[Mick]

1698543919[/url]']
Question for Lex and Giants. If, in 2023, the Padres and Giants switched managers at the beginning of the year, how do you think each manager would have done?

Mick, I don’t know.  And I don’t care.  It’s an impossible question to answer. You are free to mourn the loss of Kapler.  I’m thrilled.  “Different strokes for different folks. And so on and so on and scoobey doobie  doobie.”

It's an easy question to answer, because it is simple speculation. If you gave Kapler a team with that much talent, he would have absolutely crushed it. Just my opinion. Kapler won 79 games with some of the worst hitting and fielding in the league. And as far as how Melvin would have done with the Giants...well, we'll get to see in 2024, won't we? My guess is worse than 79 wins, unless he and Farhan manage to score multiple choice free agents AND the majority of the 2nd year players that Zaidi drafted dramatically improve. And maybe they will under Melvin's leadership, I certainly hope so.

---

Thanks, Mick.  You answered a number of questions I had re: why you don’t think Melvin is “all that”.

The one thing I would point out - I disagree with using average in the context you detailed.  It is better to use median.  IMO, because the 107 is such an outlier, the average is significantly skewed.  The median (81) represents a truer expectation based on past performance.

Giants, you're certainly free to use the median instead of the mean, and if it were a population of 50 or 100 or even 10, I would do the same. But it's a population of four seasons, so I can't disregard the 107 wins as blithely as you and Lex do. That's more wins than any of the prior 38 Giant managers has had...ever. And 13 of those 38 managers were Hall of Famers. More than Durocher. More than McGraw. More than Bill Terry, Humm Baby, Dusty, Alou or Bochy. And it came after three Bochy seasons that were worse than any year Kapler ever had as a manager...ever. Bochy's last season, the Giants won 77 games. Kapler's first full season, they won 107. That's a 30 game turnaround. Bob Melvin never had a 30 game turnaround in a full season. Actually that's not true...he managed Seattle when they went from 93 wins to 63 wins. I suppose that qualifies, albeit in the opposite direction.

While we still have a strong difference of opinion regarding Melvin, I think we can agree the focus is now on Zaidi and how he navigates the off-season.

What I don’t understand, Mick, is why you continue to brush aside the comments of Webb, Yaz and Zaidi.  Seldom do players publicly make such comments.  We can disagree on Webb as a CY candidate - yes, no way he wins.  But please don’t use the W-L record to support your position.  He had the worst run support in baseball. And he is the closest thing to a star the Giants have.

Yaz is not a star.  But he’s as solid as they come.  And a leader on the Giants.

I didn't say anything about Zaidi's comments. Please don't mischaracterize what I've said as criticism of Zaidi's comments. As for Webb, I suspect his frustrations were more with the terrible fielding and terrible hitting, as I've said. Webb had four one-run losses, so if he had better run and field support, his 11-13 should have been 15-9, like he was the prior year. Interestingly, Webb didn't get the loss for any two run losses, and only one three-run loss. All the rest of his losses were by four or more runs. And I already said positive things about him. 

As for Yaz...I disagree with you, slightly. The point I was getting at is that Yaz was a star.  Emphasis on "was". In 2019 and 2020, he was absolutely a star. He finished 8th in MVP voting in 2020, when he had a 164 OPS+ at .968 and led the league in triples. His OPS+ declined the next two years, was at 97 in 2022, and his batting average the last three years was .224, .214 and .233. If that's "solid", I'd hate to see what you consider "average" to be (MLB batting average was .248 incidentally, Yaz was 15 points south of that). And this year, injuries limited him to 106 games. It's much, much easier to blame the manager when your skills have declined, rather than to say "I was briefly a star, my skills crashed back to earth, and I can't field or hit as well as I used to." Yaz is implying that he would have done better with another manager. Yeah, right.

Here's a prediction: Yaz will stink next year, he'll say he needs to get untracked, but he never will. He will have aged out. It's already happened, and he blamed Kapler, as Cain/Webb blamed Kapler, as Zaidi blamed Kapler. Everyone else can buy into the idea that it was the terrible clubhouse caused by Kapler. News flash: it was the terrible clubhouse atmosphere caused by players that Zaidi chose who couldn't hit or field. And the same thing is going to happen next year, only worse.

Kapler was Zaidis first managerial choice.  He picked him knowing it would not go over particularly well.  So, that he came out near the end of the year and said they weren’t ready when it mattered most spoke volumes. 

