[Goose]

Ya, I don't really understand why Russia should be given the benefit of any doubt. They had pictures of the ant-aircraft system at a market to prove it was bombed because it was a military target. OK, maybe, but why should we believe this? And at the end of the day, the fact it would have been needed there was only for defense of an illegal invasion of their country. So somehow there was justification for taking out the market when Russia shows there was AA there? What? I guess Ukraine should have just laid down all its weapons and surrendered and nobody would have been hurt, right?  Ugh...

I live my life this way.  I trust everyone when first hearing or dealing with someone. Once they establish that they can't be trusted, I have nothing to do with them and certainly don't believe anything they say henceforth.

Russia is built on a culture of lying. Nothing Putin says should be taken as truth. Nothing. It may be that Russia does tell the truth some times - in fact one element of its propaganda is to always include *some truth* - but not being believed is the price of being so dishonest. Want to be believed and trusted? Start telling the truth.

Putin has broken agreements with impunity. He also said Russia wasn't going to invade Ukraine.  So no, I'm not going to listen to their side.  I'm not going give the benefit of the doubt to or trust Russia on anything. Hell, the day Russia announced it was going to reduce its actions to enable peace talks, it fired more artillery than the previous week.  

I'm not going to pretend Ukraine doesn't do its own information operations. I'm just much more inclined to believe Ukraine given the behavior it has exhibited, its resilience, and its humanity... liquidating invading Russian soldiers notwithstanding.

Of course Putin is a monster and what Russia is doing here is horrific.

But you are also right that UKR is running a propaganda campaign.  I don't blame them at all.  They need Western support to survive and if they didn't run a propaganda campaign they wouldn't be doing their job.  FWIW, IMO the line "I don't need a ride, I need ammunition" may be the single greatest statement ever by a war time leader.  Churchillian, but sharper and to the point.

I guess I just want to understand reality.  I am not just going to buy the line from UKR hook line and a sinker.  It is not at all clear to me that Russia is targeting civilians.  The whole invasion is horrific, but I like to think through each claim.

Sherman was correct, I'm afraid. "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it". Looking at it from the philosophical point of view, since this is not a "just war" on Russia's part, each and every thing Russia does is a war crime. That aside, laying siege to a city always has and always will kill civilians. Even the US, which in recent years has gone to great lengths to avoid "collateral damage", kills civilians. I fully believe Russia pays little or no heed to how many civilians it kills as long as it has some kind of vague justification. They were "misinformed" about the theater. From the Russian point of view, civilian casualties are all caused by the Ukraine not surrendering their cites. Not their fault. While I do believe there are degrees of responsibility for civilian casualties in war, it is degrees. Dresden was bombed to destroy the railroad marshaling yards. Right.
There are rules of "right conduct" that in many cases Russia clearly has violated and killed many more civilians than "was necessary". There are many, many more cases that are progressively much less clear. Attempting to refine the cruelty will, in the main, not succeed IMHO. That is why we need to have no wars.

[Goose]

Ya, I don't really understand why Russia should be given the benefit of any doubt. They had pictures of the ant-aircraft system at a market to prove it was bombed because it was a military target. OK, maybe, but why should we believe this? And at the end of the day, the fact it would have been needed there was only for defense of an illegal invasion of their country. So somehow there was justification for taking out the market when Russia shows there was AA there? What? I guess Ukraine should have just laid down all its weapons and surrendered and nobody would have been hurt, right?  Ugh...

I live my life this way.  I trust everyone when first hearing or dealing with someone. Once they establish that they can't be trusted, I have nothing to do with them and certainly don't believe anything they say henceforth.

Russia is built on a culture of lying. Nothing Putin says should be taken as truth. Nothing. It may be that Russia does tell the truth some times - in fact one element of its propaganda is to always include *some truth* - but not being believed is the price of being so dishonest. Want to be believed and trusted? Start telling the truth.

Putin has broken agreements with impunity. He also said Russia wasn't going to invade Ukraine.  So no, I'm not going to listen to their side.  I'm not going give the benefit of the doubt to or trust Russia on anything. Hell, the day Russia announced it was going to reduce its actions to enable peace talks, it fired more artillery than the previous week.  

I'm not going to pretend Ukraine doesn't do its own information operations. I'm just much more inclined to believe Ukraine given the behavior it has exhibited, its resilience, and its humanity... liquidating invading Russian soldiers notwithstanding.

Of course Putin is a monster and what Russia is doing here is horrific.

But you are also right that UKR is running a propaganda campaign.  I don't blame them at all.  They need Western support to survive and if they didn't run a propaganda campaign they wouldn't be doing their job.  FWIW, IMO the line "I don't need a ride, I need ammunition" may be the single greatest statement ever by a war time leader.  Churchillian, but sharper and to the point.

I guess I just want to understand reality.  I am not just going to buy the line from UKR hook line and a sinker.  It is not at all clear to me that Russia is targeting civilians.  The whole invasion is horrific, but I like to think through each claim.

Sherman was correct, I'm afraid. "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it". Looking at it from the philosophical point of view, since this is not a "just war" on Russia's part, each and every thing Russia does is a war crime. That aside, laying siege to a city always has and always will kill civilians. Even the US, which in recent years has gone to great lengths to avoid "collateral damage", kills civilians. I fully believe Russia pays little or no heed to how many civilians it kills as long as it has some kind of vague justification. They were "misinformed" about the theater. From the Russian point of view, civilian casualties are all caused by the Ukraine not surrendering their cites. Not their fault. While I do believe there are degrees of responsibility for civilian casualties in war, it is degrees. Dresden was bombed to destroy the railroad marshaling yards. Right.
There are rules of "right conduct" that in many cases Russia clearly has violated and killed many more civilians than "was necessary". There are many, many more cases that are progressively much less clear. Attempting to refine the cruelty will, in the main, not succeed IMHO. That is why we need to have no wars.