12-21-2021, 08:16 PM
When you have them down turn on the juice. Gotta have the killer instinct. No mercy in war. They need a female George Kittle.
WBB: Stanford 61 South Carolina 65
12-21-2021, 08:39 PM
I know the last two games we've had epic 3rd-quarter meltdowns. But hasn't this been typical at least the last couple of years?
Used to be if we went into a locker room at halftime with a lead (or even, say, 5 points behind), I'd like our chances coming back at halftime. Stanford was always known as a 2nd half team, but the last few years? What's up?
Used to be if we went into a locker room at halftime with a lead (or even, say, 5 points behind), I'd like our chances coming back at halftime. Stanford was always known as a 2nd half team, but the last few years? What's up?
I know the last two games we've had epic 3rd-quarter meltdowns. But hasn't this been typical at least the last couple of years?
Used to be if we went into a locker room at halftime with a lead (or even, say, 5 points behind), I'd like our chances coming back at halftime. Stanford was always known as a 2nd half team, but the last few years? What's up?
Used to be if we went into a locker room at halftime with a lead (or even, say, 5 points behind), I'd like our chances coming back at halftime. Stanford was always known as a 2nd half team, but the last few years? What's up?
In the long run if we are to meet SC in the NCAA tourney. I think avenging a loss, not to mention adjustments and film study from this game are to our advantage. We don't often times lose multiple games to the same team in a season. However in the moment tonight, I really wanted us to pull it out. We played well enough to win. Remember, one week ago when we were all commenting how Brink was unstoppable. That sentiment has changed after these two tough games. She needs to get back on track.
Hope the team gets some time to enjoy the holidays away from basketball and comes back ready for Pac12 season.
Is anyone gonna beat South Carolina during the regular season? Even 1-2 loses in conference, they still probably lock up the overall #1 seed in the NCAA tourney. We should aspire to be overall #2 or #3 so we wouldn't have to meet them for a rematch until the national championship.
Hope the team gets some time to enjoy the holidays away from basketball and comes back ready for Pac12 season.
Is anyone gonna beat South Carolina during the regular season? Even 1-2 loses in conference, they still probably lock up the overall #1 seed in the NCAA tourney. We should aspire to be overall #2 or #3 so we wouldn't have to meet them for a rematch until the national championship.
(This post was last modified: 12-21-2021, 09:01 PM by Card10Fan.)
In the long run if we are to meet SC in the NCAA tourney. I think avenging a loss, not to mention adjustments and film study from this game are to our advantage. We don't often times lose multiple games to the same team in a season. However in the moment tonight, I really wanted us to pull it out. We played well enough to win. Remember, one week ago when we were all commenting how Brink was unstoppable. That sentiment has changed after these two tough games. She needs to get back on track.
Hope the team gets some time to enjoy the holidays away from basketball and comes back ready for Pac12 season.
Is anyone gonna beat South Carolina during the regular season? Even 1-2 loses in conference, they still probably lock up the overall #1 seed in the NCAA tourney. We should aspire to be overall #2 or #3 so we wouldn't have to meet them for a rematch until the national championship.
Hope the team gets some time to enjoy the holidays away from basketball and comes back ready for Pac12 season.
Is anyone gonna beat South Carolina during the regular season? Even 1-2 loses in conference, they still probably lock up the overall #1 seed in the NCAA tourney. We should aspire to be overall #2 or #3 so we wouldn't have to meet them for a rematch until the national championship.
12-21-2021, 09:06 PM
I’d really like to see Agnes get a chance to be a defensive stopper, but at this point I suspect Tara’s made up her mind.
Henderson is probably too quick for anyone we have anyway.
Henderson is probably too quick for anyone we have anyway.
12-21-2021, 09:25 PM
Our biggest problem with Henderson was not defending her offense, it was escaping from her defense. Those steals that lead to points were what killed us. Avoid most of those, or even just some of those and we win the game.
I think the reason we have poor third quarters is that the opponent's defense figures out how to play against our offense by then. For those of us who watch our offense all the time we can forget that it is unique and hard to defend against--no amount of practice can really prepare opponents for the pace of what we do. By the time they have played against it for a half they figure it out--provided they have the kind of players who can disrupt it. Both Tennessee and South Carolina keyed their third quarter breakouts by shutting down our offense for long stretches--something neither could do in the first half. If our offense were based more purely on physical talent there would be little difference between the 1st and the 2nd halves, but since it is dependent on a scheme, the opponent learns in the first half how to deal with the scheme in the second.
We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
We also shot the lights out in the first quarter. It was unrealistic to assume that could continue. And one of the great advantages of shooting lights out is that rebounds are not necessary and the opponent can't fast break. Once we started missing it allowed South Carolina to do things it couldn't do before.
I agree that Belibi and Prechtel looked much better on the floor than Brink today--really for the trip. I also agree that Henderson was their key to success. Interestingly, Cooke scored 25 against us in the semis and was held to 4 today--so we did some things well on defense.
I am not disappointed to lose a close game to the #1 team on the road--but I am disappointed to blow such a big lead. It was the biggest comeback in the history of South Carolina basketball. I think we are at the point where the coaches need to think carefully about what can be done to even out our performance. These long offensive droughts need to be reduced.
Now, on the the Pac 12. The trip to Washington and Washington State is not without its risks. I hope we can stay healthy as we move into the heart of the omicron conflagration--given all the cancelled games already.
Press conference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEfVQR8r_yE
We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
We also shot the lights out in the first quarter. It was unrealistic to assume that could continue. And one of the great advantages of shooting lights out is that rebounds are not necessary and the opponent can't fast break. Once we started missing it allowed South Carolina to do things it couldn't do before.
I agree that Belibi and Prechtel looked much better on the floor than Brink today--really for the trip. I also agree that Henderson was their key to success. Interestingly, Cooke scored 25 against us in the semis and was held to 4 today--so we did some things well on defense.
I am not disappointed to lose a close game to the #1 team on the road--but I am disappointed to blow such a big lead. It was the biggest comeback in the history of South Carolina basketball. I think we are at the point where the coaches need to think carefully about what can be done to even out our performance. These long offensive droughts need to be reduced.
Now, on the the Pac 12. The trip to Washington and Washington State is not without its risks. I hope we can stay healthy as we move into the heart of the omicron conflagration--given all the cancelled games already.
Press conference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEfVQR8r_yE
I think the reason we have poor third quarters is that the opponent's defense figures out how to play against our offense by then. For those of us who watch our offense all the time we can forget that it is unique and hard to defend against--no amount of practice can really prepare opponents for the pace of what we do. By the time they have played against it for a half they figure it out--provided they have the kind of players who can disrupt it. Both Tennessee and South Carolina keyed their third quarter breakouts by shutting down our offense for long stretches--something neither could do in the first half. If our offense were based more purely on physical talent there would be little difference between the 1st and the 2nd halves, but since it is dependent on a scheme, the opponent learns in the first half how to deal with the scheme in the second.
We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
We also shot the lights out in the first quarter. It was unrealistic to assume that could continue. And one of the great advantages of shooting lights out is that rebounds are not necessary and the opponent can't fast break. Once we started missing it allowed South Carolina to do things it couldn't do before.
I agree that Belibi and Prechtel looked much better on the floor than Brink today--really for the trip. I also agree that Henderson was their key to success. Interestingly, Cooke scored 25 against us in the semis and was held to 4 today--so we did some things well on defense.
I am not disappointed to lose a close game to the #1 team on the road--but I am disappointed to blow such a big lead. It was the biggest comeback in the history of South Carolina basketball. I think we are at the point where the coaches need to think carefully about what can be done to even out our performance. These long offensive droughts need to be reduced.
