[terry]

I don't see McCaffrey pounding it between the tackles 40 times a game.

Toby Gerhart, Tommy Vardell, Brad Muster, and Stepfan Taylor never carried 40 times in a game, but they were tough enough.

[terry]

I don't see McCaffrey pounding it between the tackles 40 times a game.

Toby Gerhart, Tommy Vardell, Brad Muster, and Stepfan Taylor never carried 40 times in a game, but they were tough enough.

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

[quote author=ThePassionOfTheChryst link=topic=12466.msg124019#msg124019 date=1439264184]
I don't see McCaffrey pounding it between the tackles 40 times a game.

Toby Gerhart, Tommy Vardell, Brad Muster, and Stepfan Taylor never carried 40 times in a game, but they were tough enough.
[/quote]

I wasn't being literal.  However, each one of those backs was considerably heavier than McCaffrey (by roughly 20-30 lbs, with the exception of Taylor).  Again, I don't doubt that Christian is a tough kid.  But I don't feel good about treating a 6'0" 200-lb back like he were a wrecking ball.  That was my point.

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

[quote author=ThePassionOfTheChryst link=topic=12466.msg124019#msg124019 date=1439264184]
I don't see McCaffrey pounding it between the tackles 40 times a game.

Toby Gerhart, Tommy Vardell, Brad Muster, and Stepfan Taylor never carried 40 times in a game, but they were tough enough.
[/quote]

I wasn't being literal.  However, each one of those backs was considerably heavier than McCaffrey (by roughly 20-30 lbs, with the exception of Taylor).  Again, I don't doubt that Christian is a tough kid.  But I don't feel good about treating a 6'0" 200-lb back like he were a wrecking ball.  That was my point.

[BostonCard]

[quote author=ThePassionOfTheChryst link=topic=12466.msg124016#msg124016 date=1439262404]
Even if we assume the weights listed on the roster are correct, light offensive linemen do not preclude power running.  Quick and strong can do the job just fine.

Even if we assume the weights listed on the roster are correct, I am not sure that a line with projected starters at 301 lbs, 321 lbs, 285 lbs, 300 lbs, 300 lbs  - with extra linemen ready to come in at 300 lbs and 300 lbs is exactly characterized as light.

... though I suppose I might be a little suspicious of four guys listed at exactly 300 lbs.

As someone said earlier though, if McCaffrey will indeed be the bellcow I'm not sure how power-oriented the ground game will be. 

Whether a team can effectively operate a power run game depends as much on the strengths of the OL as the RB. In fact, running Power is explicitly about blocking assignments.
Nobody speculating about what kind of running game we should run seems to say anything about the strengths of the OL.
[/quote]

To add to that, Stanford's signature between-the-tackles play "Power" is more dependent on having an offensive guard who can pull effectively and a fullback who can take on a linebacker than on the offensive line having a size advantage.

BC

[BostonCard]

[quote author=ThePassionOfTheChryst link=topic=12466.msg124016#msg124016 date=1439262404]
Even if we assume the weights listed on the roster are correct, light offensive linemen do not preclude power running.  Quick and strong can do the job just fine.

Even if we assume the weights listed on the roster are correct, I am not sure that a line with projected starters at 301 lbs, 321 lbs, 285 lbs, 300 lbs, 300 lbs  - with extra linemen ready to come in at 300 lbs and 300 lbs is exactly characterized as light.

... though I suppose I might be a little suspicious of four guys listed at exactly 300 lbs.

As someone said earlier though, if McCaffrey will indeed be the bellcow I'm not sure how power-oriented the ground game will be. 

Whether a team can effectively operate a power run game depends as much on the strengths of the OL as the RB. In fact, running Power is explicitly about blocking assignments.
Nobody speculating about what kind of running game we should run seems to say anything about the strengths of the OL.
[/quote]

To add to that, Stanford's signature between-the-tackles play "Power" is more dependent on having an offensive guard who can pull effectively and a fullback who can take on a linebacker than on the offensive line having a size advantage.

BC

[terry]

McCaffrey is now 205 pounds, according to this article -- http://www.scout.com/college/stanford/st...amp-begins As a point of comparison, Stepfan Taylor was listed at 208 pounds as a sophomore.

[terry]

McCaffrey is now 205 pounds, according to this article -- http://www.scout.com/college/stanford/st...amp-begins As a point of comparison, Stepfan Taylor was listed at 208 pounds as a sophomore.

