[cardcrimson]

Not understanding this one. Granted Slater had a tough time staying healthy, but trading him and a bunch of cash for a pitcher the Giants immediately sent to AAA?

[cardcrimson]

Not understanding this one. Granted Slater had a tough time staying healthy, but trading him and a bunch of cash for a pitcher the Giants immediately sent to AAA?

[Giants]

Not understanding this one. Granted Slater had a tough time staying healthy, but trading him and a bunch of cash for a pitcher the Giants immediately sent to AAA?

As much as I criticize Zaidi, I thought this was a smart move.  Slater’s value has plummeted.  I assume the Reds made the best offer SF received.  

If Luciano can figure out how to make the routine plays at SS (yes, a very big If), I think Ahmed will be the next to pack his bags.  

SF needs to get younger and faster!

[Giants]

Not understanding this one. Granted Slater had a tough time staying healthy, but trading him and a bunch of cash for a pitcher the Giants immediately sent to AAA?

As much as I criticize Zaidi, I thought this was a smart move.  Slater’s value has plummeted.  I assume the Reds made the best offer SF received.  

If Luciano can figure out how to make the routine plays at SS (yes, a very big If), I think Ahmed will be the next to pack his bags.  

SF needs to get younger and faster!

[old spanish trail]

brobdingnagian Slater fan here so I'm sorry to see him go, but I understand. He can't stay healthy and they need to give Matos playing time. It's past time to keep sending him down. Speaking of which, I'm sorry they sent Bivins down. Can't thy put Jackson on the dl? :)

[old spanish trail]

brobdingnagian Slater fan here so I'm sorry to see him go, but I understand. He can't stay healthy and they need to give Matos playing time. It's past time to keep sending him down. Speaking of which, I'm sorry they sent Bivins down. Can't thy put Jackson on the dl? :)

[Giants]

Well, re: Ahmed - that didn’t take long.  He was DFA’d today.  Off to Sacramento - Ingram.  And, of course, Slater is headed to Cincy for Young.

Returning from the IL - Flores, Estrada and Snell.

That puts the 40 roster at 39. I think we will see the 40th slot go to Ray right after the break.

[Giants]

Well, re: Ahmed - that didn’t take long.  He was DFA’d today.  Off to Sacramento - Ingram.  And, of course, Slater is headed to Cincy for Young.

Returning from the IL - Flores, Estrada and Snell.

That puts the 40 roster at 39. I think we will see the 40th slot go to Ray right after the break.

[qwerty49]

I haven't seen either of them play -- is Wisely a ML shortstop?  Or are the Giants just waiting for Luciano to figure it out?

[qwerty49]

I haven't seen either of them play -- is Wisely a ML shortstop?  Or are the Giants just waiting for Luciano to figure it out?

[BobK]

Fitzgerald is the SS tonight. We shall see but ok so far

[BobK]

Fitzgerald is the SS tonight. We shall see but ok so far

[Mick]

I haven't seen either of them play -- is Wisely a ML shortstop?  Or are the Giants just waiting for Luciano to figure it out?

On very little data, Wisely appears to be better at SS (+1Rtot) than CF (0Rtot) and 2B (-1Rtot). He's played 26 games at shortstop, only one error and 15 DPs. His range factor per 9 innings is 4.76 vs. the MLB average of 3.88, so he's getting to almost one more full chance per game than the typical shortstop. Those are some excellent numbers. And he's hitting .278/.313/.421/.734. That's a 113 OPS+. I'd say he's doing great.

[Mick]

I haven't seen either of them play -- is Wisely a ML shortstop?  Or are the Giants just waiting for Luciano to figure it out?

On very little data, Wisely appears to be better at SS (+1Rtot) than CF (0Rtot) and 2B (-1Rtot). He's played 26 games at shortstop, only one error and 15 DPs. His range factor per 9 innings is 4.76 vs. the MLB average of 3.88, so he's getting to almost one more full chance per game than the typical shortstop. Those are some excellent numbers. And he's hitting .278/.313/.421/.734. That's a 113 OPS+. I'd say he's doing great.