Now, on the the Pac 12. The trip to Washington and Washington State is not without its risks. I hope we can stay healthy as we move into the heart of the omicron conflagration--given all the cancelled games already.
Press conference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEfVQR8r_yE
We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
We also shot the lights out in the first quarter. It was unrealistic to assume that could continue. And one of the great advantages of shooting lights out is that rebounds are not necessary and the opponent can't fast break. Once we started missing it allowed South Carolina to do things it couldn't do before.
I agree that Belibi and Prechtel looked much better on the floor than Brink today--really for the trip. I also agree that Henderson was their key to success. Interestingly, Cooke scored 25 against us in the semis and was held to 4 today--so we did some things well on defense.
I am not disappointed to lose a close game to the #1 team on the road--but I am disappointed to blow such a big lead. It was the biggest comeback in the history of South Carolina basketball. I think we are at the point where the coaches need to think carefully about what can be done to even out our performance. These long offensive droughts need to be reduced.
Now, on the the Pac 12. The trip to Washington and Washington State is not without its risks. I hope we can stay healthy as we move into the heart of the omicron conflagration--given all the cancelled games already.
Press conference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEfVQR8r_yE
1. On O, Stanford played as poorly in the second half (19 points) as it played excellently in the first (42 points). We were outscored by 18 points in H2.
2. Second H2 collapse in a row. Apparently the coaches couldn't come up with any adjustments or other way to brake SC's long rally from 18 down, even after seeing what happened in the 3rd quarter at Tennessee. SC's combination of discipline, poise, energy, and desire earned the win.
3. CB (1 for 7 from the field) needs to improve against serious competition and to be more consistent if the Cardinal is to reach the Final Four next spring. Not playing close to her potential.
4. The point-guard problem came back to haunt us again. AW: 6 TOs. The game probably turned on TOs; SU had 20 while SC had only 7. I'd like to see how many points SC got off those Stanford TOs.
2. Second H2 collapse in a row. Apparently the coaches couldn't come up with any adjustments or other way to brake SC's long rally from 18 down, even after seeing what happened in the 3rd quarter at Tennessee. SC's combination of discipline, poise, energy, and desire earned the win.
3. CB (1 for 7 from the field) needs to improve against serious competition and to be more consistent if the Cardinal is to reach the Final Four next spring. Not playing close to her potential.
4. The point-guard problem came back to haunt us again. AW: 6 TOs. The game probably turned on TOs; SU had 20 while SC had only 7. I'd like to see how many points SC got off those Stanford TOs.
1. On O, Stanford played as poorly in the second half (19 points) as it played excellently in the first (42 points). We were outscored by 18 points in H2.
2. Second H2 collapse in a row. Apparently the coaches couldn't come up with any adjustments or other way to brake SC's long rally from 18 down, even after seeing what happened in the 3rd quarter at Tennessee. SC's combination of discipline, poise, energy, and desire earned the win.
3. CB (1 for 7 from the field) needs to improve against serious competition and to be more consistent if the Cardinal is to reach the Final Four next spring. Not playing close to her potential.
4. The point-guard problem came back to haunt us again. AW: 6 TOs. The game probably turned on TOs; SU had 20 while SC had only 7. I'd like to see how many points SC got off those Stanford TOs.
2. Second H2 collapse in a row. Apparently the coaches couldn't come up with any adjustments or other way to brake SC's long rally from 18 down, even after seeing what happened in the 3rd quarter at Tennessee. SC's combination of discipline, poise, energy, and desire earned the win.
3. CB (1 for 7 from the field) needs to improve against serious competition and to be more consistent if the Cardinal is to reach the Final Four next spring. Not playing close to her potential.
4. The point-guard problem came back to haunt us again. AW: 6 TOs. The game probably turned on TOs; SU had 20 while SC had only 7. I'd like to see how many points SC got off those Stanford TOs.
12-21-2021, 11:33 PM
Chimera summed it up well (funny, I usually agree with Chimera). Destinee Henderson was fantastic and those steals were the difference.
RE: our turnovers....Not entirely sure, but I think every one of them occurred across half-court, and many were at the wing and high post and not even in the backcourt. With the exception from Anna who gave it up 4 times while dribbling, the ball was mostly taken from us while holding it or standing and attempting to pass. Brink, Haley, and Prechtel (and others?) just held it out in front of them and they swiped it. Just lazy on our part and not valuing possession. The good news here, IMO, is this is a really easy thing to drill and work on and it won't happen if we play them again. These turnovers were not from full court defense, pressing, trapping, etc. like we saw from Texas.
Other than the turnovers, my explanation for the 3rd quarter meltdown is two-fold: 1) After halftime and being behind so much, they came out with a big time sense of urgency because if they didn't start making plays they were going to lose. The time pressure drives the urgency. They definitely cranked it up. 2) We started missing. I want to go back and watch the third quarter again, but from recollection we missed 4 easy layups. I really don't think there's enough data to conclude that "we're not a good 3rd quarter team" or "Tara doesn't make the right adjustments" or whatever.
Pretty disappointed in comments referring to certain players shouldn't start, what gives about her, we need more of someone else, she isn't the answer, we can't beat these teams unless, etc. etc. etc. To me, that's big time overreaction. The fact is, we were running the #1 (and probably most talented) team in the country out of their own gym in probably the toughest environment you can find with the refs against us. This coming off a great win against a Top-10 team at their place. I think the coaching staff is pretty happy with this road trip and I would be shocked if they are considering messing with the rotations at this point. There shouldn't be any change to the starting lineup, or the rotations, Cam is the center, Prechtel and Belibi (now that both are healthy) will be the backup posts, Jump will continue to start over Wilson who will be the first guard off the bench, and Lacie is the PG (or the 4th guard, whatever you want to call it). Sprinkle in some other players where you need a specialty (a la Agnes on D, Demetre against a zone, etc.) and it's a done deal. That rotation still has more upside and they will get better and better together. Otherwise, if you start moving too many of the pieces around, you end up generating Haase-like confusion in the middle of the season.
RE: Brink...Many board comments on how impressive Cam has been with improving her fouling discipline this year...until the Tennessee game. So I'm not ready to toss aside her development in this area. Her first foul in this game was b.s. (TOTAL B.S.) or she wouldn't have come off the court. Also, tonight she was playing against the top post and likely 2023 WNBA #1 draft pick and she was bested. She tried to do too much on offense, probably was looking for some love from the refs and didn't get it. And yes, awful shot at the end. So, rough game for sure. Here's the thing though. I love what Prechtel and Belibi bring to the table. But when Cam is playing good she operates on a way different level. Better scorer, faster, can draw/kick, great passer...We need her to take us to the promised land and not just be along for the ride.
I definitely wanted the win today and am sad that we didn't get it. But in the grand scheme, I really like where this team is. I bet the ladies can sense it. Aside from injury, Covid, etc., I think they are flying home knowing they have it in them to repeat.
p.s. Just a question for anyone who might be able to explain this...What was Wilson doing at the end when SC had the ball out of bounds with 3 seconds left? We were only down 2 and could still win if we got a steal on the inbounds. But Anna just looked all confused and was hanging out by half court not guarding anyone at all! Then they were able to just throw the ball in to Littleton who was all alone. Anyone have any idea what was going on there?
RE: our turnovers....Not entirely sure, but I think every one of them occurred across half-court, and many were at the wing and high post and not even in the backcourt. With the exception from Anna who gave it up 4 times while dribbling, the ball was mostly taken from us while holding it or standing and attempting to pass. Brink, Haley, and Prechtel (and others?) just held it out in front of them and they swiped it. Just lazy on our part and not valuing possession. The good news here, IMO, is this is a really easy thing to drill and work on and it won't happen if we play them again. These turnovers were not from full court defense, pressing, trapping, etc. like we saw from Texas.