Added together it appears that they stopped playing for Kapler.  When that happens, the manager is

Melvin is not going to turn chickens-t into chicken salad.  Now it’s on Zaidi to improve the roster.  Better chance to do so with Kapler gone. Players know what’s going on.  And if there was that much public grumbling, it’s reasonable to conclude that there was much more that did not come out.

As for SD, I don’t know what happened.  But he has a 20 year track record.  And a good one at that.

We don't disagree on much. Melvin does have a good, not great 20 year track record. Made the playoffs 8 times in 20 seasons. Finished 1st in his division four times. Got past the wild card or CS three times. Never made the World Series. Hey, he's a good manager. And when the Giants fail next year -- and they will, assuming they miss out on top flight free agents per usual -- no one will blame Bob Melvin, because BoMel fits the traditional manager mode, same as Bochy.

[Mick]

1698543919[/url]']
Question for Lex and Giants. If, in 2023, the Padres and Giants switched managers at the beginning of the year, how do you think each manager would have done?

Mick, I don’t know.  And I don’t care.  It’s an impossible question to answer. You are free to mourn the loss of Kapler.  I’m thrilled.  “Different strokes for different folks. And so on and so on and scoobey doobie  doobie.”

It's an easy question to answer, because it is simple speculation. If you gave Kapler a team with that much talent, he would have absolutely crushed it. Just my opinion. Kapler won 79 games with some of the worst hitting and fielding in the league. And as far as how Melvin would have done with the Giants...well, we'll get to see in 2024, won't we? My guess is worse than 79 wins, unless he and Farhan manage to score multiple choice free agents AND the majority of the 2nd year players that Zaidi drafted dramatically improve. And maybe they will under Melvin's leadership, I certainly hope so.

---

Thanks, Mick.  You answered a number of questions I had re: why you don’t think Melvin is “all that”.

The one thing I would point out - I disagree with using average in the context you detailed.  It is better to use median.  IMO, because the 107 is such an outlier, the average is significantly skewed.  The median (81) represents a truer expectation based on past performance.

Giants, you're certainly free to use the median instead of the mean, and if it were a population of 50 or 100 or even 10, I would do the same. But it's a population of four seasons, so I can't disregard the 107 wins as blithely as you and Lex do. That's more wins than any of the prior 38 Giant managers has had...ever. And 13 of those 38 managers were Hall of Famers. More than Durocher. More than McGraw. More than Bill Terry, Humm Baby, Dusty, Alou or Bochy. And it came after three Bochy seasons that were worse than any year Kapler ever had as a manager...ever. Bochy's last season, the Giants won 77 games. Kapler's first full season, they won 107. That's a 30 game turnaround. Bob Melvin never had a 30 game turnaround in a full season. Actually that's not true...he managed Seattle when they went from 93 wins to 63 wins. I suppose that qualifies, albeit in the opposite direction.

While we still have a strong difference of opinion regarding Melvin, I think we can agree the focus is now on Zaidi and how he navigates the off-season.

What I don’t understand, Mick, is why you continue to brush aside the comments of Webb, Yaz and Zaidi.  Seldom do players publicly make such comments.  We can disagree on Webb as a CY candidate - yes, no way he wins.  But please don’t use the W-L record to support your position.  He had the worst run support in baseball. And he is the closest thing to a star the Giants have.

Yaz is not a star.  But he’s as solid as they come.  And a leader on the Giants.

I didn't say anything about Zaidi's comments. Please don't mischaracterize what I've said as criticism of Zaidi's comments. As for Webb, I suspect his frustrations were more with the terrible fielding and terrible hitting, as I've said. Webb had four one-run losses, so if he had better run and field support, his 11-13 should have been 15-9, like he was the prior year. Interestingly, Webb didn't get the loss for any two run losses, and only one three-run loss. All the rest of his losses were by four or more runs. And I already said positive things about him. 

As for Yaz...I disagree with you, slightly. The point I was getting at is that Yaz was a star.  Emphasis on "was". In 2019 and 2020, he was absolutely a star. He finished 8th in MVP voting in 2020, when he had a 164 OPS+ at .968 and led the league in triples. His OPS+ declined the next two years, was at 97 in 2022, and his batting average the last three years was .224, .214 and .233. If that's "solid", I'd hate to see what you consider "average" to be (MLB batting average was .248 incidentally, Yaz was 15 points south of that). And this year, injuries limited him to 106 games. It's much, much easier to blame the manager when your skills have declined, rather than to say "I was briefly a star, my skills crashed back to earth, and I can't field or hit as well as I used to." Yaz is implying that he would have done better with another manager. Yeah, right.