[Giants]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

[Giants]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

[Mick]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

[Mick]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

[Giants]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

[Giants]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

[qwerty49]

Depending on one’s point of view, baseball fortunately (or unfortunately) provides a large enough sample size to make almost any data analysis relevant.

Being more dinosaur than wonk, I just miss the old eyeball test(s) that perhaps showed more about a player than his raw stats or headlines.

Jim Davenport was known for his defense, and only a lifetime .258 hitter, but he was super clutch at the plate when it counted.

Roger Maris was known for his HR seasons, but he had one of the best outfield arms in the AL and the play he made in the 7th game of the ‘62 Series to cut off Mays’ double down the RF line and keep Matty Alou from scoring will never show up in the record books.

In recent years there are probably stats to show how good Brandon Crawford was going into the hole to get a tough out falling to his right, but where are the stats showing the role his cannon of an arm played in getting that out?

No disrespect, but if stats told the whole story MLB could just stream AI-simulated pennant races and sell beer and peanuts through Uber Eats. At least we wouldn’t have to deal with game-day parking hassles.

So is there a reason why Wisely seems better suited to SS than 2B?

[qwerty49]

Depending on one’s point of view, baseball fortunately (or unfortunately) provides a large enough sample size to make almost any data analysis relevant.

Being more dinosaur than wonk, I just miss the old eyeball test(s) that perhaps showed more about a player than his raw stats or headlines.

Jim Davenport was known for his defense, and only a lifetime .258 hitter, but he was super clutch at the plate when it counted.

Roger Maris was known for his HR seasons, but he had one of the best outfield arms in the AL and the play he made in the 7th game of the ‘62 Series to cut off Mays’ double down the RF line and keep Matty Alou from scoring will never show up in the record books.

In recent years there are probably stats to show how good Brandon Crawford was going into the hole to get a tough out falling to his right, but where are the stats showing the role his cannon of an arm played in getting that out?

No disrespect, but if stats told the whole story MLB could just stream AI-simulated pennant races and sell beer and peanuts through Uber Eats. At least we wouldn’t have to deal with game-day parking hassles.

So is there a reason why Wisely seems better suited to SS than 2B?

[Mick]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

He made four late-game errors in three games at shortstop. That's...hard to do.

[Mick]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

He made four late-game errors in three games at shortstop. That's...hard to do.

[Giants]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

He made four late-game errors in three games at shortstop. That's...hard to do.

In retrospect, perhaps the Giants put Luciano in a situation defensively that he wasn’t prepared to handle.  If so, that is on team management.  
 
Of course, it could be that Luciano will never be a solid defensive major league SS.  However, I think passing judgment based on a handful of games is rather premature.  Heck, in this era, very few players are fully formed big leaguers when they begin their major league career.

[Giants]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

He made four late-game errors in three games at shortstop. That's...hard to do.

In retrospect, perhaps the Giants put Luciano in a situation defensively that he wasn’t prepared to handle.  If so, that is on team management.  
 
Of course, it could be that Luciano will never be a solid defensive major league SS.  However, I think passing judgment based on a handful of games is rather premature.  Heck, in this era, very few players are fully formed big leaguers when they begin their major league career.

[lex24]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

He made four late-game errors in three games at shortstop. That's...hard to do.

In retrospect, perhaps the Giants put Luciano in a situation defensively that he wasn’t prepared to handle.  If so, that is on team management.  
 
Of course, it could be that Luciano will never be a solid defensive major league SS.  However, I think passing judgment based on a handful of games is rather premature.  Heck, in this era, very few players are fully formed big leaguers when they begin their major league career.

The wisdom on Luciano in baseball circles has been he’s not a quality defensive shortstop and certainly not major league level defensively. The Giants are on an island on this. They have stubbornly refused to accept that. And now he’s playing second base. His slug pct in a hitters league is .330. 

Luciano’s ticket to the major leagues is his power. They’ve screwed him up, in my opinion, by insisting he is a cromulent MIF. 

Frankly, to me, he looks like a baseball version of Roberto Duran. “Hands of stone.” I’m hoping when this year is over, they either move him to the outfield or a corner infield position. Preferably first base.  Tell him to focus on finding his power stroke.

