
   
6. The ND community overvalues football, IMO. The campus atmosphere on Saturdays at ND is entirely, like 100%, about the game. Nothing else matters to anybody. The place of the game at Stanford is more appropriate. Let the football fans (me included) focus on football; football is a sport, not a symbol of ultimate value. And I love football. I even played in the intramural league at ND, which is full pads and full tackle football. And I love watching games.
   
7. ND has a recruiting advantage over Stanford because of its tradition of football, which I hope I've made clear is not necessarily the best thing for an educational institution, but does give it an advantage competing for the best high school players. I see stats that indicate that players recruited by both schools tend to go to Stanford. That's what I'd want for a grandson of mine who was in that position. But the stats don't show how many players across the country want to go to ND, compared to those who want to go to Stanford. ND is perceived to be a better path to the pros. ND and the golden dome, and touchdown Jesus, all stand for football. Stanford stands for education, and, the last couple decades, Silicon Valley. I like the latter better.
   
8. I'd like David Shaw to get a new offensive coordinator and listen to him or her. I'd like him to channel Bill Walsh, with his innovative short-pass screen-pass offense, updated to 2020. I still shudder to think of that 2012 Fiesta Bowl when we sat down for a field goal with a minute still to play. I like the man, and what he stands for; but not his football strategy.
   
9. I'd like ND to let Brian Kelly go.
   

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

[gailtate]

I'm going to chime in here as alumnus of both, and a longtime fan of both Stanford and Notre Dame.

Neutral or biased? I'm not sure. Notre Dame was my first degree, undergrad, 50 years ago. One of my brothers graduated there, and one of my daughters graduated from Notre Dame. Stanford for me was an MBA 11 years later. One of my daughters graduated from Stanford, and my dad taught in the medical school as an adjunct. And I grew up in Los Altos, going to Stanford games regularly throughout my childhood. I watched John Brodie way back when.

I'm not claiming any special insight as an alum of both. This is an opportunity to voice some long-held opinions about college football and football coaches. All of this just opinions.

1. With college-level coaches it ought to be a hierarchy of values, in which winning isn't everything. The coach of the football team isn't just about the team and the wins; it ought to be about what the institution values.
   
2. The ideal is a football coach who stands for integrity, work effort, and honor; but also wins. During my years at Notre Dame we had Ara Parseghian, who excelled at football and as a leader. At Stanford we had Bill Walsh, who, like Parseghian, was both.
   
3. I've disliked Brian Kelly since the first time I saw him humiliate a player on national TV, shouting abuse at a 20-year-old boy from close range. He does that less these days, but he still does it. If I were in charge, that behavior (and several other questionable decisions, like the death of a kid who was filming practice for Kelly during high winds; and some recruitment ethics questions) would rule him out. Even if ND were to win a national championship, I'd still rather have David Shaw than Brian Kelly.
   
4. This is not just a fair weather opinion. I've stood for this point of view even when my teams weren't winning. I've swallowed the bad years when the coach wasn't an ahole in public. For example, Lou Holtz also won, but I was never proud of him. 
   
5. That many years later, I hated ND for its dealings with Tyrone Willingham. When they fired him after only two years to get Charlie Weiss. I would have hated that even if Weiss had done well. He didn't. I still resent that ND decision.
   
6. The ND community overvalues football, IMO. The campus atmosphere on Saturdays at ND is entirely, like 100%, about the game. Nothing else matters to anybody. The place of the game at Stanford is more appropriate. Let the football fans (me included) focus on football; football is a sport, not a symbol of ultimate value. And I love football. I even played in the intramural league at ND, which is full pads and full tackle football. And I love watching games.
   
7. ND has a recruiting advantage over Stanford because of its tradition of football, which I hope I've made clear is not necessarily the best thing for an educational institution, but does give it an advantage competing for the best high school players. I see stats that indicate that players recruited by both schools tend to go to Stanford. That's what I'd want for a grandson of mine who was in that position. But the stats don't show how many players across the country want to go to ND, compared to those who want to go to Stanford. ND is perceived to be a better path to the pros. ND and the golden dome, and touchdown Jesus, all stand for football. Stanford stands for education, and, the last couple decades, Silicon Valley. I like the latter better.
   