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

McCaffrey is now 205 pounds, according to this article -- http://www.scout.com/college/stanford/st...amp-begins As a point of comparison, Stepfan Taylor was listed at 208 pounds as a sophomore.

Taylor is also shorter by a few inches, making him more stout.  He was more comparable in stature to Maurice Drew.

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

McCaffrey is now 205 pounds, according to this article -- http://www.scout.com/college/stanford/st...amp-begins As a point of comparison, Stepfan Taylor was listed at 208 pounds as a sophomore.

Taylor is also shorter by a few inches, making him more stout.  He was more comparable in stature to Maurice Drew.

[OutsiderFan]

OK, everyone has had it out on the topic of the OL's weight, and tangentially, McCaffrey's size. 

What about the DL having nobody north of 280 likely to play much?  I still remain skeptical that a defense can effectively stop the run in a 3-4 scheme, without a 300+ pound "fire hydrant" in the middle.  Phillips has that wrestling background which will certainly make up for some lack of ballast, but it still has to be a concern, doesn't it?  I guess most people feel this way, hence the Fanaika as possible NT speculation.

[OutsiderFan]

OK, everyone has had it out on the topic of the OL's weight, and tangentially, McCaffrey's size. 

What about the DL having nobody north of 280 likely to play much?  I still remain skeptical that a defense can effectively stop the run in a 3-4 scheme, without a 300+ pound "fire hydrant" in the middle.  Phillips has that wrestling background which will certainly make up for some lack of ballast, but it still has to be a concern, doesn't it?  I guess most people feel this way, hence the Fanaika as possible NT speculation.

[dabomb1227]

While agree that having a 300 lb fire hydrant would be ideal, weight and size are not the only determining factors.  Phillips seemed to handle the NT position adequately at around 260 last year.  If he can maintain his leverage and force the OL to commit 2 players to him, not because of size but skill, then not having a 300 lb NT wont matter as much

[dabomb1227]

While agree that having a 300 lb fire hydrant would be ideal, weight and size are not the only determining factors.  Phillips seemed to handle the NT position adequately at around 260 last year.  If he can maintain his leverage and force the OL to commit 2 players to him, not because of size but skill, then not having a 300 lb NT wont matter as much

[Stymie]

The closest comparison we have to CMac vis a vis talent is Darrin Nelson and he was 5' 9"/180lb.  In 2015 terms that pretty much equates to 6' 1"/205, i.e. CMac.  Hopefully, Coach Shaw sees/expects more of CMac than a tackele to tackle runner....

[Stymie]

The closest comparison we have to CMac vis a vis talent is Darrin Nelson and he was 5' 9"/180lb.  In 2015 terms that pretty much equates to 6' 1"/205, i.e. CMac.  Hopefully, Coach Shaw sees/expects more of CMac than a tackele to tackle runner....

[winflop]

I'm not totally sure what the phrase "power running game" means. As opposed to what other kind of running game? All running games depend primarily on the offensive line moving defenders out of the way; even Toby Gerhart and Tommy Vardell couldn't knock down everybody. Two of the best running backs I've ever seen at Stanford, Darrin Nelson and Glyn Milburn were both considerably under 200 pounds. So was Anthony Bookman, who was also very successful.

I'd say our running game depends first on the offensive line playing better than it did last year, and second on our ability to pass (which of course also depends in large part on the offensive line), which exacts a heavy price from defenses that stack eight or nine men in the box. If "power running games" refers to a Nebraska-style offense that passes only eight or nine times a game, well, Stanford has never had that, at least not in the post-Cactus-Jack era.

I usually equate power running with between the tackles plus off-tackle.  Not a lot of wide runs.  Basically the OL is like a steamroller moving north-south rather than east-west as they might on a sweep.

[winflop]

I'm not totally sure what the phrase "power running game" means. As opposed to what other kind of running game? All running games depend primarily on the offensive line moving defenders out of the way; even Toby Gerhart and Tommy Vardell couldn't knock down everybody. Two of the best running backs I've ever seen at Stanford, Darrin Nelson and Glyn Milburn were both considerably under 200 pounds. So was Anthony Bookman, who was also very successful.

I'd say our running game depends first on the offensive line playing better than it did last year, and second on our ability to pass (which of course also depends in large part on the offensive line), which exacts a heavy price from defenses that stack eight or nine men in the box. If "power running games" refers to a Nebraska-style offense that passes only eight or nine times a game, well, Stanford has never had that, at least not in the post-Cactus-Jack era.

