WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - PalmTree - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 08:40 AM)Maple Leaf Wrote:(12-04-2025, 07:50 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote: A game of pluses and minuses last night (I was only able to watch the 2nd half):
I agree with one of the previous posts that Tennessee looked like a pretty dreadful basketball team in this one, but they won the game on strength, physicality and athleticism. They might have had one of the worst shooting games by a "quality" team I've seen. Did they make a single shot between the rim and the 3-point line? Air balls on wide open corner-3s, bricks from the FT line. It was ugly. And I'm not even dragging them, I think their coaches know they are a poor shooting team, they had a game plan, and they executed it and deserved to win the game, imo. It's a game plan that usually works well against Stanford, no matter what our personnel is.
No team should be able to win after turning it over 30+ times in 40 minutes, and yet we had a shot to tie/win in the final 10 seconds. That's kind of mind-boggling. The saving grace there was that a lot of those turnovers ended up being balls out of bounds, and so Tennessee's points off turnovers weren't totally crazy, despite the raw total of turnovers. I thought in the 2nd half we were mostly "breaking" the press fine, i.e. getting it over half-court with the defender at our back, but then Hailee or Chloe would get near the 3-point line or the top of the key and be going downhill so fast that they couldn't make a decent play, so we had some charges and balls bouncing out of bounds off of our feet. The press kept us out of rhythm, but I'm not sure getting into our half-court offense and running sets would have been a boon to our team anyway. When we held onto the ball, we generally found good shots early in the clock. Hailee, Nunu, Lara and Chloe all looked capable of scoring against them in the 2nd half.
The Stanford D was good, though aided by their terrible shooting. Nunu and Lara mostly held up against their front line and we produced some steals in the half-court by collapsing on them when they had a foot in the paint.
The coaches may be reading this Board, because they found the best 5-person lineup and ran with it for most of the 2nd half: Chloe, Hailee, Courtney, Lara & Nunu. I think we should continue to note - with all the talk about Alex on this Board - that KP & the coaches are relying on Lara and Hailee as every-down backs on this team, and that's not something we saw much from Tara with any freshmen in the last 10 years (besides Haley Jones). They mostly abandoned Lepolo, despite all the turnovers, because it was obvious that she wasn't quick enough to beat their guards up the floor with the ball. Even though Chloe and Hailee were losing the ball a lot, they were at least capable of getting the ball past the Vols' players, and/or seeing over the D if they had to pick up their dribble. That 5-person lineup looked good to me - capable of playing with a team this physical, and skilled enough to beat them. We just need Hailee & Lara to slow down the game a bit and the pieces will start to come together more.
I would have loved to see Amborn get a few minutes and just position in her in the corner in front of our bench. Lara and Nunu were generally standing there when Chloe or Hailee were carrying the ball into the front-court, and while they are capable of making a corner-3, Amborn could be a real weapon there. And I think they could have gotten away with hiding Amborn on the defensive side because Tennessee really couldn't hit a shot.
I thought the team showed a lot of fight in the face of adversity and it was encouraging how Hailee and Lara played in this one. Ogden is really showing herself to be an improved players this year, too. They're not a top-16 caliber team and they're not going to be this year, imo, so I think we have to be patient with the ups and downs of this bunch.
excellent analysis/review
+1 thank you!
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - jonnyss - 12-04-2025
lara somfai is good at many things, but imo parking her at the 3-point line to throw up bricks is not using her best skills. i believe she had more 3 point attempts than post-up shots or drives to the basket.
0/5 last night, 7/40 or .175 for the season. lara and chloe have over twice the attempts of any other player, but chloe is a reasonable .341 on 41 attempts.
for all the talana naysayers, she has the best 3-pt % of any player with over 10 attempts - 9/19 or .474. (carly is obviously the best, but only 7 attempts)
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - Card10Fan - 12-04-2025
Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - AndyCardinal03 - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
Is this really worth pointing out? Should we have beaten Tennessee? Should we have beaten LSU, NC State or Duke last year? Do we have better players than those teams?