Here's a prediction: Yaz will stink next year, he'll say he needs to get untracked, but he never will. He will have aged out. It's already happened, and he blamed Kapler, as Cain/Webb blamed Kapler, as Zaidi blamed Kapler. Everyone else can buy into the idea that it was the terrible clubhouse caused by Kapler. News flash: it was the terrible clubhouse atmosphere caused by players that Zaidi chose who couldn't hit or field. And the same thing is going to happen next year, only worse.

Kapler was Zaidis first managerial choice.  He picked him knowing it would not go over particularly well.  So, that he came out near the end of the year and said they weren’t ready when it mattered most spoke volumes. 

Added together it appears that they stopped playing for Kapler.  When that happens, the manager is

Melvin is not going to turn chickens-t into chicken salad.  Now it’s on Zaidi to improve the roster.  Better chance to do so with Kapler gone. Players know what’s going on.  And if there was that much public grumbling, it’s reasonable to conclude that there was much more that did not come out.

As for SD, I don’t know what happened.  But he has a 20 year track record.  And a good one at that.

We don't disagree on much. Melvin does have a good, not great 20 year track record. Made the playoffs 8 times in 20 seasons. Finished 1st in his division four times. Got past the wild card or CS three times. Never made the World Series. Hey, he's a good manager. And when the Giants fail next year -- and they will, assuming they miss out on top flight free agents per usual -- no one will blame Bob Melvin, because BoMel fits the traditional manager mode, same as Bochy.

[Giants]

Mick, in answer to your query re: switching Melvin/Kapler….

Padres - I don’t think it would have mattered.  The Pads were a lost cause from the start because the construction of the roster was flawed.  As we say in cribbage, Preller dealt Melvin an Alameda straight.

Giants. - I believe they might have made the playoffs.  The comments coming from the clubhouse near the end of the season were telling - the manager had lost the team.  Melvin would have kept the wheels from coming completely off the wagon.  (besides, Melvin never would have pinch hit Mathias for Crawford, an in-game move decision that ranks among the worst ever made by an S.F. manager)

[Giants]

Mick, in answer to your query re: switching Melvin/Kapler….

Padres - I don’t think it would have mattered.  The Pads were a lost cause from the start because the construction of the roster was flawed.  As we say in cribbage, Preller dealt Melvin an Alameda straight.

Giants. - I believe they might have made the playoffs.  The comments coming from the clubhouse near the end of the season were telling - the manager had lost the team.  Melvin would have kept the wheels from coming completely off the wagon.  (besides, Melvin never would have pinch hit Mathias for Crawford, an in-game move decision that ranks among the worst ever made by an S.F. manager)

[lex24]

Good example of a manager eschewing analytics a very high leverage situation in last nights Ranger win.  Up 3-1 one out in 8th 1 on.  Ketel Marte slaughters lefties.  Bochy let Chapman, who is wildly inconsistent these days, pitch to him.  Primarily, I think, cause he didn’t want to use LeClerc for 5 outs. 

All the data said don’t let Chapman pitch to Marte.  Bochy ignored it.  Took guts.  Massive second guessing if things go south.  Marte hit it hard, but an inning ending DP.  

Tough night though for Rangers.  Bullpen beat up.  Scherzer hurt.  And worse, Garcia looks like he hurt his oblique.  

Rangers might  have won the game and lost the series last night.

[lex24]

Good example of a manager eschewing analytics a very high leverage situation in last nights Ranger win.  Up 3-1 one out in 8th 1 on.  Ketel Marte slaughters lefties.  Bochy let Chapman, who is wildly inconsistent these days, pitch to him.  Primarily, I think, cause he didn’t want to use LeClerc for 5 outs. 

All the data said don’t let Chapman pitch to Marte.  Bochy ignored it.  Took guts.  Massive second guessing if things go south.  Marte hit it hard, but an inning ending DP.  

Tough night though for Rangers.  Bullpen beat up.  Scherzer hurt.  And worse, Garcia looks like he hurt his oblique.  