I usually equate power running with between the tackles plus off-tackle.  Not a lot of wide runs.  Basically the OL is like a steamroller moving north-south rather than east-west as they might on a sweep.

[washingtonismoney]

Doesn't power running usually equate to man-to-man schemes, rather than zone-run ones?

[washingtonismoney]

Doesn't power running usually equate to man-to-man schemes, rather than zone-run ones?

[CTcard]

Doesn't power running usually equate to man-to-man schemes, rather than zone-run ones?

Well, Power is a more or less specific play featuring man blocking, a play-side double team on the tackle, a pulling guard, and a FB kick-out block run off tackle.

Here is one that worked pretty well - in the heavy set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-tYOceaIM

A little more generally, power-run games are typically based upon man blocking schemes.

The classic alternative to that is a zone-blocking based run game. That roughly fits Oregon - though zone blocking doesn't necessarily mean shot-gun or option.

I think that most people on this board tend to use the term as winflop suggests, referring to runs to the middle of the field - between the tackles or off-tackle.

[CTcard]

Doesn't power running usually equate to man-to-man schemes, rather than zone-run ones?

Well, Power is a more or less specific play featuring man blocking, a play-side double team on the tackle, a pulling guard, and a FB kick-out block run off tackle.

Here is one that worked pretty well - in the heavy set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-tYOceaIM

A little more generally, power-run games are typically based upon man blocking schemes.

The classic alternative to that is a zone-blocking based run game. That roughly fits Oregon - though zone blocking doesn't necessarily mean shot-gun or option.

I think that most people on this board tend to use the term as winflop suggests, referring to runs to the middle of the field - between the tackles or off-tackle.

[teejers1]

Garvin, a successful running game also depends on a little variety.

Forget the overloaded OL (in those "power" formations Stanford plunges a RB into the strong side what? . . . about 95% of the time?); just think about the number of times Stanford lines up in a more standard set (2 WRs, 1 or 2 TEs, and 1 or 2 RBs), and then Hogan takes the snap, stands up for a moment, and then turns back and gives the ball to the RB for a plunge between the tackles.  I'd say that overloaded line running play and the other one constitute about 65-70% of the runs under this regime.  Throw in the Wildcat, and the number probably hits 80%.  That is not particularly impressive . . . at least to this fan. 

Of course, the above figures are just what my gut tells me - I haven't even attempted any play by play breakdown (nor could you, unless you're willing to spend endless hours watching game tapes . . . which I am not).

Bottom line:  use C-Mac like Darrin and Glyn = very good; use C-Mac like Toby or Gaffney = very bad.

[teejers1]

Garvin, a successful running game also depends on a little variety.

Forget the overloaded OL (in those "power" formations Stanford plunges a RB into the strong side what? . . . about 95% of the time?); just think about the number of times Stanford lines up in a more standard set (2 WRs, 1 or 2 TEs, and 1 or 2 RBs), and then Hogan takes the snap, stands up for a moment, and then turns back and gives the ball to the RB for a plunge between the tackles.  I'd say that overloaded line running play and the other one constitute about 65-70% of the runs under this regime.  Throw in the Wildcat, and the number probably hits 80%.  That is not particularly impressive . . . at least to this fan. 

Of course, the above figures are just what my gut tells me - I haven't even attempted any play by play breakdown (nor could you, unless you're willing to spend endless hours watching game tapes . . . which I am not).

Bottom line:  use C-Mac like Darrin and Glyn = very good; use C-Mac like Toby or Gaffney = very bad.

[winflop]

Doesn't power running usually equate to man-to-man schemes, rather than zone-run ones?

Style of running game and blocking scheme are two different things.  You can power run with either a man or zone blocking scheme.  I would argue that most NFL teams use zone blocking much more than man blocking.

[winflop]

Doesn't power running usually equate to man-to-man schemes, rather than zone-run ones?

Style of running game and blocking scheme are two different things.  You can power run with either a man or zone blocking scheme.  I would argue that most NFL teams use zone blocking much more than man blocking.

[PrinceLightfoot]

[Tweet]631278098672029696[/tweet]
[Tweet]631283032125628416[/tweet]
[Tweet]631253562295631872[/tweet]

[PrinceLightfoot]

[Tweet]631278098672029696[/tweet]
[Tweet]631283032125628416[/tweet]
[Tweet]631253562295631872[/tweet]

[washingtonismoney]

That 33 inch vert (if accurate) would put Phillips in solid NFL combine company: http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performer...osition=DL

[washingtonismoney]

That 33 inch vert (if accurate) would put Phillips in solid NFL combine company: http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performer...osition=DL

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

[Tweet]631278098672029696[/tweet]

I hesitate to get too excited about this until we know for sure that it was mostly good weight.  Damn near 40 pounds is an awful lot to put on in a year without a significant portion of it being jiggly.