I'm not saying KP has done anything to give us confidence that she's going to be a great coach for Stanford, but I don't think there's an evident case that she's underperforming either. Last year's team and this year's team are just not as good as every other team of the last ~15 years. If you're expecting those results with these players, I think you're not in touch with where this program is right now. When Tara left, Cam, Kiki and Hannah left with her.
I think we have a lot more talent on this roster than last year, but it's going to take time (i.e. probably not this season) for them to become a contender for conference titles, let alone national titles.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - Nobadeer - 12-04-2025
Interestingly (or inevitably?) it looks like all but one of the non-freshman Tennessee players last night were transfers.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - martyup - 12-04-2025
The 8 point second quarter really killed us.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - SkiBum80 - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 11:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
Is this really worth pointing out? Should we have beaten Tennessee? Should we have beaten LSU, NC State or Duke last year? Do we have better players than those teams?
I'm not saying KP has done anything to give us confidence that she's going to be a great coach for Stanford, but I don't think there's an evident case that she's underperforming either. Last year's team and this year's team are just not as good as every other team of the last ~15 years. If you're expecting those results with these players, I think you're not in touch with where this program is right now. When Tara left, Cam, Kiki and Hannah left with her.
I think we have a lot more talent on this roster than last year, but it's going to take time (i.e. probably not this season) for them to become a contender for conference titles, let alone national titles.
Our women's team performance against ranked teams under this new coach, yes, seems relevant on a discussion board about that women's team.
Should we have won against Tenn? I dunno, maybe coulda, rather than shoulda.
But how about vs FGCU which is ranked only 159 in Net rankings? That looks like a bad loss just 10 games into this season, should we climb into consideration for the NCAA tournament later.
How about an underwater team Assists/TO ratio of 0.84? Which indicates continued lack of ball control basketball.
One can still root for a team while observing that while some things may be going good, others are really not.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - BillBradley - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 11:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:We could have won that game - it's not a stretch. We did not install a very good press break. So many of Cooper's steals were because she ball hawked us. I would have liked to have seen us pass it away from her. I also didn't see a brobdingnagian talent disparity there. Any lineup that includes Nunu, Ogden, Chloe, Swain is plenty athletic, and we were way more skilled. Throw in Somfai and Alex and we are plenty big.(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
Is this really worth pointing out? Should we have beaten Tennessee? Should we have beaten LSU, NC State or Duke last year? Do we have better players than those teams?
I'm not saying KP has done anything to give us confidence that she's going to be a great coach for Stanford, but I don't think there's an evident case that she's underperforming either. Last year's team and this year's team are just not as good as every other team of the last ~15 years. If you're expecting those results with these players, I think you're not in touch with where this program is right now. When Tara left, Cam, Kiki and Hannah left with her.
I think we have a lot more talent on this roster than last year, but it's going to take time (i.e. probably not this season) for them to become a contender for conference titles, let alone national titles.
I agree that it will take time to build the program into a national contender again, but we have the talent to beat teams like this now. Last season was not a good start for KP, with multiple bad losses against teams we should have beaten. It was a downward slide, culminating with a loss to Portland at home where we were way more talented. We haven't looked very good this year either, barely beating average teams, with a terrible loss to FGCU. It's just not a good trend. Maybe the best question to ask about a coach is "does the team (not individual players) improve over the course of the season?". Note - I have nothing personally against KP. I like her, what she says, how she represents the school, there's nothing not to like there on a personal level.
Isn't the mens team a better story? They are not very talented. One might even make a case that the womens team is more talented this year in comparison. The men's team plays hard, they are more accountable, and they have had some really nice wins along the way. Hence the praise for Coach Smith.
(12-04-2025, 12:12 PM)SkiBum80 Wrote:100%.(12-04-2025, 11:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
Is this really worth pointing out? Should we have beaten Tennessee? Should we have beaten LSU, NC State or Duke last year? Do we have better players than those teams?