8. I'd like David Shaw to get a new offensive coordinator and listen to him or her. I'd like him to channel Bill Walsh, with his innovative short-pass screen-pass offense, updated to 2020. I still shudder to think of that 2012 Fiesta Bowl when we sat down for a field goal with a minute still to play. I like the man, and what he stands for; but not his football strategy.
   
9. I'd like ND to let Brian Kelly go.
   

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

[lex24]

My biggest beef with Shaw's recruiting is his inability to recruit redshirt seniors to return for their 5th year.  Last season, we had almost no 5th year seniors with guys like Barton et al retiring or transferring. This year, we have 11 former starters who are either playing for other teams (Eboh, Hattis, Costello, Hamilton, Powell, Williams, Swann) or not playing this season (Little, Adeebo, Pryts, Head). This doesn't count the non-starters who transferred out (Stewart, Speights, et al).  We didn't need or want all of those guys back and you can't fault Costello, Adeebo and Little who made NFL decisions, but this team would sure look different if we had 6 more 5th year seniors with 2 more experienced OL, 2 more DL, a ILB and starting CB. Those are positions of precarious depth that for various reasons our program wasn't attractive enough to retain those players. It bums me out and in my opinion not a good reflection of the state of the program.  Other programs don't have that kind of inability to retain 5th year seniors.  People will respond that we didn't have scholarships for them all and that they didn't get into grad school at Stanford, but the reality is most of them made football decisions and decided they were better off elsewhere and we had room for Swann, Williams, Hattis, Hamilton, Eboh, Pryts and Head who all would have seen playing time and most of them would have been starters.

No idea why they left.  Could be program related.  Could be grad school related. To me the fault/problem lies at the other end.  There simply is no reason to redshirt anymore.  If the guy can help, get him on the field.

---

I'm going to chime in here as alumnus of both, and a longtime fan of both Stanford and Notre Dame.

Neutral or biased? I'm not sure. Notre Dame was my first degree, undergrad, 50 years ago. One of my brothers graduated there, and one of my daughters graduated from Notre Dame. Stanford for me was an MBA 11 years later. One of my daughters graduated from Stanford, and my dad taught in the medical school as an adjunct. And I grew up in Los Altos, going to Stanford games regularly throughout my childhood. I watched John Brodie way back when.

I'm not claiming any special insight as an alum of both. This is an opportunity to voice some long-held opinions about college football and football coaches. All of this just opinions.

1. With college-level coaches it ought to be a hierarchy of values, in which winning isn't everything. The coach of the football team isn't just about the team and the wins; it ought to be about what the institution values.
   
2. The ideal is a football coach who stands for integrity, work effort, and honor; but also wins. During my years at Notre Dame we had Ara Parseghian, who excelled at football and as a leader. At Stanford we had Bill Walsh, who, like Parseghian, was both.
   
3. I've disliked Brian Kelly since the first time I saw him humiliate a player on national TV, shouting abuse at a 20-year-old boy from close range. He does that less these days, but he still does it. If I were in charge, that behavior (and several other questionable decisions, like the death of a kid who was filming practice for Kelly during high winds; and some recruitment ethics questions) would rule him out. Even if ND were to win a national championship, I'd still rather have David Shaw than Brian Kelly.
   
4. This is not just a fair weather opinion. I've stood for this point of view even when my teams weren't winning. I've swallowed the bad years when the coach wasn't an ahole in public. For example, Lou Holtz also won, but I was never proud of him. 
   
5. That many years later, I hated ND for its dealings with Tyrone Willingham. When they fired him after only two years to get Charlie Weiss. I would have hated that even if Weiss had done well. He didn't. I still resent that ND decision.
   
6. The ND community overvalues football, IMO. The campus atmosphere on Saturdays at ND is entirely, like 100%, about the game. Nothing else matters to anybody. The place of the game at Stanford is more appropriate. Let the football fans (me included) focus on football; football is a sport, not a symbol of ultimate value. And I love football. I even played in the intramural league at ND, which is full pads and full tackle football. And I love watching games.
   