Rangers might  have won the game and lost the series last night.

[OutsiderFan]

Rangers might  have won the game and lost the series last night.

Exactly my thought.

But if Marcus Semien - who led MLB in hits - picks it up the Rangers could still find a way to win the series. I think the baseball gods are telling Scherzer to hang up his cleats.

[OutsiderFan]

Rangers might  have won the game and lost the series last night.

Exactly my thought.

But if Marcus Semien - who led MLB in hits - picks it up the Rangers could still find a way to win the series. I think the baseball gods are telling Scherzer to hang up his cleats.

[Mick]

Interesting article in The Athletic about the Top 40 baseball free agents. The article discusses the Top 40 in order of most to least valuable. The article lists the player's attributes and basic statistics, 2023 and career WAR, 2023 salary and likely team(s) for destinations.

Top 40 MLB free agents for 2023-24: Contract predictions, team fits for Ohtani, Yamamoto, more - The Athletic

What caught my eye are two things: first, only one Giant is mentioned, Michael Conforto, and he's listed at #36. He's also listed as "likely return to the Giants." He had a marginal year (97 OPS+) and is slated to make $18 million...but is making noise about leaving. And I really hope that he does leave. We'll know by November 9. The other interesting thing is that the Giants are listed as a likely destination for 15 of the 40 free agents, making the SFG's the most popular "destination" team.

2024 San Francisco Giants Free Agents Tracker | Spotrac

I interpret these statistics in two ways: that they Giants don't have many attractive free agents (they have eight free agents, another free agent at a club option and three free agents who have player options). So of the SFG's 12 free agents, only one was attractive enough to make the Top 40. The other interesting piece is that Farhan has assembled such a weak roster and that the Giants have such an end-to-end need, that the Giants are in the mix for 15 of the Top 40.

Separately, I was thinking about the lack of success the Giants experienced with their 2023 free agents. Here's a 2022 Sports Illustrated article written by SF Giants insiders. They ranked the Top 50 free agents by suitability for the Giants in 2023. Saving you the suspense, the Giants didn't take any of the first 31 free agents. They signed #32 (Sean Manaea), #40 (Michael Conforto), #45 (Ross Stripling), #47 (Mitch Haniger) and #48 (Joc Pederson).

Ranking the top 50 MLB free agents: Who fits the SF Giants? - Sports Illustrated San Francisco Giants News, Analysis and More

I'd say that about sums it up. Crazy.

This article says Crawford, Pederson and Wood are gone; and Junis and Brebbia will return. No word on Perez, Johnson or Ross.

3 San Francisco Giants free agents who will leave, and 2 who will return in 2024 (aroundthefoghorn.com)

[Mick]

Interesting article in The Athletic about the Top 40 baseball free agents. The article discusses the Top 40 in order of most to least valuable. The article lists the player's attributes and basic statistics, 2023 and career WAR, 2023 salary and likely team(s) for destinations.

Top 40 MLB free agents for 2023-24: Contract predictions, team fits for Ohtani, Yamamoto, more - The Athletic

What caught my eye are two things: first, only one Giant is mentioned, Michael Conforto, and he's listed at #36. He's also listed as "likely return to the Giants." He had a marginal year (97 OPS+) and is slated to make $18 million...but is making noise about leaving. And I really hope that he does leave. We'll know by November 9. The other interesting thing is that the Giants are listed as a likely destination for 15 of the 40 free agents, making the SFG's the most popular "destination" team.

2024 San Francisco Giants Free Agents Tracker | Spotrac

I interpret these statistics in two ways: that they Giants don't have many attractive free agents (they have eight free agents, another free agent at a club option and three free agents who have player options). So of the SFG's 12 free agents, only one was attractive enough to make the Top 40. The other interesting piece is that Farhan has assembled such a weak roster and that the Giants have such an end-to-end need, that the Giants are in the mix for 15 of the Top 40.

Separately, I was thinking about the lack of success the Giants experienced with their 2023 free agents. Here's a 2022 Sports Illustrated article written by SF Giants insiders. They ranked the Top 50 free agents by suitability for the Giants in 2023. Saving you the suspense, the Giants didn't take any of the first 31 free agents. They signed #32 (Sean Manaea), #40 (Michael Conforto), #45 (Ross Stripling), #47 (Mitch Haniger) and #48 (Joc Pederson).