I'm not saying KP has done anything to give us confidence that she's going to be a great coach for Stanford, but I don't think there's an evident case that she's underperforming either. Last year's team and this year's team are just not as good as every other team of the last ~15 years. If you're expecting those results with these players, I think you're not in touch with where this program is right now. When Tara left, Cam, Kiki and Hannah left with her.
I think we have a lot more talent on this roster than last year, but it's going to take time (i.e. probably not this season) for them to become a contender for conference titles, let alone national titles.
Our women's team performance against ranked teams under this new coach, yes, seems relevant on a discussion board about that women's team.
Should we have won against Tenn? I dunno, maybe coulda, rather than shoulda.
But how about vs FGCU which is ranked only 159 in Net rankings? That looks like a bad loss just 10 games into this season, should we climb into consideration for the NCAA tournament later.
How about an underwater team Assists/TO ratio of 0.84? Which indicates continued lack of ball control basketball.
One can still root for a team while observing that while some things may be going good, others are really not.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - Card10Fan - 12-04-2025
Agree with SkiBum and BillBradley.
We do not have a Cam Brink or Iriafen. But we are not talentless. I think we could be in for a long season. Granted the ACC is really bad so could still get to 20 wins but bad wins don’t help in creating an NCAA tourney resume. KP IMO has done less with more talent. Agreed that Coach Smith has overachieved given the lack of men’s talent.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - AndyCardinal03 - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 12:12 PM)SkiBum80 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 11:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
Is this really worth pointing out? Should we have beaten Tennessee? Should we have beaten LSU, NC State or Duke last year? Do we have better players than those teams?
I'm not saying KP has done anything to give us confidence that she's going to be a great coach for Stanford, but I don't think there's an evident case that she's underperforming either. Last year's team and this year's team are just not as good as every other team of the last ~15 years. If you're expecting those results with these players, I think you're not in touch with where this program is right now. When Tara left, Cam, Kiki and Hannah left with her.
I think we have a lot more talent on this roster than last year, but it's going to take time (i.e. probably not this season) for them to become a contender for conference titles, let alone national titles.
Our women's team performance against ranked teams under this new coach, yes, seems relevant on a discussion board about that women's team.
Should we have won against Tenn? I dunno, maybe coulda, rather than shoulda.
But how about vs FGCU which is ranked only 159 in Net rankings? That looks like a bad loss just 10 games into this season, should we climb into consideration for the NCAA tournament later.
How about an underwater team Assists/TO ratio of 0.84? Which indicates continued lack of ball control basketball.
One can still root for a team while observing that while some things may be going good, others are really not.
I hear you. But I also think you're saying 2 different things (and maybe I am too). One is about our record against ranked teams under Paye. Of course, you're well within your right as a fan to complain about this stuff and this is an appropriate place to do so. I'm saying, is that really the best way to judge what's happening with this team/program right now? I don't think so. I don't think we're better than most (or any) of those teams, either on paper or certainly on the court. I wish we were, but we're not. I bet Tennessee fans often feel kind of similar; they're a WCB blue blood just like us, and they haven't played at that level consistently for a while now. We're only in Year 2 of being off that track, and I think we have to be more patient. That's what I was trying to suggest.
The second thing you said was should we have beaten FGCU? And I agree with you, that was a bad loss and a roster with this kind of talent shouldn't lose* to a team like that (* except sometimes teams have head-scratching losses). That one is concerning to me. That's a better place to raise questions, I think, and perhaps a better place to judge whether this program is headed in the right direction than to criticize the record against top teams. I want to see them get better this year, and I'll be disappointed if they don't. Last year they didn't get better, but they had a lot working against them: first year in the ACC, first-year coach, a lack of quality players, an underperforming senior class, and Nunu got hurt in conference play.
I hope we start to see progress, and I think that 5-person lineup they had on the court for most of the 2nd half was a sign of progress, even if we didn't get the W against this ranked team in a close, winnable game.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - SkiBum80 - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 01:42 PM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:Maybe we agree that our women's team is a work in progress.(12-04-2025, 12:12 PM)SkiBum80 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 11:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
Is this really worth pointing out? Should we have beaten Tennessee? Should we have beaten LSU, NC State or Duke last year? Do we have better players than those teams?