Other than the turnovers, my explanation for the 3rd quarter meltdown is two-fold: 1) After halftime and being behind so much, they came out with a big time sense of urgency because if they didn't start making plays they were going to lose. The time pressure drives the urgency. They definitely cranked it up. 2) We started missing. I want to go back and watch the third quarter again, but from recollection we missed 4 easy layups. I really don't think there's enough data to conclude that "we're not a good 3rd quarter team" or "Tara doesn't make the right adjustments" or whatever.
Pretty disappointed in comments referring to certain players shouldn't start, what gives about her, we need more of someone else, she isn't the answer, we can't beat these teams unless, etc. etc. etc. To me, that's big time overreaction. The fact is, we were running the #1 (and probably most talented) team in the country out of their own gym in probably the toughest environment you can find with the refs against us. This coming off a great win against a Top-10 team at their place. I think the coaching staff is pretty happy with this road trip and I would be shocked if they are considering messing with the rotations at this point. There shouldn't be any change to the starting lineup, or the rotations, Cam is the center, Prechtel and Belibi (now that both are healthy) will be the backup posts, Jump will continue to start over Wilson who will be the first guard off the bench, and Lacie is the PG (or the 4th guard, whatever you want to call it). Sprinkle in some other players where you need a specialty (a la Agnes on D, Demetre against a zone, etc.) and it's a done deal. That rotation still has more upside and they will get better and better together. Otherwise, if you start moving too many of the pieces around, you end up generating Haase-like confusion in the middle of the season.
RE: Brink...Many board comments on how impressive Cam has been with improving her fouling discipline this year...until the Tennessee game. So I'm not ready to toss aside her development in this area. Her first foul in this game was b.s. (TOTAL B.S.) or she wouldn't have come off the court. Also, tonight she was playing against the top post and likely 2023 WNBA #1 draft pick and she was bested. She tried to do too much on offense, probably was looking for some love from the refs and didn't get it. And yes, awful shot at the end. So, rough game for sure. Here's the thing though. I love what Prechtel and Belibi bring to the table. But when Cam is playing good she operates on a way different level. Better scorer, faster, can draw/kick, great passer...We need her to take us to the promised land and not just be along for the ride.
I definitely wanted the win today and am sad that we didn't get it. But in the grand scheme, I really like where this team is. I bet the ladies can sense it. Aside from injury, Covid, etc., I think they are flying home knowing they have it in them to repeat.
p.s. Just a question for anyone who might be able to explain this...What was Wilson doing at the end when SC had the ball out of bounds with 3 seconds left? We were only down 2 and could still win if we got a steal on the inbounds. But Anna just looked all confused and was hanging out by half court not guarding anyone at all! Then they were able to just throw the ball in to Littleton who was all alone. Anyone have any idea what was going on there?
Chimera summed it up well (funny, I usually agree with Chimera). Destinee Henderson was fantastic and those steals were the difference.
RE: our turnovers....Not entirely sure, but I think every one of them occurred across half-court, and many were at the wing and high post and not even in the backcourt. With the exception from Anna who gave it up 4 times while dribbling, the ball was mostly taken from us while holding it or standing and attempting to pass. Brink, Haley, and Prechtel (and others?) just held it out in front of them and they swiped it. Just lazy on our part and not valuing possession. The good news here, IMO, is this is a really easy thing to drill and work on and it won't happen if we play them again. These turnovers were not from full court defense, pressing, trapping, etc. like we saw from Texas.
Other than the turnovers, my explanation for the 3rd quarter meltdown is two-fold: 1) After halftime and being behind so much, they came out with a big time sense of urgency because if they didn't start making plays they were going to lose. The time pressure drives the urgency. They definitely cranked it up. 2) We started missing. I want to go back and watch the third quarter again, but from recollection we missed 4 easy layups. I really don't think there's enough data to conclude that "we're not a good 3rd quarter team" or "Tara doesn't make the right adjustments" or whatever.
Pretty disappointed in comments referring to certain players shouldn't start, what gives about her, we need more of someone else, she isn't the answer, we can't beat these teams unless, etc. etc. etc. To me, that's big time overreaction. The fact is, we were running the #1 (and probably most talented) team in the country out of their own gym in probably the toughest environment you can find with the refs against us. This coming off a great win against a Top-10 team at their place. I think the coaching staff is pretty happy with this road trip and I would be shocked if they are considering messing with the rotations at this point. There shouldn't be any change to the starting lineup, or the rotations, Cam is the center, Prechtel and Belibi (now that both are healthy) will be the backup posts, Jump will continue to start over Wilson who will be the first guard off the bench, and Lacie is the PG (or the 4th guard, whatever you want to call it). Sprinkle in some other players where you need a specialty (a la Agnes on D, Demetre against a zone, etc.) and it's a done deal. That rotation still has more upside and they will get better and better together. Otherwise, if you start moving too many of the pieces around, you end up generating Haase-like confusion in the middle of the season.
RE: Brink...Many board comments on how impressive Cam has been with improving her fouling discipline this year...until the Tennessee game. So I'm not ready to toss aside her development in this area. Her first foul in this game was b.s. (TOTAL B.S.) or she wouldn't have come off the court. Also, tonight she was playing against the top post and likely 2023 WNBA #1 draft pick and she was bested. She tried to do too much on offense, probably was looking for some love from the refs and didn't get it. And yes, awful shot at the end. So, rough game for sure. Here's the thing though. I love what Prechtel and Belibi bring to the table. But when Cam is playing good she operates on a way different level. Better scorer, faster, can draw/kick, great passer...We need her to take us to the promised land and not just be along for the ride.
I definitely wanted the win today and am sad that we didn't get it. But in the grand scheme, I really like where this team is. I bet the ladies can sense it. Aside from injury, Covid, etc., I think they are flying home knowing they have it in them to repeat.
p.s. Just a question for anyone who might be able to explain this...What was Wilson doing at the end when SC had the ball out of bounds with 3 seconds left? We were only down 2 and could still win if we got a steal on the inbounds. But Anna just looked all confused and was hanging out by half court not guarding anyone at all! Then they were able to just throw the ball in to Littleton who was all alone. Anyone have any idea what was going on there?
RE: our turnovers....Not entirely sure, but I think every one of them occurred across half-court, and many were at the wing and high post and not even in the backcourt. With the exception from Anna who gave it up 4 times while dribbling, the ball was mostly taken from us while holding it or standing and attempting to pass. Brink, Haley, and Prechtel (and others?) just held it out in front of them and they swiped it. Just lazy on our part and not valuing possession. The good news here, IMO, is this is a really easy thing to drill and work on and it won't happen if we play them again. These turnovers were not from full court defense, pressing, trapping, etc. like we saw from Texas.
Other than the turnovers, my explanation for the 3rd quarter meltdown is two-fold: 1) After halftime and being behind so much, they came out with a big time sense of urgency because if they didn't start making plays they were going to lose. The time pressure drives the urgency. They definitely cranked it up. 2) We started missing. I want to go back and watch the third quarter again, but from recollection we missed 4 easy layups. I really don't think there's enough data to conclude that "we're not a good 3rd quarter team" or "Tara doesn't make the right adjustments" or whatever.
Pretty disappointed in comments referring to certain players shouldn't start, what gives about her, we need more of someone else, she isn't the answer, we can't beat these teams unless, etc. etc. etc. To me, that's big time overreaction. The fact is, we were running the #1 (and probably most talented) team in the country out of their own gym in probably the toughest environment you can find with the refs against us. This coming off a great win against a Top-10 team at their place. I think the coaching staff is pretty happy with this road trip and I would be shocked if they are considering messing with the rotations at this point. There shouldn't be any change to the starting lineup, or the rotations, Cam is the center, Prechtel and Belibi (now that both are healthy) will be the backup posts, Jump will continue to start over Wilson who will be the first guard off the bench, and Lacie is the PG (or the 4th guard, whatever you want to call it). Sprinkle in some other players where you need a specialty (a la Agnes on D, Demetre against a zone, etc.) and it's a done deal. That rotation still has more upside and they will get better and better together. Otherwise, if you start moving too many of the pieces around, you end up generating Haase-like confusion in the middle of the season.
