[fullmetal]

Mike Florio from NBC Sports Pro Football Talk says that Martin bears no blame: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...ght-thing/

The commenters suggest that Incognito could have perhaps behaved as Aaron Hernandez is alleged to have behaved if Martin had confronted Incognito about the situation.

[fullmetal]

Mike Florio from NBC Sports Pro Football Talk says that Martin bears no blame: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...ght-thing/

The commenters suggest that Incognito could have perhaps behaved as Aaron Hernandez is alleged to have behaved if Martin had confronted Incognito about the situation.

[oman]

IF he was harassed?  It's pretty damn clear he was harassed.  And the rest of that sentence does a great job of blaming the victim -- while your entire email says nothing about the possibility that this was entirely Incogito's fault (which admittedly is just a possibility at this point, but it's a possibility that seems increasingly likely the more information we get).

I wasn't there. 

And my response was primarily directed at the idea that a degree from an Ivy or Stanford makes it harder on these guys or somehow makes them more likely to be a victim. 

[oman]

IF he was harassed?  It's pretty damn clear he was harassed.  And the rest of that sentence does a great job of blaming the victim -- while your entire email says nothing about the possibility that this was entirely Incogito's fault (which admittedly is just a possibility at this point, but it's a possibility that seems increasingly likely the more information we get).

I wasn't there. 

And my response was primarily directed at the idea that a degree from an Ivy or Stanford makes it harder on these guys or somehow makes them more likely to be a victim. 

[Roberton3]

[quote author=Roberton3 link=topic=8717.msg73584#msg73584 date=1383686363]
IF he was harassed?  It's pretty damn clear he was harassed. 

I wasn't there. 
[/quote]

Have you seen the voicemail transcript?  Even if there were no other evidence, it's difficult to interpret that in any way other than as harassment.  Put it together with the other evidence that has already come out, and it's pretty ironclad.

[Roberton3]

[quote author=Roberton3 link=topic=8717.msg73584#msg73584 date=1383686363]
IF he was harassed?  It's pretty damn clear he was harassed. 

I wasn't there. 
[/quote]

Have you seen the voicemail transcript?  Even if there were no other evidence, it's difficult to interpret that in any way other than as harassment.  Put it together with the other evidence that has already come out, and it's pretty ironclad.

[oman]

Have you seen the voicemail transcript?

Nope. I haven't seen the depositions or the sworn statements or any communication Martin may have made to any other players either.

Does he badmouth Stanford in the transcripts?

[oman]

Have you seen the voicemail transcript?

Nope. I haven't seen the depositions or the sworn statements or any communication Martin may have made to any other players either.

Does he badmouth Stanford in the transcripts?

[Roberton3]

[quote author=Roberton3 link=topic=8717.msg73590#msg73590 date=1383687084]
Have you seen the voicemail transcript?

Nope. I haven't seen the depositions or the sworn statements or any communication Martin may have made to any other players either.
[/quote]

Here's what's been reported in multiple sources as the voicemail transcript: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of s---. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s--- in your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F--- you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Unless Incognito was obviously kidding (and there's been no indication at all of that), that's harassment.  End of story.

Does he badmouth Stanford in the transcripts?

No.  You may well be right that Martin's Stanford background had nothing to do with this.  I'm not disagreeing at all with that part of what you said.  It's the rest of your post that I found ignorant and offensive.

[Roberton3]

[quote author=Roberton3 link=topic=8717.msg73590#msg73590 date=1383687084]
Have you seen the voicemail transcript?

Nope. I haven't seen the depositions or the sworn statements or any communication Martin may have made to any other players either.
[/quote]

Here's what's been reported in multiple sources as the voicemail transcript: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of s---. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s--- in your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F--- you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Unless Incognito was obviously kidding (and there's been no indication at all of that), that's harassment.  End of story.

Does he badmouth Stanford in the transcripts?

No.  You may well be right that Martin's Stanford background had nothing to do with this.  I'm not disagreeing at all with that part of what you said.  It's the rest of your post that I found ignorant and offensive.

[fullmetal]

oman's just being specific and legally objective.

[fullmetal]

oman's just being specific and legally objective.

[oman]

Here's what's been reported in multiple sources as the voicemail transcript: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of s---. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s--- in your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F--- you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Unless Incognito was obviously kidding (and there's been no indication at all of that), that's harassment.  End of story.