I'm not saying KP has done anything to give us confidence that she's going to be a great coach for Stanford, but I don't think there's an evident case that she's underperforming either. Last year's team and this year's team are just not as good as every other team of the last ~15 years. If you're expecting those results with these players, I think you're not in touch with where this program is right now. When Tara left, Cam, Kiki and Hannah left with her.
I think we have a lot more talent on this roster than last year, but it's going to take time (i.e. probably not this season) for them to become a contender for conference titles, let alone national titles.
Our women's team performance against ranked teams under this new coach, yes, seems relevant on a discussion board about that women's team.
Should we have won against Tenn? I dunno, maybe coulda, rather than shoulda.
But how about vs FGCU which is ranked only 159 in Net rankings? That looks like a bad loss just 10 games into this season, should we climb into consideration for the NCAA tournament later.
How about an underwater team Assists/TO ratio of 0.84? Which indicates continued lack of ball control basketball.
One can still root for a team while observing that while some things may be going good, others are really not.
I hear you. But I also think you're saying 2 different things (and maybe I am too). One is about our record against ranked teams under Paye. Of course, you're well within your right as a fan to complain about this stuff and this is an appropriate place to do so. I'm saying, is that really the best way to judge what's happening with this team/program right now? I don't think so. I don't think we're better than most (or any) of those teams, either on paper or certainly on the court. I wish we were, but we're not. I bet Tennessee fans often feel kind of similar; they're a WCB blue blood just like us, and they haven't played at that level consistently for a while now. We're only in Year 2 of being off that track, and I think we have to be more patient. That's what I was trying to suggest.
The second thing you said was should we have beaten FGCU? And I agree with you, that was a bad loss and a roster with this kind of talent shouldn't lose* to a team like that (* except sometimes teams have head-scratching losses). That one is concerning to me. That's a better place to raise questions, I think, and perhaps a better place to judge whether this program is headed in the right direction than to criticize the record against top teams. I want to see them get better this year, and I'll be disappointed if they don't. Last year they didn't get better, but they had a lot working against them: first year in the ACC, first-year coach, a lack of quality players, an underperforming senior class, and Nunu got hurt in conference play.
I hope we start to see progress, and I think that 5-person lineup they had on the court for most of the 2nd half was a sign of progress, even if we didn't get the W against this ranked team in a close, winnable game.
Perhaps you're seeing it more optimistically while I'm still a bit more skeptical, looking for more evidence to show moving in right direction.
Some specific observations and ideas from my armchair:
Agree Agara is a beast all around competitor, in my mind the best player on the team, and was a big loss last year when injured.
Somfai is a big talent, who also makes big mistakes. She leads in rebounds and blocks, also leads in fouls and 2nd most in turnovers.
I hope she is working with a big-specific coach? to improve her inside play, on O to reduce TO's and on D to reduce Fouls.
A major coaching mistake to allow her outside shooting 3's. She isn't hitting them (taken 40! and only making 0.175).
And when your leading rebounder is outside the arc jacking up a 3, how much reduced is your chance of getting the rebound when she likely misses?
Consider the 4 main guards: Lepolo, Swain, Shay, Clardy. I hope they as a group are doing ball handling drills to not only bring the ball upcourt, but to do so when under a full court press. And as usually 2 of them on court at same time, how to help out quickly when a teammate double teamed.
Of these, Swain, like Somfai, is both a big talent and making big mistakes. She has unique speed and quickness. She also leads the team in TO's.
She needs urgent coaching on on how to channel that speed and quickness while maintaining better ball control.
Regarding Lepolo, when she came in freshman year, I was impressed with her.
Her Sophomore year was discouraging. I saw a lot of teams sag off of her and crowd the paint instead because they just didn't respect her shot.
And she (mostly) didn't prove them wrong, with a few big game exceptions.
Her Junior year was a washout to injury.
So far this year she is shooting 3's at a good pct, but just not taking many at all.
Maybe she should get some more attempts?