Course, Zaidi LOVES his metrics. And the Giants continue to pretend that they are smartest team on the planet. They’re not.

---

Depending on one’s point of view, baseball fortunately (or unfortunately) provides a large enough sample size to make almost any data analysis relevant.

Being more dinosaur than wonk, I just miss the old eyeball test(s) that perhaps showed more about a player than his raw stats or headlines.

Jim Davenport was known for his defense, and only a lifetime .258 hitter, but he was super clutch at the plate when it counted.

Roger Maris was known for his HR seasons, but he had one of the best outfield arms in the AL and the play he made in the 7th game of the ‘62 Series to cut off Mays’ double down the RF line and keep Matty Alou from scoring will never show up in the record books.

In recent years there are probably stats to show how good Brandon Crawford was going into the hole to get a tough out falling to his right, but where are the stats showing the role his cannon of an arm played in getting that out?

No disrespect, but if stats told the whole story MLB could just stream AI-simulated pennant races and sell beer and peanuts through Uber Eats. At least we wouldn’t have to deal with game-day parking hassles.

So is there a reason why Wisely seems better suited to SS than 2B?

Love this.  

As for Wisely,  he’s probably more suited to play second base. But the Giants don’t have a decent shortstop so he’s getting the opportunity and he’s making the most of it. Good for him

[lex24]

Luciano is 22.  

When Heliot Ramos was 22, here are his major league stats:

ABs: 20
Hits: 2
OPS: .382

Today, in his age 24 season, Ramos is an All-Star

While I am not suggesting Luciano will be an all-star in his age 24 season, I would suggest that it is far too early to give up on him.  At some point, the light will come on just as it did for Ramos.  Luciano has too much talent not to succeed.

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

He made four late-game errors in three games at shortstop. That's...hard to do.

In retrospect, perhaps the Giants put Luciano in a situation defensively that he wasn’t prepared to handle.  If so, that is on team management.  
 
Of course, it could be that Luciano will never be a solid defensive major league SS.  However, I think passing judgment based on a handful of games is rather premature.  Heck, in this era, very few players are fully formed big leaguers when they begin their major league career.

The wisdom on Luciano in baseball circles has been he’s not a quality defensive shortstop and certainly not major league level defensively. The Giants are on an island on this. They have stubbornly refused to accept that. And now he’s playing second base. His slug pct in a hitters league is .330. 

Luciano’s ticket to the major leagues is his power. They’ve screwed him up, in my opinion, by insisting he is a cromulent MIF. 

Frankly, to me, he looks like a baseball version of Roberto Duran. “Hands of stone.” I’m hoping when this year is over, they either move him to the outfield or a corner infield position. Preferably first base.  Tell him to focus on finding his power stroke.

Course, Zaidi LOVES his metrics. And the Giants continue to pretend that they are smartest team on the planet. They’re not.

---

Depending on one’s point of view, baseball fortunately (or unfortunately) provides a large enough sample size to make almost any data analysis relevant.

Being more dinosaur than wonk, I just miss the old eyeball test(s) that perhaps showed more about a player than his raw stats or headlines.

Jim Davenport was known for his defense, and only a lifetime .258 hitter, but he was super clutch at the plate when it counted.

Roger Maris was known for his HR seasons, but he had one of the best outfield arms in the AL and the play he made in the 7th game of the ‘62 Series to cut off Mays’ double down the RF line and keep Matty Alou from scoring will never show up in the record books.

In recent years there are probably stats to show how good Brandon Crawford was going into the hole to get a tough out falling to his right, but where are the stats showing the role his cannon of an arm played in getting that out?

No disrespect, but if stats told the whole story MLB could just stream AI-simulated pennant races and sell beer and peanuts through Uber Eats. At least we wouldn’t have to deal with game-day parking hassles.

So is there a reason why Wisely seems better suited to SS than 2B?

Love this.  

As for Wisely,  he’s probably more suited to play second base. But the Giants don’t have a decent shortstop so he’s getting the opportunity and he’s making the most of it. Good for him

[Mick]

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

He made four late-game errors in three games at shortstop. That's...hard to do.