RE: Brink...Many board comments on how impressive Cam has been with improving her fouling discipline this year...until the Tennessee game. So I'm not ready to toss aside her development in this area. Her first foul in this game was b.s. (TOTAL B.S.) or she wouldn't have come off the court. Also, tonight she was playing against the top post and likely 2023 WNBA #1 draft pick and she was bested. She tried to do too much on offense, probably was looking for some love from the refs and didn't get it. And yes, awful shot at the end. So, rough game for sure. Here's the thing though. I love what Prechtel and Belibi bring to the table. But when Cam is playing good she operates on a way different level. Better scorer, faster, can draw/kick, great passer...We need her to take us to the promised land and not just be along for the ride.
I definitely wanted the win today and am sad that we didn't get it. But in the grand scheme, I really like where this team is. I bet the ladies can sense it. Aside from injury, Covid, etc., I think they are flying home knowing they have it in them to repeat.
p.s. Just a question for anyone who might be able to explain this...What was Wilson doing at the end when SC had the ball out of bounds with 3 seconds left? We were only down 2 and could still win if we got a steal on the inbounds. But Anna just looked all confused and was hanging out by half court not guarding anyone at all! Then they were able to just throw the ball in to Littleton who was all alone. Anyone have any idea what was going on there?
12-21-2021, 11:33 PM
One of the worst things I saw, was toward the end when she fell to the ground and Stanford was inbounding the ball.. the refs blew the whistle completely giving SC the advantage and taking it away from Stanford…
(12-21-2021, 07:13 PM)Maple Leaf Wrote: Boston got the benefit of the refs throughout the game, and the refs allowed jungle ball to contribute to sc's win.
One of the worst things I saw, was toward the end when she fell to the ground and Stanford was inbounding the ball.. the refs blew the whistle completely giving SC the advantage and taking it away from Stanford…
(12-21-2021, 07:13 PM)Maple Leaf Wrote: Boston got the benefit of the refs throughout the game, and the refs allowed jungle ball to contribute to sc's win.
12-21-2021, 11:55 PM
(12-21-2021, 11:33 PM)petersalas Wrote: One of the worst things I saw, was toward the end when she fell to the ground and Stanford was inbounding the ball.. the refs blew the whistle completely giving SC the advantage and taking it away from Stanford…
(12-21-2021, 07:13 PM)Maple Leaf Wrote: Boston got the benefit of the refs throughout the game, and the refs allowed jungle ball to contribute to sc's win.
That was horrible and I commented real time, too. I mean, it was like, Stanford cannot push the ball in transition because Boston fell to the ground . . . WTF?!?
And BillBradley, that entire coverage was ridiculous. Why wasn't Stanford manned up with the person covering the in-bounder doubling Henderson? It almost looked as if Stanford was in a zone D for that last in-bounds play by SC (hard to tell because camera angle didn't cover the entire court).
(12-21-2021, 11:33 PM)petersalas Wrote: One of the worst things I saw, was toward the end when she fell to the ground and Stanford was inbounding the ball.. the refs blew the whistle completely giving SC the advantage and taking it away from Stanford…
(12-21-2021, 07:13 PM)Maple Leaf Wrote: Boston got the benefit of the refs throughout the game, and the refs allowed jungle ball to contribute to sc's win.
That was horrible and I commented real time, too. I mean, it was like, Stanford cannot push the ball in transition because Boston fell to the ground . . . WTF?!?
And BillBradley, that entire coverage was ridiculous. Why wasn't Stanford manned up with the person covering the in-bounder doubling Henderson? It almost looked as if Stanford was in a zone D for that last in-bounds play by SC (hard to tell because camera angle didn't cover the entire court).
(12-21-2021, 08:06 PM)chimera Wrote: I thought going in we would lose and hoped it was at least close. I feel better going in pessimistic to these types of games. The result was ok, losing to the #1 team on their court in a nail biter is not a bad thing. Henderson coming back from injury for them was the key. If she was still out I think we roll them. She had a great game. I agree about the reffing. Hate to say it because all our turnovers, some where they literally plucked the ball out of someone's hands, was the real culprit, but the refs were bad all game and totally screwed us in the last couple of minutes. Jones was going to foul whoever it was, Littleton I think, but didn't really and Wilson had already got the ball poked out. Lexie went up and got a rebound off their missed FT and sure looked like she was bodied and shoved when she had two hands on the ball. That ended in a held ball that went SC's way. It sure looked to me that Boston was leaning heavily onto Belibi and basically pushed her into the lane on that play. Went to a board with fans from all teams and they, who have no horse in the race, saw it that way as well. Boston is great and apparently a wonderful person, but man, they let her get away with a lot in this one.
As for Brink, yeah, that last shot was not a good choice, and she had too many fouls and bad decisions. These two games were not her best. I'm sure she will bounce back. I do think she may have been the victim of some poor reffing. Seemed like two of her fouls, or at least one, she had position on a box out and somehow got called for the foul anyway, like what was up with that? She "displaced" Boston? Don't think so.
Overall I don't think this loss hurts much. In fact, in the end it might be better to lose a close one, not have the target on the back, and use the close loss as fuel to improve. Belibi had a very good game. Lexie had a great first half and a pretty good game. Prechtel did a good job. Jump was fine. Jones was fine, though her rebounding numbers were low. Henderson was our kryptonite. Our turnovers were not bad passes so much, but quick hands from her. A good lesson for the team.
Agree
(12-21-2021, 11:33 PM)BillBradley Wrote: Chimera summed it up well (funny, I usually agree with Chimera). Destinee Henderson was fantastic and those steals were the difference.
RE: our turnovers....Not entirely sure, but I think every one of them occurred across half-court, and many were at the wing and high post and not even in the backcourt. With the exception from Anna who gave it up 4 times while dribbling, the ball was mostly taken from us while holding it or standing and attempting to pass. Brink, Haley, and Prechtel (and others?) just held it out in front of them and they swiped it. Just lazy on our part and not valuing possession. The good news here, IMO, is this is a really easy thing to drill and work on and it won't happen if we play them again. These turnovers were not from full court defense, pressing, trapping, etc. like we saw from Texas.
Other than the turnovers, my explanation for the 3rd quarter meltdown is two-fold: 1) After halftime and being behind so much, they came out with a big time sense of urgency because if they didn't start making plays they were going to lose. The time pressure drives the urgency. They definitely cranked it up. 2) We started missing. I want to go back and watch the third quarter again, but from recollection we missed 4 easy layups. I really don't think there's enough data to conclude that "we're not a good 3rd quarter team" or "Tara doesn't make the right adjustments" or whatever.
Pretty disappointed in comments referring to certain players shouldn't start, what gives about her, we need more of someone else, she isn't the answer, we can't beat these teams unless, etc. etc. etc. To me, that's big time overreaction. The fact is, we were running the #1 (and probably most talented) team in the country out of their own gym in probably the toughest environment you can find with the refs against us. This coming off a great win against a Top-10 team at their place. I think the coaching staff is pretty happy with this road trip and I would be shocked if they are considering messing with the rotations at this point. There shouldn't be any change to the starting lineup, or the rotations, Cam is the center, Prechtel and Belibi (now that both are healthy) will be the backup posts, Jump will continue to start over Wilson who will be the first guard off the bench, and Lacie is the PG (or the 4th guard, whatever you want to call it). Sprinkle in some other players where you need a specialty (a la Agnes on D, Demetre against a zone, etc.) and it's a done deal. That rotation still has more upside and they will get better and better together. Otherwise, if you start moving too many of the pieces around, you end up generating Haase-like confusion in the middle of the season.