If she continues hitting them, it will be very helpful to draw defenses out more and open up inside for bigs.
If she is not making them, then maybe Amborn could be in for more minutes, taking more 3's, as she is hitting perfectly! (granted, on so few attempts so far).
They've played some good impressive games so far.
But keep in mind their average Net rating of their competitors so far is only 150, so they've not reached the hardest part of schedule yet.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - MV72018 - 12-04-2025
Two salient facts from last night's game that are worth pondering going forward:
Stanford Tennessee
Turnovers 30 16
Offensive Reebs 11 19
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - stopandpop - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 01:42 PM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 12:12 PM)SkiBum80 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 11:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
Is this really worth pointing out? Should we have beaten Tennessee? Should we have beaten LSU, NC State or Duke last year? Do we have better players than those teams?
I'm not saying KP has done anything to give us confidence that she's going to be a great coach for Stanford, but I don't think there's an evident case that she's underperforming either. Last year's team and this year's team are just not as good as every other team of the last ~15 years. If you're expecting those results with these players, I think you're not in touch with where this program is right now. When Tara left, Cam, Kiki and Hannah left with her.
I think we have a lot more talent on this roster than last year, but it's going to take time (i.e. probably not this season) for them to become a contender for conference titles, let alone national titles.
Our women's team performance against ranked teams under this new coach, yes, seems relevant on a discussion board about that women's team.
Should we have won against Tenn? I dunno, maybe coulda, rather than shoulda.
But how about vs FGCU which is ranked only 159 in Net rankings? That looks like a bad loss just 10 games into this season, should we climb into consideration for the NCAA tournament later.
How about an underwater team Assists/TO ratio of 0.84? Which indicates continued lack of ball control basketball.
One can still root for a team while observing that while some things may be going good, others are really not.
I hear you. But I also think you're saying 2 different things (and maybe I am too). One is about our record against ranked teams under Paye. Of course, you're well within your right as a fan to complain about this stuff and this is an appropriate place to do so. I'm saying, is that really the best way to judge what's happening with this team/program right now? I don't think so. I don't think we're better than most (or any) of those teams, either on paper or certainly on the court. I wish we were, but we're not. I bet Tennessee fans often feel kind of similar; they're a WCB blue blood just like us, and they haven't played at that level consistently for a while now. We're only in Year 2 of being off that track, and I think we have to be more patient. That's what I was trying to suggest.
The second thing you said was should we have beaten FGCU? And I agree with you, that was a bad loss and a roster with this kind of talent shouldn't lose* to a team like that (* except sometimes teams have head-scratching losses). That one is concerning to me. That's a better place to raise questions, I think, and perhaps a better place to judge whether this program is headed in the right direction than to criticize the record against top teams. I want to see them get better this year, and I'll be disappointed if they don't. Last year they didn't get better, but they had a lot working against them: first year in the ACC, first-year coach, a lack of quality players, an underperforming senior class, and Nunu got hurt in conference play.
I hope we start to see progress, and I think that 5-person lineup they had on the court for most of the 2nd half was a sign of progress, even if we didn't get the W against this ranked team in a close, winnable game.
First, kudos to the team that fought to the end against a much quicker and more physical Tennessee team. If you have been following officiating trends over the past several seasons, you have noticed that the refs are rewarding physicality so Stanford must adapt and better-prepare for that physicality the rest of the way.
I agree with everyone on the Board who said that (despite the 30 turnovers), Stanford could have won this game. I think the problem near the end was the Stanford players were simply 'out of gas', working so hard to get the ball past midcourt and having withered continuous waves of (fresh) Tennessee players who were hounding Stanford at every step. The Stanford (side to side) offense, which we have vigorously debated (sadly) was 'made to order' for a team like Tennessee. One way you attack Tennessee is how UCLA and crushed them down in Pauley Pavilion on Nov. 30th. 99-77 and it wasn't even that close. They accomplished this without Lauren Betts being any kind of factor. In fact, UCLA played better that night WITHOUT Betts in the line-up. UCLA placed a post or forward art midcourt as a safety-valve for guards Rice and Leger-Walker to pass to and the press was broken. Once over midcourt, the Bruins set strong screens at the high post and their players went 'down hill' and scored repeatedly. I am not suggesting that Stanford should play like UCLA- 2 totally different teams and talent, but I would bet that Coach Paye, her staff and possibly the team watched that game and I'm surprised they didn't seem to prepare for Tennessee's pressure.