In retrospect, perhaps the Giants put Luciano in a situation defensively that he wasn’t prepared to handle.  If so, that is on team management.  
 
Of course, it could be that Luciano will never be a solid defensive major league SS.  However, I think passing judgment based on a handful of games is rather premature.  Heck, in this era, very few players are fully formed big leaguers when they begin their major league career.

The wisdom on Luciano in baseball circles has been he’s not a quality defensive shortstop and certainly not major league level defensively. The Giants are on an island on this.  They have stubbornly refused to accept that. And now he’s playing second base. His slug pct in a hitters league is .330. 

Luciano’s ticket to the major leagues is his power. They’ve screwed him up, in my opinion, by insisting he is a cromulent MIF. 

Frankly, to me, he looks like a baseball version of Roberto Duran. “Hands of stone.” I’m hoping when this year is over, they either move him to the outfield or a corner infield position. Preferably first base.  Tell him to focus on finding his power stroke.

Course, Zaidi LOVES his metrics. And the Giants continue to pretend that they are  smartest team on the planet. They’re not.

---

Depending on one’s point of view, baseball fortunately (or unfortunately) provides a large enough sample size to make almost any data analysis relevant.

Being more dinosaur than wonk, I just miss the old eyeball test(s) that perhaps showed more about a player than his raw stats or headlines.

Jim Davenport was known for his defense, and only a lifetime .258 hitter, but he was super clutch at the plate when it counted.

Roger Maris was known for his HR seasons, but he had one of the best outfield arms in the AL and the play he made in the 7th game of the ‘62 Series to cut off Mays’ double down the RF line and keep Matty Alou from scoring will never show up in the record books.

In recent years there are probably stats to show how good Brandon Crawford was going into the hole to get a tough out falling to his right, but where are the stats showing the role his cannon of an arm played in getting that out?

No disrespect, but if stats told the whole story MLB could just stream AI-simulated pennant races and sell beer and peanuts through Uber Eats. At least we wouldn’t have to deal with game-day parking hassles.

So is there a reason why Wisely seems better suited to SS than 2B?

Love this.  

As for Wisely,  he’s probably more suited to play second base. But the Giants don’t have a decent shortstop so he’s getting the opportunity and he’s making the most of it. Good for him

Wisely's career MLB fielding numbers are slightly better at SS than 2B. Slightly. He's had 21 starts at SS, 42 starts at 2B. He's made 4 errors in 181 chances at 2B, 1 error in 102 chances at SS. He's made 27 DPs at 2B at 16 at SS. His range factor at 2B (4.45) is .21 better than league average and his range factor at SS (4.61) is .73 better than league average. So numerically...in a small sample size...he's actually better at SS.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...br01.shtml

And not that it matters, but he's batting considerably better when he plays SS vs. 2B, and pretty terrible as a CF. Here's his MLB career splits at each:

SS: .301/.337/.482/.819
2B: .216/.267/.331/.598
CF: .125/.177/.156/.333

And while we're on that topic, Wisely's much better at leadoff (.286/.327/.449/.776) than the other positions. His second best is dead last, batting ninth.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...b#all_defp

[Mick]

That said, Luciano is not fielding well at either 2B or SS...his collective fielding percentage is 93.8%, 10 errors in 161 chances. He does have a discerning batting eye, 43 walks in 55 games, .365 OBP. And he hit major league pitching well in his brief cup of coffee up here. But I'm thinking 1B or corner outfield are his future, unless he really accelerates in the middle infield.

The Giants still see Luciano as the team’s future SS.

Per Zaidi, “…we’re not giving up on the shortstop role for him.  From what we track, his defensive metrics at shortstop have been pretty solid in the minor leagues over the last couple of years.  Over a big sample, he has done a nice job.  Look, it’s always going to be different when you come up here with the pressure and expectations and being able to do it on a night in, night out basis on a big stage.  That’ll be a hurdle for him, but we’re going to continue to get him reps there.”  

We shall see……..

He made four late-game errors in three games at shortstop. That's...hard to do.