RE: Brink...Many board comments on how impressive Cam has been with improving her fouling discipline this year...until the Tennessee game. So I'm not ready to toss aside her development in this area. Her first foul in this game was b.s. (TOTAL B.S.) or she wouldn't have come off the court. Also, tonight she was playing against the top post and likely 2023 WNBA #1 draft pick and she was bested. She tried to do too much on offense, probably was looking for some love from the refs and didn't get it. And yes, awful shot at the end. So, rough game for sure. Here's the thing though. I love what Prechtel and Belibi bring to the table. But when Cam is playing good she operates on a way different level. Better scorer, faster, can draw/kick, great passer...We need her to take us to the promised land and not just be along for the ride.
I definitely wanted the win today and am sad that we didn't get it. But in the grand scheme, I really like where this team is. I bet the ladies can sense it. Aside from injury, Covid, etc., I think they are flying home knowing they have it in them to repeat.
p.s. Just a question for anyone who might be able to explain this...What was Wilson doing at the end when SC had the ball out of bounds with 3 seconds left? We were only down 2 and could still win if we got a steal on the inbounds. But Anna just looked all confused and was hanging out by half court not guarding anyone at all! Then they were able to just throw the ball in to Littleton who was all alone. Anyone have any idea what was going on there?
You ABSOLUTELY nailed it Bill, on all points. I especially like your comparison to Haase. I haven't posted it yet, but was planning on it - to mention that one of the hallmarks and things that bug me about JH is that he never settles on a starting line up and it's like a mix and match sub pattern. I believe that it's one of the main reasons that his teams have been mediocre at best. OTOH, Tara set up her line up from the get go. She experimented a bit between Wilson and Hull, and gave minutes to almost all the players especially frosh so they could show what they can do. But despite having 17 players with about 12 who could start on just about every D1 team or get significant minutes, Tara hasn't had a problem picking out who should be on the court and sticking with them.
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2021, 12:37 AM by treetop11.)
(12-21-2021, 08:06 PM)chimera Wrote: I thought going in we would lose and hoped it was at least close. I feel better going in pessimistic to these types of games. The result was ok, losing to the #1 team on their court in a nail biter is not a bad thing. Henderson coming back from injury for them was the key. If she was still out I think we roll them. She had a great game. I agree about the reffing. Hate to say it because all our turnovers, some where they literally plucked the ball out of someone's hands, was the real culprit, but the refs were bad all game and totally screwed us in the last couple of minutes. Jones was going to foul whoever it was, Littleton I think, but didn't really and Wilson had already got the ball poked out. Lexie went up and got a rebound off their missed FT and sure looked like she was bodied and shoved when she had two hands on the ball. That ended in a held ball that went SC's way. It sure looked to me that Boston was leaning heavily onto Belibi and basically pushed her into the lane on that play. Went to a board with fans from all teams and they, who have no horse in the race, saw it that way as well. Boston is great and apparently a wonderful person, but man, they let her get away with a lot in this one.
As for Brink, yeah, that last shot was not a good choice, and she had too many fouls and bad decisions. These two games were not her best. I'm sure she will bounce back. I do think she may have been the victim of some poor reffing. Seemed like two of her fouls, or at least one, she had position on a box out and somehow got called for the foul anyway, like what was up with that? She "displaced" Boston? Don't think so.
Overall I don't think this loss hurts much. In fact, in the end it might be better to lose a close one, not have the target on the back, and use the close loss as fuel to improve. Belibi had a very good game. Lexie had a great first half and a pretty good game. Prechtel did a good job. Jump was fine. Jones was fine, though her rebounding numbers were low. Henderson was our kryptonite. Our turnovers were not bad passes so much, but quick hands from her. A good lesson for the team.
Agree
(12-21-2021, 11:33 PM)BillBradley Wrote: Chimera summed it up well (funny, I usually agree with Chimera). Destinee Henderson was fantastic and those steals were the difference.
RE: our turnovers....Not entirely sure, but I think every one of them occurred across half-court, and many were at the wing and high post and not even in the backcourt. With the exception from Anna who gave it up 4 times while dribbling, the ball was mostly taken from us while holding it or standing and attempting to pass. Brink, Haley, and Prechtel (and others?) just held it out in front of them and they swiped it. Just lazy on our part and not valuing possession. The good news here, IMO, is this is a really easy thing to drill and work on and it won't happen if we play them again. These turnovers were not from full court defense, pressing, trapping, etc. like we saw from Texas.
Other than the turnovers, my explanation for the 3rd quarter meltdown is two-fold: 1) After halftime and being behind so much, they came out with a big time sense of urgency because if they didn't start making plays they were going to lose. The time pressure drives the urgency. They definitely cranked it up. 2) We started missing. I want to go back and watch the third quarter again, but from recollection we missed 4 easy layups. I really don't think there's enough data to conclude that "we're not a good 3rd quarter team" or "Tara doesn't make the right adjustments" or whatever.
Pretty disappointed in comments referring to certain players shouldn't start, what gives about her, we need more of someone else, she isn't the answer, we can't beat these teams unless, etc. etc. etc. To me, that's big time overreaction. The fact is, we were running the #1 (and probably most talented) team in the country out of their own gym in probably the toughest environment you can find with the refs against us. This coming off a great win against a Top-10 team at their place. I think the coaching staff is pretty happy with this road trip and I would be shocked if they are considering messing with the rotations at this point. There shouldn't be any change to the starting lineup, or the rotations, Cam is the center, Prechtel and Belibi (now that both are healthy) will be the backup posts, Jump will continue to start over Wilson who will be the first guard off the bench, and Lacie is the PG (or the 4th guard, whatever you want to call it). Sprinkle in some other players where you need a specialty (a la Agnes on D, Demetre against a zone, etc.) and it's a done deal. That rotation still has more upside and they will get better and better together. Otherwise, if you start moving too many of the pieces around, you end up generating Haase-like confusion in the middle of the season.
RE: Brink...Many board comments on how impressive Cam has been with improving her fouling discipline this year...until the Tennessee game. So I'm not ready to toss aside her development in this area. Her first foul in this game was b.s. (TOTAL B.S.) or she wouldn't have come off the court. Also, tonight she was playing against the top post and likely 2023 WNBA #1 draft pick and she was bested. She tried to do too much on offense, probably was looking for some love from the refs and didn't get it. And yes, awful shot at the end. So, rough game for sure. Here's the thing though. I love what Prechtel and Belibi bring to the table. But when Cam is playing good she operates on a way different level. Better scorer, faster, can draw/kick, great passer...We need her to take us to the promised land and not just be along for the ride.
I definitely wanted the win today and am sad that we didn't get it. But in the grand scheme, I really like where this team is. I bet the ladies can sense it. Aside from injury, Covid, etc., I think they are flying home knowing they have it in them to repeat.
p.s. Just a question for anyone who might be able to explain this...What was Wilson doing at the end when SC had the ball out of bounds with 3 seconds left? We were only down 2 and could still win if we got a steal on the inbounds. But Anna just looked all confused and was hanging out by half court not guarding anyone at all! Then they were able to just throw the ball in to Littleton who was all alone. Anyone have any idea what was going on there?
You ABSOLUTELY nailed it Bill, on all points. I especially like your comparison to Haase. I haven't posted it yet, but was planning on it - to mention that one of the hallmarks and things that bug me about JH is that he never settles on a starting line up and it's like a mix and match sub pattern. I believe that it's one of the main reasons that his teams have been mediocre at best. OTOH, Tara set up her line up from the get go. She experimented a bit between Wilson and Hull, and gave minutes to almost all the players especially frosh so they could show what they can do. But despite having 17 players with about 12 who could start on just about every D1 team or get significant minutes, Tara hasn't had a problem picking out who should be on the court and sticking with them.