Another way to attack a relentless defense (like Tennessee's) is setting HARD (legal) screens at the high post. Stanford's screens are typically 'soft'.
I am reminded that Coach Vanderveer was one of the greatest half-time adjusters in women's college basketball. I remember that Coach V. would put Brink at midcourt (just like UCLA did with their Bigs). The Stanford guards would throw the ball to Brink and the press would be broken. I did not see any adjustments in this game, nor against FGCU, a mid-major that never should have challenged Stanford in Las Vegas.
I do agree that the team will grow from this experience.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - ljw63 - 12-04-2025
Several observations about the game:
(1) The team was ill prepared for a pressure defense. It seemed like we had spent maybe one practice working on getting the ball safely moving up the court.
(2) Shay should have been used more on that aspect of the game. She is quick enough to break the press. Lepolo is not.
(3) The referees were terrible. They let Tennessee maul the Stanford players bringing up the ball without calling fouls and then called a lot of ticky-tack fouls near the basket. Tennessee shot 20 foul shots, we shot 11. A good example is the flagrant foul almost called on Somfai. The defender grabbed her arm, not the ball. She tried to spin out and clocked another defender. They picked us clean a few times but many of the turnovers were muggings that were not called. Apparently, when double teaming an opponent it is OK to grab an arm.
(4) For the first time this year Somfai disappeared in the first half. She played better in the second half. Swain was generally good as were Clardy and Agara. Ogden and Eschmeyer had fair games. Lepolo and Stephenson did little.
(5) We should have won if we had kept the turnovers to a normal level. That was probably one part lack of experience, one part poor referees, and one part lack of adequate coaching
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - MV72018 - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 03:14 PM)stopandpop Wrote:(12-04-2025, 01:42 PM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 12:12 PM)SkiBum80 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 11:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:(12-04-2025, 10:38 AM)Card10Fan Wrote: Coach Paye is 0-8 against ranked teams as a head coach. Stanford has not beat a ranked opponent since Cam Brinks senior season and Tara’s last year on the bench.
Is this really worth pointing out? Should we have beaten Tennessee? Should we have beaten LSU, NC State or Duke last year? Do we have better players than those teams?
I'm not saying KP has done anything to give us confidence that she's going to be a great coach for Stanford, but I don't think there's an evident case that she's underperforming either. Last year's team and this year's team are just not as good as every other team of the last ~15 years. If you're expecting those results with these players, I think you're not in touch with where this program is right now. When Tara left, Cam, Kiki and Hannah left with her.
I think we have a lot more talent on this roster than last year, but it's going to take time (i.e. probably not this season) for them to become a contender for conference titles, let alone national titles.
Our women's team performance against ranked teams under this new coach, yes, seems relevant on a discussion board about that women's team.
Should we have won against Tenn? I dunno, maybe coulda, rather than shoulda.
But how about vs FGCU which is ranked only 159 in Net rankings? That looks like a bad loss just 10 games into this season, should we climb into consideration for the NCAA tournament later.
How about an underwater team Assists/TO ratio of 0.84? Which indicates continued lack of ball control basketball.
One can still root for a team while observing that while some things may be going good, others are really not.
I hear you. But I also think you're saying 2 different things (and maybe I am too). One is about our record against ranked teams under Paye. Of course, you're well within your right as a fan to complain about this stuff and this is an appropriate place to do so. I'm saying, is that really the best way to judge what's happening with this team/program right now? I don't think so. I don't think we're better than most (or any) of those teams, either on paper or certainly on the court. I wish we were, but we're not. I bet Tennessee fans often feel kind of similar; they're a WCB blue blood just like us, and they haven't played at that level consistently for a while now. We're only in Year 2 of being off that track, and I think we have to be more patient. That's what I was trying to suggest.