7. ND has a recruiting advantage over Stanford because of its tradition of football, which I hope I've made clear is not necessarily the best thing for an educational institution, but does give it an advantage competing for the best high school players. I see stats that indicate that players recruited by both schools tend to go to Stanford. That's what I'd want for a grandson of mine who was in that position. But the stats don't show how many players across the country want to go to ND, compared to those who want to go to Stanford. ND is perceived to be a better path to the pros. ND and the golden dome, and touchdown Jesus, all stand for football. Stanford stands for education, and, the last couple decades, Silicon Valley. I like the latter better.
   
8. I'd like David Shaw to get a new offensive coordinator and listen to him or her. I'd like him to channel Bill Walsh, with his innovative short-pass screen-pass offense, updated to 2020. I still shudder to think of that 2012 Fiesta Bowl when we sat down for a field goal with a minute still to play. I like the man, and what he stands for; but not his football strategy.
   
9. I'd like ND to let Brian Kelly go.
   

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

Seems there are many Knights on this board..... (Eagles now.....)

---

Notre Dame, Stanford:

How long ago does Conrad Ukropina’s season-ending field goal against the Fighting Irish feel? One could make a very strong argument that the Cardinal was right at the same level as Notre Dame as a program at that moment. Since 2015, here is how they compare: 

Records: 
Notre Dame 37-14
Stanford 32-20
AP Final Ranks ‘16-’19:
Notre Dame: NR, 11, 5, 12
Stanford: 12, 20, NR, NR.
(Courtesy R.J. Abeytia)

Brian Kelly, in the wake of a 4-8 season in 2015, cleaned house and doubled-down on recruiting. Then there's our "What, Me Worry?" guy.

Gail, I suggest you immediately start a petition to get Shaw fired .  If you have a lot of money use it.  Because your obsession is obvious.  Post after Post after Post.  Saying essentially the same thing.  We get it, he can’t coach his way out of a paper bag.  Whose next. I’m sure that whomever you choose will return Stanford to its pre Harbaugh/Shaw prominence.

Lex, I then suggest that you avoid my tiresome, repetitive, etc. etc, posts, or be sure to do one or more of the following i(f you insist on subjecting yourself to such aggravation-driven heartburn:

1. wearing looser clothing.
   
2. standing up straight.
   
3. elevating your upper body.
   
4. mixing baking soda with water.
   
5. trying ginger.
   
6. taking licorice supplements.
   
7. sipping apple cider vinegar.
   
8. chewing gum to help dilute acid.
   

And while you're at it, take a flyin' leap.

A little sensitive, eh? Too old to take a flying leap.  I mean my vertical was never much to begin with.

[lex24]

My biggest beef with Shaw's recruiting is his inability to recruit redshirt seniors to return for their 5th year.  Last season, we had almost no 5th year seniors with guys like Barton et al retiring or transferring. This year, we have 11 former starters who are either playing for other teams (Eboh, Hattis, Costello, Hamilton, Powell, Williams, Swann) or not playing this season (Little, Adeebo, Pryts, Head). This doesn't count the non-starters who transferred out (Stewart, Speights, et al).  We didn't need or want all of those guys back and you can't fault Costello, Adeebo and Little who made NFL decisions, but this team would sure look different if we had 6 more 5th year seniors with 2 more experienced OL, 2 more DL, a ILB and starting CB. Those are positions of precarious depth that for various reasons our program wasn't attractive enough to retain those players. It bums me out and in my opinion not a good reflection of the state of the program.  Other programs don't have that kind of inability to retain 5th year seniors.  People will respond that we didn't have scholarships for them all and that they didn't get into grad school at Stanford, but the reality is most of them made football decisions and decided they were better off elsewhere and we had room for Swann, Williams, Hattis, Hamilton, Eboh, Pryts and Head who all would have seen playing time and most of them would have been starters.

No idea why they left.  Could be program related.  Could be grad school related. To me the fault/problem lies at the other end.  There simply is no reason to redshirt anymore.  If the guy can help, get him on the field.

---

I'm going to chime in here as alumnus of both, and a longtime fan of both Stanford and Notre Dame.