Ranking the top 50 MLB free agents: Who fits the SF Giants? - Sports Illustrated San Francisco Giants News, Analysis and More

I'd say that about sums it up. Crazy.

This article says Crawford, Pederson and Wood are gone; and Junis and Brebbia will return. No word on Perez, Johnson or Ross.

3 San Francisco Giants free agents who will leave, and 2 who will return in 2024 (aroundthefoghorn.com)

[Giants]

Zaidi recently discussed last year’s situation.  He acknowledged a strategic error - putting all his eggs in the Judge/Correa basket.  When neither panned out, he had to scramble to fill out the roster with other free agents.

He indicated this year he will not be focusing all his energy on a particular free agent (see Ohtani).  Instead, he will employ a strategy that is more inclusive of the entire class.  

Making a mistake is one thing, compounding it by doing the same thing again is unacceptable.  I appreciate Zaidi’s forthcoming comments on the topic.

[Giants]

Zaidi recently discussed last year’s situation.  He acknowledged a strategic error - putting all his eggs in the Judge/Correa basket.  When neither panned out, he had to scramble to fill out the roster with other free agents.

He indicated this year he will not be focusing all his energy on a particular free agent (see Ohtani).  Instead, he will employ a strategy that is more inclusive of the entire class.  

Making a mistake is one thing, compounding it by doing the same thing again is unacceptable.  I appreciate Zaidi’s forthcoming comments on the topic.

[cardcrimson]

Congrats to Bochy. Pulled the right strings, yet again.

[cardcrimson]

Congrats to Bochy. Pulled the right strings, yet again.

[skip75]

Congrats to Bochy. Pulled the right strings, yet again.

4th WS title as a manager ties him with Joe Torre & Walter Alston.  Trailing only Connie Mack (5) and Casey Stengel & Joe McCarthy (7 each).  Quite an exclusive list.

[skip75]

Congrats to Bochy. Pulled the right strings, yet again.

4th WS title as a manager ties him with Joe Torre & Walter Alston.  Trailing only Connie Mack (5) and Casey Stengel & Joe McCarthy (7 each).  Quite an exclusive list.

[Mick]

Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

[Mick]

Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

[Giants]

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

[Giants]

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

[lex24]

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Yep.  Thanks for posting.

[lex24]

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Yep.  Thanks for posting.

[Mick]

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

[Mick]

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

[Giants]

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

[Giants]

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

[lex24]

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Mick. 3 questions:

1.  Name a manager that wins without talent.

2. Give me the name of ANYONE that suggests Kapler is in the same stratosphere as Bochy as a manager. Just one person.

3. Give me the name of a player that speaks of Kapler in the same manner as players talk about Bochy.

I truly don’t get why you push this. Kapler won’t manage again. Front office, maybe.

[lex24]

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Mick. 3 questions:

1.  Name a manager that wins without talent.

2. Give me the name of ANYONE that suggests Kapler is in the same stratosphere as Bochy as a manager. Just one person.

3. Give me the name of a player that speaks of Kapler in the same manner as players talk about Bochy.

I truly don’t get why you push this. Kapler won’t manage again. Front office, maybe.

[Mick]

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

[Mick]

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

[Giants]

1699062786[/url]']

1699053320[/url]']

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

..and I’ll bet none of the HOF managers did anything closely comparable to pinch hitting Mathias for Crawford.  :)

(heck, that action alone is worthy of a plaque mention for a guy who belongs in the Hall of Shame)

[Giants]

1699062786[/url]']

1699053320[/url]']

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

1698936796[/url]']
Bochy can really run a team, when he has players. Congratulations to him, great manager.

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

..and I’ll bet none of the HOF managers did anything closely comparable to pinch hitting Mathias for Crawford.  :)

(heck, that action alone is worthy of a plaque mention for a guy who belongs in the Hall of Shame)

[Mick]

1699062786[/url]']

1699053320[/url]']

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

..and I’ll bet none of the HOF managers did anything closely comparable to pinch hitting Mathias for Crawford.  :)

(heck, that action alone is worthy of a plaque mention for a guy who belongs in the Hall of Shame)

Well, since you brought it up, let's take Joe Torre and his closely comparable moves just in the playoffs...

1) Dropped 30 year old All Star Alex Rodriguez to 8th in the batting order in Game 4 of the 2006 ALDS vs. Detroit. ARod was in the middle of a 7 year stretch when he averaged 47 homers per year. Batted 8th. Lost in four to the Tigers.