12-22-2021, 01:12 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2021, 01:30 AM by BillBradley.)
(12-21-2021, 11:55 PM)teejers1 Wrote:Yes, that Boston play was ridiculous! The refs falling for her fake injury and stopping our transition was at a pivotal point in the game. Total b.s.(12-21-2021, 11:33 PM)petersalas Wrote: One of the worst things I saw, was toward the end when she fell to the ground and Stanford was inbounding the ball.. the refs blew the whistle completely giving SC the advantage and taking it away from Stanford…
(12-21-2021, 07:13 PM)Maple Leaf Wrote: Boston got the benefit of the refs throughout the game, and the refs allowed jungle ball to contribute to sc's win.
That was horrible and I commented real time, too. I mean, it was like, Stanford cannot push the ball in transition because Boston fell to the ground . . . WTF?!?
And BillBradley, that entire coverage was ridiculous. Why wasn't Stanford manned up with the person covering the in-bounder doubling Henderson? It almost looked as if Stanford was in a zone D for that last in-bounds play by SC (hard to tell because camera angle didn't cover the entire court).
@Teejers, totally agree on that last play. We should've doubled Henderson and denied everyone else. All I can think of is that we had something up our sleeve for a stacked set by them and then we got surprised when they put 2 in the backcourt. But to not guard anyone at all...that was rough.
Posting just cuz I looked it up and thought others might want to know. Here are Henderson's steals from the stats play-by-play, showing when they happened and who she took it from. 5 of them in the 3rd quarter from 4 different players. Yikes. And none in the 4th.
Q1 00:20 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #3 Wilson, Anna
00:20 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q2 05:47 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #3 Wilson, Anna
05:47 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 09:16 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #30 Jones, Haley
09:16 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 06:51 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #24 Hull, Lacie
06:51 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 06:26 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #3 Wilson, Anna
06:26 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 03:20 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #3 Wilson, Anna
03:20 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 01:54 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #12 Hull, Lexie
01:54 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2021, 01:30 AM by BillBradley.)
(12-21-2021, 11:55 PM)teejers1 Wrote:Yes, that Boston play was ridiculous! The refs falling for her fake injury and stopping our transition was at a pivotal point in the game. Total b.s.(12-21-2021, 11:33 PM)petersalas Wrote: One of the worst things I saw, was toward the end when she fell to the ground and Stanford was inbounding the ball.. the refs blew the whistle completely giving SC the advantage and taking it away from Stanford…
(12-21-2021, 07:13 PM)Maple Leaf Wrote: Boston got the benefit of the refs throughout the game, and the refs allowed jungle ball to contribute to sc's win.
That was horrible and I commented real time, too. I mean, it was like, Stanford cannot push the ball in transition because Boston fell to the ground . . . WTF?!?
And BillBradley, that entire coverage was ridiculous. Why wasn't Stanford manned up with the person covering the in-bounder doubling Henderson? It almost looked as if Stanford was in a zone D for that last in-bounds play by SC (hard to tell because camera angle didn't cover the entire court).
@Teejers, totally agree on that last play. We should've doubled Henderson and denied everyone else. All I can think of is that we had something up our sleeve for a stacked set by them and then we got surprised when they put 2 in the backcourt. But to not guard anyone at all...that was rough.
Posting just cuz I looked it up and thought others might want to know. Here are Henderson's steals from the stats play-by-play, showing when they happened and who she took it from. 5 of them in the 3rd quarter from 4 different players. Yikes. And none in the 4th.
Q1 00:20 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #3 Wilson, Anna
00:20 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q2 05:47 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #3 Wilson, Anna
05:47 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 09:16 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #30 Jones, Haley
09:16 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 06:51 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #24 Hull, Lacie
06:51 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 06:26 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #3 Wilson, Anna
06:26 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 03:20 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #3 Wilson, Anna
03:20 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
Q3 01:54 STN - TURN
Turnover By STN #12 Hull, Lexie
01:54 USC - Steal By USC #3 Henderson, Destanni
12-22-2021, 06:01 AM
After the National Championship game against UConn in 2010 I refuse to put much stock in a sizable halftime lead. It was only an 8 point lead but it was a low scoring game at 20-12. They ended up scoring 41 in the second half to beat us.
If Cam can get out of her funk and the team can tighten up on the turnovers there is so much promise for a potential rematch.
If Cam can get out of her funk and the team can tighten up on the turnovers there is so much promise for a potential rematch.
After the National Championship game against UConn in 2010 I refuse to put much stock in a sizable halftime lead. It was only an 8 point lead but it was a low scoring game at 20-12. They ended up scoring 41 in the second half to beat us.
If Cam can get out of her funk and the team can tighten up on the turnovers there is so much promise for a potential rematch.
If Cam can get out of her funk and the team can tighten up on the turnovers there is so much promise for a potential rematch.
12-22-2021, 06:20 AM
I was frustrated that Prechtel couldn't hold on to the rebounds she grabbed. Belibi OTOH almost always secures the ball on rebounds.
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
12-22-2021, 06:49 AM
One thing is undeniable. That first half of basketball was one of the most beautiful offensive halves we have ever played against serious competition.
12-22-2021, 10:03 AM
(12-21-2021, 09:32 PM)81alum Wrote: We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
Here you go: http://stats.statbroadcast.com/broadcast/?id=376029 Select the Visitor Stats.
(12-21-2021, 09:32 PM)81alum Wrote: We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
Here you go: http://stats.statbroadcast.com/broadcast/?id=376029 Select the Visitor Stats.
12-22-2021, 11:22 AM
(12-22-2021, 06:49 AM)81alum Wrote: One thing is undeniable. That first half of basketball was one of the most beautiful offensive halves we have ever played against serious competition.Agree 81, that was a clinic. Not sure I've ever seen anything quite like that under those conditions in all my years of watching Stanford WBB.
(12-22-2021, 06:49 AM)81alum Wrote: One thing is undeniable. That first half of basketball was one of the most beautiful offensive halves we have ever played against serious competition.Agree 81, that was a clinic. Not sure I've ever seen anything quite like that under those conditions in all my years of watching Stanford WBB.
12-22-2021, 11:38 AM
(12-22-2021, 10:03 AM)crackpot Wrote:(12-21-2021, 09:32 PM)81alum Wrote: We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
Here you go: http://stats.statbroadcast.com/broadcast/?id=376029 Select the Visitor Stats.
Wow our +/- is downright ugly. At first I thought that was a snapshot of the 3rd Q but it appears to be the final stats? I'm not sure how they calculate EFF but Prechtel appears to have had one of the best games scoring only 3 points.
Points off TOs: 26-6 pretty much tells the story.
(12-22-2021, 10:03 AM)crackpot Wrote:(12-21-2021, 09:32 PM)81alum Wrote: We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
Here you go: http://stats.statbroadcast.com/broadcast/?id=376029 Select the Visitor Stats.
Wow our +/- is downright ugly. At first I thought that was a snapshot of the 3rd Q but it appears to be the final stats? I'm not sure how they calculate EFF but Prechtel appears to have had one of the best games scoring only 3 points.
Points off TOs: 26-6 pretty much tells the story.
12-22-2021, 02:44 PM
(12-22-2021, 11:38 AM)qwerty49 Wrote:(12-22-2021, 10:03 AM)crackpot Wrote:(12-21-2021, 09:32 PM)81alum Wrote: We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
Here you go: http://stats.statbroadcast.com/broadcast/?id=376029 Select the Visitor Stats.