Neutral or biased? I'm not sure. Notre Dame was my first degree, undergrad, 50 years ago. One of my brothers graduated there, and one of my daughters graduated from Notre Dame. Stanford for me was an MBA 11 years later. One of my daughters graduated from Stanford, and my dad taught in the medical school as an adjunct. And I grew up in Los Altos, going to Stanford games regularly throughout my childhood. I watched John Brodie way back when.

I'm not claiming any special insight as an alum of both. This is an opportunity to voice some long-held opinions about college football and football coaches. All of this just opinions.

1. With college-level coaches it ought to be a hierarchy of values, in which winning isn't everything. The coach of the football team isn't just about the team and the wins; it ought to be about what the institution values.
   
2. The ideal is a football coach who stands for integrity, work effort, and honor; but also wins. During my years at Notre Dame we had Ara Parseghian, who excelled at football and as a leader. At Stanford we had Bill Walsh, who, like Parseghian, was both.
   
3. I've disliked Brian Kelly since the first time I saw him humiliate a player on national TV, shouting abuse at a 20-year-old boy from close range. He does that less these days, but he still does it. If I were in charge, that behavior (and several other questionable decisions, like the death of a kid who was filming practice for Kelly during high winds; and some recruitment ethics questions) would rule him out. Even if ND were to win a national championship, I'd still rather have David Shaw than Brian Kelly.
   
4. This is not just a fair weather opinion. I've stood for this point of view even when my teams weren't winning. I've swallowed the bad years when the coach wasn't an ahole in public. For example, Lou Holtz also won, but I was never proud of him. 
   
5. That many years later, I hated ND for its dealings with Tyrone Willingham. When they fired him after only two years to get Charlie Weiss. I would have hated that even if Weiss had done well. He didn't. I still resent that ND decision.
   
6. The ND community overvalues football, IMO. The campus atmosphere on Saturdays at ND is entirely, like 100%, about the game. Nothing else matters to anybody. The place of the game at Stanford is more appropriate. Let the football fans (me included) focus on football; football is a sport, not a symbol of ultimate value. And I love football. I even played in the intramural league at ND, which is full pads and full tackle football. And I love watching games.
   
7. ND has a recruiting advantage over Stanford because of its tradition of football, which I hope I've made clear is not necessarily the best thing for an educational institution, but does give it an advantage competing for the best high school players. I see stats that indicate that players recruited by both schools tend to go to Stanford. That's what I'd want for a grandson of mine who was in that position. But the stats don't show how many players across the country want to go to ND, compared to those who want to go to Stanford. ND is perceived to be a better path to the pros. ND and the golden dome, and touchdown Jesus, all stand for football. Stanford stands for education, and, the last couple decades, Silicon Valley. I like the latter better.
   
8. I'd like David Shaw to get a new offensive coordinator and listen to him or her. I'd like him to channel Bill Walsh, with his innovative short-pass screen-pass offense, updated to 2020. I still shudder to think of that 2012 Fiesta Bowl when we sat down for a field goal with a minute still to play. I like the man, and what he stands for; but not his football strategy.
   
9. I'd like ND to let Brian Kelly go.
   

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

Seems there are many Knights on this board..... (Eagles now.....)

---

Notre Dame, Stanford:

How long ago does Conrad Ukropina’s season-ending field goal against the Fighting Irish feel? One could make a very strong argument that the Cardinal was right at the same level as Notre Dame as a program at that moment. Since 2015, here is how they compare: 

Records: 
Notre Dame 37-14
Stanford 32-20
AP Final Ranks ‘16-’19:
Notre Dame: NR, 11, 5, 12
Stanford: 12, 20, NR, NR.
(Courtesy R.J. Abeytia)

Brian Kelly, in the wake of a 4-8 season in 2015, cleaned house and doubled-down on recruiting. Then there's our "What, Me Worry?" guy.

Gail, I suggest you immediately start a petition to get Shaw fired .  If you have a lot of money use it.  Because your obsession is obvious.  Post after Post after Post.  Saying essentially the same thing.  We get it, he can’t coach his way out of a paper bag.  Whose next. I’m sure that whomever you choose will return Stanford to its pre Harbaugh/Shaw prominence.

Lex, I then suggest that you avoid my tiresome, repetitive, etc. etc, posts, or be sure to do one or more of the following i(f you insist on subjecting yourself to such aggravation-driven heartburn:

1. wearing looser clothing.
   