2) 2003, Game 4 vs. Florida, 11th inning. Had the best reliever in baseball, Mariano Rivera. Pitched Jeff Weaver (7-9, 4.53 ERA) instead. Weaver gives up walkoff home run. Lost to Marlins in six games.

3) 2002, left Orlando Hernandez in to start the 8th inning of the ALDS game 2 vs. Angels. Had Stanton, Karsay and Mariano Rivera in the pen. El Duque gave up back to back home runs to give Angels the lead in a series the Yankees lost 3-1.

4) Benched speedy Kenny Lofton against Boston in Game 4, 2006 ALCS when Curt Schilling was pitching on a bloody leg. Kenny was a natural and gifted bunter, who three years later would cause Clemens to pull a hamstring chasing down one of Lofton's bunt hits. Lofton was second on Yanks in OPS that series, but only played in three of seven games. Hit an HR, on base 5 times in 12 plate appearances. Yanks lost in seven.

5) Didn't stop game 2 of ALDS vs. Cleveland when midges swarmed Joba Chamberlain on the mound, a move that Torre publicly regretted. Lost series in four games.

6) In perhaps Torre's ultimate Matthias-over-Crawford move, Torre benched 4x Gold Glove CF Bernie Williams in favor of career end-of-bench-fifth-string Bubba Crosby in G5 ALDS versus Indians. Crosby was a reckless fielder who ran into Gary Sheffield in a critical misplay at the wall, a ball that was Sheffield's per the announcing team. Two runs scored, Angels took the lead, Yankees lost the game, lost the series in five.

Every manager, good and bad, makes a Mattias-over-Crawford move. Sometimes, they make numerous Matthias-over-Crawford moves, sometimes in the playoffs.

[Mick]

1699062786[/url]']

1699053320[/url]']

1699048659[/url]']

1698940665[/url]']

No qualifier needed…

Bochy now ranks among the best baseball managers ever.  Period.

Heck, ESPN posted an article suggesting he may be at the top of the list.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/3879...hy-manager

Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

..and I’ll bet none of the HOF managers did anything closely comparable to pinch hitting Mathias for Crawford.  :)

(heck, that action alone is worthy of a plaque mention for a guy who belongs in the Hall of Shame)

Well, since you brought it up, let's take Joe Torre and his closely comparable moves just in the playoffs...

1) Dropped 30 year old All Star Alex Rodriguez to 8th in the batting order in Game 4 of the 2006 ALDS vs. Detroit. ARod was in the middle of a 7 year stretch when he averaged 47 homers per year. Batted 8th. Lost in four to the Tigers.

2) 2003, Game 4 vs. Florida, 11th inning. Had the best reliever in baseball, Mariano Rivera. Pitched Jeff Weaver (7-9, 4.53 ERA) instead. Weaver gives up walkoff home run. Lost to Marlins in six games.

3) 2002, left Orlando Hernandez in to start the 8th inning of the ALDS game 2 vs. Angels. Had Stanton, Karsay and Mariano Rivera in the pen. El Duque gave up back to back home runs to give Angels the lead in a series the Yankees lost 3-1.

4) Benched speedy Kenny Lofton against Boston in Game 4, 2006 ALCS when Curt Schilling was pitching on a bloody leg. Kenny was a natural and gifted bunter, who three years later would cause Clemens to pull a hamstring chasing down one of Lofton's bunt hits. Lofton was second on Yanks in OPS that series, but only played in three of seven games. Hit an HR, on base 5 times in 12 plate appearances. Yanks lost in seven.

5) Didn't stop game 2 of ALDS vs. Cleveland when midges swarmed Joba Chamberlain on the mound, a move that Torre publicly regretted. Lost series in four games.

6) In perhaps Torre's ultimate Matthias-over-Crawford move, Torre benched 4x Gold Glove CF Bernie Williams in favor of career end-of-bench-fifth-string Bubba Crosby in G5 ALDS versus Indians. Crosby was a reckless fielder who ran into Gary Sheffield in a critical misplay at the wall, a ball that was Sheffield's per the announcing team. Two runs scored, Angels took the lead, Yankees lost the game, lost the series in five.

Every manager, good and bad, makes a Mattias-over-Crawford move. Sometimes, they make numerous Matthias-over-Crawford moves, sometimes in the playoffs.