[ThePassionOfTheChryst]

[Tweet]631278098672029696[/tweet]

I hesitate to get too excited about this until we know for sure that it was mostly good weight.  Damn near 40 pounds is an awful lot to put on in a year without a significant portion of it being jiggly.

[Rally]

[quote author=PrinceLightfoot link=topic=12466.msg124117#msg124117 date=1439351717]
[Tweet]631278098672029696[/tweet]

I hesitate to get too excited about this until we know for sure that it was mostly good weight.  Damn near 40 pounds is an awful lot to put on in a year without a significant portion of it being jiggly.
[/quote]

Is this the next foot injury waiting to happen?

[Rally]

[quote author=PrinceLightfoot link=topic=12466.msg124117#msg124117 date=1439351717]
[Tweet]631278098672029696[/tweet]

I hesitate to get too excited about this until we know for sure that it was mostly good weight.  Damn near 40 pounds is an awful lot to put on in a year without a significant portion of it being jiggly.
[/quote]

Is this the next foot injury waiting to happen?

[CTcard]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=12466.msg124070#msg124070 date=1439322720]
Doesn't power running usually equate to man-to-man schemes, rather than zone-run ones?

Style of running game and blocking scheme are two different things.  You can power run with either a man or zone blocking scheme.  I would argue that most NFL teams use zone blocking much more than man blocking.
[/quote]

While neither this (nor anything else) is definitive, here is a description of the NFL power run game that roughly matches what I was taught.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/20646...nning-game

Different than the zone-based schemes we see on Sundays, the power game is designed to create specific running lanes with lead blockers at the point of attack that work to the second level of the defense.

[CTcard]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=12466.msg124070#msg124070 date=1439322720]
Doesn't power running usually equate to man-to-man schemes, rather than zone-run ones?

Style of running game and blocking scheme are two different things.  You can power run with either a man or zone blocking scheme.  I would argue that most NFL teams use zone blocking much more than man blocking.
[/quote]

While neither this (nor anything else) is definitive, here is a description of the NFL power run game that roughly matches what I was taught.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/20646...nning-game

Different than the zone-based schemes we see on Sundays, the power game is designed to create specific running lanes with lead blockers at the point of attack that work to the second level of the defense.

[OutsiderFan]

If Phillips really is 286, he can basically be called 290, and with pads he probably is :)  If you do buy into the notion that a guy with a wrestling background, under the tutelage of Turley and his "move the opponent where he doesn't want to be" S&C approach, makes up for lack of weight, 286 probably is enough to be a NT and anchor a stout run defense.  Moreover, we need to remind ourselves that even at 248, Phillips held his own at NT as a True Frosh.

A DL 2-deep of Phillips, Shittu, Thomas, Scarlett, Watkins, and Lohn does seem like it could be adequate if Phillips can in fact produce on a level like David Parry, Henry Anderson (who played NT in addition to DE), Terrence Stephens, and Sione Fua. 

[OutsiderFan]

If Phillips really is 286, he can basically be called 290, and with pads he probably is :)  If you do buy into the notion that a guy with a wrestling background, under the tutelage of Turley and his "move the opponent where he doesn't want to be" S&C approach, makes up for lack of weight, 286 probably is enough to be a NT and anchor a stout run defense.  Moreover, we need to remind ourselves that even at 248, Phillips held his own at NT as a True Frosh.

A DL 2-deep of Phillips, Shittu, Thomas, Scarlett, Watkins, and Lohn does seem like it could be adequate if Phillips can in fact produce on a level like David Parry, Henry Anderson (who played NT in addition to DE), Terrence Stephens, and Sione Fua. 

[Hulk01]

The classic definition of Power is as a scheme: It deploys a fullback, tight end, and pulling guard.

If one play is defined as power, it's the running back behind those two lead blockers--the fullback and pulling guard--with their blocking assignments dictated by the angle taken by the defender to the outside of the gap being attacked.

[Hulk01]

The classic definition of Power is as a scheme: It deploys a fullback, tight end, and pulling guard.

If one play is defined as power, it's the running back behind those two lead blockers--the fullback and pulling guard--with their blocking assignments dictated by the angle taken by the defender to the outside of the gap being attacked.