2. standing up straight.
   
3. elevating your upper body.
   
4. mixing baking soda with water.
   
5. trying ginger.
   
6. taking licorice supplements.
   
7. sipping apple cider vinegar.
   
8. chewing gum to help dilute acid.
   

And while you're at it, take a flyin' leap.

A little sensitive, eh? Too old to take a flying leap.  I mean my vertical was never much to begin with.

[BobK]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship. If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

[BobK]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship. If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

[teejers1]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship.  If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

Why?  Is there some mando requirement to give 2 walk-ons scholies each year?
Plus, how many of the 83 were given scholies while in HS?

BTW, I don't view the problem as grad school - the problem is why these guys cannot stay an extra quarter for undergraduate degree?  That used to happen more frequently than it does.  Maybe there is some institutional prohibition on this practice nowadays; but if so, I'm not aware of it.

[teejers1]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship.  If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

Why?  Is there some mando requirement to give 2 walk-ons scholies each year?
Plus, how many of the 83 were given scholies while in HS?

BTW, I don't view the problem as grad school - the problem is why these guys cannot stay an extra quarter for undergraduate degree?  That used to happen more frequently than it does.  Maybe there is some institutional prohibition on this practice nowadays; but if so, I'm not aware of it.

[oregontim]

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

Those coincidences are fun. For me it was Georgina P. Blach middle and Awalt High School, which is now Mt. View. In the area above Loyola Corners.

[oregontim]

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

Those coincidences are fun. For me it was Georgina P. Blach middle and Awalt High School, which is now Mt. View. In the area above Loyola Corners.

[donkey687]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship.  If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

Why?  Is there some mando requirement to give 2 walk-ons scholies each year?
Plus, how many of the 83 were given scholies while in HS?

BTW, I don't view the problem as grad school - the problem is why these guys cannot stay an extra quarter for undergraduate degree?  That used to happen more frequently than it does.  Maybe there is some institutional prohibition on this practice nowadays; but if so, I'm not aware of it.

No one needs to get into grad school to stay for a fifth year. Everyone can stay and do more undergrad courses even if they have a degree.  The 83 includes 3 5th years who never started and a somewhat gratuitous grad transfer QB who only got a fifth year because most of the 5th year starters left for greener pastures.  We had room for Swann, Eboh, Williams, Hattis and Hamilton.  Head was included in the 83.

[donkey687]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship.  If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

Why?  Is there some mando requirement to give 2 walk-ons scholies each year?
Plus, how many of the 83 were given scholies while in HS?

BTW, I don't view the problem as grad school - the problem is why these guys cannot stay an extra quarter for undergraduate degree?  That used to happen more frequently than it does.  Maybe there is some institutional prohibition on this practice nowadays; but if so, I'm not aware of it.

No one needs to get into grad school to stay for a fifth year. Everyone can stay and do more undergrad courses even if they have a degree.  The 83 includes 3 5th years who never started and a somewhat gratuitous grad transfer QB who only got a fifth year because most of the 5th year starters left for greener pastures.  We had room for Swann, Eboh, Williams, Hattis and Hamilton.  Head was included in the 83.

[fullmetal]

It might be nice to have some kind of incentive for the walk-ons to really compete and get after it.  I don't mind seeing the grad transfers leave in general just because I think the game is evolving to where you need that scholarship turnover to offer the next stud recruit.  Seems to be a numbers game.

[fullmetal]

It might be nice to have some kind of incentive for the walk-ons to really compete and get after it.  I don't mind seeing the grad transfers leave in general just because I think the game is evolving to where you need that scholarship turnover to offer the next stud recruit.  Seems to be a numbers game.

[BostonCard]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship.  If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

Why?  Is there some mando requirement to give 2 walk-ons scholies each year?
Plus, how many of the 83 were given scholies while in HS?

BTW, I don't view the problem as grad school - the problem is why these guys cannot stay an extra quarter for undergraduate degree?  That used to happen more frequently than it does.  Maybe there is some institutional prohibition on this practice nowadays; but if so, I'm not aware of it.