[lex24]

1699116231[/url]']

1699074782[/url]']

1699062786[/url]']

1699053320[/url]']

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Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

..and I’ll bet none of the HOF managers did anything closely comparable to pinch hitting Mathias for Crawford.  :)

(heck, that action alone is worthy of a plaque mention for a guy who belongs in the Hall of Shame)

Well, since you brought it up, let's take Joe Torre and his closely comparable moves just in the playoffs...

1) Dropped 30 year old All Star Alex Rodriguez to 8th in the batting order in Game 4 of the 2006 ALDS vs. Detroit. ARod was in the middle of a 7 year stretch when he averaged 47 homers per year. Batted 8th. Lost in four to the Tigers.

2) 2003, Game 4 vs. Florida, 11th inning. Had the best reliever in baseball, Mariano Rivera. Pitched Jeff Weaver (7-9, 4.53 ERA) instead. Weaver gives up walkoff home run. Lost to Marlins in six games.

3) 2002, left Orlando Hernandez in to start the 8th inning of the ALDS game 2 vs. Angels. Had Stanton, Karsay and Mariano Rivera in the pen. El Duque gave up back to back home runs to give Angels the lead in a series the Yankees lost 3-1.

4) Benched speedy Kenny Lofton against Boston in Game 4, 2006 ALCS when Curt Schilling was pitching on a bloody leg. Kenny was a natural and gifted bunter, who three years later would cause Clemens to pull a hamstring chasing down one of Lofton's bunt hits. Lofton was second on Yanks in OPS that series, but only played in three of seven games. Hit an HR, on base 5 times in 12 plate appearances. Yanks lost in seven.

5) Didn't stop game 2 of ALDS vs. Cleveland when midges swarmed Joba Chamberlain on the mound, a move that Torre publicly regretted. Lost series in four games.

6) In perhaps Torre's ultimate Matthias-over-Crawford move, Torre benched 4x Gold Glove CF Bernie Williams in favor of career end-of-bench-fifth-string Bubba Crosby in G5 ALDS versus Indians. Crosby was a reckless fielder who ran into Gary Sheffield in a critical misplay at the wall, a ball that was Sheffield's per the announcing team. Two runs scored, Angels took the lead, Yankees lost the game, lost the series in five.

Every manager, good and bad, makes a Mattias-over-Crawford move.  Sometimes, they make numerous Matthias-over-Crawford moves, sometimes in the playoffs.

Mick,

I don’t think you answered any of my questions.  But I’ll ask another - what point are you trying to prove?  Not sure I get it. Are you upset that the Giants fired Kapler? 


Cause you can throw out any numbers or dredge up “mistakes” all you want.  But you wont find anyone in the baseball world that puts Kapler in the same conversation with Torre or Bochy.


Edit - I was curious on the Bernie Williams thing. He DH’d that game and some others in the series. I wonder if he was banged up.

[lex24]

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Beg to differ. I added the qualifier because 13 of Bochy's 26 seasons -- a full 50% -- were worse records than the worst full year ever managed by the guy who got fired. That's 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2013, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Presumably those were seasons when free agents didn't work out, regulars had bad years, too many rookies, etc. You know, seasons during which Kapler never experienced those things.

Without looking anything up, I’m guessing Mack, Alston, McCarthy, Stengel and Torre all had some rough seasons, too.  And yet they are all in the HOF and are considered among the greatest ever to manage a team. Bochy will join them in the Hall on the first ballot once he is eligible (and I kinda doubt his plaque will include any qualifiers).  

IMO, he is unquestionably the best manager the game has seen since the dawn of the expansion era (1961).

Well, Stengel had the Mets, so you're probably right about that. But Stengel and Torre also managed the Yankees for 12 years apiece, which is when both won their World Series . McCarthy had them for 16 years, won all his WS Championships with them. McCarthy had three seasons with Ted Williams/DiMaggio/Pesky/Stephens/Doerr/Tebbetts' Red Sox. He got his start with the Cubs, who had Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Grimm, Guy Bush, Charlie Root, Grover Cleveland Alexander and others.

In 24 years, McCarthy never finished worse than .525, his last season. Alston finished worse than Kapler's worst season just three times in 23 years. Torre only finished worse than Kapler's worst year nine times, 31% of his career. Stengel finished worse than Kapler's worst season 12 times in his 25 years...all of them with sad sack teams, including the Dodgers, Bees/Braves, and the Mets. Most managers who coached the Yankees for a long time had similar results. Miller Huggins only had five seasons worse than Kapler's worst in his 17 years, 12 of which were with the Yankees.

