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Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

..and I’ll bet none of the HOF managers did anything closely comparable to pinch hitting Mathias for Crawford.  :)

(heck, that action alone is worthy of a plaque mention for a guy who belongs in the Hall of Shame)

Well, since you brought it up, let's take Joe Torre and his closely comparable moves just in the playoffs...

1) Dropped 30 year old All Star Alex Rodriguez to 8th in the batting order in Game 4 of the 2006 ALDS vs. Detroit. ARod was in the middle of a 7 year stretch when he averaged 47 homers per year. Batted 8th. Lost in four to the Tigers.

2) 2003, Game 4 vs. Florida, 11th inning. Had the best reliever in baseball, Mariano Rivera. Pitched Jeff Weaver (7-9, 4.53 ERA) instead. Weaver gives up walkoff home run. Lost to Marlins in six games.

3) 2002, left Orlando Hernandez in to start the 8th inning of the ALDS game 2 vs. Angels. Had Stanton, Karsay and Mariano Rivera in the pen. El Duque gave up back to back home runs to give Angels the lead in a series the Yankees lost 3-1.

4) Benched speedy Kenny Lofton against Boston in Game 4, 2006 ALCS when Curt Schilling was pitching on a bloody leg. Kenny was a natural and gifted bunter, who three years later would cause Clemens to pull a hamstring chasing down one of Lofton's bunt hits. Lofton was second on Yanks in OPS that series, but only played in three of seven games. Hit an HR, on base 5 times in 12 plate appearances. Yanks lost in seven.

5) Didn't stop game 2 of ALDS vs. Cleveland when midges swarmed Joba Chamberlain on the mound, a move that Torre publicly regretted. Lost series in four games.

6) In perhaps Torre's ultimate Matthias-over-Crawford move, Torre benched 4x Gold Glove CF Bernie Williams in favor of career end-of-bench-fifth-string Bubba Crosby in G5 ALDS versus Indians. Crosby was a reckless fielder who ran into Gary Sheffield in a critical misplay at the wall, a ball that was Sheffield's per the announcing team. Two runs scored, Angels took the lead, Yankees lost the game, lost the series in five.

Every manager, good and bad, makes a Mattias-over-Crawford move.  Sometimes, they make numerous Matthias-over-Crawford moves, sometimes in the playoffs.

Mick,

I don’t think you answered any of my questions.  But I’ll ask another - what point are you trying to prove?  Not sure I get it. Are you upset that the Giants fired Kapler? 


Cause you can throw out any numbers or dredge up “mistakes” all you want.  But you wont find anyone in the baseball world that puts Kapler in the same conversation with Torre or Bochy.


Edit - I was curious on the Bernie Williams thing. He DH’d that game and some others in the series. I wonder if he was banged up.

[lex24]

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Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

..and I’ll bet none of the HOF managers did anything closely comparable to pinch hitting Mathias for Crawford.  :)

(heck, that action alone is worthy of a plaque mention for a guy who belongs in the Hall of Shame)

Well, since you brought it up, let's take Joe Torre and his closely comparable moves just in the playoffs...

1) Dropped 30 year old All Star Alex Rodriguez to 8th in the batting order in Game 4 of the 2006 ALDS vs. Detroit. ARod was in the middle of a 7 year stretch when he averaged 47 homers per year. Batted 8th. Lost in four to the Tigers.

2) 2003, Game 4 vs. Florida, 11th inning. Had the best reliever in baseball, Mariano Rivera. Pitched Jeff Weaver (7-9, 4.53 ERA) instead. Weaver gives up walkoff home run. Lost to Marlins in six games.

3) 2002, left Orlando Hernandez in to start the 8th inning of the ALDS game 2 vs. Angels. Had Stanton, Karsay and Mariano Rivera in the pen. El Duque gave up back to back home runs to give Angels the lead in a series the Yankees lost 3-1.

4) Benched speedy Kenny Lofton against Boston in Game 4, 2006 ALCS when Curt Schilling was pitching on a bloody leg. Kenny was a natural and gifted bunter, who three years later would cause Clemens to pull a hamstring chasing down one of Lofton's bunt hits. Lofton was second on Yanks in OPS that series, but only played in three of seven games. Hit an HR, on base 5 times in 12 plate appearances. Yanks lost in seven.

5) Didn't stop game 2 of ALDS vs. Cleveland when midges swarmed Joba Chamberlain on the mound, a move that Torre publicly regretted. Lost series in four games.

6) In perhaps Torre's ultimate Matthias-over-Crawford move, Torre benched 4x Gold Glove CF Bernie Williams in favor of career end-of-bench-fifth-string Bubba Crosby in G5 ALDS versus Indians. Crosby was a reckless fielder who ran into Gary Sheffield in a critical misplay at the wall, a ball that was Sheffield's per the announcing team. Two runs scored, Angels took the lead, Yankees lost the game, lost the series in five.

Every manager, good and bad, makes a Mattias-over-Crawford move.  Sometimes, they make numerous Matthias-over-Crawford moves, sometimes in the playoffs.

Mick,

I don’t think you answered any of my questions.  But I’ll ask another - what point are you trying to prove?  Not sure I get it. Are you upset that the Giants fired Kapler? 


Cause you can throw out any numbers or dredge up “mistakes” all you want.  But you wont find anyone in the baseball world that puts Kapler in the same conversation with Torre or Bochy.


Edit - I was curious on the Bernie Williams thing. He DH’d that game and some others in the series. I wonder if he was banged up.