No one needs to get into grad school to stay for a fifth year. Everyone can stay and do more undergrad courses even if they have a degree.  The 83 includes 3 5th years who never started and a somewhat gratuitous grad transfer QB who only got a fifth year because most of the 5th year starters left for greener pastures.  We had room for Swann, Eboh, Williams, Hattis and Hamilton.  Head was included in the 83.

Right, not everyone could have been welcomed back, but of the folks who didn't come back, we lost a few people who could have been bigger contributors than some of the ones who left.  You also left Costello off your list, and he certainly would have done better than West/McKee against Oregon.

Swann and Williams would have been likely starters.  Eboh would have been a starter once Adebo left; he would have been the first back-up to Adebo/Kelly and would have started agaonst Oregon.  One or both of Hattis or Hamilton would have started once we knew that Little was leaving.  On the other hand, the offensive line acquitted itself decently without them.

BC

[BostonCard]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship.  If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

Why?  Is there some mando requirement to give 2 walk-ons scholies each year?
Plus, how many of the 83 were given scholies while in HS?

BTW, I don't view the problem as grad school - the problem is why these guys cannot stay an extra quarter for undergraduate degree?  That used to happen more frequently than it does.  Maybe there is some institutional prohibition on this practice nowadays; but if so, I'm not aware of it.

No one needs to get into grad school to stay for a fifth year. Everyone can stay and do more undergrad courses even if they have a degree.  The 83 includes 3 5th years who never started and a somewhat gratuitous grad transfer QB who only got a fifth year because most of the 5th year starters left for greener pastures.  We had room for Swann, Eboh, Williams, Hattis and Hamilton.  Head was included in the 83.

Right, not everyone could have been welcomed back, but of the folks who didn't come back, we lost a few people who could have been bigger contributors than some of the ones who left.  You also left Costello off your list, and he certainly would have done better than West/McKee against Oregon.

Swann and Williams would have been likely starters.  Eboh would have been a starter once Adebo left; he would have been the first back-up to Adebo/Kelly and would have started agaonst Oregon.  One or both of Hattis or Hamilton would have started once we knew that Little was leaving.  On the other hand, the offensive line acquitted itself decently without them.

BC

[lex24]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship.  If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

Why?  Is there some mando requirement to give 2 walk-ons scholies each year?
Plus, how many of the 83 were given scholies while in HS?

BTW, I don't view the problem as grad school - the problem is why these guys cannot stay an extra quarter for undergraduate degree?  That used to happen more frequently than it does.  Maybe there is some institutional prohibition on this practice nowadays; but if so, I'm not aware of it.

No one needs to get into grad school to stay for a fifth year. Everyone can stay and do more undergrad courses even if they have a degree.  The 83 includes 3 5th years who never started and a somewhat gratuitous grad transfer QB who only got a fifth year because most of the 5th year starters left for greener pastures.  We had room for Swann, Eboh, Williams, Hattis and Hamilton.  Head was included in the 83.

Understood.  But if you have graduated and have a choice of just taking more classes, or getting a year of the grad program of your choice, then that’s a factor to consider.  I’m not saying some may not leave due to dissatisfaction.  I truly don’t know.  My guess is it’s a mix of factors.  

In any event - play talented freshmen!

[lex24]

After the February signing period we had 83 on scholarship.  If the point was signed fewer for four years abd keep some 5th year i would yell stupid.

Why?  Is there some mando requirement to give 2 walk-ons scholies each year?
Plus, how many of the 83 were given scholies while in HS?

BTW, I don't view the problem as grad school - the problem is why these guys cannot stay an extra quarter for undergraduate degree?  That used to happen more frequently than it does.  Maybe there is some institutional prohibition on this practice nowadays; but if so, I'm not aware of it.

No one needs to get into grad school to stay for a fifth year. Everyone can stay and do more undergrad courses even if they have a degree.  The 83 includes 3 5th years who never started and a somewhat gratuitous grad transfer QB who only got a fifth year because most of the 5th year starters left for greener pastures.  We had room for Swann, Eboh, Williams, Hattis and Hamilton.  Head was included in the 83.

Understood.  But if you have graduated and have a choice of just taking more classes, or getting a year of the grad program of your choice, then that’s a factor to consider.  I’m not saying some may not leave due to dissatisfaction.  I truly don’t know.  My guess is it’s a mix of factors.  