Wow our +/- is downright ugly. At first I thought that was a snapshot of the 3rd Q but it appears to be the final stats? I'm not sure how they calculate EFF but Prechtel appears to have had one of the best games scoring only 3 points.
Points off TOs: 26-6 pretty much tells the story.
I'm sure 9 boards and 5 blocks contributed to Prechtel's positive numeric analyses . . . but it could have been 12 boards (and a couple fewer buckets for SC, to boot). And she has to go 2-3 from the stripe. Nits, in the Big Picture of the game, but in NCAAs and "win or go home," every nit matters.
I have an official scoring question. If Team A has the ball and the possession arrow is to Team B, and there is a tie-up, does the person with the ball on Team A who gets tied up get charged with a turnover? And does the person who ties up the ball get credited with a steal? Do they fall into team stats? Or are they just disregarded altogether in the stat line?
We did detailed scoring for HS girls teams, and we decided to skip over those encounters entirely, as it seems very arbitrary - i.e., dependent on the possession arrow - to penalize one player with a turnover when possession arrow is not her team's way, while imposing no penalty on a tie-up when the possession arrow is her team's way. Just curious how those things are properly statted, per official rules. If anyone knows.
(12-22-2021, 11:38 AM)qwerty49 Wrote:(12-22-2021, 10:03 AM)crackpot Wrote:(12-21-2021, 09:32 PM)81alum Wrote: We scored more points in EACH of the first two quarters than we scored in the entirely of the second half. Our offense can be "disrupted" in a way that suddenly reversed success, quite clearly. Where can one obtain the +/- for this game? I suspect it will be quite revealing about who was in and who was out during our good and poor phases.
Here you go: http://stats.statbroadcast.com/broadcast/?id=376029 Select the Visitor Stats.
Wow our +/- is downright ugly. At first I thought that was a snapshot of the 3rd Q but it appears to be the final stats? I'm not sure how they calculate EFF but Prechtel appears to have had one of the best games scoring only 3 points.
Points off TOs: 26-6 pretty much tells the story.
I'm sure 9 boards and 5 blocks contributed to Prechtel's positive numeric analyses . . . but it could have been 12 boards (and a couple fewer buckets for SC, to boot). And she has to go 2-3 from the stripe. Nits, in the Big Picture of the game, but in NCAAs and "win or go home," every nit matters.
I have an official scoring question. If Team A has the ball and the possession arrow is to Team B, and there is a tie-up, does the person with the ball on Team A who gets tied up get charged with a turnover? And does the person who ties up the ball get credited with a steal? Do they fall into team stats? Or are they just disregarded altogether in the stat line?
We did detailed scoring for HS girls teams, and we decided to skip over those encounters entirely, as it seems very arbitrary - i.e., dependent on the possession arrow - to penalize one player with a turnover when possession arrow is not her team's way, while imposing no penalty on a tie-up when the possession arrow is her team's way. Just curious how those things are properly statted, per official rules. If anyone knows.
12-22-2021, 02:45 PM
Contrarian that I am, I want to defend Cameron from the apparently unanimous view, both here and on the ESPN broadcast, that she made a indefensibly terrible decision to shoot that shot with about 18 seconds left in the game. There is validity to that view, but . . . .
If, as one of the world's foremost Stanford women's basketball critics (Lobo) was quick to point out (with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight), she tries to drive to the hole, let's play out what would have happened: Almost certainly, Boston is NOT going to let her drive to the rim and shoot a layup. There is a high degree of likelihood that Boston does whatever is necessary to create a turnover. And there is ZERO percent chance that she is going to get called for a foul, regardless of what she does. Anybody who thinks there is any chance whatsoever that Boston gets called for a foul in that situation was watching a very different game than the one I was watching or the one I watched in San Antonio last spring. She is a heck of a player, but the treatment she gets from officials who ignore her near universal hip checks on screens, frequent traveling, and very aggressive defense is ridiculous.
So let's say Cam tries to drive. She gets manhandled, but no foul is called, so there is a turnover. At that point, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Lobo (ignoring the uncalled foul that just occurred, just like she ignored the many other uncalled fouls on Boston over the last 8 quarters of SC v. Stanford basketball she has observed in San Antonio and Columbia), says something like, "Brink needs to make better decisions. Boston is way too great a defensive player for Brink to think she can get around her." On this board, we post, more honestly, "Cameron needs to know that there is no way that Boston is going to get called for a foul, so she needs to do something other than try to drive to the basket."
Of course, Cameron could have looked to pass, instead of shoot. But there is something to be said for shooting with (about) 18 seconds left, as there is still game time to possibly recover from a miss. Of course, getting a better shot later in the possession is better than taking a contested bad shot earlier, but there is something to be said for taking a shot early.
My bottom line is that, while it is easy for all of us to say, after she misses, that she should have never taken that shot, given the realities of the situation at the moment, it was not so clearly a horrible decision, at least to me. If you are going to play the most subjectively officiated sport this side of figure skating, you need to adjust to the officiating. It might not be fair that nothing is ever going to be called on Boston, but it is reality. It is legit for Cameron to factor that reality into her decision making.
Some on this board hate Bill Walton as a commentator. My special disdain is for Lobo. She personally observed approximately 5.8 straight (to her) quarters of Stanford basketball (against AZ and then against SC) where Stanford took exactly TWO free throws, without ever commenting on it. I know she knew Stanford took one free throw through 3+ quarters in San Antonio, because she looked at her stat sheet when I yelled out that statistic. Do you think there is a snowball's chance in you know where that she would not point that out if it happened to UConn? [I do realize the ridiculousness of imaging that it would ever happen to UConn, but you get the point.]
I'm tired of how Stanford's women's basketball team gets treated, by the officials and the commentators. Tara has done so much for the sport. Including, by the way, for the SC coach. I'm sick of Lobo and the whole UConn/SC/East Coast lot. Don't get me started on the Olympic basketball team selection process.
That said, I am okay with the loss at this point in the season. There are things for Tara and the team to work on. They will, with perhaps more urgency than if they had won (which I definitely wanted to happen, as you can probably tell from this post). As I used to tell my law school students in Trial Practice classes, winning has a whole lot of advantages over losing. Losing has only one advantage over winning: It is a much better teacher.
If, as one of the world's foremost Stanford women's basketball critics (Lobo) was quick to point out (with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight), she tries to drive to the hole, let's play out what would have happened: Almost certainly, Boston is NOT going to let her drive to the rim and shoot a layup. There is a high degree of likelihood that Boston does whatever is necessary to create a turnover. And there is ZERO percent chance that she is going to get called for a foul, regardless of what she does. Anybody who thinks there is any chance whatsoever that Boston gets called for a foul in that situation was watching a very different game than the one I was watching or the one I watched in San Antonio last spring. She is a heck of a player, but the treatment she gets from officials who ignore her near universal hip checks on screens, frequent traveling, and very aggressive defense is ridiculous.
So let's say Cam tries to drive. She gets manhandled, but no foul is called, so there is a turnover. At that point, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Lobo (ignoring the uncalled foul that just occurred, just like she ignored the many other uncalled fouls on Boston over the last 8 quarters of SC v. Stanford basketball she has observed in San Antonio and Columbia), says something like, "Brink needs to make better decisions. Boston is way too great a defensive player for Brink to think she can get around her." On this board, we post, more honestly, "Cameron needs to know that there is no way that Boston is going to get called for a foul, so she needs to do something other than try to drive to the basket."
Of course, Cameron could have looked to pass, instead of shoot. But there is something to be said for shooting with (about) 18 seconds left, as there is still game time to possibly recover from a miss. Of course, getting a better shot later in the possession is better than taking a contested bad shot earlier, but there is something to be said for taking a shot early.