Connie Mack coached for 53 years, and finished with a record worse than Kapler's worst year 25 times...but his first ten years, he finished with strong records.

John McGraw, who coached the Giants for 31 years and the Orioles for three years, only had three years that were worse than Kapler's worst.

And I don't think any HoF plaque contains any qualifiers. Cy Young's doesn't mention that he lost more games than all but 16 pitchers won. Connie Mack's doesn't mention that he had 25 losing seasons as a manager, just his five WS championships.

..and I’ll bet none of the HOF managers did anything closely comparable to pinch hitting Mathias for Crawford.  :)

(heck, that action alone is worthy of a plaque mention for a guy who belongs in the Hall of Shame)

Well, since you brought it up, let's take Joe Torre and his closely comparable moves just in the playoffs...

1) Dropped 30 year old All Star Alex Rodriguez to 8th in the batting order in Game 4 of the 2006 ALDS vs. Detroit. ARod was in the middle of a 7 year stretch when he averaged 47 homers per year. Batted 8th. Lost in four to the Tigers.

2) 2003, Game 4 vs. Florida, 11th inning. Had the best reliever in baseball, Mariano Rivera. Pitched Jeff Weaver (7-9, 4.53 ERA) instead. Weaver gives up walkoff home run. Lost to Marlins in six games.

3) 2002, left Orlando Hernandez in to start the 8th inning of the ALDS game 2 vs. Angels. Had Stanton, Karsay and Mariano Rivera in the pen. El Duque gave up back to back home runs to give Angels the lead in a series the Yankees lost 3-1.

4) Benched speedy Kenny Lofton against Boston in Game 4, 2006 ALCS when Curt Schilling was pitching on a bloody leg. Kenny was a natural and gifted bunter, who three years later would cause Clemens to pull a hamstring chasing down one of Lofton's bunt hits. Lofton was second on Yanks in OPS that series, but only played in three of seven games. Hit an HR, on base 5 times in 12 plate appearances. Yanks lost in seven.

5) Didn't stop game 2 of ALDS vs. Cleveland when midges swarmed Joba Chamberlain on the mound, a move that Torre publicly regretted. Lost series in four games.

6) In perhaps Torre's ultimate Matthias-over-Crawford move, Torre benched 4x Gold Glove CF Bernie Williams in favor of career end-of-bench-fifth-string Bubba Crosby in G5 ALDS versus Indians. Crosby was a reckless fielder who ran into Gary Sheffield in a critical misplay at the wall, a ball that was Sheffield's per the announcing team. Two runs scored, Angels took the lead, Yankees lost the game, lost the series in five.

Every manager, good and bad, makes a Mattias-over-Crawford move.  Sometimes, they make numerous Matthias-over-Crawford moves, sometimes in the playoffs.

Mick,

I don’t think you answered any of my questions.  But I’ll ask another - what point are you trying to prove?  Not sure I get it. Are you upset that the Giants fired Kapler? 


Cause you can throw out any numbers or dredge up “mistakes” all you want.  But you wont find anyone in the baseball world that puts Kapler in the same conversation with Torre or Bochy.


Edit - I was curious on the Bernie Williams thing. He DH’d that game and some others in the series. I wonder if he was banged up.

[lex24]

Yoshinobo Yamamoto.  Please, Giants. Sign him.

[lex24]

Yoshinobo Yamamoto.  Please, Giants. Sign him.

[Mick]

Yoshinobo Yamamoto.  Please, Giants. Sign him.

Yes please. And Ohtani and Lee Jung-Ho (KBO). And like I said, I'll buy season tickets if they sign two of the following: SS Munetaka Murekami ( probably not eligible until 2025), and pitchers Naoyuki Uwasawa, Kona Takahashi, Shota Imanaga, and Yuki Matsui.

[Mick]

Yoshinobo Yamamoto.  Please, Giants. Sign him.

Yes please. And Ohtani and Lee Jung-Ho (KBO). And like I said, I'll buy season tickets if they sign two of the following: SS Munetaka Murekami ( probably not eligible until 2025), and pitchers Naoyuki Uwasawa, Kona Takahashi, Shota Imanaga, and Yuki Matsui.