In any event - play talented freshmen!

[Farm93]

Understood.  But if you have graduated and have a choice of just taking more classes, or getting a year of the grad program of your choice, then that’s a factor to consider.  I’m not saying some may not leave due to dissatisfaction.  I truly don’t know.  My guess is it’s a mix of factors.  

In any event - play talented freshmen!

The 5th year vs graduate and transfer are so hard to understand on the outside.   If I was in that situation.   Graduate from Stanford ON TIME and then transfer to a different school has a lot of appeal.   The ability to claim you graduated in 4 years while participating in football has some value outside of playing football.  

Ultimately, it will be very hard for any program to keep 5th year players as a non-starter or special teams player if they can transfer and test the waters somewhere else.   And, given Stanford requirements it will be very hard to get a graduate from most D1 schools into a graduate program.  That's just the new way.   I am very confident any Stanford football coach will struggle with this new dynamic.  It is too easy for a Stanford grad to transfer out and too hard for any FBS player to transfer in.

Given that reality, Lex24 your observation makes a lot of sense to me.

Why stay with an outdated philosophy of saving a year of eligibility? 
Play freshman that are ready to go until they are one game away from using a full year.   Then if they prove to be valuable on the field let them keep playing. 

If they are good enough to play as a freshman then it is so likely they will leave for the NFL long before that planned 5th year anyway.

[Farm93]

Understood.  But if you have graduated and have a choice of just taking more classes, or getting a year of the grad program of your choice, then that’s a factor to consider.  I’m not saying some may not leave due to dissatisfaction.  I truly don’t know.  My guess is it’s a mix of factors.  

In any event - play talented freshmen!

The 5th year vs graduate and transfer are so hard to understand on the outside.   If I was in that situation.   Graduate from Stanford ON TIME and then transfer to a different school has a lot of appeal.   The ability to claim you graduated in 4 years while participating in football has some value outside of playing football.  

Ultimately, it will be very hard for any program to keep 5th year players as a non-starter or special teams player if they can transfer and test the waters somewhere else.   And, given Stanford requirements it will be very hard to get a graduate from most D1 schools into a graduate program.  That's just the new way.   I am very confident any Stanford football coach will struggle with this new dynamic.  It is too easy for a Stanford grad to transfer out and too hard for any FBS player to transfer in.

Given that reality, Lex24 your observation makes a lot of sense to me.

Why stay with an outdated philosophy of saving a year of eligibility? 
Play freshman that are ready to go until they are one game away from using a full year.   Then if they prove to be valuable on the field let them keep playing. 

If they are good enough to play as a freshman then it is so likely they will leave for the NFL long before that planned 5th year anyway.

[82lsju]

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

Those coincidences are fun. For me it was Georgina P. Blach middle and Awalt High School, which is now Mt. View. In the area above Loyola Corners.

I've been in Los Altos since 1998, better half since 1988 (she lived on Riverside Dr then).  We live near Covington School.  We met at our 10 year LSJU reunion.

[82lsju]

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

Those coincidences are fun. For me it was Georgina P. Blach middle and Awalt High School, which is now Mt. View. In the area above Loyola Corners.

I've been in Los Altos since 1998, better half since 1988 (she lived on Riverside Dr then).  We live near Covington School.  We met at our 10 year LSJU reunion.

[oregontim]

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

Those coincidences are fun. For me it was Georgina P. Blach middle and Awalt High School, which is now Mt. View. In the area above Loyola Corners.

I've been in Los Altos since 1998, better half since 1988 (she lived on Riverside Dr then).  We live near Covington School.  We met at our 10 year LSJU reunion.

Cool!

[oregontim]

Well put.
My wife grew up Los Altos. Covington School, Los Altos High. We met in an office on Main Street. Lived on Riverside Drive for 38 years.

Those coincidences are fun. For me it was Georgina P. Blach middle and Awalt High School, which is now Mt. View. In the area above Loyola Corners.

I've been in Los Altos since 1998, better half since 1988 (she lived on Riverside Dr then).  We live near Covington School.  We met at our 10 year LSJU reunion.

Cool!