In retrospect, perhaps the Giants put Luciano in a situation defensively that he wasn’t prepared to handle.  If so, that is on team management.  
 
Of course, it could be that Luciano will never be a solid defensive major league SS.  However, I think passing judgment based on a handful of games is rather premature.  Heck, in this era, very few players are fully formed big leaguers when they begin their major league career.

The wisdom on Luciano in baseball circles has been he’s not a quality defensive shortstop and certainly not major league level defensively. The Giants are on an island on this.  They have stubbornly refused to accept that. And now he’s playing second base. His slug pct in a hitters league is .330. 

Luciano’s ticket to the major leagues is his power. They’ve screwed him up, in my opinion, by insisting he is a cromulent MIF. 

Frankly, to me, he looks like a baseball version of Roberto Duran. “Hands of stone.” I’m hoping when this year is over, they either move him to the outfield or a corner infield position. Preferably first base.  Tell him to focus on finding his power stroke.

Course, Zaidi LOVES his metrics. And the Giants continue to pretend that they are  smartest team on the planet. They’re not.

---

Depending on one’s point of view, baseball fortunately (or unfortunately) provides a large enough sample size to make almost any data analysis relevant.

Being more dinosaur than wonk, I just miss the old eyeball test(s) that perhaps showed more about a player than his raw stats or headlines.

Jim Davenport was known for his defense, and only a lifetime .258 hitter, but he was super clutch at the plate when it counted.

Roger Maris was known for his HR seasons, but he had one of the best outfield arms in the AL and the play he made in the 7th game of the ‘62 Series to cut off Mays’ double down the RF line and keep Matty Alou from scoring will never show up in the record books.

In recent years there are probably stats to show how good Brandon Crawford was going into the hole to get a tough out falling to his right, but where are the stats showing the role his cannon of an arm played in getting that out?

No disrespect, but if stats told the whole story MLB could just stream AI-simulated pennant races and sell beer and peanuts through Uber Eats. At least we wouldn’t have to deal with game-day parking hassles.

So is there a reason why Wisely seems better suited to SS than 2B?

Love this.  

As for Wisely,  he’s probably more suited to play second base. But the Giants don’t have a decent shortstop so he’s getting the opportunity and he’s making the most of it. Good for him

Wisely's career MLB fielding numbers are slightly better at SS than 2B. Slightly. He's had 21 starts at SS, 42 starts at 2B. He's made 4 errors in 181 chances at 2B, 1 error in 102 chances at SS. He's made 27 DPs at 2B at 16 at SS. His range factor at 2B (4.45) is .21 better than league average and his range factor at SS (4.61) is .73 better than league average. So numerically...in a small sample size...he's actually better at SS.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...br01.shtml

And not that it matters, but he's batting considerably better when he plays SS vs. 2B, and pretty terrible as a CF. Here's his MLB career splits at each:

SS: .301/.337/.482/.819
2B: .216/.267/.331/.598
CF: .125/.177/.156/.333

And while we're on that topic, Wisely's much better at leadoff (.286/.327/.449/.776) than the other positions. His second best is dead last, batting ninth.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/playe...b#all_defp

[qwerty49]

5 teams under .500 currently vying for the final NL wildcard.

Question for you historians:  What's the furthest any sub-.500 team has gotten in the playoffs?  Anybody make it to the LCS (or beyond)?

[qwerty49]

5 teams under .500 currently vying for the final NL wildcard.

Question for you historians:  What's the furthest any sub-.500 team has gotten in the playoffs?  Anybody make it to the LCS (or beyond)?

[Mick]

To your question, the 1973 Mets were 58-70 on May 22, they finished 24-9 to go 82-79, beat the Reds in the NLCS, then lost the WS to the A's. Like the Giants, they had terrific pitching; Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, George Stone (12-3, 2.80 ERA) and closer Tug McGraw. Mets had a 3.26 ERA, 3rd best in the NL. And like the 2024 Giants, they were a terrible hitting team, between 8th and 12th (in a 12 team league) in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS. In fact, the only category they led the league was Caught Stealing...like the Giants. They were 11th in stolen bases.