If that's all the evidence you have, sure.  If they guy has already been shown the door, there is not much point in arguing.

However, when you are dealing with two persons of equal stature (two players), Martin's responses, or prior conduct, are absolutely relevant.  So are all the other factors related to the situation.

No.  You may well be right that Martin's Stanford background had nothing to do with this.  I'm not disagreeing at all with that part of what you said.  It's the rest of your post that I found ignorant and offensive.

Okay, "end of story" guy.  I'm the one making ignorant posts.

[oman]

Here's what's been reported in multiple sources as the voicemail transcript: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of s---. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s--- in your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F--- you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Unless Incognito was obviously kidding (and there's been no indication at all of that), that's harassment.  End of story.

If that's all the evidence you have, sure.  If they guy has already been shown the door, there is not much point in arguing.

However, when you are dealing with two persons of equal stature (two players), Martin's responses, or prior conduct, are absolutely relevant.  So are all the other factors related to the situation.

No.  You may well be right that Martin's Stanford background had nothing to do with this.  I'm not disagreeing at all with that part of what you said.  It's the rest of your post that I found ignorant and offensive.

Okay, "end of story" guy.  I'm the one making ignorant posts.

[Roberton3]

[quote author=Roberton3 link=topic=8717.msg73601#msg73601 date=1383690501]
Here's what's been reported in multiple sources as the voicemail transcript: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of s---. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s--- in your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F--- you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Unless Incognito was obviously kidding (and there's been no indication at all of that), that's harassment.  End of story.

If that's all the evidence you have, sure.  If they guy has already been shown the door, there is not much point in arguing.

However, when you are dealing with two persons of equal stature (two players), Martin's responses, or prior conduct, are absolutely relevant.  So are all the other factors related to the situation.
[/quote]

Of course the rest of the situation is relevant.  But I can't conceive of any possible hypothetical scenario in which Incognito's voicemail isn't harassment (again, unless he was obviously kidding, which the rest of the case clearly indicates he wasn't).  Can you?

[Roberton3]

[quote author=Roberton3 link=topic=8717.msg73601#msg73601 date=1383690501]
Here's what's been reported in multiple sources as the voicemail transcript: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of s---. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s--- in your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F--- you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Unless Incognito was obviously kidding (and there's been no indication at all of that), that's harassment.  End of story.

If that's all the evidence you have, sure.  If they guy has already been shown the door, there is not much point in arguing.

However, when you are dealing with two persons of equal stature (two players), Martin's responses, or prior conduct, are absolutely relevant.  So are all the other factors related to the situation.
[/quote]

Of course the rest of the situation is relevant.  But I can't conceive of any possible hypothetical scenario in which Incognito's voicemail isn't harassment (again, unless he was obviously kidding, which the rest of the case clearly indicates he wasn't).  Can you?

[Trevmiesterj]

It seems to me that Incognito consistently referring to Martin as "Big Weirdo" would point to Jonathan's intelligence, interest in Classical Studies and soft-spoken nature as a reason for such a negative nickname.

I haven't heard any other reason to suggest Martin would be tagged with such a label other than he didn't fit the mold of a common NFL player.

[Trevmiesterj]

It seems to me that Incognito consistently referring to Martin as "Big Weirdo" would point to Jonathan's intelligence, interest in Classical Studies and soft-spoken nature as a reason for such a negative nickname.

I haven't heard any other reason to suggest Martin would be tagged with such a label other than he didn't fit the mold of a common NFL player.

[Leftcoast]

Folks, the Dolphins took one look at the evidence and kicked Incognito off the team a day after they said they didn't know what happened to Martin.  That speaks volumes.

If we want to look at past history, take a look at Incognito's.  As far as I can tell, Incognito has been involuntarily evicted from every team he has joined since high school - Nebraska, Oregon, the Rams, the Bills and now, evidently, the Dolphins.  He's swung at coaches, been fined and/or suspended multiple times and been voted the NFL's dirtiest player.  He is well known for abusing rookies at each stop along the way.

And yet, The Dolphins turned a blind eye and brought him on board. 

Think about that.  What kind of message does that send a young rookie about institutional support once normal hazing turns violent and abusive?  Is management going to support the talented veteran or the unproven rookie?

Objectivity is admirable but Occam's razor suggests there are simpler ways of assessing blame than looking in the abused victims direction.

[Leftcoast]

Folks, the Dolphins took one look at the evidence and kicked Incognito off the team a day after they said they didn't know what happened to Martin.  That speaks volumes.