My bottom line is that, while it is easy for all of us to say, after she misses, that she should have never taken that shot, given the realities of the situation at the moment, it was not so clearly a horrible decision, at least to me. If you are going to play the most subjectively officiated sport this side of figure skating, you need to adjust to the officiating. It might not be fair that nothing is ever going to be called on Boston, but it is reality. It is legit for Cameron to factor that reality into her decision making.
Some on this board hate Bill Walton as a commentator. My special disdain is for Lobo. She personally observed approximately 5.8 straight (to her) quarters of Stanford basketball (against AZ and then against SC) where Stanford took exactly TWO free throws, without ever commenting on it. I know she knew Stanford took one free throw through 3+ quarters in San Antonio, because she looked at her stat sheet when I yelled out that statistic. Do you think there is a snowball's chance in you know where that she would not point that out if it happened to UConn? [I do realize the ridiculousness of imaging that it would ever happen to UConn, but you get the point.]
I'm tired of how Stanford's women's basketball team gets treated, by the officials and the commentators. Tara has done so much for the sport. Including, by the way, for the SC coach. I'm sick of Lobo and the whole UConn/SC/East Coast lot. Don't get me started on the Olympic basketball team selection process.
That said, I am okay with the loss at this point in the season. There are things for Tara and the team to work on. They will, with perhaps more urgency than if they had won (which I definitely wanted to happen, as you can probably tell from this post). As I used to tell my law school students in Trial Practice classes, winning has a whole lot of advantages over losing. Losing has only one advantage over winning: It is a much better teacher.
Contrarian that I am, I want to defend Cameron from the apparently unanimous view, both here and on the ESPN broadcast, that she made a indefensibly terrible decision to shoot that shot with about 18 seconds left in the game. There is validity to that view, but . . . .
If, as one of the world's foremost Stanford women's basketball critics (Lobo) was quick to point out (with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight), she tries to drive to the hole, let's play out what would have happened: Almost certainly, Boston is NOT going to let her drive to the rim and shoot a layup. There is a high degree of likelihood that Boston does whatever is necessary to create a turnover. And there is ZERO percent chance that she is going to get called for a foul, regardless of what she does. Anybody who thinks there is any chance whatsoever that Boston gets called for a foul in that situation was watching a very different game than the one I was watching or the one I watched in San Antonio last spring. She is a heck of a player, but the treatment she gets from officials who ignore her near universal hip checks on screens, frequent traveling, and very aggressive defense is ridiculous.
So let's say Cam tries to drive. She gets manhandled, but no foul is called, so there is a turnover. At that point, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Lobo (ignoring the uncalled foul that just occurred, just like she ignored the many other uncalled fouls on Boston over the last 8 quarters of SC v. Stanford basketball she has observed in San Antonio and Columbia), says something like, "Brink needs to make better decisions. Boston is way too great a defensive player for Brink to think she can get around her." On this board, we post, more honestly, "Cameron needs to know that there is no way that Boston is going to get called for a foul, so she needs to do something other than try to drive to the basket."
Of course, Cameron could have looked to pass, instead of shoot. But there is something to be said for shooting with (about) 18 seconds left, as there is still game time to possibly recover from a miss. Of course, getting a better shot later in the possession is better than taking a contested bad shot earlier, but there is something to be said for taking a shot early.
My bottom line is that, while it is easy for all of us to say, after she misses, that she should have never taken that shot, given the realities of the situation at the moment, it was not so clearly a horrible decision, at least to me. If you are going to play the most subjectively officiated sport this side of figure skating, you need to adjust to the officiating. It might not be fair that nothing is ever going to be called on Boston, but it is reality. It is legit for Cameron to factor that reality into her decision making.
Some on this board hate Bill Walton as a commentator. My special disdain is for Lobo. She personally observed approximately 5.8 straight (to her) quarters of Stanford basketball (against AZ and then against SC) where Stanford took exactly TWO free throws, without ever commenting on it. I know she knew Stanford took one free throw through 3+ quarters in San Antonio, because she looked at her stat sheet when I yelled out that statistic. Do you think there is a snowball's chance in you know where that she would not point that out if it happened to UConn? [I do realize the ridiculousness of imaging that it would ever happen to UConn, but you get the point.]
I'm tired of how Stanford's women's basketball team gets treated, by the officials and the commentators. Tara has done so much for the sport. Including, by the way, for the SC coach. I'm sick of Lobo and the whole UConn/SC/East Coast lot. Don't get me started on the Olympic basketball team selection process.
That said, I am okay with the loss at this point in the season. There are things for Tara and the team to work on. They will, with perhaps more urgency than if they had won (which I definitely wanted to happen, as you can probably tell from this post). As I used to tell my law school students in Trial Practice classes, winning has a whole lot of advantages over losing. Losing has only one advantage over winning: It is a much better teacher.
If, as one of the world's foremost Stanford women's basketball critics (Lobo) was quick to point out (with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight), she tries to drive to the hole, let's play out what would have happened: Almost certainly, Boston is NOT going to let her drive to the rim and shoot a layup. There is a high degree of likelihood that Boston does whatever is necessary to create a turnover. And there is ZERO percent chance that she is going to get called for a foul, regardless of what she does. Anybody who thinks there is any chance whatsoever that Boston gets called for a foul in that situation was watching a very different game than the one I was watching or the one I watched in San Antonio last spring. She is a heck of a player, but the treatment she gets from officials who ignore her near universal hip checks on screens, frequent traveling, and very aggressive defense is ridiculous.
So let's say Cam tries to drive. She gets manhandled, but no foul is called, so there is a turnover. At that point, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Lobo (ignoring the uncalled foul that just occurred, just like she ignored the many other uncalled fouls on Boston over the last 8 quarters of SC v. Stanford basketball she has observed in San Antonio and Columbia), says something like, "Brink needs to make better decisions. Boston is way too great a defensive player for Brink to think she can get around her." On this board, we post, more honestly, "Cameron needs to know that there is no way that Boston is going to get called for a foul, so she needs to do something other than try to drive to the basket."
Of course, Cameron could have looked to pass, instead of shoot. But there is something to be said for shooting with (about) 18 seconds left, as there is still game time to possibly recover from a miss. Of course, getting a better shot later in the possession is better than taking a contested bad shot earlier, but there is something to be said for taking a shot early.
My bottom line is that, while it is easy for all of us to say, after she misses, that she should have never taken that shot, given the realities of the situation at the moment, it was not so clearly a horrible decision, at least to me. If you are going to play the most subjectively officiated sport this side of figure skating, you need to adjust to the officiating. It might not be fair that nothing is ever going to be called on Boston, but it is reality. It is legit for Cameron to factor that reality into her decision making.
Some on this board hate Bill Walton as a commentator. My special disdain is for Lobo. She personally observed approximately 5.8 straight (to her) quarters of Stanford basketball (against AZ and then against SC) where Stanford took exactly TWO free throws, without ever commenting on it. I know she knew Stanford took one free throw through 3+ quarters in San Antonio, because she looked at her stat sheet when I yelled out that statistic. Do you think there is a snowball's chance in you know where that she would not point that out if it happened to UConn? [I do realize the ridiculousness of imaging that it would ever happen to UConn, but you get the point.]
I'm tired of how Stanford's women's basketball team gets treated, by the officials and the commentators. Tara has done so much for the sport. Including, by the way, for the SC coach. I'm sick of Lobo and the whole UConn/SC/East Coast lot. Don't get me started on the Olympic basketball team selection process.
That said, I am okay with the loss at this point in the season. There are things for Tara and the team to work on. They will, with perhaps more urgency than if they had won (which I definitely wanted to happen, as you can probably tell from this post). As I used to tell my law school students in Trial Practice classes, winning has a whole lot of advantages over losing. Losing has only one advantage over winning: It is a much better teacher.
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