The Astros were 15-30 on May 24, 2005. They finished 89-73, won the NLDS over the Braves, the NLCS over the Cardinals and lost the WS to the White Sox.

Closer to home, the 2008 Dodgers were 46-49 at the ASB, finished 84-78 (finished first in the NL West, beat the Cubs in the NLDS, lost the NLCS to the Phillies)

Separately, not sub-.500, but on August 11, 1951, the Giants were 13 games behind the Dodgers, then won 16 in a row -- every single win was by three or fewer runs -- after which they were five back. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams...ores.shtml

At the end of the season, they won 12 of 13 to tie the Dodgers, then took 2 of 3 (3-1, 0-10, 5-4), culminating in the Shot Heard Round the World.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes...0030.shtml

---

Brett Wisely is, for me, the long term Giants answer at shortstop. I can see why they maybe didn't think so out of the gate. He's short (only 5'9"), and I think they think he would be a better 2B, and maybe he couldn't hit too well. Buuuuuut...he is hitting .285/.320/.431/.751 and he is fielding like crazy...he has one error at shortstop in 29 games, and his range factor is almost a full chance per game better than MLB average at 4.62....Not Ozzie Smith level, but about the same as Cal Ripken, who earned a few gold gloves...and I should mention, shortstops had better range back then.

Fun game today, 3-2 walk-off win. Blake Snell is money. Just watched him throw seven innings, one hit, no walks. He was scary good...the Twins' batters were missing his pitches by a foot. Ty Rogers had a hold, Doval had his fourth blown save. Gave up two runs, two hits, a walk and got one guy out. Walker came in, shut them down. Move Walker to closer (or Rodriguez), trade Doval.

Best part was Yaz, first pitch, bottom of the ninth, hit a ball into Triples Alley, he runs to third, the SS throws the ball into the dugout and BOOM...he was awarded home. Try to see it if you can.

https://www.mlb.com/news/blake-snell-fli...icle-share

That the Giants' ninth walk-off win, tied for MLB lead.

[Mick]

To your question, the 1973 Mets were 58-70 on May 22, they finished 24-9 to go 82-79, beat the Reds in the NLCS, then lost the WS to the A's. Like the Giants, they had terrific pitching; Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, George Stone (12-3, 2.80 ERA) and closer Tug McGraw. Mets had a 3.26 ERA, 3rd best in the NL. And like the 2024 Giants, they were a terrible hitting team, between 8th and 12th (in a 12 team league) in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS. In fact, the only category they led the league was Caught Stealing...like the Giants. They were 11th in stolen bases.

The Astros were 15-30 on May 24, 2005. They finished 89-73, won the NLDS over the Braves, the NLCS over the Cardinals and lost the WS to the White Sox.

Closer to home, the 2008 Dodgers were 46-49 at the ASB, finished 84-78 (finished first in the NL West, beat the Cubs in the NLDS, lost the NLCS to the Phillies)

Separately, not sub-.500, but on August 11, 1951, the Giants were 13 games behind the Dodgers, then won 16 in a row -- every single win was by three or fewer runs -- after which they were five back. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams...ores.shtml

At the end of the season, they won 12 of 13 to tie the Dodgers, then took 2 of 3 (3-1, 0-10, 5-4), culminating in the Shot Heard Round the World.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes...0030.shtml

---

Brett Wisely is, for me, the long term Giants answer at shortstop. I can see why they maybe didn't think so out of the gate. He's short (only 5'9"), and I think they think he would be a better 2B, and maybe he couldn't hit too well. Buuuuuut...he is hitting .285/.320/.431/.751 and he is fielding like crazy...he has one error at shortstop in 29 games, and his range factor is almost a full chance per game better than MLB average at 4.62....Not Ozzie Smith level, but about the same as Cal Ripken, who earned a few gold gloves...and I should mention, shortstops had better range back then.

Fun game today, 3-2 walk-off win. Blake Snell is money. Just watched him throw seven innings, one hit, no walks. He was scary good...the Twins' batters were missing his pitches by a foot. Ty Rogers had a hold, Doval had his fourth blown save. Gave up two runs, two hits, a walk and got one guy out. Walker came in, shut them down. Move Walker to closer (or Rodriguez), trade Doval.