If we want to look at past history, take a look at Incognito's.  As far as I can tell, Incognito has been involuntarily evicted from every team he has joined since high school - Nebraska, Oregon, the Rams, the Bills and now, evidently, the Dolphins.  He's swung at coaches, been fined and/or suspended multiple times and been voted the NFL's dirtiest player.  He is well known for abusing rookies at each stop along the way.

And yet, The Dolphins turned a blind eye and brought him on board. 

Think about that.  What kind of message does that send a young rookie about institutional support once normal hazing turns violent and abusive?  Is management going to support the talented veteran or the unproven rookie?

Objectivity is admirable but Occam's razor suggests there are simpler ways of assessing blame than looking in the abused victims direction.

[stupac2]

And yet, The Dolphins turned a blind eye and brought him on board. 

Not only that, but he was apparently on the player leadership council. Because those are clearly qualities you want all your players to have.

[stupac2]

And yet, The Dolphins turned a blind eye and brought him on board. 

Not only that, but he was apparently on the player leadership council. Because those are clearly qualities you want all your players to have.

[oman]

Of course the rest of the situation is relevant.  But I can't conceive of any possible hypothetical scenario in which Incognito's voicemail isn't harassment (again, unless he was obviously kidding, which the rest of the case clearly indicates he wasn't).  Can you?

This is already dragged out too long so I will just say that you make some good points but I want to clarify a couple of things.

1) I'm a bit taken aback by your comment that I am blaming the victim.  This isn't akin to me blaming a rape victim.  This is a harassment situation where the conduct of the recipient is going to be very relevant. 

2) Yeah, I could imagine a case where these guys are talking very ugly trash to each other and leaving idiotic messages on each others phones. 

[oman]

Of course the rest of the situation is relevant.  But I can't conceive of any possible hypothetical scenario in which Incognito's voicemail isn't harassment (again, unless he was obviously kidding, which the rest of the case clearly indicates he wasn't).  Can you?

This is already dragged out too long so I will just say that you make some good points but I want to clarify a couple of things.

1) I'm a bit taken aback by your comment that I am blaming the victim.  This isn't akin to me blaming a rape victim.  This is a harassment situation where the conduct of the recipient is going to be very relevant. 

2) Yeah, I could imagine a case where these guys are talking very ugly trash to each other and leaving idiotic messages on each others phones. 

[Mick]

I hope he ends up on a NFL team welcoming of nerds.  I'm thinking of one in the Midwest that wears white and blue where there are at least 7 players on the active rosters that read books (I'm giving the Boston College guys the benefit of the doubt here).

They went to a Jesuit school.  Pretty sure they've read a few books.  Hope they didn't have to plow through Reinhold Niebuhr (ugh)

[Mick]

I hope he ends up on a NFL team welcoming of nerds.  I'm thinking of one in the Midwest that wears white and blue where there are at least 7 players on the active rosters that read books (I'm giving the Boston College guys the benefit of the doubt here).

They went to a Jesuit school.  Pretty sure they've read a few books.  Hope they didn't have to plow through Reinhold Niebuhr (ugh)

[Mick]

I hope he ends up on a NFL team welcoming of nerds.  I'm thinking of one in the Midwest that wears white and blue where there are at least 7 players on the active rosters that read books (I'm giving the Boston College guys the benefit of the doubt here).

...he ends up on the Niners.

[Mick]

I hope he ends up on a NFL team welcoming of nerds.  I'm thinking of one in the Midwest that wears white and blue where there are at least 7 players on the active rosters that read books (I'm giving the Boston College guys the benefit of the doubt here).

...he ends up on the Niners.

[Farm93]

The Colts actually need the O-line help.  One could imagine that the Dolphins will need to get him out of Miami with as little drama as possible, and Indy could be that low drama option since I would guess Martin would be happy to move to that team's Luck oriented culture.

[Farm93]

The Colts actually need the O-line help.  One could imagine that the Dolphins will need to get him out of Miami with as little drama as possible, and Indy could be that low drama option since I would guess Martin would be happy to move to that team's Luck oriented culture.

[fullmetal]

Stanford East is calling.  Would love to see T-Rich earn his money behind Moose.  But what are the contract implications here?  What needs to happen for Martin to be released, and how does his rookie contract work right now?