The second thing you said was should we have beaten FGCU? And I agree with you, that was a bad loss and a roster with this kind of talent shouldn't lose* to a team like that (* except sometimes teams have head-scratching losses). That one is concerning to me. That's a better place to raise questions, I think, and perhaps a better place to judge whether this program is headed in the right direction than to criticize the record against top teams. I want to see them get better this year, and I'll be disappointed if they don't. Last year they didn't get better, but they had a lot working against them: first year in the ACC, first-year coach, a lack of quality players, an underperforming senior class, and Nunu got hurt in conference play.
I hope we start to see progress, and I think that 5-person lineup they had on the court for most of the 2nd half was a sign of progress, even if we didn't get the W against this ranked team in a close, winnable game.
First, kudos to the team that fought to the end against a much quicker and more physical Tennessee team. If you have been following officiating trends over the past several seasons, you have noticed that the refs are rewarding physicality so Stanford must adapt and better-prepare for that physicality the rest of the way.
I agree with everyone on the Board who said that (despite the 30 turnovers), Stanford could have won this game. I think the problem near the end was the Stanford players were simply 'out of gas', working so hard to get the ball past midcourt and having withered continuous waves of (fresh) Tennessee players who were hounding Stanford at every step. The Stanford (side to side) offense, which we have vigorously debated (sadly) was 'made to order' for a team like Tennessee. One way you attack Tennessee is how UCLA and crushed them down in Pauley Pavilion on Nov. 30th. 99-77 and it wasn't even that close. They accomplished this without Lauren Betts being any kind of factor. In fact, UCLA played better that night WITHOUT Betts in the line-up. UCLA placed a post or forward art midcourt as a safety-valve for guards Rice and Leger-Walker to pass to and the press was broken. Once over midcourt, the Bruins set strong screens at the high post and their players went 'down hill' and scored repeatedly. I am not suggesting that Stanford should play like UCLA- 2 totally different teams and talent, but I would bet that Coach Paye, her staff and possibly the team watched that game and I'm surprised they didn't seem to prepare for Tennessee's pressure.
Another way to attack a relentless defense (like Tennessee's) is setting HARD (legal) screens at the high post. Stanford's screens are typically 'soft'.
I am reminded that Coach Vanderveer was one of the greatest half-time adjusters in women's college basketball. I remember that Coach V. would put Brink at midcourt (just like UCLA did with their Bigs). The Stanford guards would throw the ball to Brink and the press would be broken. I did not see any adjustments in this game, nor against FGCU, a mid-major that never should have challenged Stanford in Las Vegas.
I do agree that the team will grow from this experience.
And WHY do you think that, or does "agree" effectively mean "hope"? Do you seriously believe that KP and company will have all the guards spending untold hours improving their handles and/or improving their passing to get the ball upcourt in the face of a serious press? I see no reason to believe that will happen.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - UltimateCard - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 03:14 PM)stopandpop Wrote: I agree with everyone on the Board who said that (despite the 30 turnovers), Stanford could have won this game. I think the problem near the end was the Stanford players were simply 'out of gas', working so hard to get the ball past midcourt and having withered continuous waves of (fresh) Tennessee players who were hounding Stanford at every step.
Drilling down on this a bit - yes, our side may well have been worn out but it also seemed to this casual observer that the Tennessee coaches finally figured out in the 4Q how to attack our defense. Was it some kind of pick-and-roll that they seemed to repeat with success, either getting to the hole or to the foul line? Maybe someone who’s better with Xs and Os can comment. Still, all in all, I was encouraged by how well the team battled through adversity to even have a chance at the end. No rest for the weary now - not only the upcoming games but also finals. This will be a key stretch…
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - BostonCard - 12-04-2025
As has been mentioned many times before, practice time is so precious that it is scripted to the minute. Any practice time that is spent working on press breaking means less practice time devoted to something else. I have no idea whether we worked on the press break or not in practice; I assume we have worked on all situations that can reasonably be expected in a game and certainly a full court press is common enough that I would expect we would work on it. But if you are arguing we should have worked on it more, then my question is what should we have worked on less?