Best part was Yaz, first pitch, bottom of the ninth, hit a ball into Triples Alley, he runs to third, the SS throws the ball into the dugout and BOOM...he was awarded home. Try to see it if you can.

https://www.mlb.com/news/blake-snell-fli...icle-share

That the Giants' ninth walk-off win, tied for MLB lead.

[BobK]

The Giants first round draft choice #13 is James Tibbs He’s a RFer from Florida State. This past season he hit 28 HRs and batted 342.

[BobK]

The Giants first round draft choice #13 is James Tibbs He’s a RFer from Florida State. This past season he hit 28 HRs and batted 342.

[lex24]

The Giants first round draft choice #13 is James Tibbs  He’s a RFer from Florida State.  This past season he hit 28 HRs and batted 342.

James “they call me Mr.” Tibbs.

The great Sydney Poitier.

[lex24]

The Giants first round draft choice #13 is James Tibbs  He’s a RFer from Florida State.  This past season he hit 28 HRs and batted 342.

James “they call me Mr.” Tibbs.

The great Sydney Poitier.

[qwerty49]

To your question, the 1973 Mets were 58-70 on May 22, they finished 24-9 to go 82-79, beat the Reds in the NLCS, then lost the WS to the A's. Like the Giants, they had terrific pitching; Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, George Stone (12-3, 2.80 ERA) and closer Tug McGraw. Mets had a 3.26 ERA, 3rd best in the NL. And like the 2024 Giants, they were a terrible hitting team, between 8th and 12th (in a 12 team league) in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS. In fact, the only category they led the league was Caught Stealing...like the Giants. They were 11th in stolen bases.

The Astros were 15-30 on May 24, 2005. They finished 89-73, won the NLDS over the Braves, the NLCS over the Cardinals and lost the WS to the White Sox.

Closer to home, the 2008 Dodgers were 46-49 at the ASB, finished 84-78 (finished first in the NL West, beat the Cubs in the NLDS, lost the NLCS to the Phillies)

Separately, not sub-.500, but on August 11, 1951, the Giants were 13 games behind the Dodgers, then won 16 in a row -- every single win was by three or fewer runs -- after which they were five back. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams...ores.shtml

At the end of the season, they won 12 of 13 to tie the Dodgers, then took 2 of 3 (3-1, 0-10, 5-4), culminating in the Shot Heard Round the World.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes...0030.shtml

---

Appreciate the input, Mick.  Sorry I wasn't more precise.  I really meant to ask if any team had finished the regular season under .500 and still gone on to the playoffs.....

[qwerty49]

To your question, the 1973 Mets were 58-70 on May 22, they finished 24-9 to go 82-79, beat the Reds in the NLCS, then lost the WS to the A's. Like the Giants, they had terrific pitching; Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, George Stone (12-3, 2.80 ERA) and closer Tug McGraw. Mets had a 3.26 ERA, 3rd best in the NL. And like the 2024 Giants, they were a terrible hitting team, between 8th and 12th (in a 12 team league) in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS. In fact, the only category they led the league was Caught Stealing...like the Giants. They were 11th in stolen bases.

The Astros were 15-30 on May 24, 2005. They finished 89-73, won the NLDS over the Braves, the NLCS over the Cardinals and lost the WS to the White Sox.

Closer to home, the 2008 Dodgers were 46-49 at the ASB, finished 84-78 (finished first in the NL West, beat the Cubs in the NLDS, lost the NLCS to the Phillies)

Separately, not sub-.500, but on August 11, 1951, the Giants were 13 games behind the Dodgers, then won 16 in a row -- every single win was by three or fewer runs -- after which they were five back. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams...ores.shtml

At the end of the season, they won 12 of 13 to tie the Dodgers, then took 2 of 3 (3-1, 0-10, 5-4), culminating in the Shot Heard Round the World.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes...0030.shtml

---

Appreciate the input, Mick.  Sorry I wasn't more precise.  I really meant to ask if any team had finished the regular season under .500 and still gone on to the playoffs.....