[fullmetal]

Stanford East is calling.  Would love to see T-Rich earn his money behind Moose.  But what are the contract implications here?  What needs to happen for Martin to be released, and how does his rookie contract work right now?

[SUBuddha]

The plot thickens...coaches may have been the root of this. You be the judge.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami...8986.story

[SUBuddha]

The plot thickens...coaches may have been the root of this. You be the judge.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami...8986.story

[dabigv13]

2) Yeah, I could imagine a case where these guys are talking very ugly trash to each other and leaving idiotic messages on each others phones.

When I was in college, the stuff that me and my friends used to say to each other during games of Halo makes that voicemail look downright tame, minus the racist slant. Mothers and sexual organs figured prominently.

[dabigv13]

2) Yeah, I could imagine a case where these guys are talking very ugly trash to each other and leaving idiotic messages on each others phones.

When I was in college, the stuff that me and my friends used to say to each other during games of Halo makes that voicemail look downright tame, minus the racist slant. Mothers and sexual organs figured prominently.

[fullmetal]

Games of Halo (where things don't matter) don't compare to a job in the NFL (where everything matters)...just saying.

Also, a Florida law could make Richie Incognito pay triple teammate's salary in damages if legal action were to succeed.  Whoa...!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/993226...-incognito

[fullmetal]

Games of Halo (where things don't matter) don't compare to a job in the NFL (where everything matters)...just saying.

Also, a Florida law could make Richie Incognito pay triple teammate's salary in damages if legal action were to succeed.  Whoa...!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/993226...-incognito

[Cardinal96]

This story has me really riled up.  The more I read about it, the more upset I get.

If I hear one more time someone criticizing Martin for backing down or walking away, I think I will blow a gasket.  Where to begin?  Incognito does not appear to be a sane, rational person.  If you come after him, it is very hard to predict how he will react.  I don't think he will be cowed.  I think it would actually make him more aggressive.  He really doesn't get it.  His only comment after all of this media frenzy is that he is waiting for the storm to pass.

More importantly, it wasn't just Incognito.  It was the entire team culture it appears like.  This team appointed Incognito to the six-member leadership council.  Other offensive linemen were in on the prank at the lunchroom table.  What is far worse is the report that alleges that the coaches had asked Incognito to toughen Martin up.  If that is true (and I have a strong hunch it is), where was Martin to turn here?  The entire organization appears corrupt.

And, by the way, I think the owner Stephen Ross suspects similar.  There is a reason he asked the NFL to get involved.  His alarm bells probably started ringing when he first heard of these reports and figured an internally prepared report wouldn't be objective as management has their own interests here.

I am fully 100% in Martin's camp here.  I hope he gets to play football again.  If these reports about Incognito being pushed into toughening up Martin by the coaches are true, I hope Martin sues the Dolphins.  And I want to see Ross clean house at the Dolphins organization.  Don't get me started on how they have had to backtrack their public statements over the weekend.  I don't see any way the coach survives this and I would think the GM's job is in jeopardy.

[Cardinal96]

This story has me really riled up.  The more I read about it, the more upset I get.

If I hear one more time someone criticizing Martin for backing down or walking away, I think I will blow a gasket.  Where to begin?  Incognito does not appear to be a sane, rational person.  If you come after him, it is very hard to predict how he will react.  I don't think he will be cowed.  I think it would actually make him more aggressive.  He really doesn't get it.  His only comment after all of this media frenzy is that he is waiting for the storm to pass.

More importantly, it wasn't just Incognito.  It was the entire team culture it appears like.  This team appointed Incognito to the six-member leadership council.  Other offensive linemen were in on the prank at the lunchroom table.  What is far worse is the report that alleges that the coaches had asked Incognito to toughen Martin up.  If that is true (and I have a strong hunch it is), where was Martin to turn here?  The entire organization appears corrupt.

And, by the way, I think the owner Stephen Ross suspects similar.  There is a reason he asked the NFL to get involved.  His alarm bells probably started ringing when he first heard of these reports and figured an internally prepared report wouldn't be objective as management has their own interests here.

I am fully 100% in Martin's camp here.  I hope he gets to play football again.  If these reports about Incognito being pushed into toughening up Martin by the coaches are true, I hope Martin sues the Dolphins.  And I want to see Ross clean house at the Dolphins organization.  Don't get me started on how they have had to backtrack their public statements over the weekend.  I don't see any way the coach survives this and I would think the GM's job is in jeopardy.