People denigrate Tennessee, but based on Massey, its rating is just about right (17). Stanford is currently rated 35, which also seems about right. That would put us about 6th in the ACC, which is right where we were picked in the pre-season poll. WE are also predicted to go 14-7 in our remaining 21, which would get us to 22-9 for the season. That would be an improvement over last year’s 16-15 and 9th place finish in the ACC. That represents an improvement, but we are still a long way from the heights we achieved as recently as 5 years ago, commensurate with the improvement in talent on the team. But remember, that talent is heavily concentrated among freshmen, who have played a grand total of 10 collegiate games. I wish we were better than we are, but I don’t think being a top-20 team right now is realistic.
BC
Last Massey comment… yesterday was predicted to be a four point game by Massey (74-70), and the Vols had a 60% chance of winning. The final margin was… 3 points, and we had a realistic shot at winning until very late in the game.
Other than it being a much bigger defensive battle than expected, we performed exactly as projected.
As noted the FGCU match was the real underperformance. We were expected to win by 14, and lost by 4 (an 18 point underperformance). But even in that match, we “only” had an 88% chance of winning, which means that you would expect some performances like that (you hope that we also get a similar one in the opposite direction, though).
BC
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - BillBradley - 12-04-2025
To say that this is about where we should be at this time is not very optimistic for this team, IMO. It's just playing the results back. Sort of like saying "What do you expect from KP? Look at what our ratings are and how we've done so far. This is what we are and about how good we should be". The real question, in my mind, is "what should we be with the talent that we have?" I have more optimism for this group. I think we should be undefeated with the only close game having been Tennessee. I bet if you asked KP, she would say the same.
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - PVTree - 12-04-2025
(12-04-2025, 01:04 AM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-04-2025, 12:05 AM)PVTree Wrote: With 6 seconds left and the ball, I was surprised to see Lepolo on the court. We needed shooters at that moment, and I would have had the best 6 shooters on the court.
Turnovers were the story of the game. Tennessee got tired of missing so many shots, but they kept getting more opportunities with their pressure and our lack of taking care of the ball. I would guess that a third of our turnovers were unforced while the rest were definitely related to the pressure Tennessee exerted.
A) Unless the box score was wrong, she wasn’t on the court with six seconds to go:
0:06 Talana Lepolo subbing out for Stanford 64 62
0:06 Mary Ashley Stevenson subbing in for Stanford 64 62
Of course, you can be surprised that MAS was on the court. Ogden fouled out though, but it would have been reasonable to ask for Amborn (who didn’t play at all) if you wanted a shooter.
B) While it would be nice to be able to have six shooters on the court, that would be a technical ;)
BC
What a quandary... What to believe, the box score or my lying eyes sitting in the third row in front of the Stanford bench? Tough to decide although I'm leaning towards my eyes. ;^)
RE: WBB: Tennessee Game Thread - BostonCard - 12-04-2025
PVTree dateline='[url=tel:1764906584' Wrote: 1764906584[/url]']
What a quandary... What to believe, the box score or my lying eyes sitting in the third row in front of the Stanford bench? Tough to decide although I'm leaning towards my eyes. ;^)
You made me look. The game is available on YouTube: https://youtu.be/cYe6JNASe3o
The play with 6 seconds to go starts at the 1:10:48 mark.
#22 Stevenson is the inbounder. The ball goes to #3 Agara. #12 Somfai is on the low block. #13 Clardy is in the far corner. The hardest one to make out, because her hair is obscuring her number, but if you look as she runs the baseline to the near side corner, you get #2, Swain. No Lepolo in at the 6 second mark.
Box Score 1, PVMonster 0.
BC
I should add though, that for the very last shot, with 0.5 seconds left (1:11:54 on the video), it looks like #10 Lepolo was on the court at the top of the key, but was not the shooter, so perhaps that is what you saw.
BC